February 1, 2023 9:38 am at 9:38 am #2161525DaMosheParticipant
Can we pause for a moment to recognize Joseph’s hero, Levi Aron? After all, he might have been nervous about walking between 2 women in Boro Park. He was “massered” on by the wife of a frum Brooklyn politician. How dare she do such a thing!
(Before I get jumped on, this post is sarcastic, aimed purely at Joseph for trying to defend people touching kids who aren’t their own, and attacking a mother for protecting her child.)February 1, 2023 9:47 am at 9:47 am #2161530simcha613Participant
Ujm- I agree that it seems like that Shomrim may have jumped the gun. But the mother was genuinely nervous as all it takes is six seconds for an abduction to take place. and she asked the experts. They advised her to call the cops. I don’t think she did anything wrong unless she misrepresented the situation. I’m not sure why Shomrim thought calling the police was the right call here… I’m definitely open to accusing them of making a serious mistake, but it’s hard for me to say that with any kind of confidence without knowing their reasoning.
Is it the issue of mesira? Depends on whether the gedarim of mesira extends to a reasonably just society. I’m not convinced it does… But whether it’s the formally issur of mesira or not, a false accusation is a serious thing.February 1, 2023 11:22 am at 11:22 am #2161536
That’s nice but I wasn’t referring to you. Perhaps you should join Shomrim and set them straight.February 1, 2023 11:23 am at 11:23 am #2161537ubiquitinParticipant
The post is what can be learnt from THIS scenario
“Huh? The child was already safe and sound with the mother before she called Shomrim and the police.”
Exactly thus my bringing up a what if is silly.
And in this case the accused abuser was already set free. Thus your bringing up the “what if..” is equally silly. IT was a crowded room there were witnesses. The system worked.
Again, does it always work? perhaps not. But THIS is a case where it did. This post is lessons learnt from THIS case. Not the collected musings of the artist formerly known as Joseph. THIS case is one that highlights going to the police first is the safest approach. Again is there another case that shows the opposite ? Probably but not this one
And what’s this business about you deciding not to ask a Rov since “the Rav didnt care”? You do things, in general, without asking since you don’t trust Rabbonim?”
If I don’t have a question of course! Why not?February 1, 2023 11:29 am at 11:29 am #2161541
Besalel: Whether someone, or even if everyone, is offended, it doesn’t change what the Kitzur says. You can argue that the poskim disagree ( if you can point out one that does), but you can’t say that since people would be insulted the halacha changes.February 1, 2023 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #2161599
eddiee: i already pointed out that most poskim disagree. furthermore, you are incorrect, we find that the sensibilities of the oilam at large is taken into account when decided hanhagos, as was with (1) the gzeira against eating meat after the beis hamikdash was destroyed or (2) the gzeira prohibiting oil of nuchrim, these gzeiros were batteled by the hamon am.February 1, 2023 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #2161605
besalel: So what she’ll be offended? We don’t change any halachos or hanhagos or minhagim because someone or anyone is offended by them. Did you really think that you could take a poll of women and if Gallup came back saying 53% are offended we scratch out that Halacha out and consider it to be archaic and thereby repealed?
That all said, you’re incorrect in assuming they’ll collectively be offended.
Getting back to original point, and the crux of this issue, I’m glad you agree the video completely exonerates the innocent Tzadik. But, Besalel, what if the Shul lacked a video camera in their hallway (as with most charged criminal cases lack a video of the incident); do you realize then that this innocent Tzadik would right now likely be languishing in prison pending trial on felony charges of attempting to kidnap as child, as the mother accused him of and the police originally charged him with?February 1, 2023 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #2161654
ujm: i agree with you that this man did nothing wrong and I have every reason to believe he is a complete tzaddik. i have a lot of problem with our justice system, believe me, but I strongly believe that in this case, even without a camera, he would have been exonerated quickly and granted bail. But I am not sure. Unfortunately, mistakes happen and often times the consequence is not fair at all. I am not sure we can create a perfect system that is mistake free.
As for the hanhaga, I want to be clear: the tznius issue is obviously real and is halacha, in fact a deoriasa. but the tznius issue is a problem whether you are passing between women, behind women, on the side of women. it is specifically with regard to the witchcraft/impure issue of passing between two women, palm trees, pigs, dogs – which is not a halacha – that certainly the hamon am’s sensitives need to be accounted for. in other words, i am very machmir on both ve’ahatva lereicha kamocha as it applies to offended women in this case and the issues of avoda zara/emunos tfeilos that apply here as well.February 1, 2023 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #2161660
The chasid lucked-out this time that there was a camera. Since that’s not always the case, the chasid has hopefully learned that it’s perfectly acceptable to carry an object while walking between women. Most importantly, the chasid has been schooled never to touch children that aren’t his own. The chasid has black marks on his police record and reputation to remind him of this vital lesson.February 1, 2023 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #2161689smerelParticipant
>>>if she thought an attempted kidnapper was on the loose, even if her own son was safe, it certainly is a pikuach nefesh situation.
Falsely reporting someone for kidnapping is also causing a pikuach nefesh situation. Just imagine how this story would have ended if there didn’t happen to have been a video camera in the shul.February 1, 2023 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #2161695
Besalel: Please tell me at least 1 posek, by name, who who said that this Halacha has changed due to changes in societal norms and sensitivities.February 2, 2023 7:48 am at 7:48 am #2161849
Eddie > My question to AAQ is, why is MY action obviously inappropriate, because YOU reported it?
If you do something that causes adverse effects in the universe, just stop doing it. Safety achieved
by a further step – investigate all cases where you got close to a problem and learn from that. Feds investigate all “near collisions”. Best predictor of car accidents is number of times a person brakes abruptly… But if, to the opposite, you focus on finding blame in others, there is no hope for improving your midos.
Here is an example to illustrate: I was coming to an intersection and thought that I can enter it safely. Then, while I was closing on it, I saw a car going extremely fast, so at the last moment I stopped to let it go. When I moved forward, I saw the fast driver stopped in the other lane. I also stopped, thinking that he needs to change lanes. Turns out, he stopped his mad rush only to wait for me to show me a finger for daring to come so close to his path – and then took off again…
Was he mad? probably. I still made a note to myself to evaluate what is happening before coming too close to the intersections.February 2, 2023 7:49 am at 7:49 am #2161850
eddie, Gemora says that ketuba was first kept as cash, then as money deposit, and then as a mortgage, like now.
Rabbis declared shemen akum asur and rescinded in a year when people did not follow.February 2, 2023 7:52 am at 7:52 am #2161852
eddiee > you can’t say that since people would be insulted the halacha changes.
halochos ben adam l’havero definitely depend on the havero. Saying something that insults or offends the person depends, in part, if the person is insulted. You can’t tell him that you would not be insulted and, thus, you can say it. It is his sensitivity that matters. And sensitivities change between people, also between cultures, and between centuries.
I heard about 2 identical stories of a bochur saying out of turn “there is no tachanun today”. In pre-WW2 Europe, the gabbay “kindly” asked everyone to stay to the side and invited the bochur to the front row as the “new Rebbe” to teach him a lesson. In Israel, R Ouerbach whispered to the gabbay “skip the tachanun” …February 2, 2023 9:34 am at 9:34 am #2161933
@Hardofi, No thanks, I don’t join lynch mobsFebruary 2, 2023 10:41 am at 10:41 am #2161949
AAQ: All that you have told me is that since you are not allowed to insult someone, sensitivites count. Well, to me that is pretty obvious,: if the person won’t be insulted, you can say it. The other example was 2 different methods of chinuch. Pick your approach. (I am not condoning all approaches to chinuch, just that this was the justification.)
With regard to your reply to my question of which posek changed this halacha, you didn’t answer the question. Also, the examples that you brought are not relevant. With regard to Kesubah, the takanas chachamim was that there should be a Kesubah, not how the Kesubah should be handled. That was based on custom. With regard to Shemen Akum, it is still assur. they were only matir it for that year.February 2, 2023 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #2162086CentristParticipant
Yes, gadolhadorah puts “measuring” in quotes because he does not believe it applies. He also has put traditional in quotes because he can’t accept that anyone would have pure intentions. In fact, going through his posts, he is diametrically opposed to everything clearly good and supports everything clearly bad.
Thank you ujm for bringing this up, although I generally think we should err on the side of caution, i think the only BIG mistake was made by the reporting of the story before the facts were clear.(small mistake done by the man,slightly bigger by the woman, slightly bigger by shomrim)February 2, 2023 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #2162138
eddiie, right, this is 2 methods of chinuch – in different times, what was appropriate in one, not appropriate in another because people now generally have different sensibilities.
Kesubah – the takana was first for husbands to have ketuba money in the house. When rabbis so that this leads to quick divorces – “get your money and get out of here”, they started changing that until settling on mortgage on all real estate.February 2, 2023 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #2162150
Centrist > i think the only BIG mistake was made by the reporting of the story before the facts were clear.(small mistake done by the man,slightly bigger by the woman, slightly bigger by shomrim)
There is just one person in this story who could have behaved like a mench – and NONE of that would happen.
He could have read a sefer or engage someone in divrei Torah and let ladies finish their conversation in dignity. Why going between any two people who are talking, whatever gender or combination thereof they are? And bother someone’s kid for the whole six seconds. Imagine now, 100 people need to leave and the kid is being walked back & forth for an hour!?
It all started with his gaava that him getting on time to watch the football game was more important than the divrei chesed and Torah that the ladies were having.February 2, 2023 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #2162153guteyidParticipant
@Hadofi, why so bitter? Is there something personal that you want to share with the world?February 3, 2023 6:45 am at 6:45 am #2162188
@AAQ ” the divrei chesed and Torah ”
You slipped up and wrote a CH, please be consistent.February 3, 2023 11:44 am at 11:44 am #2162236
Eddiee: you wrote: With regard to Shemen Akum, it is still assur. they were only matir it for that year.
You are wrong.
perhaps youre confusing the fact that r’ yehuda first batled it for his dor and then his grandson batled it completely?February 3, 2023 11:50 am at 11:50 am #2162238Reb EliezerParticipant
I say excuse me when I want to pass.February 5, 2023 1:35 am at 1:35 am #2162458
besslel > Eddiee: you wrote: With regard to Shemen Akum, it is still assur. they were only matir it for that year.
who are you to attack people’s chumros and burn down someone’s parnosa of selling shemen yisruel. But if you are on the sugya – could you please clarify the turn of events and what was the reasoning and any commentary on that so that we can analyze how halocha changes (or not).February 5, 2023 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #2162622yechiellParticipant
tzaddik? and how do you know he is a tzaddik?
please define tzaddikFebruary 5, 2023 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #2162662
Joseph’s definition requires three items; beard, payos and a long black coat. That’s why he insists that his Lev Tahor buddies are all “tzadikim”.February 6, 2023 1:27 am at 1:27 am #2162706
Besalel: It is a major principle both in Torah/Halacha as well at in secular law that in case of doubt we err on the side of innocence. Better to not punish a guilty if the risk, otherwise, is we might punish an innocent man. Innocent until proven guilty.
Furthermore, without there having been a video of the incident, it’s highly likely the innocent Tzadik would be rotting in prison for a year pending trial in such a he-said/she-said trial, considering how the American court system currently treats that.
And another point. How many women do you think are cognizant of the Kitzur or the reason the Kitzur gives or the other examples of whom not to walk between? Close to none. So this concern of them being offended is highly misplaced. (And that’s in addition to the earlier point that even had they known most very frum women still wouldn’t be offended. And the additional point that even if any would be it isn’t a factor.)February 6, 2023 11:42 am at 11:42 am #2162865☕️coffee addictParticipant
“I say excuse me when I want to pass.“
In your example if one lady moved so you can pass which gives you a space to walk between them would you pass, if not then what?February 6, 2023 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2162945jackkParticipant
As printed in flatbush jewish journal – week of parsha beshalach 5783
A COMMUNAL APOLOGY
AS A COMMUNITY THAT WAS NICHSHAL IN THE AVEIRAH OF LOSHON HARAH AND MOTZEI SHEM RAH, AND WERE LACKING IN BEING DAN L’KAF ZECHUS, WE WOULD LIKE TO ASK MECHILA FROM THE FAMILY THAT SUFFERED PAIN AND ANXIETY FROM THE FALSE ALLEGATIONS THAT WERE MADE PUBLICLY OVER VARIOUS MEDIA.
IN THE ZECHUS OF ASKING MECHILAH, IT WILL SURELY HASTEN THE GEULAH AND PROTECT KLAL YISRAEL.
MAY IT BE A BLESSING TO THE FAMILY THAT WAS FALSELY ACCUSED AND A MEILITZ TOV FOR THEM L’OLMEI AD.
RABBI ELIEZER GINSBERG
FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE COMMUNITY.February 6, 2023 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #2162973
Does anyone find it surprising that HaGaon HaRav Eliezer Ginsburg shlit”a agrees with my entire raison d’etere of this thread?February 6, 2023 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #2162983
@Jackk, bh a nice start, but the average guy walking down the street on Coney Island Ave was not involved in besmirching him, I would like to see a public apology from the mother and Shomrim who were the direct causes of all of this.February 6, 2023 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #2163063
Not surprising at all. It’s quite hilarious that the Rosh Kollel of Mir took out an apology ad on “behalf of Flatbush” to the chasid who learns in his yeshiva. Totally meaningless, an early Purim joke. I wonder who actually paid for it?February 7, 2023 1:25 am at 1:25 am #2163156
@hardofi, the real purim joke will be when he sues the hysterical mother, the lynch mob shomrim and the clueless NYPD for millions.February 7, 2023 8:03 am at 8:03 am #2163204
I don’t think I saw a response to my suggestion – simply wait them out, while learning. Maybe google for kulos in this predicament.
Another option – direct the women to where the kiddush is.February 7, 2023 10:30 am at 10:30 am #2163325
The chasid’s clueless behavior which resulted in charges on his police record ensures that such a lawsuit would go absolutely nowhere. The camera may have saved him from a worse fate but it shows he touched the child and the court would have no sympathy for the foolish way he chose to implement halacha.February 7, 2023 10:31 am at 10:31 am #2163328☕️coffee addictParticipant
His chavrusa was probably waiting for him
He probably had a kosher phone without internet capabilityFebruary 7, 2023 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #2163361
@Hadofi, all changes minus two were so far dismissed, the remaining two changes will be thrown out because they both require intent.
Change #1 He or she knowingly acts in a manner likely to be injurious to the physical, mental or moral welfare of a child less than seventeen years old.
Change #2 A person restricts another’s movements intentionally when his or her conscious objective or purpose is to restrict that person’s movements.
He will win a multi million dollar lawsuit.February 7, 2023 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #2163362GadolhadorahParticipant
You can keep “litigating” the facts of this case BUT the reality is that in today’s world such behavior incurs a considerable risk of being thrown in jail in the near term and longer term reputational defamation since the media will have moved on and typically don’t look back to update a report. If you are a “tzadik gamur”, have lots of time on your hands and don’t mind taxpayer funded housing, than insist on the righteousness of your ways and don’t bother thinking about how they may be misinterpreted.February 7, 2023 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #2163441
The multi-million dollar lawsuit trial would last five minutes:
Q: “Why did you touch the child?”
A: “I wanted to pass between two women in a manner allowed by Jewish Law”
Q: “Couldn’t you have done so holding a cell phone or some other object?”
A: “Yes, but I decided to make up my own stringency and use someone else’s kid instead”
The chasid might then also have to deal with the consequences of bringing a frivolous lawsuit in addition to the two remaining charges on his police record and a tanked reputation.February 7, 2023 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #2163523
@Hadofi, Being the criminal case will be dismissed due to lack of intent.
The civil case with consist of the following:
Q. [for the hysterical mother]
Did you ask questions or just jumped to conclusions?
A I Just jumped to conclusions.
Q [for the shomrim members]
Did you bother to view footage or just pursued a lynch mob?
A. We just organized a lynch mob.
Result? multi million verdictFebruary 7, 2023 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #2163589
There will be no lawsuit since the mother did nothing wrong by calling for help. NYPD and Shomrim did nothing wrong by reacting quickly to the situation when called. The chasid was the only one who did anything wrong by foolishly touching someone else’s child so he’s the only one who was charged.
As clueless as the chasid is abut the world, your fantastical legal proceeding indicates that you’re even more so. You’re not displaying much common sense.February 7, 2023 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #2163595
hevrusa could also get some savlonus, and they could learn on the phone. And what kind of tzaduk does not have a mishna with him or can’t learn by heart?! I think there is an attitude problem.March 27, 2023 11:23 am at 11:23 am #2177351
FYI all charges have been dropped against himMarch 27, 2023 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #2177405
Does the “condemn all Jews’ crowd of Dofi, Dorah, Amil, et al wish to comment?
Or, perhaps, they were hoping that once the news cycle ended with reports of false accusations of criminal behavior — but the complete exoneration of an innocent and upright citizen is never reported by the same hate based “mainstream news media”, that we’d all forget about their immediate condemnations.March 27, 2023 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #2177396
Hopefully, the chasid has learned the very important lesson of not touching other people’s children for any reason.March 27, 2023 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #2177418March 27, 2023 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #2177517ubiquitinParticipant
“@GH, now the lawsuits start”
Chas veshalom! how can you suggest such a thing ?
Are you suggesting this Erliche tzadik is anything but!!??
(and anyway he isn’t wining anything It is hard to imagine a jury faulting a mother who called authorities when she says she was concerned for her child. The only ones a bit at blame are the media cites though agian hard to show what damages they caused, generaly libel in the US is hard to win)March 27, 2023 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #2177554March 27, 2023 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #2177539
@ubiquitn, try NYPD, Shomroim and the mother, obviously NYPD and Shomrim have the deepest pockets, its call false arrest and there are plenty of grounds here, and the main target is NYPD.March 27, 2023 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #2177569n0mesorahParticipant
To think the NYPD would lose this case, is the most naive take of all. Qualified immunity is almost always applied.
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