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From the begining of klal yisrael,the outer garment of a ben yisrael reached down past the knees. This has its source in torah sh’baal pe, that part of torah that until today has not been written in books. Around 250 years ago,there were groups who wished to adopt the ways of the goyim, and they removed the levush yehudi.In subsequent generations there were groups who did not completely follow torah sh’baal pe, and they too removed the levush yehudi.This also includes removing the beard, also an important part of tora sh’baal pe. These actions have even infiltrated some groups who consider themselves ‘the cream of the crop’. If we would follow all the ways of the torah we would have alot more to celebrate. (This has to do with the special connection that Hashem has with His people-something that surprisingly, not all groups are aware of). I welcome your comments.
This has its source in torah sh’baal pe, that part of torah that until today has not been written in books.
You’ll have to provide a better source than that.
Well said.
Can you prove that there is a source in Torah Sheba’al Peh for having clothes reach past your ankles and that you should have a beard? Thanks.
See Igros Moshe YD 1:81,Rav Moshe’s thoughts.
Your post was a little cryptic, but it seems you are concerned why people don’t all have beards.
I was told that, early-to-mid last century in Europe, the gedolim were mesakein that guys should shave (obviously in a kosher way), perhaps for shidduch reasons.
My assumption is that the reasons for that takana are even stronger today, for most places/people.
In addition, our society today does not operate like that of yesteryear, and what may have worked then does not necessarily work now; provided there are no halachic objections (as in none at all), then Rabbanim can make adjustments to non-halachic areas, as per the societal needs (not its wants, but its needs) and shaving in a kosher manner does not appear to violate halacha.
The mishna berura actually brings certain people who should have beards. One can derive from here that there will be those who don’t have beards; he’s not implying, CH”V, that those who do not have beards are therefore ovrei aveirah.
Finally, typical klei kodesh do indeed have beards.
If we would follow the ways of the Tora and not pasul everyone who is not exactly like us we would have much more to celebrate (my English teachers said that “a lot” is a parcel of land).
What are your sources? Do you know that “Chassidic dress” is a copy of the dress of the Polish aristocracy of 300 years ago (the only levush yehudi today is jeans as they were invented by Levi Strauss when he saw that miners needed strong pants – trousers to British-speakers)? Do you know that (at least according to Agnon)the Polish authorities mandated the streimel because they thought that it was a sign of disgrace? Do you know that many gedolei Tora wore short suit jackets – and this is, in fact, the norm in the Lithuanian yeshiva world? Do you know that in mussar yeshivot it was actually assur for a bachur to grow a beard as it was considered gaava?
there is a major yeshiva , Chofetz Chaim that does NOT want its Bochrim to wear beards until they are learned enough
I read an article about this a couple months ago. It seems OP is correct, that there was a levush yehudi. At some point, the goyim outlawed it, and the litvaks stopped wearing it, but the chassidim refused. Ultimately, the chassidim settled with the goyim that they would wear the similar garb of the noblemen, which is what they continue to wear today.
Thus, the chassidim are really more correct about this. However, I have not reverted to their dress, since my rebbeim don’t.
The way of some is to put forth chumros and claim some mekor for them when there is really none or almost none.
the only true Levush Yehudi is the “Badge of Shame” first forced upon the jews in the Venice and Rome Ghettos of the middle ages and then copied by the Nazi’s
“he is joining the Yeshiva world.”
loooooooooooool
I assume he meant the CR -95
Mordern: I find that hard to believe. Tefillin is a Mitzvah D’Oraisa that saves one from the most Chamur of Onshin. A black hat is… well, it can be a lot of things, but one thing it definitely isn’t is Tefillin.
Popa’s correct. The Litvaks were forced by the goyim to stop wearing Jewish levush like long jackets, while the Chasidim persisted in continuing to wear traditional Jewish garb.
From the begining of klal yisrael,the outer garment of a ben yisrael reached down past the knees.
Shabbos 12a is mefurash not like you. See Rashi s.v. Meida Yad’i.
yitayningwut,
I think the pashut pshat is that ????? is the opposite of ????? ??? ???? ????.
pba: I’m pretty sure I know the Mishpacha article you’re talking about. If we’re talking about the same one, it was a very misleading piece albeit unintentionally. It reported that a Yerushalmi tailor claimed that the levush he makes was the levush the avos wore. Then it reports that chassidish levush was banned (it was about 150 years out of style when that happened). There is no evidence, Mishpacha articles notwithstanding, that the avos wore striped caftans that buttoned right over left. They also probably did not wear shtreimlech made from the tails of animals native to northern Europe.
Rav Tzvi Yehudah Kook defined Jewish Levush as “tzitzis and tefillin.”
Itche:
I don’t recall the article precisely, and it makes little difference to me what the avos wore. But I don’t think the article actually claimed there was evidence as to what they wore.
The main point of the article to me, is that there actually used to be a uniquely Jewish mode of dress- not how it originally developed. The oft repeated canard that the chassidim are just stuck 2 centuries ago is false, since they don’t wear it to be old fashioned- they wear it because it is and was uniquely Jewish.
Again, I am currently wearing dress shoes, dress slacks, a dress shirt, and a green fleece because this middle american starbucks is freezing. My rebbeim don’t wear the levush, so I don’t. If they would have, I probably would have as well.
klei kodesh: those who teach Torah or learn in kollel, I assume. I guess that makes me a kli tomay, hence my shaved face.
;
From the begining of klal yisrael,the outer garment of a ben yisrael reached down past the knees.
That’s good. I wear pants. They reach below my knees.
For that matter, black clothing was considered a sign of mourning or being on trial and white clothing was a sign of joy. Thus, Jews wore white on Shabbat and even on Rosh HaShana in order to show confidence in Hashem’s mercy. In fact, the Arizal is quoted in Shaar HaKavenot as making a frightening statement about wearing black on Shabbat. Ashkenazi poskim point out that the talmidei chachamim of Pumpedita wore black clokes on Shabbat (Shabbat 147a). The Ben Ish Hai, on the other hand, paskens not to (Halachot Shana Shenia Parashat Lech Lecha Halacha 18). However, Rav Ovadia (lesheetato not to pasken according to Kabbala) says that the minhag of all gedolei hador today is to wear black suits and someone who wears white is acting incorrectly and should be instructed not to change from the minahg of the gedolim (Yalkut Yosef 262:2 in the name of Halichot Olam Part 4).
Thus we see that what is considered proper clothing can change from time to time and place to place although a talmid chacham should not wear either very cheap or very expensive clothing but nice, moderate, clean clothing (Rambam Hilchot Deot 5:9).
As long as you look Jewish and everyone can tell you are a Jew i think is all that matters.
A black hat is… well, it can be a lot of things, but one thing it definitely isn’t is Tefillin”
I believe with all my heart, Moshe Rabbeinu did not wear a Borsalino. Neither did Aharon haKohein. And in fact, if one wanted to emulate HIS mode of dress, it would not fly. They wore levush Yehudi. And the zechus of Bnei Yisroel was that they did not change their levush Yehudi, which I venture a guess resembles nothing that we wear today.
DaasYochid –
I don’t think so. Short is not the opposite of wide, and for some reason Rashi forgot to mention in this case that he was talking about sleeves? Besides, one would imagine that if something was short because they worked in the fields it was the entire garment, so it shouldn’t get caught and what not. I would assume Rashi means they wore something akin to a shirt and pants.
I would like to second Oomis. In addition, there is a question as to the correct girsa — if ” lo shinu malbusham” should be there or not.
oomis: the folllowing is from another web site:
History of Straw hats and Felt hats – Giuseppe Borsalino The story of this company began in 1857, in Alessandria Italy; when Giuseppe Borsalino, a true pioneer and captain of industry, set up the first artisan workshop for the production of felt hats.
Ma’amad Har Sinai was in 2448— giving ample time for Moshe and Aharon, not to mention Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov to buy Borsalinos.
🙂
A Kohen had to walk up a ramp and not steps so he wouldn’t expose himself when lifting his feet for the next step. So sounds like he wore a robe and no underwear!?!
Ma’amad Har Sinai was in 2448— giving ample time for Moshe and Aharon, not to mention Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov to buy Borsalinos.
🙂 “
LOL!
Yitayningwut,
Yes, short is not the opposite of wide, but ????? can (and does, in this case,) mean narrow, not short.
The clothing of the ??? ????? created an issue of ??? ??? (in other words the men’s clothing was visually similar to the women’s) because, says ??”?, their clothing, as opposed to the ??? ?????? (who had ?????), was ????? ??? ???. In context, clearly ????? means the opposite of ?????.
The ???? then contrasts the clothing of the ????? to that of the ?????. The ????? had ????? that, says ??”?, were ????? ?????, and those of the ????? ??????? were ?????, so they were ????? ?? ???. The ?????, however, had ????? that, says ??”?, were ????? and therefore dissimilar to the men’s ?????. Again, clearly, ????? is the opposite of ?????.
He wore short pants under the robe.
2sense, so are you wearing long robe and a turban these days?
Gemara Peshachim(109) talks about women in Bavel wore colored clothing and in Eretz Yisrael they like pressed linen.
pba: They are stuck two centuries ago. They dress like Jews did two centuries ago, not like Jews do today. Obviously the only true “way Jews dress today” is how I dress. 😉
itche: I’m having a hard time parsing the serious part of your comment from the facetious part.
Sam, actually in Mishnaic Hebrew ???? refers to a special professional cleaning method. The gemara you cited does not say that they wore these garments all of tthe time as you implied. It says that these are the types of garments that give a woman simcha and are therefore what a man should give his wife for yom tov.
pba: Keep at it. If you find a part that isn’t facetious, let me know.
Avik: gachutz is ironed,and from the gemara it implies diff styles in diff places.
DaasYochid – You’re right.
Yitayningwut,
You’re a mentch.
Yitayningwut,
You’re a mentch.
You can’t bring a ???? from one incident. You can say this was menshlich, but meheicha teisi he is a mensh?
popa_bar_abba,
You’re a retard.
You can’t bring a ???? from one incident.
I wasn’t. Yitaynigwut has demonstrated his mentchlichkeit before.
Thanks DaasYochid.
OneOfMany – lol.
Sam, from the gemara (Taanit 29b) it is clear that ????? was a type of special cleaning job. The only question is regarding the exact method. Some say that the garment was rubbed with a stone (Ritva and Aruch) whereas others say that special materials were used (Nimukei Yosef). According to both opinions the garment came out cleaner. Both opinions are brought by the Shulchan Aruch (OC 551:3). He goes on to say that being that today we do not launder with water alone all laundering is considered ?????.In Modern Hebrew ????? is ironing.
2sense, all these claims of “the oral tradition” in addition to the Gemora is a pure Gilui Panim ba’Torah she’lo ke’Halochah. When some want to impose chumros all ha’Tzibur, they justify it with these type of stories.
2sense: Every one of those sources you mention is a source. They don’t say things on their own and cite it to “Torah Sheba’al Peh”. They all have actual sources for everything they say.
2sense
“”The long outer garment is not a chassidishe levush, it is a yiddishe levush(levush yehudi)””
Funny, I guess the every Litvish and Yekke Rav who wears a suit must not be sartorially jewish. (FWIW Rav Chaim Ozer was Litvish)
“As for those at yeshiva CHAFETZ CHAIM who feel the need to remove their beard”
Do not focus on Yeshivas Chofetz Chaim. What about the European yeshivos of Slabodka, Hildesheimer Rabbinical Seminary, Mir, and others where the students shaved? Why are they exempt from your anti-depilatory remarks?
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