learning from an artscroll

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  • #1753059

    bove basreh
    Participant

    why cant bnei torah use an artscroll gemara , in bekius seder then they could finish more mesechtos faster

    #1753139

    Grey matter
    Participant

    Bec in order to understand Torah you must work on it. Also otherwise you’ll never develop skills to read a Gemara.

    #1753141

    lakewhut
    Participant

    It’s a crutch

    #1753142

    too geshmak
    Participant

    Theres nothing wrong with it but I’ll spell out 2 reasons (there may be many more but this is what I could think of right now). First of all, an Artscroll is not appropriate for anyone currently learning in a yeshiva. The yeshiva years are designed to teach boys the skill of “knowing how to learn”. Yeshiva is not meant to be a trade school for rabbis, it’s meant for bochurim to learn from a rebbi a derech halimud and acquire the skills to learn the rest of their lives. This is why the yeshivos focus on certain mesechtos which are conducive to developing these skills. Just as you wouldnt let first graders learning arithmetic use a calculator, anyone learning any skill is better off figuring it out on their own. Secondly, even for those not in yeshiva, our mesora is that Torah is nikneh with ameilus. This doesn’t mean one cant be amul with an artscroll, certainly you can, but for many people, true ameilus comes with working out the gemara on their own.

    #1753140

    Grey matter
    Participant

    Bec in order to understand Torah you must work on it. Also otherwise you’ll never develop skills to read a Gemara.

    #1753180

    The Shady Charedi
    Participant

    Because…
    “If you’re gonna’ only eat food that was chewed up for you by other people and spit out on a plate so that you can eat it…
    it will be very easy to eat, but it won’t be very tasty.”
    -Rabbi Dovid Orlofsky
    from his shiur on How to Love Learning
    https://www.rabbiorlofsky.com/podcast/42

    #1753193

    akuperma
    Participant

    Traduttore, traditore

    While Art Scroll (in English) is useful for looking up words in context, the very act of translating Hebrew thoroughly distorts it. ArtScroll’s commentary is very useful, but if you can’t read the original text you are missing a lot. English and Hebrew are about as unrelated as any two languages with radically different grammar. The Hebrew artscroll is an interest commentary, but might be more affordable if published without the gemara.

    #1753205

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    If the idea was to make it a struggle to learn, the gemorah would have been written in Hebrew, not Aramaic. Aramaic was the everyday spoken language of the people, as is English in the US

    #1753230

    akuperma
    Participant

    Aramaic and Hebrew are closely related, similar to French and Spanish, or German and Yiddish. Hebrew is as different from English, as English is from Chinese or Navaho or Zulu.

    If you are serious about learning Torah, learn Hebrew.

    #1753260

    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    Obviously people have to learn how to learn. And they can’t have stuff spoonfed to them. But at some point, amount of Torah learned has to outweigh the ameilus aspect. We wouldn’t say that we shouldn’t learn beis yosef, rather we have to look up all the gemoros and individual rishonim that he quotes instead, would we?

    #1753297

    DovidBT
    Participant

    If the idea was to make it a struggle to learn, the gemorah would have been written in Hebrew, not Aramaic. Aramaic was the everyday spoken language of the people, as is English in the US

    I think the idea is to study the teachings of the Tannaim, Amoraim and later commentators. Those teachings are best represented in a language in which they were fluent.

    I would study in Aramaic or Hebrew if I could, but for now, I have to use English. Otherwise I’d have to spend a week on each sentence.

    #1753327

    rational
    Participant

    The Artscroll Talmud has entered almost every frum home and is used by almost everyone. The result is a deterioration in the quality and depth of understanding in all areas of Torah study, from Mishna and Gemara, through Poskim and Shutim. I doubt there is a way back.

    #1753531

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Before Artscroll, the Gemara was a closed book to me.

    Since using it, it has helped me to become familiar with the terminology and methods used in the Gemara. The more I used it, the more I learned how to read the Gemara without it. Since using it, the Gemara has opened up to me to the point where I can open a non-Artscroll Gemara and figure out, in most cases, what is going on.

    The result is a deterioration in the quality and depth of understanding in all areas of Torah study, from Mishna and Gemara, through Poskim and Shutim. I doubt there is a way back.

    I guess it was terribly selfish of me to contribute to the communal deterioration of learning in all areas of Torah just for the sake of my own learning. The classic case of a mitzvah haba’ah b’aveirah.

    The Wolf

    #1753547

    GRATEFULBLAC
    Participant

    I have just bought the new Artscroll Tosafos English sefer on Makkos – a tremendous piece of work and it thoroughly explains each Tosafos with backgrounds, footnotes, summaries and plenty of detail.
    What do others think of it.

    Also many of the comments above of learning how to learn in Yeshiva etc. The Yeshivos only cover the most lomdish masechtas, Bobbah Kamma, Yevamos etc. To be able to learn the more technical masechtas like Shabbos and Eruvin, Zavochin, Chullin, Kodshim, Taharos,that are not taught in Yeshivah is not possible without something like the Artscroll or Mesivtah.

    #1753597

    rational
    Participant

    I am going to violate my rule of not responding on a personal level, as I have deep respect and admiration for the Wolf.

    Dear Wolf,
    With the utmost respect, I maintain that you are the exception who proves the rule. I don’t doubt there are many like you. However, I have seen many daf yomis, individual learners, group learners, possibly hundreds of them. All good and even pious people. The vast majority have a solid yeshiva education from first grade through the great litvishe roshei yeshiva. Almost (not all, but almost all) have slowly or quickly took the lazy road to advance in a given mesechta.
    The varied interpretations of the gemara, the rashis, the tosfot, and the rishonim are passed through the fine artscroll filter. The giver of the daf yomi barely prepares, what for? It’s all explained and can be given over on the fly. When I see a person learning from an artscroll gemara, he is almost surely not even looking at the side of the tzurat hadaf. These have been my observations since the first editions came out, and it has become ever prevalent.

    So, I apologize if I offended you, it was unintentional. But for the generation that grew up without it, the artscroll has been the Waze of learning. One need not know where one is, one just needs to follow the prescribed instructions. I am of the opinion that on the grand scale, serious Torah learning has suffered as a result.

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