Let's make YCT teshuvas, by popa

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  • #603384
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I want to make YCT type teshuvas, because it is so much more fun. You get to be so much more creative. I will start with one, please feel free to add your own. (No halachic knowledge necessary, apparently.)

    Shaila: Since women should now duchen, which women are supposed to duchen?

    Teshuva: The most pashut pshat would be that it should be Ochlei Teruma, which would generally mean unmarried daughters of kohanim, and wives of kohanim. However, this is most unsatisfactory, since it is highly patriarchal and merely reinforces patriarchal norms.

    An alternative option would be that both the sons of daughters of kohanim should duchen, as well as their sons and daughters. This is also no good, because statistically we can say that every jew alive descended from kohanim if we are using both patrilineal and matrilineal descent.

    The best option therefore, is that a female kohen is a kohen for life, and passes on her kehuna to only her daughters. Thus, there is a patriarchal lineage and a matriarchal lineage.

    The question then, is who does it start from. It cannot start from Aharon, since he was a man. Ideally, you might think it would start from Miriam; as Miriam said, “gam banu diber”. However, we don’t know who is descended from Miriam. Also, we know that Miriam did not serve in the Mishkan. So, I pasken that the female kehuna should start from Rabba Sarah Hurwitz.

    #1218243
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: B’shulei Hamichtav:

    We know that a Kinyan Kaspo can eat T’rumah. However, Kinyan Kaspo is clearly an outdated concept as no one can morally claim an ability to own slaves nowadays. However, we cannot take away the right from those who were once able to eat T’rumah. Therefore, anyone who was ever a slave to a Kohen can eat T’rumah even after he or she has been freed. And since a person must feed his kids, they pass the ability to eat T’rumah to their descendants. Also, since slavery is a deplorable act which the Torah could never actually endorse, we must state that anyone who was ever a slave is retroactively freed. Thus, if anyone can prove that an ancestor of theirs (by patrilineal descent for a man and matrilineal descent for a woman) was once owned by a Kohen, he or she may eat T’rumah as well.

    #1218244
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Good tayna. But they still cannot duchen, right?

    #1218245
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: Eh. Even we hold (maybe) that anyone can go up to the Duchan if they want. I feel like that’s a Gemara somewhere.

    #1218246
    wanderingchana
    Participant

    But what if a giyores, whose ancestors were never slaves, wants to eat Turduchen?

    #1218247
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Sam2, if your friends tell you to Duchen, then you can, or even should Duchen.

    #1218248
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Where did minyan gal go? She once posted that she’s a bas-kohein and therefore she gets the first aliya and doesn’t go to cemeteries.

    #1218249
    gregaaron
    Member

    @YW-42:

    If I recall correctly, Minyan Gal lives in Winnipeg and therefore is forced to hibernate nine months a year. We’ll be hearing from her once the ice melts in June.

    #1218250
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    This reminds me of the joke about the conservative Committee on Jewish Laws and Standards (the one that has to have cantors as auxillary members because they at least know how to read the luach). They wanted (so the joke goes) to remove the verse ?????? ???? ???? because there are no slaves anymore. Then they decided to put it back in because without it they wouldn’t have a springboard text for the Shabbos sermon.

    #1218251
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    That reminds me that I recently read Saul Lieberman’s teshuva on female rabbis, where he says it is assur to call a woman “rabbi” even ??? ?????. I dunno that we pasken like Saul Lieberman, but would that mean it is actually assur to call a female conservative rabbi “rabbi whatever” when you meet her socially?

    teshuva: No, it is not assur. Saul Lieberman learned in real yeshivas and is therefore passul from all psak.

    #1218252
    derszoger
    Member

    Lieberman isn’t the only Conservative “rabbi” that learnt in a real yeshiva. Some of the same people who started OU started the JTS.

    #1218253
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    It’s like the reform temple that decided they would be shomer Shabbos. They closed for Shabbos.

    #1218254
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Yet he was still reportedly capable of reading Hebrew which most non-baalei kriah in “real yeshivos” can’t do until they’re 20+.

    #1218255

    They probably never fought for duchening because they would have to cover themselves with a talis anyway, so whats the point.

    #1218256
    teaare
    Member

    Shaila: Is it permitted to serve non-kosher food at synagogue functions?

    Teshuvah: Obviously, to do so would seem to be a problem, because historically the Bible has been interpreted by rabbis to mean that one may not eat or serve others non-kosher food. However, since I gather from your question that you desire to so, and presumably you believe that there would be spiritual benefit from doing so, and “her ways are ways of pleasantness”, I will not be remiss in seeking out a dispensation for you.

    As is well known, the Torah obligates one who has received religious guidance from the Great Court to follow it, even if it has ruled that left is right and right is left. Thus, if you rule that it is permitted, your synagogue employees are religiously bound to follow your ruling. While it may be true that the Great Court does not function today, that may only be because the broader Jewish population would not follow its guidance, since they recognize that contemporary rabbis are out of touch with modern realities. However, since, as I can gather from your question, you are in touch with modern realities, I have no doubt that if the general population knew of your piety and scholarship, they would accept you quickly. And while you alone may only be one rabbi, today we have a large community of at least 70 YCT rabbis who effectively function as the Great Court, teaching all Israel about that which is permitted and prohibited, the sacred and profane.

    At the next YCT conference, we will vote to rule that it is permitted to serve non-kosher food, which is no prohibition, since we are ruling on the theoretical level. As the Talmud says, ancient scholars had hundreds of arguments to permit the rodents. After we rule, those prohibitions will disappear. And since another questioner has inquired concerning the prohibitions of eating food on the Day of Atonement and sorcery, we will abolish those as well. And any later scholar who will seek to disagree with our rulings will be a Zaken Mamre.

    Upon further analysis, it would seem that such a conference is unnecessary, since the CCAR has already done so in its Pittsburgh Platform.

    #1218257
    rebdoniel
    Member

    I think this thread ought to be removed. It is divisive and does nothing to serve the cause of achdus to cast aspersions and be motzei shem ra on an Orthodox yeshiva. Furthermore, it is awful to see people being motzei shem ra on the Grush Lieberman zt”l. He was the leading talmudist of his dor, all the yeshivos have Tosefta Kifshuta, and his commitment to mitzvot and learning was unparalleled. He was rosh yeshiva of Machon Harry Fischel and a true gadol be torah.

    Welcome back rebdoniel! Long time no see.

    #1218258
    gregaaron
    Member

    “I think this thread ought to be removed. It is divisive and does nothing to serve the cause of achdus to cast aspersions and be motzei shem ra on an Orthodox yeshiva. “

    Well, looks like you got your wish – I don’t see the names of any Orthodox yeshivos on this page, so obviously the mods deleted those posts.

    #1218259
    shmoel
    Member

    YCT is not frum. It has the same status as a theological school from the reform or conservative religions.

    #1218260
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    That sounds just like 42 — oh, that’s Machon Harry Potter.

    #1218261
    Sam2
    Participant

    Rebdoniel: I don’t know anything about Saul Lieberman so I can’t say anything, but everyone (not YCT) holds that YCT is not an Orthodox Yeshivah. Which, I think, is the point of this thread.

    #1218262
    derszoger
    Member

    Mr. Lieberman was a conservative “rabbi” and professor at the conservative JTS.

    #1218263
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    everyone (not YCT) holds that YCT is not an Orthodox Yeshivah

    I am not so sure about that (though I guess that just makes me not orthodox).

    #1218264
    teaare
    Member

    Speaking lashon hora is only prohibited when speaking out against sinners, not Orthodox Yeshivos like YCT or the leading Talmudist of the last dor. See Chofetz Chaim Hil. LH, part 4.

    #1218265
    Sam2
    Participant

    Yitay: Read some of the stuff Avi Weiss and Dov Linzer have published and/or said recently. It’s very hard to call them Orthodox.

    #1218266
    Sam2
    Participant

    Ders: Do you have an actual reason to say that or you’ll just call anyone with any connecttion to JTS “Conservative” without actually looking at them? From what I saw on Wikipedia and a quick Google search, he was pretty Frum. And I find it hard to believe that everyone would use his Tosefta Kipshuta if he was actually Conservative.

    #1218267
    midwesterner
    Participant

    I didn’t know Lieberman was the leading Talmudist of the last generation. I always thought it was Louie Ginsberg.

    Yochanan Kohen Gadol was meshemash as Kohen Gadol for 80 years and then became a tzeduki.

    Elisha ben Avuya was one of the greatest talmudists of his time too. So was Shabsai Tzvi.

    #1218268
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Sam – I know what they say.

    #1218269
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I assumed rebdoniel was posting satirically like the rest of us.

    #1218270
    avhaben
    Participant

    What Orthodox yeshiva uses Lieberman’s Tosefta Kipshuta?

    #1218271
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Lieberman was certainly a talmid chochom before he defected. I am uncomfortable using that term after he defected. (It connotes to me learning for Hashem).

    Lieberman was almost certainly personally a shomer torah umitzvos, as were many of the original conservative leadership. Moreover, he probably believed in G-d, in torah m’sinai, and probably in a torah sh’baal peh m’sinai.

    Nevertheless, he was also almost certainly also an apikores after his defection.

    I could be wrong about this; it really doesn’t mean anything to me one way or the other.

    #1218272
    teaare
    Member

    More likely a memuar l’teiavon. I will note that unlike some “Orthodox” people today, he opposed women rabbis. As far as I know, though, he did not object to more serious violations of halachah.

    #1218273
    msseeker
    Member

    Keep’em coming, this is fun!

    #1218274
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I was curious about this today so I’ve been reading up on it. I can’t find a single bit of Apikorsus that Lieberman published.

    #1218275
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    sam: I dunno. I am not well read in saul lieberman, and I didn’t really know he existed until I read marc shapiro’s book last year.

    #1218276
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think Lieberman was personally frum in every way. His aveira was joining JTS, giving them legitimacy. His motive was simply to have a nice income so that he could sit and learn in peace.

    #1218277
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So I actually have a relative who was a big cheese in JTS 30-50 years ago (or so). And this relative was shomer torah umitzvos. Moreover, a professor who studied in JTS and knew him, told me with awe that my relative was “a ?????”.

    But, was my relative not an apikores? He was willing to tell other people that they could be mechallel shabbos, without any intellectually honest reasoning. Someone who is kofer in the transmission of the gemara as the authoritative torah sh’baal peh, is a kofer. I would dare say this relative must have been a kofer.

    #1218278
    rebdoniel
    Member

    I consider myself a talmid of Rabbi Weiss, the Grush Lieberman, Hakham Sassoon, Hakham Faur, Rabbi David Novak, Rabbi Marc Angel, Rabbi Yuter, and others, and identify with the YCT/UTJ hashkafa. I am pained to see many slandering those who devoted and continue to devote themselves to shmirat torah u’mitzvot and limmud hatorah. Talmidim of the Grush Lieberman have left the Conservative Movement 30 years ago, and are Orthodox in their practice and belief. Just check out the UTJ website and UTJ Viewpoints, authored by Rabbi Yuter, who has semicha from YU’s Rabbi Moshe Tendler. YCT advocates a brand of Orthodoxy actually falling to the left of UTJ, but regardless, I am in agreement with Open Orthodoxy’s efforts to create an inclusive, just Orthodoxy open to converts, women, social justice, pluralism, and academic and critical methodologies, practices and approaches with firm halakhic footing (Eduyyot 2:2 reads, “Lo ra’inu eino ra’ayah.”) Who gets to define what is Orthodox and what is not? Instead of attacking those with a different mehalech, we should unite around our common observance of shabbat, kashrut, taharat hamishpacha, and other mitzvot, and strive to advance torah observance in a non-politicized manner. Yagdil torah v’ yadir.

    #1218279
    rebdoniel
    Member

    I would also add that Professor Marc Shapiro has done extensive research on R’ Lieberman and his relation to the Orthodox community. The Lubavitcher Rebbe was asked by ProFessor Chaim Dimitrovsky, zt”l, whether he should take a position at JTS, and the Rebbe answered he should, as long as R’ Lieberman was there. Rav Soloveitchik worked closely with Rav Lieberman towards creating a joint bet din that would deal with gittin and other issues. His rebbetzin was a daughter of Rav Meir Bar Ilan and she was principal of the Shulamith School. To cast aspersions on him is to be mevazeh a talmid chacham.

    #1218280
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The term Orthodox means traditional and conventional. Your description doesn’t fit the definition. Call yourself another name if you don’t like Conservative. Perhaps Progressive — oh, it’s taken. How about ‘Next Generationers’, or Technicallists, Halachistin, Femidox, Securdox…

    #1218281
    Logician
    Participant

    Or, rebdoniel, how about this one:

    “Who gets to define what is Orthodox and what is not? Instead of attacking those with a different mehalech, we should unite around our common status as children of Jewish mothers, and strive to advance Jewish pride in a non-halachic manner. Am Yisrael Chai.

    Go ahead, call “Orthodoxy” whatever you want. I’ll be frum.

    Yes, I know I haven’t responded logically to anything you’ve said. Just venting, thanks.

    #1218282
    Logician
    Participant

    PS – I love casting asperations on a “Talmid Chochom” who is “megaleh ponim b’torah”. I consider it a Kiddush Hashem.

    Am not referring to anyone in particular. Just saying.

    #1218283
    dd
    Participant

    You all make me sick.

    Even if YCT is not your derech (or mine), the motzei shem ra is horrible. If you believe that they are not Orthodox, then it is still horrible middos for you to talk this way.

    Frankly, if being part of the “Yeshiva World” means saying motzei shem ra against people you disagree with, then I would never want to be part of that world.

    #1218284
    Sam2
    Participant

    Logician: So do I. But it seems like, from everything I’ve read in the past few days, that Rabbi Lieberman doesn’t fall under that category.

    #1218285
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    The term Orthodox means traditional and conventional.

    No, that is what the term orthodox means. The term Orthodox, however, means keeping in line with traditional rabbinic Judaism.

    #1218286
    rebdoniel
    Member

    The term “Orthodox” is a term actually pejoratively applied to us by the Reformers. Rabbi Gifter, zatsal, eschewed its use, because it is an external label thrust upon us (it is Greek for “correct belief,” which is a misnomer, because Judaism is a religion more concerned with actions than beliefs. We are not, le havdil, Catholics, who profess a creed, as the yud gimmel ikkarei haemunah are not ironclad and indeed, there are varying shitot. See the Sefer HaIkkarim for an alternate formula of Jewish belief and Professor Shapiro’s “The Limits of Orthodox Theology” for further exploration). The ikkar is to be halachic, to be bound by normative halachic hermeneutics, based first and foremost in the Gemara and the Shulchan Aruch, and to be shomer mitzvot, be ameil batorah, and to believe in Torah min ha shamayim.

    #1218287
    rebdoniel
    Member

    And can you provide examples of how R’ Lieberman (I assume you’re referring to him) is “megaleh panim be torah shelo k’halacha”?

    #1218288
    teaare
    Member

    dd: Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

    (Not that I believe that you are part of the Yeshiva World now.)

    #1218289
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Quoting the Sefer Haikkarim is a big mistake. He doesn’t argue on any Ikkar of the Rambam, Chas Veshalom. He argues on the number, because he held that they are either included in the first three or should not be considered an Ikkar, even if one must believe it.

    You can’t disagree that trying to bend Judaism in a new direction does not follow the attitude of our earlier Rebbes. You might not care about that, but that should draw the line if it is a new movement or not. If it is a new movement, it should get a new name.

    I cannot argue about individual Shitos because I never cared enough to read up on them.

    As to poking fun, perhaps it is indeed wrong, unless you find them aggressively stepping on Yessodos. But it has nothing at all to do with being Yeshivish or not. Yeshivish is not the point.

    #1218290
    Logician
    Participant

    Sam2 and rebdoniel – no, I really was not referring to him.

    Just protesting the idea that “so-and-so is a Talmid chochom, so don’t be mevazeh”. Scholarship is only impressive in the right context.

    #1218291
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Logician specified that he is not talking about anyone in particular.

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