Letter sent to Mishpacha magazine.

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    A friend sent me a copy of a letter that he sent to mishpahca a few weeks ago. I’m interested ih hearing wht people on this forum think aboout the letter writer’s views – and those of Rabbi rosenblum.

    Dear Editor,

    Whilst I appreciate that in fact today the state does exist, and obviously everyone realises the need for basic hishtadlus as regards her welfare, and whilst any sensible person understands and appreciates that the present state is far more desirable option than allowing bloodthirsty Arabs to uphold their oft expressed desire of driving all the jews into the sea, and in fact the few deranged individuals who have suggested otherwise have been distanced by rabbanim of all factions, it is nonetheless a long way from there to suggest we owe gratitude to those have neither the interest nor the will to allow us to serve hashem in peace, have indeed numerous times used their laws and brute force for the contrary [think yaldei Tehran, think oilei Teiman], and above all are in fact the primary cause of many of our difficulties.

    Obviously many of these feeling cannot be explained to a non frum politician, nor can they be used in a debate at the Hebrew University, and I understand the necessity of capable chareidi spokesmen, nonetheless, I still feel that a magazine of the standing of mishpacha, and a writer of the talent of Rabbi Rosenblum, should clearly express the accurate chareidi position, and the feelings and viewpoints of the toira.

    With respect,


    Yeshivas Mir,



    Surely your friend in Mir would agree that he is a little less knowledgable that the Ponevezher Rav. The reason why Ponevezh flies the “anti-Toirah” flag on top of the Bais Medrash on Yom Ha’atzmaut is for Hakaras Hatov.

    Were their intentions 100%pure? Are things perfect? No. But,the Zionists (or as the charedim dubbed them Nazis) have helped allow you to learn in Mir. Have some appreciation.


    You know the moshol about the man who was drowning and davened to Hashem to save him? Then a boat came along, and he said “no thanks, Hashem will save me”, and a man with a life jacket came along, and he said “no thanks, Hashem will save me”, and a helicopter came along, and he said “no thanks, Hashem will save me”. And then he drowned, and he got to shamayim and asked, “Hashem, why didn’t you save me?” And Hashem said, “I tried to save you! I sent you a boat, and a life jacket, and a helicopter, but you wouldn’t take them!”

    I think those who oppose Zionism because “oh, we’re not supposed to conquer E”Y on our own, we have to wait for Hashem to send Moshiach, etc etc” should reread this moshol.


    That Mashal does not apply. Having a point in one area doesn’t prove all others.

    What is the point of this letter? Is this just another place to argue, over and over, the chewd up topic of zionism? I started reading the letter anticipating some new nuanced critique that will exersice logic, critical thinking, and judgement. Instead, I found this stale topic.

    If you want to start a topic on the exact Shita of the mainstream Gedolim on the state, Aliya, conquering, Shalosh Shvuos, gratitude, servitude, hate, Kiruv, acceptance, Tisha B’Av, Shofar on Shabbos, Korban Pesach, Har Habayis, who builds the Beis Hamikdash, natural Geula, Moshiach ben Yosef, donkey, eagle, go right ahead and good luck keeping the thread open for more than three days. I would actually enjoy such a discussion, since the opinion of the mainstream Gedolim is vitually unknown, in my opinion.

    lebidik yankel

    1. I would ask the letter writer if he locks his doors at night. I would ask him if he feels fear walking alone in East Jerusalem. If he can say he doesn’t, good for him. For you and I, though, we take precaution for our safety. (Our behavior proves that we do not consider our learning sufficient to protect us)

    And when someone does the job for us, we are most grateful.

    2. I think that someone whose job is to help you is considered helping you although he is doing his job. I suppose he finds it meaningful as well, not doing it by rote, just because he as to.

    3. And if the Medina is a positive or negative development is a question for history. Today klal Yisroel is there and need protecting.


    jewishfeminist02 — I love what you wrote.

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit

    You know the moshol about the man who was drowning and davened to Hashem to save him? Then a boat came along, and he said “no thanks, Hashem will save me”, and a man with a life jacket came along, and he said “no thanks, Hashem will save me”, and a helicopter came along, and he said “no thanks, Hashem will save me”. And then he drowned, and he got to shamayim and asked, “Hashem, why didn’t you save me?” And Hashem said, “I tried to save you! I sent you a boat, and a life jacket, and a helicopter, but you wouldn’t take them!”

    I’ll fix up the moshol a bit to make it more appropriate. A man was stranded in middle of the ocean. He was just about staying at the surface by treading water. A pirate ship passed by and invited him aboard. He refused to go. A ship flying the flag of an enemy country passed by and offered to take him on, he refused. A personal enemy passed by on a helicopter and threw him a rope. He did not grab on, and kept treading water. His enemy yelled down “What are you waiting for? Why won’t you let anyone rescue you?” He replied “I’m waiting for someone to rescue me that isn’t doing it for the privilege of killing me. Until one such person comes along, I’ll keep treading water and doing my best to stay afloat”


    Yes, Israel’s gov and army aren’t perfect. However, if you are chareidi and you live in eretz yisrael, you do so thanks to the Israeli army. Without it, Israel would quickly be run over by terrorists and other arab armies, and a second holocaust (r”l) could occur. As long as Israel is strong, that won’t happen, and therefore, every bachur in Mir is safe from attack.

    Of course we would like the army to be more accomodating to frum soldiers, and for overall Israeli society to help chareidim rather than turn against them. However, as long as the soldiers keep preventing Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, and other enemies from attacking Israel, you should real feel grateful to be learning in eretz hakodesh, and able to walk the land of our avos and imahos in safety.


    I would assume this letter is a hoax. If it is not that dare I say that the rosh yeshivas in the Mir would be depressed if they knew one of there own had such chutzpah. Not only does he not want to say thank you to the soldiers but now he feels that it’s only the soldiers averios that caused all our problems and the frum in eretz yisroel don’t do any averios! Again, especially as a parent of a former talmid in the mir I believe that this letter is a hoax.


    Normally, I yawn when i see a long piece and avoid reading it, but when I read some of the comments ,I thought I had to read it in its entirety.

    Well, it wss even worse that any of the commenters wrote. The author is wrong halachically, historically and socially. It would take a long column to refute his arguments but he is especially egregious when he writes that those who protect Israel are the cause of all the dangers.I would offer any of the people who may think like him the opportunity of going to learn anywhere in the middle east-say Syria, Iran, Lebanon- and see how long they will live. As a matter of fact ,try learning in france today and tell us how you fare!


    Outrageous!!! “They don’t allow them to serve Ha’Shem in peace…”. If not for the Medinah all those kollel people in Eretz Yisroel would be working and a long, long time ago. Plus the OP is a troll.


    Zushy, the letter is an erudite and mannerly iteration of the crudely expressed theories of Health and HaKatan: Israel and the IDF are instruments of shmad and were created for that purpose, no gratitude is owed because the secular don’t have the right kavanna (as we have the ability to rule, of course), they brought all those misfortunes on themselves and on us because they don’t keep “toira and mitzvois,” etc. I propose a counterpoint. The chazals the writer cites are parts of a makhloket. If the propriety of thanking the Romans is debated in both directions, one just might be machmir and feel a bit of gratitude to Jews who believe they are safeguarding the whole population — frum, non-frum, Arabs, tourists — with their bodies.


    Shame on ANYONE who belittles the sacrifices that the Israeli soldiers make on behalf of E”Y. Their meiras nefesh is what allows those ingrates to continue sitting in the kollel instead of being out there with them head to head fighting the enemy. A little hakoras hatov goes a long way. Make that a LOT. IS the situation ideal? No. But it’s all we have at the present. The answer IMO is for MORE frum soldiers to be in the army and rise to high ranks of influence. Changes come from within. It is tragic that we need an army, but it is a fact of life in E”Y.


    This letter, and a post by a Mir student on another popular yeshivish website, have crystallized something I’ve been struggling to figure out for months, if not years. I think I finally get it.

    Those who are advocating these views, those who are dictating these views, those who are supporting these views – You’ve done something that neither the advent of chasidus has done, nor the reform or conservatives or the progenitors of the Haskala.

    You have redefined Judaism and Jewish observance to the point where you have produced a new religion.

    What does that mean?

    I don’t mean for a minute that you’ve abandoned the framework of mesorah.

    I don’t mean you’ve abandoned shmiras hamitzvos.

    I don’t mean that you have evil intent.

    I don’t even mean that you are objectively wrong.

    What I DO mean is that you or those whose guidance you follow have eviscerated national responsibility and national purpose from Judaism. You have removed it, for your communities, from what it means to be Jewish. And it is understandable, because expression of that national responsibility and purpose was limited almost to extinction for more than a thousand years.

    Now that the opportunity to act like a nation has been given to us by HKBH, you turn away from it. You’ve redefined Judaism to “work” without it.

    Many Torah observant Jews disagree with you. Many of them embrace the opportunity to practice a “whole” Judaism. They not only learn but also do that which builds and protects the physical national environment or infrastructure which nationhood within Torah Judaism demands.

    Many of our brothers and sisters who are not (yet) Torah observant embrace the opportunity to begin to fulfill the responsibilities incumbent on “Am” Yisrael. They may be inspired to national responsibilities, but little in the demeanor and public discourse of those who advocate for a Judaism without national responsibilites encourages them to embrace the individual and congregational responsibilities which have come to solely define your new Judaism.

    I think that there is an authenticity to a Judaism inclusive of national responsibility that you are not seeing or understanding. You think its new, when it seems to me it is ancient.

    And with the clarity I think I now have, I wonder – what of those many of us who have a foot planted firmly in both camps? Are you going to make us choose your religion over theirs? Will they make us choose?


    “is what allows those ingrates to continue sitting in the kollel”

    watch yourself.

    Working on it

    I cannot fully express how disgusted I get when reading these “chareidi” statements. If you all feel so terribly oppressed, why don’t you just LEAVE? Nobody is holding you down. Go to other countries – as rabbiofberlin said, I’m sure all of Israel’s neighbors would welcome you and provide the same financial support and military security you receive now. Better yet, how about you retrace your steps and go back to Poland and see how you do there. Wait a second, they banned shechita there… OK, how about Hungary, oh, wait, they may blow you up as you leave the airport. How about France? Sure, you may worry about someone walking up to a child and shooting them in the head, but at least you won’t have to join their army. FYI, the other European countries are not much better, we just haven’t seen their full potential yet.

    The point is, if your head is stuck so deep in the sand, then you are correct – who needs to have hakaras hatov to the soldiers? According to you they aren’t even considered Jews, right? So what they risk their life for YOU, they owe it to you. After all, you learn in their zechus, you are the one to keep them safe. Is that right?

    Let me explain it to you this way; you have it all backwards. The teenage soldiers that get attacked by so-called “charedim” did not put in place the policies of the draft. They are under it’s obligation to serve but they are not the ones trying to compel others to join. However, when they see this baseless hatred and vicious attacks, you better believe that they will support any legislation that will, in turn, make life more difficult for you. This is how hatred grows – through retaliation.

    The Torah is supposed to teach us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. To be an example to the “umos haolam”. I find it ironic that the people who claim to learn all day missed such an important lesson


    yichusdik: You can keep your new religion and proselytize it to the seculars who already agree with you on 95+% of things. As for the rest of us, whether we learn in Mir, Brisk, Torah Vadaas or Ponovezh, we will continue practicing the same religion we have practiced since Har Sinai.

    Working on it: You can leave. A lot of your folks already left to the US and Europe.


    I wonder why the letter writer assumes that R’Shimon bar Yochai was correct and not R’Yehuda in the same Gemara.

    I also wonder how the letter writer confused Hashem’s cricism of the nations of the world (in Avoda Zara 2b) based on their true motives, with our obligation to have hakaras hatov.


    What a letter! Yasher Koach.

    B”H, somebody finally wrote in to bring up these points in a mainstream public forum.

    The Zionists here, as usual, can’t help but defend their idolatry.

    JewishFeminist02 and Gamanit, the very minor problem with your analogy is that the State is forbidden by the Torah. So you can’t claim the State is the helicopter pilot; rather, the State is more likely the drowning waters.

    yankel, he quoted two gemaras which indicate precisely the opposite of what you wrote: hakaras haTov is NOT always appropriate even if someone “does you a favor”.

    oomis, he addressed your post too: there is no obligation to “make sacrifices for E”Y” for Israel’s real estate holdings.

    You also missed his entire point that it is the Chareidim’s mesiras nefesh in learning untold hours of learning per day that is keeping the people safe *despite* the shmad of the IDF. You also missed his point that Israel and the IDF wish to shmad the chareidim who they get to join the IDF.

    Let’s also assume for a moment that you are correct that by flooding the IDF with chareidim that the IDF will somehow become some “National Religious” army. How many Jews shmaded is it worth it to you for that to happen? Clearly, the change would not come overnight and many Jewish souls would fall prey, CH”V, to Zionist shmad (not to mention the physical dangers), Hashem yishmor, before such change would happen.

    B”H; what a letter!


    DerechErets is right on.

    yichusdik, you are, surely unwittingly, promoting a different theology, known as “Religious Zionism” which in Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s words, is Torah and Avoda Zara mixed together.

    It is the Zionists who have literally “redefined Judaism and Jewish observance to the point where you have produced a new religion”.

    To answer your question, I would go with an approach like Eliyahu haNavi’s “Ad Masai Atem Pochasim al shitei HaSiifim” question.

    If the Avoda Zara of Nationalism/Zionism is your faith, then simply say so. But if, instead, the Torah we received from Hashem at Har Sinai is your guide, then “hasiru es elohei haNeichar asher bisochichem” and join the Jews who remain loyal to the Torah and have been zoche to see past the bitter lies of Zionism.


    Well, Derech Erets, in the 13 minutes you have been a member here, I see you have got to the nuts and bolts of what it means to write in the CR. Insult, denigrate, obfuscate.

    My point was that the removal of national responsibility from what it means to be a Jew is the chiddush, and it doesn’t reflect maamad har sinai. Let me ask you something – When bnei Yisroel were in the desert, after leaving Egypt, before maamad har sinai, clearly they were elevating from the depths of tumah, but our mesorah tells us they hadn’t reached the level they would at har sinai.

    When they fought Amalek, did anyone say “I have my responsibility to HKBH figured out, and it doesn’t include fighting these guys in a common army”? NO. They all fought. This was even BEFORE getting the Torah, and they understood what Moshe, what HKBH expected of them.

    After Har Sinai, the shvatim made their contributions to the armies, they marched and camped and governed as parts of a nation.

    It is what you are advocating that is new. I don’t have to proselytize for something that is and has always been part and parcel of authentic Torah true Judaism.


    mdd, Jews were learning in Eretz Yisrael long before the Zionists made their mess there.


    Hakatan, repeating a chiddush like your interpretation of Judaism doesn’t make it any more complete or authentic. As long as it ignores national responsibility it is the new, it is the branch in the road, not the other way around.

    I’m not promoting any theology. I leave that to you and your fellow travellers. Do what you want. It may indeed be most appropriate for you. Just don’t fool yourself or try to fool others into thinking it is a Judaism that fulfills all the responsibilities HKBH expected a Jew to fulfill.


    Working on it:

    Perhaps you should work more on your ahavas haTorah before working on love of Zionism. Zionism is shmad. The State is forbidden by the Torah. Religion and Nationalism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara. Keep “working on it” from there.


    I agree with yichusdik. I have been thinking the same thing as of late. They have created a new version of the religion.

    The folks in Agudah and Israel Charedi parties better be careful. There are a lot of folks, more than 50% that agree that was is going is not correct. They will lose many supporters. We need cooler heads to prevail and get back on track as a community. We need REAL leadership NOT askonim who tell the Rabbonim what to do!!


    I agree that HaKatan’s Derech is valid. If only the “Charaidim” would have followed his appropriate Derech and not joined in with the Tzionim to create Yeshivas Rodef Kesef, our current troubles would not have existed. Instead, they were a Zona (like the american term “got into bed”) with what they themselves consider to be Assur.

    yichusdik: I don’t agree with it, but being anti-Tzioni is a valid Shittah. As long as they are consistant (they don’t take any money from the government, including health care), and leave others who don’t follow their derech unharmed, I have no issues with them and neither should you. If they hold the state is Assur, they are objectors to that state and should not be forced to serve.


    As for the OP, his words speak for themselves (as per why he is incorrect), and I don’t see anything that I need to add.

    Working on it

    Hakatan – how do you know how much ahavas haTorah I have??? Who are you to judge me or anyone else? Additionally, did I say anything about Zionism that prompted your attack? NO, I simply said that if you do not like the rules of a country, you are free to leave and go to a place that you like better. That place may not exist but you can certainly leave this “oppressive” Medina.

    Derech – your comment is exactly my point. “A lot of your folks already left…” Who exactly are my “folks”? You don’t know me and yet you have no trouble separating me into a category of your people. WE ARE ALL THE SAME PEOPLE! As much as I may disagree with your perspective, I would not consider you a separate entity. I highly doubt that at har Sinai they said “OK, all those not on our level, step to the outside of the camp and patrol the perimiter. The rest of us “real Jews” will continue to sit in our tents.”

    You know, I have said to NYPD officers “thank you for your service”, because I know that they too risk their lives every day to make sure that it is safe for us to do what we want to do, whenever we want to do it, and they deserve to be shown a measure of appreciation. What I am suggesting is that you have that small measure of appreciation for the young JEWISH soldiers. Or, at the very least, not kick them out of your shuls or beat them up for walking in the street with their uniform on. Is that too much to ask? IS IT?



    Merely saying something is avoda zara, doesn’t make it actually avoda zara, and not everything a Rav calls avoda zara (when trying to criticise something) is literally avoda zara. I hope that you don’t actually mean that Zionism is literally avoda zara.


    The most hilarious aspect of all these anti-israel,anti-Zionist comments is , that on another thread, they rush to congratulate the new Chief rabbis because the National religous rabbis lost. This is the same Chief Rabbinate that the Brisker Rov zz’l (HaKatan’s favorite anti-zionist) called avdodah zoroh and forbade to go into Heichal Shlomo. This is the same Chief rabbinate that has Rav kook zz’l and all the other Chief rabbis prominently displayed in Heichal Shlomo. What is it, guys? Avodah zoroh or the new coming of the messiah?


    ROB- your taanas just get dumber, eh? i think theyre happy that, al kol ponim, the ability to decide and implement changes to laws that have to do with yiddishkeit hasnt fallen to those who would seek to compromise. pretty simple.


    TOI- Why whould you care on iota about who is Chief Rabbi? The people you associate with don’t eat from its hechsher, don’t get married by its Rabbonim,don’t go to any of the schools/yeshivas that they organize, why would you care? YOU CARE because in Eretz Yisroel, gradually, people start to respect the medinah and its institutions, so youuare trying to control it. That is fair- but beware, the movement is all to the other side! ( allusion intended)

    lebidik yankel

    Hakatan: the gemara he quoted was that one needs not thank the Romans who built things for their own sake. That has little to do with someone who is protecting you, but its his mandate or job. Agree?


    You also missed his entire point that it is the Chareidim’s mesiras nefesh in learning untold hours of learning per day that is keeping the people safe *despite* the shmad of the IDF. You also missed his point that Israel and the IDF wish to shmad the chareidim who they get to join the IDF.’

    No, I believe it is you who misses the point. Torah learning goes hand in hand with defending E”Y from our sonim.


    ROB, Israel’s chief rabbi matters to Jews outside Israel because their policies ultimately affect Jews worldwide when it comes to things like geirus and mamzeirus.



    I guess you don’t get it. It is *your* way that is the “chiddush”.


    No, I do not agree.

    Regarding hakaras haTov to an individual soldier, the OP wrote “Obviously one owes a debt of gratitude to one who does something for you, if he risks his life in doing so, all the more so.” But that’s irrelevant and not his point.

    His point was regarding the IDF as a whole, which is an entity of shmad and znus.

    The gemara he quoted clearly applies to the IDF as a whole. Its main purpose is as described above, though it obviously does perform military duties, too.

    I think the OP wrote it best.



    Where in the Torah does it say that defending Zionist control of Eretz Yisrael supersedes Talmud Torah (or anything else, for that matter)?

    And if you’ll answer that it’s pikuach nefesh of its citizens, then consider that shmad and arayos supersede even pikuach nefesh.

    See what a big mess the Zionists made?



    Rav Elchonon HY”D was pretty clear, I thought, in Ikvisa DiMishicha that he considered Zionism to be Avoda Zara and not “lav davka”.

    Redefining a Jew, as Zionism does, from a Torah-based oveid Hashem to a Nation/State-based “Hebrew” (i.e. Zionism), seems to qualify as literal avoda zara, in my humble understanding.

    The Brisker Rav’s calling Israel the Satan’s greatest triumph since the eigel is, I think, very telling, especially since he was known to measure his words very, very carefully.

    But you know better than them and others?


    Working on it:

    I apologize if you felt I was “attacking” you. I certainly wasn’t judging you; perhaps I misunderstood the intent of your words; I apologize, if this is the case.

    Please understand that your statement that the chareidim should leave is very offensive because the Chareidim were there long before the Zionists made their mess there.

    Furthermore, after all the shmad the Zionists did to chareidim and others and the security problems the Zionists have created with their foolish provocations from well before 1948 and beyond, the very least the Zionists could do at this point would be to leave the chareidim alone and let them learn and work without forcing their shmad IDF on them.

    Though it was not addressed to me, from the end of your recent post, I wonder how you can reconcile ahavas haTorah with what you wrote. First, are you really comparing the IDF shmad and znus to the NYPD? Seriously?

    Of course one’s local PD deserves gratitude for what they do. And an individual soldier who saves lives is to be commended for that, too.

    But, yes, it is too much to ask that Jews should remain silent while their brethren serve as walking billboards for the IDF, that den of shmad and znus, so antithetical to the Torah, that even current rabbanim have called it a gezeira and are willing to uproot their lives and yeshivos with them and leave Eretz Yisrael because of this gezeira.


    Just because a letter was sent to Mishpacha does not mean they published it. I really hope this letter is a hoax. The YWN should have also investigated it before allowing this thread. Matzav also has another “Mir bachur” letter being commented upon. Maybe someone is trying to drag the honor of Mir thru the mud?

    This letter appears to be infused with a phoney Chassidic accent.



    As you posted, this is, indeed, what the Brisker Rav told the Chazon Ish. The Chazon Ish posited to the Brisker Rav that the then-newly-founded State Of Israel is an example of “gezeira avida liHeiBatla”.

    To which the Brisker Rav responded that this is only true if it is also viewed as a gizeira. He said that he feared it was not viewed as such and that religious Jews will join the Zionists in running Israel.

    Not only that, he said, he feared that the Zionists will get nourishment from our kedusha, from the yeshivos and chadarim that they’d support.

    If so, he feared that the State will be a bitter gizeira and that this gizeira ra would remain until the coming of Mashiach.

    May Hashem redeem us all BB”A.


    ROB- or, again, we’re just happy that theres no-one goren-esque skewing halachah to suit the rosh memshala’s whims.


    Calling a letter a troll – alhtough i’ve no idea why one might think so is just decide so – is simply denying that the letter writer mught have a valid point.

    Jewish feminist:

    Your moshol is very sweet, but at least in the leter writer’s opinion, the moshol is that of a man drowning, who, when someone offered him a rope to enable him to stay alive in the water accepted it, when asked why he didn’t appreciate he said, “you sent a rope because you wanted to fish, and hey, it was you who threw me in the water in the first place.”


    I clearly heard R’ avidgor miller say that k’lal yisroel have ZERO nationalistic aspirations OTHER than those that are clearly rotoin hashem. I am happy to hear if other gedoilim held differently, but it has little bearing on whether those who are opposed to basic idea of a jewish owe hakoras hatoiv to soldiers.



    I am not saying that R’Elchonon used the words “avoda zara” in a lav davka way. I am saying that R’Elchonon was using avoda zara as a mashul. I highly doubt that R’Elchonon would hold that Israeli flags are assur b’hana, for example, which they would be if Zionism was literaly avoda zara.

    Similarly, the Brisker Rav’s statement doesn’t mean that Zionism is an eigel. The Satan is not limited in his tools to literal avoda zara. Rather the Brisker Rav is saying that the Satan was using Zionism as a means to cause Klal Yisroel to stray from the path of Torah.

    Zionism isn’t literal avoda zara because it doesn’t require the denial of Hashem or the attribution of divine power to some other being, ChV”Sh, other than Hashem.


    Zushy. We don’t have stam nationalistic aspirations out of some 19th century political zeitgeist. If that were the (only) motivation, R’ Avigdor Miller’s assertion would indeed apply.

    We have, and have always had, national RESPONSIBILITIES. For valid reasons over a very long time, these were downplayed or ignored. Now that we have the opportunity to perform them again, turning away from them is a choice, a chiddush, essentially cutting off part of what HKBH made us when he took us out of Mitzrayim. It is little less than a new religion.


    zushy: Obviously you cherish R”Avigdor Miller’s zz’l words. Kudos to you but allow me to disagree totally. Please read some of the writigns of Rav Kook zz’k and you will see how klal yisroel has major national aspirations. Or read some of the writings (including kinos) by R’Jehuda halevi.Not to forget many gemoros who deal with our yearning for a new Eretz Yisroel.



    Please read Rav Elchonon’s writings. He is clear that Zionism is literally Avoda Zara. As to the Israeli flag, just because Zionism is Avoda Zara that does not mean that the Israeli flag is a forbidden religious symbol (it is not forbidden to place in a shul, according to Rav Moshe). But, regardless, Zionism is A”Z.


    It seems you are implying that tahor is tamei and tamei is tahor.

    Hypothetical “national responsibilities” have nothing to do with Zionism since Zionism is treif, as discussed. The authentic and original Judaism is Judaism without, liHavdil, Zionism. The new religion here is Zionism, regardless of “flavor”.


    It’s sad that you ROB is fooled by Zionism, but I am sure you are aware that gedolim have said it is assur to read Rav Kook’s writings, and some hold one may not even read the ones not related to Zionism.


    Rabbi of berlin and yihcusdik:

    If i understood R’ miller zatzal correctly he was saying that although the torah undoubtedly includes a mitzva of kibbush ha’aretz, nonetheless that mitzvah is limited to a time when we it is clearly rotzoin hashem, additionally the matoro must be not only kibbush but also malchus beis dovid and a beis hamidkosh.

    No one is chas vesholom suggesting a new religion, take a look for instance at the ramban in mitzva 4 she’shocho harov, etc… just to quote r’ moishe sherer, zion yes, zionism not.


    I feel much of r’ wasserman;s position has been taken out of context. He waas not chas vesholom suggesting that there is no mitzva of kibbush ha’aretz in the right times, rather he was saying that making it the main mitzva in the toira and denying the purpose of other mitzvois is avoida zoro.


    Zushy, thenks for the clarification.

    Jewish feminist, wrong mosholim can be very misleading, and are often a way of making a really off the mark point.


    Hakatan – repeating “zionism is treif” ad nauseum with your fingers planted firmly in your ears doesn’t make the assertion any more valid.

    there is nothing hypothetical about our national responsibilities.

    There’s nothing hypothetical about the soldier guarding Meah Shearim, or Bnei Brak, or Geula, or Beitar Illit.

    There’s nothing hypothetical about a chareidi soldier walking to his home through any of those areas.

    Zushy – its clear to me elements of our responsibility as an Am were taken away from us by our golus and without those opportunities our leaders focused on other observances. Now that we have the opportunity to fulfill them, saying they don’t exist is a chiddush, and denigrating those who do seek to fulfill them is the same as making fun of or putting down or not recognizing the effort of someone who is doing any other mitzvah.

    R’ Wasserman is quoted as saying that if you make kivush more important than all the other mitzvos, its avodoh zoro. He’s right. But that applies to every single mitzvo, except, perhaps, recognizing HKBH’s soveriegnty or veohavto loreacho komocho.

    No one made kivush the only mitzvo of importance, except perhaps the anti zionists who wanted to erect it as a straw man they could later pull down.

    You can make A’Z out of anything, or anyone, too.

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