August 28, 2015 12:50 am at 12:50 am #1099245zogt_besserParticipant
sam2- I imagine Nisht would say that your hypothetical is simply a setirah that could never happen. a “bona fide” gadol just wouldn’t say something evil, and if he did, then that would be a siman that he wasn’t as bona fide as we thought all along…August 28, 2015 1:45 am at 1:45 am #1099246nishtdayngesheftParticipant
Without dealing with Zogt’s answer, I am not sure how strongly disagreeing means one has to use derogatory language.
There is a very big difference.
And in most cases, I would certainly give a bonifide, universally acknowledged gadol the benefit that he knows something I don’t.
For instance, I personally do not follow all the shittos of the Divrei Yoel, but I would not use degrading language to talk about him ChV.
Like a certain posters snide remark.
And Sam, although I do not agree with much you say, I find you typically to be knowledgeable and reasoned, I am therefore surprised with your assumption that strongly disagreeing means ridiculing.August 28, 2015 2:49 am at 2:49 am #1099247Abba_SParticipant
I would take any letter signed by a number of Gedolim with a grain of salt. Most of these letters were not seen by the Gadol. Someone told him about the letter and asked if he agreed. What he was told might not be what you interpret the letter to be saying. Sometimes they don’t even ask they just attached his signature to the letter.
So we do not know whether the even letter exists. And even if it exists did the Godel even know about it. Even if he knew about it does he agree with it the way you interpreted it. Give him the benefit of the doubt and don’t slander him.August 28, 2015 4:39 am at 4:39 am #1099248HealthParticipant
technical20 – “a lot of people in the yeshivish community would probably say that once someone becomes a “Gadol,” it’s impossible to ever disagree with them. In fact, many would cry “?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????” – “????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????”.”
Yes, I’ve heard that many times. But it’s Not so Pashut; I’ve also heard the Din of Lo Susser only applies in the times of the Bais Hamikdush!August 28, 2015 6:50 am at 6:50 am #1099249
nisht: I hear your Chiluk. I hope you hear mine between ridiculing a Shittah and ridiculing a person. I would never ridicule any Frum person, no matter how wrong they are (whether they are a Gadol or not). I will ridicule a Shittah (such as I do to Joseph’s often 😛 ) if necessary, and even that of a Gadol if absolutely necessary. (Though I would obviously be hesitant to do so; in this case I would have no qualms, however, because I honestly think it’s an issue of Pikuach Nefesh. It also helps that my point of Machlokes with these Gedolim here is on an issue of science/Metzius, not Halachah.)August 28, 2015 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #1099250
Sounds more like koolaid room here
Robert Shanik wants to make $1000 on every newborn so he tells us
95 year old Grandma is living longer, because her grandnkids are vaccinated
Polio the oldest vaccine used today was given to kids in 1955
1 in 10 vaxed kids suffer from Asthma
All vaxed kids suffer from developmental delays
Unvaxed kids crawl walk & talk months before vaxed kidsAugust 28, 2015 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #1099252nishtdayngesheftParticipant
You will notice that I did not react to Health’s comments even though I don’t agree with them, because he was disagreeing with their shittah. However ZDs comment was not arguing with the shittah, it was a childish attempt to belittle Gedolim. And that’s why I paraphrased it in my comment to him. Specifically because it is something he does often.
I think there is a matter of Halacha in debating the risks. There is no question that there are risks to the vaccines, the question is how great. And if a parent weighs the risks of vaccination vs no vaccination and the likelyhood of contracting disease while not vaccinated vs contracting it even when vaccinated, then it is a halachick shailah if the person is considered a mazik and if a school has rishus to exclude a child because of that.
That’s also why it’s not comparable to testing for Tay-Sachs as one of the commenters above thought they were being wise raising, because there is no danger at all in being tested for Tay Sachs.
I know you see the difference.
Shabbat shalom.August 28, 2015 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #1099253IluiMember
Once you acknowledge scientific consensus you have to forbid metzitzah b’peh as it is a sakanah as much as leaving children unvaccinated.August 28, 2015 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1099256akupermaParticipant
Returning to the original question posed in this thread:
Almost always, gedolim will disapprove of excluding children from a school. Traditionally, Jewish schools always had open admission. This goes back to antiquity. The theoretical basis is that, de facto, that learning Torah is a right not a privilege. When the Baal ha-battim do try to exclude a child, and someone asks the local gadol, the child typically gets unexcluded. The desire of scome schools to be “exclusive” is something we picked up from the goyim in recent years – it is a “hiddush” that should be rejected.
In all fairness, an unvaccinated child is only a threat to other unvaccinated people – so if a parent is worried they should get their child vaccinated. And if you don’t want to keep out the kids of parents you think are nuts – be sure not to ask a shailoh since you probably won’t like the answer.August 28, 2015 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #1099257
baryochai: I cannot believe I’m seeing these things.
Polio was an epidemic that killed thousands of children a year and left tens of thousands paralyzed. We have a vaccine, and now polio is almost gone. It’s amazing. Baruch Hashem He gave us an opportunity to avoid this.
What is the percentage of non-vaccinated kids that suffer from asthma?
Show me a study linking vaccines to developmental delays. It doesn’t exist. So where do you have that info from?August 28, 2015 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #1099258
So grandma is living to 95 because grandkids got vaccinated?
Do you believe we should vax the dead to protect their grandkids?
Did you read suzanne humphries md’s book dissolving illusions?
Visit Dr Eilenberg MD in Lakewood & see for yourself, asthma among non vaxed kids,@ 1/3 to 1/10 of vaxed kid rate
Talk to the parents who vaxed their older kids but not their younger onesAugust 28, 2015 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1099259
Doctors bill from $50 to $200 per 6 well visits, plus a few sick visits, in 1st year of birth, for vaxed kids
Unvaxed kids,1 per year, mom can count baby’s 10 toes,baby outgrows clothing is proof of height & weight gain, grocery has a scale,tool box has measuring tapeAugust 28, 2015 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1099260
You are flat out making things up
“1 in 10 vaxed kids suffer from Asthma”
You made this up
“All vaxed kids suffer from developmental delays”
You made this up, this one is demonstrably false
“Unvaxed kids crawl walk & talk months before vaxed kids”
you made this up
“In all fairness, an unvaccinated child is only a threat to other unvaccinated people”
This is not true
“So grandma is living to 95 because grandkids got vaccinated?”
No, but often becasue SHE was vaccinated against polio as a child against pneumonia and flu. These all often killed grandma but less so now.
“Do you believe we should vax the dead to protect their grandkids? “
“Did you read suzanne humphries md’s book dissolving illusions?”
“Visit Dr Eilenberg MD in Lakewood & see for yourself, asthma among non vaxed kids,@ 1/3 to 1/10 of vaxed kid rate”
Tell to publish it! she can be famous
“Talk to the parents who vaxed their older kids but not their younger ones”
Talk about what?
BTW I’m curious who you think makes more, Shanik off vaccines or Humphries off her book?August 28, 2015 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #1099261technical21Participant
Let’s say that vaccines don’t work, and people use them anyway. The potential negatives are what they are, and have no scientific basis to them; any evidence on the subject was proven to have been falsified. Anyway, they seem to affect an overwhelming MINORITY of the population.
Let’s go back to a world pre-vaccines. People DIED left, right, and center of measles, mumps, rubella, small pox, and all sorts of other diseases. So assuming that enough people don’t get vaccinations- we are talking about people’s lives.
Even if someone doesn’t want to vaccinate for his own personal reasons, what gives him the right to potentially infect hundreds of other people? Even with a vaccine, people with compromised immune systems can ?”? still acquire these diseases.
Not to vaccinate is purely selfish, in my opinion. Baryochai- that is a great practice of medicine; if we all took it on, all babies would be healthy, of course.August 28, 2015 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1099262
baryochai: I can make ridiculous claims too and use that to make something sound illegitimate. I would call your grandmother thing a straw man, but it’s not even that. It’s just silly. If I claim that going to the bathroom cures cancer, will you stop going to the bathroom because breathing obviously doesn’t help anything?
I have read Humphries. She is an absolute nut. Seriously. She argues that the existence of polio as the cause of all of those child deaths and paralyzed kids until the first half of the 20th century is a myth. Like, she actually claims polio didn’t kill people. She claims that vaccines did nothing to eradicate smallpox. Seriously. If she had it her way, we’d still have millions dying of smallpox every single year because the vaccine doesn’t really do anything. She does not belong in polite (or even impolite) discussion except for the possible Shailah of whether her promoting her views makes her a Rodef.
Do you have any idea at all how much the infant mortality rate has dropped in the past few decades, let alone the last century? It’s not because we have better medicines and doctors. No, of course not.
Also, your presumption of anecdotal evidence (you don’t even cite any, you just say that parents can do it) isn’t proof of anything. You claimed that unvaccinated kids develop faster. Prove it. Show me one study or one reliable something that backs up your claim.August 28, 2015 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #1099263technical21Participant
Sam2- well said.August 28, 2015 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #1099264👑RebYidd23Participant
What about theory: how do vaccines cause autism, disease and developmental delays if they do? I hope we all know how they are supposed to work.August 28, 2015 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #1099265
Sorry i was wrong only 9.9% kids age 5-14 years suffer from asthma
CDC 2013 report http://www.cdc.gov/asthma/most_recent_data.htmAugust 28, 2015 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1099266
Who cares who makes more ? I care who kills !August 28, 2015 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #1099267
Sam 2 says:I can make ridiculous claims too
Baryochai responds: I see that
You don’t even understand simple math! all old people are mostly unvaxed, the vaxed ones are maximum in their 60s & dying from cancer in front their paretns eyesAugust 28, 2015 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #1099269
Thanks for your help,
Now everyone can see what a genius you are,
there was no polio vaccine until 60 years ago
So 95 year old people received polio vax as kids only in your dreamAugust 28, 2015 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #1099270
Sorry i was wrong not 10 % only 9.9% kids age 5-14 years suffer from asthma
according to cdc 2103 reportAugust 28, 2015 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1099271👑RebYidd23Participant
What is it that makes the vaccines cause asthma?August 28, 2015 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #1099272
According to mayo clinic 3 times as many asthma ER visits from these who took the flu shot
Shanik is a ROTZEACH !!!August 28, 2015 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1099273
baryochai: You don’t even understand simple math! all old people are mostly unvaxed, the vaxed ones are maximum in their 60s & dying from cancer in front their paretns eyes
Let me explain something to you. Do you know how many people are above the age of 60 right now? Do you know how many were above the age of 60 in the 1960s? Life expectancy is rising (well, it may have been sort of stagnant for the last decade or so last I checked, but it is certainly much higher than even three decades ago). The infant and adolescent mortality rates are way down. People were dying of cancer at 60 50 years ago too. They often just didn’t know what cancer was then. People are living much longer now.
Also, your whole premise is absurd. There is absolutely NOTHING linking vaccines to these things. So much in the world has changed in the last 50 years. There is more of certain types of pollutions, there are cell phone towers, there are computers, there are different bases going into our paints, there are different materials going into our buildings. It is absolutely insane to pretend to know that your claimed, unproven (untestable, really) rise in younger deaths is due to vaccines.August 28, 2015 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1099274☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
What percentage of people take the flu shot? What percentage of flu ER visits are by those who didn’t take the flu shot? What percentage of flu shot recipients vs. non flu shot recipients visit the ER for either condition?
There are so many other relevant questions to be answered to actually think that flu shots are inadvisable.August 28, 2015 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #1099275
“Who cares who makes more ? I care who kills !”
“Robert Shanik wants to make $1000 on every newborn so he tells us
95 year old Grandma is living longer, because her grandnkids are vaccinated”
In order to defend your indefensible pro-disease stance you resort to labeling those who are far more educated than you and dedicate themselves to the klal as being motivated by profit.
You also resort to bogus “facts” you cite the mayo clinic where is this published I cant find it.August 28, 2015 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #1099276
Ask any parent who has to older vaccinated kids & 2 younger unvaccinated kids,
the all saw the same trend , the unvaxed developed faster & healthier
That is what pharma & their sales force is afraid you will figure outAugust 28, 2015 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #1099277
It’s the same purim shpiel
40 years AHA sells us butter is bad marg is good
nice way of putting poor farmers out of business & padding big trasfat manufacturers’ fat wallet
200 years there were warnings about smoking dangers , but the med journal ran ads DOC smoking CamelAugust 28, 2015 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #1099278
baryochai: I’d rather find someone who has older unvaccinated kids and younger vaccinated one. In today’s atmosphere about these things, the original choice not to vaccinate almost always means you already have an axe to grind. At best, I would call any statement by such parents confirmation bias.
(That being said, you’re still not providing evidence or at least an anecdote about this. You’re just telling me that this is what parents will say. At least give me a way to Google to find a firsthand testimony of what you’re claiming.)August 28, 2015 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #1099279
“Ask any parent who has to older vaccinated kids & 2 younger unvaccinated kids,
the all saw the same trend , the unvaxed developed faster & healthier”
I dont know too many kooks, but the one I do know saw no such difference.
“200 years there were warnings about smoking dangers , but the med journal ran ads DOC smoking Camel”
Also You have yet to provide a single source for any of your nutty pro-disease theories
“According to mayo clinic 3 times as many asthma ER visits from these who took the flu shot”
Where do they report this?August 29, 2015 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #1099280dbrimParticipant
PLEASE DO YOUR RESEARCH. It doesn’t take a Ph.D. to understand the basics of the scientific method or how to evaluate non-experimental and experimental research studies (although having one does give you an edge). The fundamental principle is this:
Only true experiments can establish a cause-and-effect relationship between variables. Non-experimental research cannot demonstrate a cause- and-effect relationship.
Most of the research conducted investigating the effects and effectiveness of vaccines has been NON-experimental, due to the ethical issue of using a control (comparison) group with non-vaccinated children. Studies that have been conducted using time series designs (non-experimental) definitely challenge the belief (yes, it is a belief) that vaccines are effective in eradicating diseases. The research that investigates the association between vaccines and negative effects (autism, asthma) are correlational – again NON-experimental. The reality is we have along road ahead of us in collecting scientific evidence about the short and long term benefits/risks of tens of doses of chilhhood vaccinations children are receiving. So, let’s be tolerant. For those who vaccinate, according to vaccine theory, your children are immunized and should have very little chance of catching childhood diseases (very little in life is fool-proof). Parents who have chosen not to vaccinate are not irresponsible, rotzchim, etc. It is likely that they have done research and/or asked their daas torah before being poraish from the tzibbur. We need not be afraid to question past medical/ societal practices. For those of you who don’t understand why the vaccine issue isn’t totally 100% beneficial with no risks at all, please ask to see the list of vaccine ingredients and the leaflet describing the risks involved in vaccines during your next visit to the pediatrician. May it be a year of only health for Gans Klal Yisroel.
P.S. Whether the letter is fact or fiction is no excuse for slandering talmidei chachamimAugust 30, 2015 2:37 am at 2:37 am #1099281
dbrim well written but a few quibbles:
“PLEASE DO YOUR RESEARCH. It doesn’t take a Ph.D. to understand the basics of the scientific method or how to evaluate non-experimental and experimental research studies (although having one does give you an edge).”
“Only true experiments can establish a cause-and-effect relationship between variables. Non-experimental research cannot demonstrate a cause- and-effect relationship.”
I’m not sure what you mean by experimental research vs non experimental. I assume you mean Randomized controlled studies vs observational. However your point is still not quite true. Even RCT doesnt necessarily PROVE cause-and-effect. And Observational studies even if they dont PROVE it if their is a mechanism and a clear effect shown by a preponderance of data is enough to establish cause-and effect. That smoking can cause lung cancer is something that even the nuttiest of pro-disease people accepts even though there is no RCT that demonstrates it. For that matter, many pro-disease claim that vaccines casue asthma/autism obviously not based on a RCT either.
“Most of the research conducted investigating the effects and effectiveness of vaccines has been NON-experimental, due to the ethical issue of using a control (comparison) group with non-vaccinated children.”
True, though not all.
” Studies that have been conducted using time series designs (non-experimental) definitely challenge the belief (yes, it is a belief) that vaccines are effective in eradicating diseases.”
Source? I have never come across such a study
” The research that investigates the association between vaccines and negative effects (autism, asthma) are correlational – again NON-experimental.”
And havent found any such relationship.
” The reality is we have along road ahead of us in collecting scientific evidence about the short and long term benefits/risks of tens of doses of chilhhood vaccinations children are receiving.”
How long? At whta point in your estimation is it ok to dismiss the pro-diseasers as kooks. Ten years? 20? and after how many studies showing over and over that vaccines are not linked to autism?
” So, let’s be tolerant. For those who vaccinate, according to vaccine theory, your children are immunized and should have very little chance of catching childhood diseases”
I care about THEIR children too! Just becasue they were unlunky enough to have been born to pro-diseasers doent mean innocent children should suffer.
” Parents who have chosen not to vaccinate are not irresponsible,”
“It is likely that they have done research”
It is far from likely I have been discussing this topic for years now. Ive encountered posters demanding studies that already existed! of course once supplied they ran off.
” and/or asked their daas torah before being poraish from the tzibbur.”
This isnt a daas torah question it is a medical question.
“We need not be afraid to question past medical/ societal practices.”
Whole heratedly agree! But we need to be afraid of accepting answers either.
” For those of you who don’t understand why the vaccine issue isn’t totally 100% beneficial with no risks at all, please ask to see the list of vaccine ingredients and the leaflet describing the risks involved in vaccines during your next visit to the pediatrician.”
No need to wait, you cna look up the ingredients they are redily available.
” May it be a year of only health for Gans Klal Yisroel.”
P.S. Whether the letter is fact or fiction is no excuse for slandering talmidei chachamimAugust 30, 2015 3:30 am at 3:30 am #1099282HealthParticipant
dbrim – “Studies that have been conducted using time series designs (non-experimental) definitely challenge the belief (yes, it is a belief) that vaccines are effective in eradicating diseases”
Are you joking? If not, what happened to smallpox and/or polio? They just disappeared?!?August 30, 2015 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #1099283
Health: It’s shocking. People (including someone quoted in this thread) actually think polio didn’t exist.
And I bet it shocks these Jewish anti-vaxxers that there could ever be someone who believes the Holocaust didn’t happen.August 30, 2015 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1099284
I haven’t “run off”. I am just knowledgeable enough to debate scientific testing like you obviously are. I know one thing. I have spoken to many people who saw their children directly affected by vaccines (like literally that day). Dr. Eilenberg has said that he sees how much better the anti vaccine babies do compared to provaccine. Even according to you in our past debate about a large scale study, i still fail to understand one point. We discussed taking 10,000 people pro and anti and follow them. You wrote about the even and uneven coins etc….(as you remember). but i still ask the following. Can we not see with our own eyes how many get sick and how many don’t even if can’t measure any one particular disease. i.e. when vaccines comprise one’s immunity, he will become to many many diseases and his genetic makeup will determine if he gets cancer, diabetes, etc….The problem with all of your studies are for me: 1. i don’t know who funds them. 2. i and i don’t think most know how to read them i.e. who is conducting, how is set up etc….I’m sorry if i am not being clear, but I hope you understand my points.August 30, 2015 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #1099285
p.s. i wrote previous post quickly (with many mistakes) sorry.August 30, 2015 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #1099286JosephParticipant
Question for those against vaccinating their children:
Do you believe that it would be best if everyone in society stopped vaccinating healthy children? Why?August 30, 2015 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #1099287
Um no. You demanded a study to prove the safety of vaccines. You said this would “settle the case once and for all”
I cited you several such studies
You then demanded impossible studies and did not understand why they were impossible indicating that no you are not “knowledgeable enough to debate scientific testing”
I then left off with a simple question. Lets limit the discussion to autism for now. Granted There is no study shows absolutely no risk from vaccines. But there are several that show no link between autism and vaccines. Can you agree to that?
You then ran off
“I know one thing. I have spoken to many people who saw their children directly affected by vaccines (like literally that day)”
You mean they felt irritable and pain at the site? That is to be expected. The Doctor should have told the parent s that.
“Dr. Eilenberg has said that he sees how much better the anti vaccine babies do compared to provaccine.”
Tell him to publish! spread the word save lives! Why is he sitting quiet on this important information?!.
“Can we not see with our own eyes how many get sick and how many don’t even if can’t measure any one particular disease. “
Im not sure what you mean. Sick in what way? 20,000 people is a lot of people such a study would be prohibitively expensive. And besides you cant look for any disease since even with a p value of 0.05 if you want to include 20 diseases then (almost by definition) by chance alone one of them will appear more common on one side.
“i.e. when vaccines comprise one’s immunity, he will become to many many diseases and his genetic makeup will determine if he gets cancer, diabetes, etc….”
vaccines dont compromise immunity (I’m not even sure what you mean) Nor do they affect genetic makeup.
“1. i don’t know who funds them.”
All that information is readily available.
” 2. i and i don’t think most know how to read them i.e. who is conducting, how is set up etc….”
Thats true. Thats why you can either trust those who do know how to read them. Or ask for help understanding them. Flip through the studies or abstracts in the list I provided earlier. If you are genuinely confused and honestly want to learn more. Id be happy to dissect one of the studies with you.
“I’m sorry if i am not being clear, but I hope you understand my points.”
I dont think I doAugust 30, 2015 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #1099289
I believe i explained before that i did not run off, i just had many things going on at the time and i could not devote myself totally but perhaps we can continue now if you wish. Thanks for your patience 🙂
1. Please delete my comment 6 months ago “that it would settle once and for all” and lets continue an intelligent debate (unless we will employ “gotcha” tactics). I am trying to learn. Your study was funded by whom? What can i answer you when there are literally thousands of parents who saw the transformation of their children overnight ? A coincidence? A million studies would not convince me (because i would always suspect the funder or the method….)
2. All diseases however are another issue because it is not immediate. Why is my study impossible for ALL diseases? Take 100,000 children vaxed and not 100,000 not. Let’s check ALL DISEASES. Your statistical technicalities I do not agree with. You see, i come from a position where disease is all rooted in cellular health. The fact that diseases manifest themselves differently in different people is irrelevant. I want to see how 100,000 non-vaccinated kids do with Cancer, Diabetes, Heart Disease etc…which only doubles and triples every couple of decades perhaps in part to kids that are vaxxed to the maxx (like the rhyme?)The hypothesis would be that the vaxes comprise immunity and cellular health considerably and thereby makes the child more susceptible to sickness. Dr. Eisenstien from chicago was quoted as saying that he once received a phone call from insurance company how come he never bills for strep (and some other common maladies)? He replied how his patients do not get strep since they are not vaxed. That says to me much more than just strep. Now if you would come along and quote me study X that proves that there is not link between strep and vaxes, I would not be swayed so easily. Simply because: 1. who funded it? 2. how was it done? 3. my general admitted ignorance of how studies work. i.e. i am not about to take college courses in statistical studies to understand them….
3. When I wrote they saw differences that day, i do not mean pain at site. I’m talking radical changes like autistic behavior etc…and other reactions where the kid is just not the same anymore. Go speak to some…. But, docs say: “it’s all a coincidence”. Like in my city of XXXXXX a preemie got a bris 3 months old and the doc insisted vaxing him day before bris. and the kid tragically died the next day…doc blames on bris, parents on vax. Nothing takes the place of common sense what some of these pediatrician do not have. One pediatrician told me to give my daughter a Hep. B vaccine in the hospital even though the only reason is because maybe the mother is “not too ????….” because he once had a patient who went to Manhattan and sat in a taxi on a needle and got Hepatitis B !! I told him that the chances of getting killed in a car accident on the way to his office was greater than sitting on a needle in a taxi that was infected. There is simply no common sense. And these are the people I should be trusting ?????????
4. Dr. Eilenberg is an elderly man and is busy day and night with patients. You can go to Lakewood and ask him if you doubt me. I would trust someone I know first hand than all the studies in the world that was administered by i don’t know who and funded from I know who…..
5. Now that i read to end i see you discussed some of my points. Unfortunately in such a format we can’t discuss a study. If there was a way to reach out to you over a bowl of cholent i would, but i see no other way….August 30, 2015 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #1099290JosephParticipant
Does anyone advocate that all healthy children in society not be vaccinated for any (or most) current vaccinations?August 30, 2015 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #1099291
stam a deya: Isn’t it so nice when people have their minds made up about facts and now amount of proof can change their minds? My friends totally understand this and that’s why they fully support my decision to believe the world is flat.
In #2 you seem to not understand how vaccines work, among other things. How would a vaccine change a person’s “cellular health”, whatever that means anyway?
In #3, there is no evidence whatsoever linking vaccines to autism. Like, this is the most-researched scientific idea of the last decade. No one has found anything at all.
Also, please answer Joseph’s question. Do you want no one vaccinated for anything?August 30, 2015 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1099292
1. When you see damage first hand, you have to laugh at a doctor that says it’s a coincidence. Simple as that. In fact $25,000,000,000 (That’s billion) was paid out for vaccine damage (other than autism which they refuse to acknowledge).
2. Without understanding of cellular health, you will not understand our concerns.
3. Joseph’s question is very penetrating and I cannot honestly answer. Atleast i’m honest. All i know that there is no question that vaccines harm to many children (if not all) and vaccines “probably” help somewhat. I do not know numbers. In essence, what we are doing by vaxing our kids, is comprising their health for the good of society. Anyone who believes there are no risks at all can be counted with your friends that the world is flat…..August 30, 2015 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1099293
1. “Your study was funded by whom?”
Which I provided several.
eg this one:
Increasing exposure to antibodystimulating
proteins and polysaccharides in vaccines is not
associated with risk of autism
DeStefano F, Price CS, Weintraub ES.
Journal of Pediatrics. 2013;
Was primarily funded by the CDC. But regardless of source of funding if they are up front about it (unlike your friend wakefield) that is no reason to automatically disregard the study, though I grant Id be more careful/suspicous.
“What can i answer you when there are literally thousands of parents who saw the transformation of their children overnight ?” I doubt therie are that many.
” A coincidence?”
There are more than thousands of people who claim revelations from oso haish or have sen UFO’s etc do you buy into all that too?.
“A million studies would not convince me (because i would always suspect the funder or the method….)”
kudos for admitting your lack of objective honesty. Though I’m not quite sure what you want. You readily agree you have an opinion based on anecdotal evidence and will not change your mind no matter what.
This line of yours made 3 days ago “I am neither pro or anti and am somewhat confused.” is also apparently not true…
2. As explained earlier if you take any 2 groups of 100,000 children and look for “all diseases” by sheer chance alone some will be more prevelant in one group than the other.
“Your statistical technicalities I do not agree with.”
They arent mine. Thats the way the Boreh olam designed the world.
“You see, i come from a position where disease is all rooted in cellular health.”
I honestly dont know what that means. If you come from earth then diseases where you are from and where I am from work exactly the same way.
“perhaps in part to kids that are vaxxed to the maxx “
Or perhaps due to blogs…
“The hypothesis would be that the vaxes comprise immunity and cellular health considerably “
care to explain how?
“he once received a phone call from insurance company how come he never bills for strep “
Hahaha an insurance company looking to pay for more diseases! Ok we definitely arent on the same planet. Though yours sounds way better.
3. i will repeat the example someone else gave. Every year as icecream sales go up pool drownings go up. This does not mean ice cream sales cause pool drownings. Whats more regarding Autism and vacccines the above exampe is not true, since as vaccinations go up, Autism DOES NOT!!
4. Their are hundreds of premed and medical students who would kill to have thier names on such an earth shattering study. They would be glad to help for free. Please encourgae him to get this critical information out there.
5. cholent? Wont that alter our cellular health?August 30, 2015 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1099294
stam a deya: You never saw damage firsthand. At best, you have seen correlation. Because unless you have mapped these children’s genomes and followed exactly what changed in each cell after the vaccine was administered, you can’t know. You saw a correlation. People see false correlations all the time.
Please, explain to me what cellular health means and how vaccines change it.
Smallpox killed about half a billion people per century until we eradicated it. But it’s good to know that you can’t honestly say that having vaccines at all has been a good thing.August 30, 2015 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #1099295
1. Funded by the CDC ? Are you for real? I wouldn’t trust them for anything. The govt. is totally tied with the pharmaceutical companies. Bring on the next study! [Just for the record, many of the heads of the FDA are ex-ceo of pharmaceutical companies!!! THEY ARE THE ONES MAKING MEDICAL RECOMMENDATIONS….enjoy!]
2. You doubt there are so many autism cases? Well a prominent American Rosh Yeshiva counts himself amongst them.
3. You also hold it’s a coincidence? Go tell that to the parents and their families and friends….How does that jive with all your statistics? Sunday morning the kid is ok, they get their shots, the kid is never the same again by evening. Coincidence?
4. “I am neither pro or anti and am somewhat confused.” Because if it’s all or nothing i don’t know what i would do. At this point, i would probably recommend for my own family (if my kids ask me), to push off all vaccines as much as possible until child immunity strengthens, and then space out as much as possible, and then go through some type of detoxication program afterwards to lessen the harm from all the foreign substances and then daven their brains out that no harm comes to them. If i study it further, i have a hunch i would tell my children to nix the whole thing.
5. The root of all diseases is based on the health of the cells that make the organs which are not functioning properly. Cells have to take in the proper nutrition and excrete the waste properly. When they don’t disease occurs from build up of toxins. Naturalists will insist on unprocessed foods, which are whole free of chemicals to limit their “toxic load”. That’s why they (we) shy from unnatural products and chemicals in foods etc…The human body simply cannot remove the waste as fast as we are poisoning it with and hence disease. That’s in a nutshell. Now comes vaccines loaded with many foreign substances that many cannot excrete properly (and hence autism that have higher heavy metal levels etc…) in addition to wearing down the immune system etc…(which admittedly i still don’t understand and haven’t researched properly….). (btw, you can thank quacks like me for getting the mercury out of vaccines – the most toxic substance known to humans. if not for us, who knows how many children would suffer…..)Now, all this talk is totally foreign to the medical field who view a health person as someone who is not sick. Where we view a healthy person as one whose body is working properly on a cellular level….The alleopathic and naturalist individuals are coming from two totally different philosophies and will never see eye to eye. All the money is in alleopathy which resorts to chemical medicines to solve all issues and that’s where the fight lead to. Vaccines is part of that trillion dollar business. Just like we do not trust the medical profession (and the congress which is funded by them) regarding the way they practice medicine, we do not trust them with all of their pharma funded companies telling us to vax our kids…
6. Nothing wrong with cholent if you don’t use vegetable oil. I would just add black beans (10x higher antioxidents) and use sweet potatoes instead of regular! It’s actually quite delicious! Nothing wrong with the saturated fat either but that’s a discussion for another day.
Again, i speak as a person directly related to a family of doctors and nurses and i can’t tell you first hand that my relatives know close to nothing about how to eat and live healthy.August 30, 2015 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #1099296
Perhaps i’m wrong but i remember reading that there is no vaccine for scarlet fever but somehow that was eradicated! The procamp is very into showing the graph how all the disease took a nose dive from 1940. What’s interesting is if you look at those same figures from 1900 you see that is already a nose dive. From 1940, it only continues the trend. Google it. It is simply amazing! I have never seen a counter argument to this. I think the reasoning is because of poor sanitation etc…which made all these diseases rampant. As conditions improved, the diseases went away. I remember learning in high school how Jews were persecuted because they were not getting of the plagues (bubonic?) because they would frequent mikvas etc and were generally cleaner than goyim….All of this is a fascinating subject and someone has to research both sides objectively and explain the arguments and counterargument on each and every detail….August 30, 2015 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #1099297
stam: Scarlet fever was not eradicated. It still exists. We just have antibiotics for it now. So when kids get it, we put them on penicillin and they get better. It’s still there. It’s just not lethal anymore.
Some diseases lessened in frequency as hygiene got better. Others didn’t. For example, 2 million people died of smallpox as late as 1967.
And the Jews and bubonic plague thing is a myth. Jews were blamed for “poisoning the wells” because Jews were blamed for everything. Historians have shown that Jews died at about the same rate as the general population. There were just some cities where the disease wasn’t spread to the Jewish areas because the Jews had little contact with their non-Jewish neighbors.
So where do viruses and bacteria fit into your “cell health” theory? How does the immune system work?
Please, cite people (a significant number of documented cases) who say their kids changed after being vaccinated.August 30, 2015 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1099298
Just want to preface that all my knowledge is from my own reading etc….I don’t claim to be anything but curious. Bacteria is an invading force. I know sometimes some infections clear up on own but other times they unfortunately need antibiotics that disrupt the system of the body. Viruses are only as strong in proportion to the immunity of a person. I use to get the flu EVERY YEAR where at times I would faint from the high fever. I start taking a flu shot and i didn’t get sick anymore. But as i got into health etc., i stopped the shots and i haven’t sick once in the last four years except after my daughter’s wedding were every member of my family got the flu for a week and myself for about 12 hours ! I can honestly say i am in better shape now than i was 20 years ago in every way! ??? ??? ??? !August 30, 2015 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #1099299☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
From the government website:
If you look at the history of any vaccine-preventable disease, you will virtually always see that the number of cases of disease starts to drop when a vaccine is licensed.
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