Letter sent to Mishpacha magazine.

Surely your friend in Mir would agree that he is a little less knowledgable that the Ponevezher Rav. The reason why Ponevezh flies the “anti-Toirah” flag on top of the Bais Medrash on Yom Ha’atzmaut is for Hakaras Hatov.

Were their intentions 100%pure? Are things perfect? No. But,the Zionists (or as the charedim dubbed them Nazis) have helped allow you to learn in Mir. Have some appreciation.

That Mashal does not apply. Having a point in one area doesn’t prove all others.

What is the point of this letter? Is this just another place to argue, over and over, the chewd up topic of zionism? I started reading the letter anticipating some new nuanced critique that will exersice logic, critical thinking, and judgement. Instead, I found this stale topic.

If you want to start a topic on the exact Shita of the mainstream Gedolim on the state, Aliya, conquering, Shalosh Shvuos, gratitude, servitude, hate, Kiruv, acceptance, Tisha B’Av, Shofar on Shabbos, Korban Pesach, Har Habayis, who builds the Beis Hamikdash, natural Geula, Moshiach ben Yosef, donkey, eagle, go right ahead and good luck keeping the thread open for more than three days. I would actually enjoy such a discussion, since the opinion of the mainstream Gedolim is vitually unknown, in my opinion.

jewishfeminist02 — I love what you wrote.

Yes, Israel’s gov and army aren’t perfect. However, if you are chareidi and you live in eretz yisrael, you do so thanks to the Israeli army. Without it, Israel would quickly be run over by terrorists and other arab armies, and a second holocaust (r”l) could occur. As long as Israel is strong, that won’t happen, and therefore, every bachur in Mir is safe from attack.

Of course we would like the army to be more accomodating to frum soldiers, and for overall Israeli society to help chareidim rather than turn against them. However, as long as the soldiers keep preventing Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, and other enemies from attacking Israel, you should real feel grateful to be learning in eretz hakodesh, and able to walk the land of our avos and imahos in safety.

Normally, I yawn when i see a long piece and avoid reading it, but when I read some of the comments ,I thought I had to read it in its entirety.

Well, it wss even worse that any of the commenters wrote. The author is wrong halachically, historically and socially. It would take a long column to refute his arguments but he is especially egregious when he writes that those who protect Israel are the cause of all the dangers.I would offer any of the people who may think like him the opportunity of going to learn anywhere in the middle east-say Syria, Iran, Lebanon- and see how long they will live. As a matter of fact ,try learning in france today and tell us how you fare!

Zushy, the letter is an erudite and mannerly iteration of the crudely expressed theories of Health and HaKatan: Israel and the IDF are instruments of shmad and were created for that purpose, no gratitude is owed because the secular don’t have the right kavanna (as we have the ability to rule, of course), they brought all those misfortunes on themselves and on us because they don’t keep “toira and mitzvois,” etc. I propose a counterpoint. The chazals the writer cites are parts of a makhloket. If the propriety of thanking the Romans is debated in both directions, one just might be machmir and feel a bit of gratitude to Jews who believe they are safeguarding the whole population — frum, non-frum, Arabs, tourists — with their bodies.

This letter, and a post by a Mir student on another popular yeshivish website, have crystallized something I’ve been struggling to figure out for months, if not years. I think I finally get it.

Those who are advocating these views, those who are dictating these views, those who are supporting these views – You’ve done something that neither the advent of chasidus has done, nor the reform or conservatives or the progenitors of the Haskala.

You have redefined Judaism and Jewish observance to the point where you have produced a new religion.

What does that mean?

I don’t mean for a minute that you’ve abandoned the framework of mesorah.

I don’t mean you’ve abandoned shmiras hamitzvos.

I don’t mean that you have evil intent.

I don’t even mean that you are objectively wrong.

What I DO mean is that you or those whose guidance you follow have eviscerated national responsibility and national purpose from Judaism. You have removed it, for your communities, from what it means to be Jewish. And it is understandable, because expression of that national responsibility and purpose was limited almost to extinction for more than a thousand years.

Now that the opportunity to act like a nation has been given to us by HKBH, you turn away from it. You’ve redefined Judaism to “work” without it.

Many Torah observant Jews disagree with you. Many of them embrace the opportunity to practice a “whole” Judaism. They not only learn but also do that which builds and protects the physical national environment or infrastructure which nationhood within Torah Judaism demands.

Many of our brothers and sisters who are not (yet) Torah observant embrace the opportunity to begin to fulfill the responsibilities incumbent on “Am” Yisrael. They may be inspired to national responsibilities, but little in the demeanor and public discourse of those who advocate for a Judaism without national responsibilites encourages them to embrace the individual and congregational responsibilities which have come to solely define your new Judaism.

I think that there is an authenticity to a Judaism inclusive of national responsibility that you are not seeing or understanding. You think its new, when it seems to me it is ancient.

And with the clarity I think I now have, I wonder – what of those many of us who have a foot planted firmly in both camps? Are you going to make us choose your religion over theirs? Will they make us choose?

I cannot fully express how disgusted I get when reading these “chareidi” statements. If you all feel so terribly oppressed, why don’t you just LEAVE? Nobody is holding you down. Go to other countries – as rabbiofberlin said, I’m sure all of Israel’s neighbors would welcome you and provide the same financial support and military security you receive now. Better yet, how about you retrace your steps and go back to Poland and see how you do there. Wait a second, they banned shechita there… OK, how about Hungary, oh, wait, they may blow you up as you leave the airport. How about France? Sure, you may worry about someone walking up to a child and shooting them in the head, but at least you won’t have to join their army. FYI, the other European countries are not much better, we just haven’t seen their full potential yet.

The point is, if your head is stuck so deep in the sand, then you are correct – who needs to have hakaras hatov to the soldiers? According to you they aren’t even considered Jews, right? So what they risk their life for YOU, they owe it to you. After all, you learn in their zechus, you are the one to keep them safe. Is that right?

Let me explain it to you this way; you have it all backwards. The teenage soldiers that get attacked by so-called “charedim” did not put in place the policies of the draft. They are under it’s obligation to serve but they are not the ones trying to compel others to join. However, when they see this baseless hatred and vicious attacks, you better believe that they will support any legislation that will, in turn, make life more difficult for you. This is how hatred grows – through retaliation.

The Torah is supposed to teach us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. To be an example to the “umos haolam”. I find it ironic that the people who claim to learn all day missed such an important lesson

I wonder why the letter writer assumes that R’Shimon bar Yochai was correct and not R’Yehuda in the same Gemara.

I also wonder how the letter writer confused Hashem’s cricism of the nations of the world (in Avoda Zara 2b) based on their true motives, with our obligation to have hakaras hatov.

DerechErets is right on.

yichusdik, you are, surely unwittingly, promoting a different theology, known as “Religious Zionism” which in Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s words, is Torah and Avoda Zara mixed together.

It is the Zionists who have literally “redefined Judaism and Jewish observance to the point where you have produced a new religion”.

To answer your question, I would go with an approach like Eliyahu haNavi’s “Ad Masai Atem Pochasim al shitei HaSiifim” question.

If the Avoda Zara of Nationalism/Zionism is your faith, then simply say so. But if, instead, the Torah we received from Hashem at Har Sinai is your guide, then “hasiru es elohei haNeichar asher bisochichem” and join the Jews who remain loyal to the Torah and have been zoche to see past the bitter lies of Zionism.

mdd, Jews were learning in Eretz Yisrael long before the Zionists made their mess there.

Working on it:

Perhaps you should work more on your ahavas haTorah before working on love of Zionism. Zionism is shmad. The State is forbidden by the Torah. Religion and Nationalism is Religion mixed with Avoda Zara. Keep “working on it” from there.

I agree that HaKatan’s Derech is valid. If only the “Charaidim” would have followed his appropriate Derech and not joined in with the Tzionim to create Yeshivas Rodef Kesef, our current troubles would not have existed. Instead, they were a Zona (like the american term “got into bed”) with what they themselves consider to be Assur.

yichusdik: I don’t agree with it, but being anti-Tzioni is a valid Shittah. As long as they are consistant (they don’t take any money from the government, including health care), and leave others who don’t follow their derech unharmed, I have no issues with them and neither should you. If they hold the state is Assur, they are objectors to that state and should not be forced to serve.

Hakatan – how do you know how much ahavas haTorah I have??? Who are you to judge me or anyone else? Additionally, did I say anything about Zionism that prompted your attack? NO, I simply said that if you do not like the rules of a country, you are free to leave and go to a place that you like better. That place may not exist but you can certainly leave this “oppressive” Medina.

Derech – your comment is exactly my point. “A lot of your folks already left…” Who exactly are my “folks”? You don’t know me and yet you have no trouble separating me into a category of your people. WE ARE ALL THE SAME PEOPLE! As much as I may disagree with your perspective, I would not consider you a separate entity. I highly doubt that at har Sinai they said “OK, all those not on our level, step to the outside of the camp and patrol the perimiter. The rest of us “real Jews” will continue to sit in our tents.”

You know, I have said to NYPD officers “thank you for your service”, because I know that they too risk their lives every day to make sure that it is safe for us to do what we want to do, whenever we want to do it, and they deserve to be shown a measure of appreciation. What I am suggesting is that you have that small measure of appreciation for the young JEWISH soldiers. Or, at the very least, not kick them out of your shuls or beat them up for walking in the street with their uniform on. Is that too much to ask? IS IT?

The most hilarious aspect of all these anti-israel,anti-Zionist comments is , that on another thread, they rush to congratulate the new Chief rabbis because the National religous rabbis lost. This is the same Chief Rabbinate that the Brisker Rov zz’l (HaKatan’s favorite anti-zionist) called avdodah zoroh and forbade to go into Heichal Shlomo. This is the same Chief rabbinate that has Rav kook zz’l and all the other Chief rabbis prominently displayed in Heichal Shlomo. What is it, guys? Avodah zoroh or the new coming of the messiah?

TOI- Why whould you care on iota about who is Chief Rabbi? The people you associate with don’t eat from its hechsher, don’t get married by its Rabbonim,don’t go to any of the schools/yeshivas that they organize, why would you care? YOU CARE because in Eretz Yisroel, gradually, people start to respect the medinah and its institutions, so youuare trying to control it. That is fair- but beware, the movement is all to the other side! ( allusion intended)

You also missed his entire point that it is the Chareidim’s mesiras nefesh in learning untold hours of learning per day that is keeping the people safe *despite* the shmad of the IDF. You also missed his point that Israel and the IDF wish to shmad the chareidim who they get to join the IDF.’

No, I believe it is you who misses the point. Torah learning goes hand in hand with defending E”Y from our sonim.

yichusdik:

I guess you don’t get it. It is *your* way that is the “chiddush”.

leibidik:

No, I do not agree.

Regarding hakaras haTov to an individual soldier, the OP wrote “Obviously one owes a debt of gratitude to one who does something for you, if he risks his life in doing so, all the more so.” But that’s irrelevant and not his point.

His point was regarding the IDF as a whole, which is an entity of shmad and znus.

The gemara he quoted clearly applies to the IDF as a whole. Its main purpose is as described above, though it obviously does perform military duties, too.

I think the OP wrote it best.

benignuman:

Rav Elchonon HY”D was pretty clear, I thought, in Ikvisa DiMishicha that he considered Zionism to be Avoda Zara and not “lav davka”.

Redefining a Jew, as Zionism does, from a Torah-based oveid Hashem to a Nation/State-based “Hebrew” (i.e. Zionism), seems to qualify as literal avoda zara, in my humble understanding.

The Brisker Rav’s calling Israel the Satan’s greatest triumph since the eigel is, I think, very telling, especially since he was known to measure his words very, very carefully.

But you know better than them and others?

Just because a letter was sent to Mishpacha does not mean they published it. I really hope this letter is a hoax. The YWN should have also investigated it before allowing this thread. Matzav also has another “Mir bachur” letter being commented upon. Maybe someone is trying to drag the honor of Mir thru the mud?

This letter appears to be infused with a phoney Chassidic accent.

ROB- or, again, we’re just happy that theres no-one goren-esque skewing halachah to suit the rosh memshala’s whims.

HaKatan,

I am not saying that R’Elchonon used the words “avoda zara” in a lav davka way. I am saying that R’Elchonon was using avoda zara as a mashul. I highly doubt that R’Elchonon would hold that Israeli flags are assur b’hana, for example, which they would be if Zionism was literaly avoda zara.

Similarly, the Brisker Rav’s statement doesn’t mean that Zionism is an eigel. The Satan is not limited in his tools to literal avoda zara. Rather the Brisker Rav is saying that the Satan was using Zionism as a means to cause Klal Yisroel to stray from the path of Torah.

Zionism isn’t literal avoda zara because it doesn’t require the denial of Hashem or the attribution of divine power to some other being, ChV”Sh, other than Hashem.

zushy: Obviously you cherish R”Avigdor Miller’s zz’l words. Kudos to you but allow me to disagree totally. Please read some of the writigns of Rav Kook zz’k and you will see how klal yisroel has major national aspirations. Or read some of the writings (including kinos) by R’Jehuda halevi.Not to forget many gemoros who deal with our yearning for a new Eretz Yisroel.

Hakatan – repeating “zionism is treif” ad nauseum with your fingers planted firmly in your ears doesn’t make the assertion any more valid.

there is nothing hypothetical about our national responsibilities.

There’s nothing hypothetical about the soldier guarding Meah Shearim, or Bnei Brak, or Geula, or Beitar Illit.

There’s nothing hypothetical about a chareidi soldier walking to his home through any of those areas.

Zushy – its clear to me elements of our responsibility as an Am were taken away from us by our golus and without those opportunities our leaders focused on other observances. Now that we have the opportunity to fulfill them, saying they don’t exist is a chiddush, and denigrating those who do seek to fulfill them is the same as making fun of or putting down or not recognizing the effort of someone who is doing any other mitzvah.

R’ Wasserman is quoted as saying that if you make kivush more important than all the other mitzvos, its avodoh zoro. He’s right. But that applies to every single mitzvo, except, perhaps, recognizing HKBH’s soveriegnty or veohavto loreacho komocho.

No one made kivush the only mitzvo of importance, except perhaps the anti zionists who wanted to erect it as a straw man they could later pull down.

You can make A’Z out of anything, or anyone, too.