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Poppa- you hit it right on the nail.
I will make Tea or Coffee for the Midwife.
I have had several homebirths and they don’t have to be messy. Sometimes medications are needed which doctors and a lot of midwives carry with them. You don’t need an IV, shots work just as well. What people don’t understand is a lot of issues don’t “happen” when a women is in her home station. We are so programmed by the system and media that there is no other safe alternative, so women are afraid of birthing at home. I am afraid of hospitals. It is so much more in line with Torah values to give birth at home, in a modest fashion without all the world to see. I have had complications at home, B’H all my children lived. My mother-in-law wasn’t so lucky when they killed her baby in a hospital, and apologized saying mistakes happen. My aunt has permanent brain damage induced by her physician, in a hospital – avoidable if the physician was trained properly. Life and death are in Hashem’s hands but women should do their due diligence, don’t just do what everyone else is doing.
kol hakavod to coffeeadict and frumladygit for attempting to bring some light to this subject. I am also a homebirth mom, more than once, and would never opt for a hospital birth again if I had a choice. I also have tremendous respect for the midwives I have worked with, both for their extensive knowledge and compassion. One thing you are not mentioning here, though, is the fact that the OBs have women convinced that it would be irresponsible, endangering their baby etc. if they choose to follow the natural routes. As a result, women are very afraid of their births and only feel secure when putting themselves in the doctors’ hands. This is a very difficult barrier to educating women about homebirth, and addressing the massive ignorance. It reminds me of the chiropractic arena. For many years chiropractors were denigrated by traditional doctors, and the public was warned against using them, for fear of the harm that could be done. As more patients began using them anyway when traditional medicine did not heal; chiropractors gained recognition, and are now even covered by most insurance policies. But the medical community is a defensive bunch, they don’t want anyone telling them there is an alternative.
And BTW, when I last had a home birth I learned that my midwives had a very active practice in the chassidish community.
frumladygit – I wonder if the case of Tracey H. was an (accidental, of course) overdose or allergic reaction from the pitocin or epidural. She had not had either in her previous 2 deliveries, and she said about this one, “After they started the pitocin, it felt a little weird”…
What I don’t get is, wasn’t she on a monitor? They had me hooked up to all that when I had pitocin and epidurals. Shouldn’t they have at least caught her oxygen level, even if her heart hadn’t stopped beating yet?
And why at 7 weeks premature were they giving her pitocin? Look at the date… Dec. 24… her water had broken so the baby needed to come out, and they (Drs.) wanted to be out of there for their holiday… just saying…
“But the medical community is a defensive bunch, they don’t want anyone telling them there is an alternative.”
I was actually gonna say the same thing but the reverse. So much of what frumladygit wrote is based on articles, not facts. The pitocin info, epidural info for starters. I know a lady who almost died from being pregnant! So do we stop being pregnant? And my great grandmother had to take her mother to the mikvah because there were no shomrim, should I ask my mother to come with me too? Do something because you believe in it and let others do the same. What is the point in bringing up one story to disprove ten others? You don’t like the medical field so don’t use it. And I say the same to hospital birth people, there is a responsible doctor on premises at home births, just like when a midwife does a hospital birth, and all your talk about lack of safety is inaccurate . Advocate for what you believe in without putting the others down! I delivered 7 babies in a hospital with midwives and had one emergency c-section and I believe that most of you who had bad hospital experiences should try a different doctor. Our hospitals are nothing like the ones you describe, even with the OBs. Not all frum people are personified by the idiot who yelled at you in the grocery store, and not all home births/hospital births are like the one you lived through or heard about from your friend.
Hospital births do not necessarily mean high intervention or unnecessary medical procedures. I had all of my babies in hospitals (several different ones) and never had an epidural or any other medications. I did have a fetal monitor on and I believe that helped us to avoid unnecessary intervention since one of my babies had decelerations in his heart rate and we were able to keep a close eye on it and watch to make sure he recovered each time. I would never opt for a home birth, as one of my children survived only because there was a neonatologist waiting there who revived him and got him breathing within a minute or so of his birth. These things aren’t always available at home.
homebirths should hopefully be attended by a qualified midwife or doctor. No one in their right mind would attempt a planned breech delivery at home. If hospital births were so safe then the statistics should be there to back it up, which they are not. The countries with the best outcomes for newborns have predominantly home-birth based operations. Yes a lot of women need to give birth in hospitals for safety reasons. Don’t forget most really wealthy women, even i n this country, still hire a private doctor to give birth at home. Yes the doctors have oxygen and know how to revive infants, you don’t need a hospital for that. The ignorance is pervasive, it is so unbelievable. People need to take responsibility for their own health and not blame their doctor/or Hashem for that matter for their carelessness and ignorance. Of course that may mean that people have to change their diets as well and stop saying it is meant to be that I got diabetes, heart disease, cancer when most are preventable.
SJS –
Hospitals are not these sterile zones we think of them. There are sick people there. Your home is generally safer.I never had this misconception, maybe you did. Neither does anyone I know think this. Where do you get your “facts” from?
Health, there is a high corrolation between elderly in hospitals or long term care facilities developing increased colonization of c. diff, causing extreme diahrea and often death. But feel free to say I am blaming this on medical negligence.Maybe it has to do with that a lot of these pts. are on antibiotics? Maybe the antibiotics are necessary for the pts.? It’s usually the doctors that practice primary care, eg. pediatricians, internists, etc., who prescribe unnecessary antibiotics.
Since you feel the way you do about medical personnel, esp. that we are always negligent; Feel Free not to use us. You can deliver at home; if ch’vs you or a family member get sick, you can self-treat or go to someone who practices alternative medicine. But don’t ever go to a regular doctor or an emergency room!
the only reason for not deleting the above post is because it is such a classical example of a twisted response to another poster.
note how he puts words into sjs mouth that she never said, implied, or even hinted at (such as that medical personnel are always negligent)
note how his angry response is far out of proportion to sjs calm friendly post.
disclaimer: it should be noted that in general i am in disagreement with sj on almost every issue, as she well knows.
but please lets try to argue with reason and mentchlikeit here
Mod -80 –
on the other hand there are some terrible unnecessary things that go on with hospital births. for now the best answer is a compromise. a birthing center that is truly understanding of the process, a midwife directed birth, or an ob who has some sense,...I know you’re a physician and I’m just a student, but what area are you trained in? It sounds like you’re in peds. Doing my OB rotation, not that long ago, I tend to differ on your opinion. Most unnecessary, and I mean Most, is caused by the patient, not the doctor. We live in a society of immediate satisfaction/gratification. There are patients who tell the OB -schedule my C-section on Thurs. because on Wed. I have my hairdresser appt. and on Fri. nite I have to be at this party and so on. These cases of unnecessary procedures have nothing to do with the provider; maybe once upon a time things were different. My mother told me when she delivered, the standard procedure was you put the mother to sleep and when she woke up -you already had the kid.
Kol hakavod, mod 80. I wish you would do this with some hashkafic posts.
Perhaps the question should be “Who decides if it will be a home birth, husband or wife?”
Health,
Please don’t get so worked up about this. There are definite benefits to delivering in a hospital, as well as definite benefits to homebirths. Neither one is an absolute negative or positive. Everyone should do their own research and do what’s good for them.
Are there more chances of a non-required, physician-preferred c/s in a hospital (leading to other possible complications)? Yes
Are there more chances of cross-infection in a hospital? Yes
Are there more chances of having available emergency care in a hospital if necessary, such as an emergency c/s in an OR, resuscitation equipment, qualified medical personnel? Yes
So please don’t bash either one. People can make their own well thought out, researched decisions.
well said nurse
still i would strongly recommend against home birth.
what is ideal is to have an enlightened OB backing up a good midwife in an enlightened birthing center/hospital
Earlier posters mentioned “low risk..” Can I ask how a person knows?? A person is low risk til something happens that causes them to be high risk! Why wait for something to happen.. I am the youngest and my mother almost didn’t make it through ‘my’ labor.. After the other kids she was fine!! Go figure!!
Indeed, they did knock my mother out and drag me out with forceps.
My grandmother a”h fell at home but never made it to rehab because she developed an infection in the hospital from a bedsore so big it exposed her tailbone. Every time we said we wanted to talk to a specific doctor, she got very agitated and said, no, no, I don’t want to cause any trouble. An aunt who has worked in a nursing home for decades said, “once (bedsores) get that big, they don’t recover” and she was right. My grandmother died there because of neglect (and possibly abuse at the hands of one doctor). I lived hundreds of miles away at the time and was crushed that family kept most of this from me until the end.
My son was in the NICU for days because of my OB’s physical abuse during the c-section. Years later, my son has developmental issues, and of course I can’t prove that the OB caused them, but I’ll never know for sure that he didn’t, either.
Health, I don’t hold you personally responsible for these things and I don’t think you should feel responsible for defending the whole health care profession. Iy”H you will be a fine (whatever it is you’re studying for). It can be said that there are irresponsible patients and incompetent health care providers, but they are not the majority by any stretch and we’d like to think that they do the best they can with the information they have. Each patient is different with fears that influence the decisions that they make. The health care provider’s challenge is to learn their profession cold but then be able to apply their knowledge to each patient’s different situation. I doubt I’m saying anything you don’t know, but maybe someone else will read this and gain from it.
the.nurse –
So please don't bash either one. People can make their own well thought out, researched decisions.You are typical of someone who comes in the middle, but doesn’t read all the posts. I never said people shouldn’t have home births. If you would have read my first post, my beef was that people complain about what the medical personnel do for them and they still continue using them. I think this is hypocrisy, since there are alternatives, like midwives!
Health,
Then I apologize. It seemed to me that you were getting riled up at those who had anything negative to say about hospitals/doctors (which included those who favored homebirths due to bad experiences with hospitals/doctors).
Mod-80, thank you, I really appreciate that. And while we disagree, I generally don’t mind disagreeing because you are well spoken, not rude and have a good thought process.
Health, you may think I’m anti-medicine. I am not. My step-father is a doctor, my sister is a nurse. I’m a big fan of the medical community.
That being said, there are problems on both sides of the coin. No choice is right for every person or for every birth. I think getting homebirth information out is important so people know what the options are and can choose accordingly.
wanderingchana- The definition of a pt. with bedsore(s) is that the pt. was neglected. My only question is was your grandmother bedridden or not. If she was, perhaps she had the ulcer at home?
An aunt who has worked in a nursing home for decades said, "once (bedsores) get that big, they don't recover" and she was rightActually, she’s wrong; nowadays we have ways to treat these. Nursing homes that have pt’s with bedsores are bad because they are negligent in pt. care. Try to avoid putting your loved ones in these types.
Health: she was not bedridden until she fell and was admitted to the hospital.
She was also being transported every two weeks to a wound care clinic. It cost hundreds of dollars more to transport her on a stretcher than a wheelchair, so until the end she being transported in a wheelchair. I don’t know why they couldn’t provide this care in the hospital.
I don’t know why my relatives made the decisions they did, and I did not learn of most of this until the end. The proceeds of the sale of her house ended up all going to the state anyway to reimburse for her care, so they should have just made her as comfortable as possible while she was alive. Hindsight being 20/20 and all… Better to suffer here than in the World to Come, so Baruch Hashem she is not suffering anymore…
wanderingchana –
I don't know why they couldn't provide this care in the hospital.She probably was in a Hick hospital, where they don’t have a lot of basics.
It cost hundreds of dollars more to transport her on a stretcher than a wheelchair, so until the end she being transported in a wheelchair.Since the hospital had to pick up the tab of her transport, they were doing it as cheap as possible.
It is not difficult to find a doctor who will respect your desired level of medical intervention. If you don’t trust your doctor’s decision making, or think the doctor may be making decisions based on their own convenience, you are using the wrong doctor!!! But that’s not a reason to turn away from the whole field of obstetrics. The wonderful doctor who delivered my children was ethical and responsible, as well as being a top-notch doctor. She is known to work very hard to avoid c-sections unless absolutely medically necessary. I even know of a case where one of her patients was already prepped for an emergency c-section based on certain test results and she reordered the tests at the last minute just to make sure she couldn’t wait any longer. Based on the new results she decided they had a bit more time to wait, and she pushed off the surgery. The woman ended up giving birth during that time. As far as the reference to how women gave birth in the 1800’s, that seems to be simply silly. The infant and maternal mortality and complication rates in the 1800’s were astonishing — it was almost routine! Of course there are numerous reasons for that, but the bottom line is childbirth was extremely different then, as was life in general, so I don’t see what that has to do with a decision today to have a hospital vs home delivery.
Bottom line, IMHO, I feel very strongly that I would never have a home delivery for the simple reason that although home delivery may be perfectly fine most of the time, what if your delivery involves unexpected complications? As mentioned above, unexpected heavy bleeding by the mother or a baby not breathing properly can be quickly dealt with in a hospital, but not at home — why would I want to take that chance?
frumladygit — BTW, I have a very close relative who nearly died of placenta accreta, and it is very scary. However you are wrong that it cannot be detected prenatally. Nowadays it would almost always be noticed in prenatal sonograms (my relative’s situation was over 20 years ago). But there are many other things that may go wrong or cause unexpected bleeding.
The wonderful doctor who delivered my children was ethical and responsible, as well as being a top-notch doctor. She is known to work very hard to avoid c-sections unless absolutely medically necessary.I would say most doctors are like this!
“Conclusion: Less medical intervention during planned home birth is associated with a tripling of the neonatal mortality rate.”
http://www.ajog.org/article/S0002-9378%2810%2900671-X/abstract
Here’s the bottom line. They crunched numbers from seven studies:
Neonatal mortality rate:
Planned home births Planned hospital births
32/16,500 (0.20) 32/33,302 (0.09) All
23/15,633 (0.15) 14/31,999 (0.04) Nonanomalous
Statistically, .15 (one and one half percent) is three+ times higher than .04 (four tenths of a percent).
“Conclusion: Less medical intervention during planned home birth is associated with a tripling of the neonatal mortality rate.”
So maybe they are saying that that more medical intervention during planned homebirth is better?
Their conclusion is vague and unclear but serves the purposes of the trade organization’s publication.
They have also distorted studies on VBAC in the past. I’m not convinced.
this is such an interesting conversation! I haven’t read every single post in detail but obviously giving birth in America is very different from in England! The main reason why I wouldn’t give birth at home is because my husband is very against it (I think for the mess!). On a side point, I only had a doctor in the room with my first child. For the others only a midwife or two! I gave birth to my last two children leaning over a bed with no pain relief! I get the impression that this would never happen or be allowed to happen in the US. I think Sheila Kitzinger has a lot more work to do on your side of the pond!
ryphque- We in the US have midwife options; there are people here who give birth underwater. But what we don’t need is people who don’t opt to use midwives and then complain about their medical care! They should move to countries like the UK who have socialized medicine, perhaps there they will be happier with their medical care.
frumladygit – I will repeat my point as many times as necessary -as long as people like you don’t get the point. Since patients have options and are not forced to get medical care, if you don’t like the fact that OB’s offer when needed, procedures, please use a midwife. You obvoiusly are taking a risk if a complication occurs, but those who want to use them are willing to take this risk!
These posts are so long I don’t even know if they are being read but for some reason I feel compelled to bring up one tiny little point. The stats of mortality in home vs. hospital births has a ridiculous premise if you consider the fact that ONLY LOW RISK PREGNANCIES END IN HOME BIRTH and ALL the high risk pregnancies are added to the mortality stats of the hospital births! (just an annoying point I needed to get off my chest)
GMT good point, just like the fact that the infant mortality rate in the USA is higher then in Europe (7/1,000 in the US v 6/1,000 in Europe) doesent mean they have better health care, it means they have a higher abortion rate due to the fact that they dont have proper services for disabled kids.
“I would say most doctors are like this!”
I agree.
Guard my toungue: not so. the fact is that the parameters of high risk are very different for in hospital vs. at home with midwife. That is, what may be considered high risk in an OB hospital birth (for example, age of mother, “overdue”, etc) is considered within the realm of normal by experienced midwives.
EH – then let me re-word my point. Babies that R”L are not expected to make it through birth, are already in distress, are showing no vital signs etc are all sent to the hospital to be delivered, and that skews the stats. And btw, neither overdue nor age put you in high risk. And neither was VBAC a high risk issue. With all three I was still considered low risk to the OB and used a hospital midwife.
I have the feeling that several of you are in the UK where the system is different (correct me if I’m wrong). In the U.S., most midwives are in practice with OBs, who are supportive of these midwives, otherwise they would not employ them. The midwives who would attend a planned homebirth are not the type who would even want to work with OBs. What sometimes happens is, a woman is planning on using a homebirth midwife, who isn’t even welcome in the hospital, and so the mother also has an OB who she goes to for monthly checkups.
One day the OB gets a phone call that oops!, the woman gave birth at home, because she was just laboring her heart out at home and suddenly things “were going too fast and there wasn’t time to get to the hospital”. But if things seem to be heading south at home, they will transfer to the hospital the OB practices at, with the homebirth midwife along as a “friend” or “doula”. (Which she would certainly be qualified to do anyway) The mother doesn’t really care if “her” OB is the one on call, because she is only there because she needs the services of the hospital.
The philosophy is like, you don’t need a plastic surgeon when a bandaid will do.
I have an aunt who gave birth at home recently and almost lost the child, they told her that she can never give birth at home again. this was not in the US it was in Canada.
i used to work with a home birth md, i was a student. i almost went into practice with him. i was well versed in all their arguments. although there are advantages and disadvanges of both, i would never recommend home birth to anyone.
i read that in your previous posts. i heard though that because the women are calmer (in their own homes vs a hospital) the birth is easier for some of them
sure
there are many advantages to home birth
but the real and not rare dangers far outweigh them
i forgot i posted here before
i sure hope i dont contradict myself
LOL imagine if you would have. being that u r in the “high” position that you are in you can just delete the posts that you dont like anymore. but back then you also said they should not give birth at home
Actually giving birth is more like passing a watermelon through a keyhole, Popa.
Actually giving birth is more like passing a watermelon through a keyhole, Popa.
Hmm. It’s nice to see the things I wrote 5 months ago.
If you have a baby the size of a watermelon, you really should be having a C-Section.
Besides, it’s a natural process, animals do it and just keep running.
The reason animal babies are up and running is so they won’t be eaten by predetors.
“Besides, it’s a natural process, animals do it and just keep running. “
Easy for you to say, isn’t it? I have often said that if it were the men who bore the children each family would have one child. There would be no risk of overpopulation anywhere in the world. Countries like China would never have to pass a “one child” law. Men are wooses – as a former ER nurse, I could provide you with countless stories to back up my “woos” statement.
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