October 10, 2013 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #610850YentaParticipant
So what’s the bottom line?
The Gemara says “kofin oso ad sheomar rotzeh ani”.
Do we now erase this?October 10, 2013 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #981397batsevenParticipant
Yenta- kishmecha kein huOctober 10, 2013 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #981398lebidik yankelParticipant
No such gemarah. Its only bes din that has a din of kofin oso ad sheomer rotzeh ani.October 10, 2013 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #981399
no, it was perfectly ligit what he didOctober 10, 2013 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #981400
he had a bais dinOctober 10, 2013 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #981401
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When the law states that a man should divorce his
wife, and yet he refuses, a Jewish court- at all times
and in all places – beats him until he says “Rotze
Ani” (I want to) and he writes the get and it isOctober 10, 2013 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #981402
It was a sham “beis din”-for-hire that just issued a pro forma “ruling” allowing themselves to beat and torture the husband with electrical shocks and rods into submission in issuing a “get”. The husband was never told of the so-called beis din and never invited to attend. A real beis din cannot convene a session without both parties present. This was a sham money-operation charging upwards of $60,000 per incident. Any “get” that ever came out of these type of situations was a “get me’usa” and the wife remained an eishes ish married to her husband. If she remarried she is committing znus and any children mamzeirim.October 10, 2013 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #981403
“kofin oso ad sheomar rotzeh ani” is only applicable when a valid beis din considers all sides of the case and determines a “get” is obligatory. A “get” is not obligatory unless the husband wronged his wife during their marriage in a way that causes him to be obligated to divorce. Otherwise he has no obligation to give a “get” even if his wife wants one, and beis din can’t and won’t force him to give one. And any coercion to force him results in a get me’usa. That’s the whole idea behind a get me’usa.October 10, 2013 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #981404Oh Shreck!Participant
Guaranteed to be a HOTTIE (until mods close it!).
My take? Depends who you ask.
Remember, someone in this “parsha” is already in an unfortunate situation. Compounded by so many factors. (and well meaning “helpers”) So there are always at least five sides to every incident. Think about it.October 10, 2013 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #981405
adam12: What you say is almost entirely correct. If the Beis Din determines that the marriage is over, then he is M’chuyav to give a Get, even if the reason for the marriage ending is that she says Ma’us Alay or that they fight too much.October 10, 2013 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #981406golferParticipant
Oh Shreck, you think it’s a “HOTTIE” ??
It’s a tragedy.
A tragedy for all of Klal Yisroel that the secular media is reporting this and it’s all out in the open.
A tragedy that grave sins were committed on all sides.
A tragedy if we even consider what adam posted above.
A tragedy for the men & women involved on both sides.
A tragedy for the bachurim attending a Yeshiva where they had to see arrests being made.
A tragedy for every single one of us that was unfortunate enough to read about this or hear about this.
All those lovely “Mi ke’amcha Yisrael” articles– this is not the kind of stuff they consider a possibility among “unzere”.October 10, 2013 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #981407heretohelpMember
No way. In my opinion, aside from common sense, it is illegitimate at least because of dina di malchusa as well as chillul Hashem.
But I’m just some guy with an internet connection, not a Posek.October 10, 2013 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #981408
Sam2: Rav Eliashev in kovetz teshuvos 174 says ma’os alei is an insufficient basis to force a get. He bases his psak on Shut HaRashba # 135 which is based on Ramban and also S”A EH 77:2.October 10, 2013 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #981409YITZCHOK2Participant
Hopefully this will force our Rabbanim to do something about husbands not giving gittin! This story will shed light on how so called Rabbanim help husbands extort money ! Or maybe they will just say see the problem with the internet now yiddin know how bad our system works when it comes to gittin. They should go after the so called Rabbanim who help husbands extort money from the family of agunot just to give a get!October 11, 2013 12:08 am at 12:08 am #981410
Adam: That is a minority opinion. But you are right, I shouldn’t have stated so definitively. It definitely is a matter of debate among the Poskim.October 11, 2013 12:16 am at 12:16 am #981411popupMember
We need to fix this system…feel for all those involved it’s horrible that this is broadcasted over the news but maybe we’ll start getting the get system fixed…might start encouraging pre-nuptials,
Truth is each situation is different and there’s prob. not one rule.October 11, 2013 12:59 am at 12:59 am #981412rebdonielMember
Any time Jews who keep shabbos or kosher get arrested for doing things that are against secular law, it should serve as a warning for us to embrace the message of ethical conduct that is incumbent upon us and stress what those obligations are.October 11, 2013 1:01 am at 1:01 am #981413bh18Participant
I am twice divorced..both gittin through rabbi Mendel Epstein….the first had me wait 3 and half years for a get and the second gave it to me immediately. Rabbi Epstein asked for my ex(es) and I to pay a total of $500 for the get to pay for the sofer and for his time. I did not have my share of the fee and he did not push or pressure me to pay. He also did not do anything to my first ex to give the get quicker!! Also, Rabbi Epstein, or as I call him, the big man, and his wonderful wife continue to support me emotionallyOctober 11, 2013 1:25 am at 1:25 am #981414LITOVAMember
I can’t believe such rishus like this went on!!and for so long!
why didnt anyone stop them earlier??Congrats to the FBI and nypd on a job well done. Tremendous chillul Hashem.THis really saddens me how yidden can act this way.Their torah observance means nothing if they have no middos!I still cant get over it and these people are Rabbis???Nothing is hidden from Hashem he sees and knows all and everyone ends up getting what they deserve.October 11, 2013 2:26 am at 2:26 am #981415pixelateMember
sam2- what does Ma’us Alay mean? for justification to force apart a marriage which may be ameliorated with counsel.
But If the Halacha of the rabbis conduct is sound, what this is turns into a Kiddush Hashem!
the talk show hosts need not galvanize the masses over sharia law, look no further than their back yard.
I wonder what they do in Israel, where the bet din has court status.,?
as far as i’m comcerned Epstien, Walmark, these guys are heroes. RockStars
The biggest tragedy of it all was Mr. Gestetner, a self proclaimed ”spokesman for Rockland county” poking his head into interviews to be broadcasted nationally. calling the actions ‘disgusting…’ and more. um who r u? do u know an iota of halacha to even open your mounth? what an arrogant arrogant person
1) find the car key (from the bunch)
2) get back in your black tinted suburban, turn off the lights
3) and keep ur mouth shut
just crazyOctober 11, 2013 2:45 am at 2:45 am #981416TheGoqParticipant
Sadly there are some in our community who break the laws of the land willingly and without remorse of any kind they think the laws of the medina are not important and that they are above these laws, this is a huge cause of antisemitism against the frum community WE are the cause because we dont hold those accountable and we look the other way when they break the laws.
Back to the subject at hand this is so disgusting! yes these husbands are awful human beings but NO ONE deserves physical torture, those who carry out the torture for the reason of a get today will carry out torture for another reason tomorrow it must be stopped.October 11, 2013 2:51 am at 2:51 am #981417
Pixelate: No. These “Rabbis” are thugs who beat up husbands for money. The ones who are Mekadesh Shem Shamayim are those who beat up husbands when the courts have determined that there is no other recourse to get a woman her Get. Then it’s Makin Oso Ad SheYomar Rotzeh Ani. And it doesn’t cost upwards of 60K to do that.October 11, 2013 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #981418YentaParticipant
Once again, the agudah threw frum jews under the bus.
The rabbi who kidnaps, and uses cattle prods is a “rabbi of caliber”.
Maybe he is, I don’t know him, but not in the eyes of the world. And that’s why they threw us under the bus.
I am sick and tired of them speaking in our names.October 11, 2013 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #981419
Worst of it all, once again a frum snitch made this news happen.
I am not condoning their behavior. But someone tried to get off their own legal problems, and did this.October 11, 2013 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #981420pixelateMember
sam2- And it doesn’t cost upwards of 60K to do that.
Let us see how this plays out and what exactly are the charges and defense before we besmirch these rabbis’ stellar character based on preliminary media reports
and to be frank, whatever the issue is, i wouldn’t bank my money on the media, and surely not the fbi.
the only thing that concerns us at this point is betzedek tishpot et amitecha.October 11, 2013 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #981421farrockgrandmaParticipant
I understand the desperation, but isn’t our complete lack of unity the real underlying cause? In a real Torah community, where we apply every other sanction, both in the synagogue, the community, and the business world, there would be a very small number of cases where we have any reason to consider resorting to harsher measures.October 11, 2013 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #981422apushatayidParticipant
I wonder when someone will quote the entire statement of Rabbi Zweibel and not just the 2 sentences attributed to him by lohud.com, and the jewish rag sites.October 11, 2013 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #981423TheReaderParticipant
How can a bais din convene on such a matter without the husband, the ba’al din himself, being there or being asked his side of the matter?October 11, 2013 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #981424gavra_at_workParticipant
1: I agree with Joe as far as the Halacha is concerned. At the very least, Bais Din means by definition that they have attempted to see both sides in court. It would be very difficult to get a Halachic Kofen.
2: There is still a Din of Dan L’Kaf Zechus.October 11, 2013 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #981425HaLeiViParticipant
TheReader, and if he refuses to show up then Beis Din goes to sleep?October 11, 2013 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #981426
HaLeiVi: Then he’s a M’sareiv and you can beat him for that. But that’s not what happened here anyway.October 11, 2013 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #981427ultimaterockMember
Haleivi: In this case there was no real husband and yet they were ready to beat the husband without ever having even attempted to ask him for his side. They just made a kangaroo court (by the same people who took her gelt) to say its okay to beat him.October 11, 2013 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #981428gavra_at_workParticipant
TheReader, and if he refuses to show up then Beis Din goes to sleep?
What does it mean “refuse to show up”? Did the Bais Din go to him personally and ask?October 11, 2013 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #981429
to everybody saying that this is horrible, this is not hobbible this is the halacha!
the goq:”yes these husbands are awful human beings but NO ONE deserves physical torture”-yes they do, if thats what halacha says then yes they do< halacha is king
LITOVA:”I can’t believe such rishus like this went on!!and for so long!”- again its not rishus, its halacha
pixelate:”as far as i’m comcerned Epstien, Walmark, these guys are heroes. RockStars”-completely agree, %100, i heard 2nd hand of cases where the man doesn’t want to give a get and it’s horrible, im glad such zaddikim stand up for these agunosOctober 11, 2013 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #981430fkellyMember
Except its illegal. And there’s also Halacha to follow the law of the land.October 11, 2013 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #981431LITOVAMember
showjoe-Im sorry this is not halacha. THey did not do anything according to halacha.A beis din needs two sides the husband was not even there. THey never even bothered to hear his side of the story.Torturing someone like that is inhuman and illegal.Exactly what the halachos are as far as forcing a get I do not know, but I know that what they did is obviously not what Hashem wants.And charging such enormous fees, they are obviously not doing this lishem shamayim.Any REAL rabbi would not allow this to happen.I am horrified and ashamed that people in my community did this.October 11, 2013 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #981432
Which Monsey story is better, the treif meat, or the cattle prodding?October 11, 2013 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #981433golferParticipant
achosid, Gitteh Kasheh.
Does make one wonder if there’s something in the water out there.October 11, 2013 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #981434writersoulParticipant
What, and nothing ever happens in Brooklyn and Lakewood?
Monsey is literally the most boring place on the planet- I guess it’s just that when something does happen, it’s a doozy.October 11, 2013 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #981435
Maybe they were roasting the treif meat with a cattle prod?October 13, 2013 5:13 am at 5:13 am #981436
I hear more arrests are imminent.
Prod.October 13, 2013 11:59 am at 11:59 am #981438The little I knowParticipant
Unfortunately, today’s batei din are more of a circus than ever before in our history. It is commonplace for dayanim to deal with one side only, and to issue a psak that imposes on the other, without having ever made contact with the other baal din or a representative. I know this from first hand experience. Once this occurs, the dayanim themselves have distinguished themselves as low lifes, who do not follow the Torah dictate, and who use the “Torah” to carry out their will which is against it.
This case points to many wrongs, but the one I highlighted here exists in countless cases that lack the drama to get into the media. As long as we continue to respect dayanim who violate basic halachos, we will keep getting incidents in which the fairness the Torah demands is nowhere to be found.October 15, 2013 2:31 am at 2:31 am #981439147Participant
The most urgent order of business is to ensure that all children are in regular contact with their Fathers, and are regularly being educated by their father as per the Toroh’s dictum of “veShinantom leVonecho veDibarto Bom”.
Everything must be done to ensure that not 1 single child on the face of this earth is ever deprived of time with their father. period!October 15, 2013 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #981440apushatayidParticipant
The sad reality is that the men use the get as leverage against the women and the women in turn use the kids as leverage against the men. all sides run to the beis din they feel will be most sympathetic to their cause, and not necessarily because it is a beis din with a reputation for expertise in halacha (this is true in monetary cases as well). the concept of toanim further escalates the situation into a circus where nobody is interested in the halacha, just sticking it to the other party and drags the case on for as long as they can, to further stick it to the other party. as a tzibbur we made our bed, now we have to lay in it, as filthy as it is.October 15, 2013 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #981441JayMatt19Participant
Joseph is correct here (despite the usage of multiple names)
Any beis din which will issue a ruling to beat up a non-existent husband to get him to give a get in a non-existent marriage (as the beis din “allegedly” did in the sting), has some serious judgement issues.October 15, 2013 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #981442
147: And what about abusive fathers?October 15, 2013 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #981443147Participant
Sam2: What about abusive mothers? & what about abusive women’s groups?October 15, 2013 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #981444
147: What about them? Because abusive mothers exist we should let children stay with abusive fathers? If a parent is abusive, they don’t deserve their kid, whether it’s the mother or the father (or both). How does your response in any way answer my point that there are sometimes where a child should absolutely not be with his father?October 20, 2013 4:16 am at 4:16 am #981445iknoMember
147- heaven should help those that cant be with their father, because he is abusive, should never have to be with him even one minute in their life. you must be saying this statement out of shelteredness. unfortunately today’s crazy court system has no clue how to care about the children involved, when it comes to custody. read up on all the stories that happen when an abusive father or mother have visitation…. how, many of them kill, molest, and damage their own kids..October 20, 2013 4:36 am at 4:36 am #981446Tzvi GoldsteinParticipant
We need to push legislation in NY and NJ to enforce the giving of “gitten” after a divorce.
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