December 23, 2020 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #1931320
Would it be a good idea to prohibit US presidential pardons in the period from October 1 of a presidential election year until the following January 21? I don’t know whether that would be constitutional, but please consider the idea notwithstanding its possible unconstitutionality.
I think it would be a good idea, as it would require pardons to be disclosed before a presidential election. And please remember, this would apply to all presidents of all parties, not just the ones you love or hate.December 23, 2020 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #1931367
No, it would not be a good idea. That’s aside from the extreme unlikelihood of getting a constitutional amendment passed.
This country needs less people in prison not more. Save your energies to reduce the prison population; not prevent its decrease.
End prison for white-collor crime; reserve it for violent crimes only, where it is only used to prevent reoccurrence of violence.December 23, 2020 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #1931371
The rich who commit white color crimes unecessarily go free whereas tbe poor stay in prison. Pardoning killing Iraqi civilians can create national security concerns.December 23, 2020 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #1931374akupermaParticipant
The power to pardon, for any reason, goes back to the very beginning of the country. Most people are outraged when their enemies are pardoned, and delighted with their friends are. Especially in systems where judges are unelected, it gives the people another avenue for input on the criminal justice system.December 23, 2020 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1931390
Reb Eliezer: The proper punishment for white collar crime is repayment of damages plus a fine. (Check your local Bible.) Prison is counter-productive. Put white collar criminals to indentured servitude (in whatever area of business they are professionals in) and use the proceeds of their work to repay the victims.December 23, 2020 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #1931424
ujm, did the white collared criminals pardoned pay for the damages?December 23, 2020 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #1931416
We have an adage in computers ‘gigo’, garbage in garbage out which can be apllied on Trump.December 23, 2020 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #1931445
Trump with his pardon power has revealed himself. The emperor has no clothes. If he protected me, I will pardon him no matter what he did otherwise.December 23, 2020 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1931451
I presume the power of the pardon – power over life – that President and Governors have are a source of the bracha when seeing them.December 23, 2020 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #1931478
Folks, I did not ask about the pardon power in general. My focus is on prohibiting pardons for a short period around presidential elections, which would force an incumbent president to disclose his pardon intentions before he/she stands for re-election. Come on, people, focus.December 23, 2020 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #1931486
After the Kushner pardon there can be no question that anyone who still supports Trump opposes traditional moral values.December 24, 2020 8:31 am at 8:31 am #1931494
No. The problem is not with the power to pardon, it is that we elected a moral degenerate crook as President.December 24, 2020 8:34 am at 8:34 am #1931557Avi KParticipant
UJM, the fact that a criminal did not use violence does not mean that he did not cause great damage to people. Look at what Madoff did. I personally knew someone who had to go back to America and live with his daughter because of that guy. for that matter, the record holder for longest prison term (845 years) caused an insurance policy to go bankrupt. People who had been depending on annuities they bought lost them. Some elderly people lost their life savings. There are also many who trick elderly people into giving them all their money.December 24, 2020 8:39 am at 8:39 am #1931549
‘After the Kushner pardon there can be no question that anyone who still supports Trump opposes traditional moral values.’
President Clinton pardoned his half-brother Roger.
Does supporting him oppose “traditional moral values”?December 24, 2020 8:39 am at 8:39 am #1931559TGIShabbosParticipant
Re Eliezer, Charliehall, you 2 are smart men. Certainly you’d know that Presidenrs Obama, Bush, Clinton pardoned more individuals than President Trump. There isn’t any unusual outliers here. Let’s stick with facts.December 24, 2020 10:02 am at 10:02 am #1931630
@ujm, I am usually in agreement with most of your comments, I disagree on this one, Frum white collar criminals make it a lot harder for frum people play in a level playing field because they are viewed as dishonest people. I had to work twice as hard to show people that I am a honest person because I am a visibly frum person.
One of the main reason jails exsist is as a deterent, knowing you may end up spending 10 years locked up makes a thinking person think twice before they commit a crime.December 24, 2020 10:02 am at 10:02 am #1931632
To MadeAliyah: Permit me to answer the question you posed. Yes, supporting Bill Clinton opposes some moral values. I voted for him in 1992, and for Bob Dole in 1996. Some of us put a high value on high values.
But now it’s morning in America, by which I am referring only to the clock. It’s afternoon in Europe, evening in Asia, and 10th of Tevet in Australia, where many restaurants a closed, making it easier to fast. Trump has issued a bunch of pardons that he did not announce before the election. For you Trump voters, would any of his pardons have changed your vote?December 24, 2020 10:03 am at 10:03 am #1931634CTLAWYERParticipant
You cannot legitimately compare the numbers of pardons issued in a two term Presidency with those Trump has issued in a one term stint of office.December 24, 2020 11:10 am at 11:10 am #1931649midwesternerParticipant
Bill Clinton 456 pardons, commutations and clemencies in 8 years
Barak Obama 1715 in 8 years
Donald Trump 92 in 4 years
GIYFDecember 24, 2020 11:11 am at 11:11 am #1931650yaakov doeParticipant
Trump’s pardons of Manafort, Roger Stone and the other co conspirators is a good thing. They can now all be compelled by Congress to testify about the 2016 election without the ability to plead the 5th.
Trump made a huge mistake pardoning them. It will haunt him in future.December 24, 2020 11:11 am at 11:11 am #1931651midwesternerParticipant
George W Bush 200 in 8 years
George HW Bush 75 in 4 years
Ronald Reagan 406 in 8 years
Jimmy Carter 566 in 4 yearsDecember 24, 2020 11:12 am at 11:12 am #1931655
All the Mueller hoax pardons were well deserved.December 24, 2020 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #1931680pekakParticipant
Any POTUS has the right to issue pardons and clemencies at will to any person he so chooses from the day he is inaugurated until the day he leaves.December 24, 2020 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #1931690
“Does supporting him oppose “traditional moral values”?”
I agree 100% with what Joe Lieberman said about Bill Clinton on the floor of the US Senate on September 3, 1998. (I’d give a link but the moderators probably would not allow it; you can find it easily on the internet.) And that was before Clinton’s pardon of his brother, or of his pardon of Marc Rich, or of the communtation of the sentences of the four Rockland County Chasidim. The commutations for the Chasidim earned both Bill and Hillary huge support from the frum community.December 24, 2020 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #1931691
GW Bush and Obama didn’t pardon cronies. Both appear to have been sickened by what Clinton did shortly before leaving office and what Trump is doing is worse. Most of Obama’s clemency actions weren’t pardons but commutations for minor drug offenses. There is no comparison.December 24, 2020 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #1931692
The number does not matter but the reason.December 24, 2020 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #1931700
Oh Charlie, -“After the Kushner pardon there can be no question that anyone who still supports Trump opposes traditional moral values.”
Did you say the same thing about your Idol Obama?!?
Do you think it’s Moral to pardon Drug pushers?!?
I said Pushers, not Addicts.December 24, 2020 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1931717
Obama was not impeached.December 24, 2020 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #1931731
Presidential pardons and the Electoral College should not exist in any democracy, least of all in the US.
But Trump didn’t invent them, the Founding Fathers did, so to quote @Charlie Hall in ‘Mandtory Vaccines’:
You don’t like that? You are living in the wrong country.December 24, 2020 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1931755Amil ZolaParticipant
Here in the US it is typical that a president review the clemency and pardon requests via the DOJ before granting same. Our current president has a disregarded that part of the process.December 24, 2020 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #1931756
It was instituted for mercy when someone circumstances forced him to commit the crime as stealing to feed one’s child. An addict steals to satisfy his addiction.December 24, 2020 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1931764
RE -“An addict steals to satisfy his addiction”
That makes sense.
But why did Obama pardon Drug pushers?!?
Do you know simple English – difference between a Drug Pusher & a Drug Abuser?!?December 24, 2020 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #1931763
>> Presidential pardons and the Electoral College should not exist in any democracy,
this country is not a democracy, it is a Republic. Unless your family were navigators on Mayflower, they should have known where they are coming – and passed this information to you.
Seriously, I am interested to find out where this breakdown happen? Did you talk with your parents or teachers about this ever?December 24, 2020 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1931778
Obama had not personal benefit in any of his pardons.December 24, 2020 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #1931783
“this country is not a democracy, it is a Republic.”
You are technically correct, however there is a separation of powers and pardoning interferes with Judicial.
My point is; isn’t it amazing how those who claim that Trump doesn’t care about the law criticize him for using it?December 24, 2020 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #1931792
commonsaychel: We should use Torah as our guide on right and wrong and on what proper punishments are. In the Torah jailing is exceedingly rare as a punishment, and never is it utilized for financial crimes.December 24, 2020 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #1931802
ujm, on the certain circumstances one would be starved in a kuppa.December 24, 2020 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1931799
ujm: In the Torah jailing is exceedingly rar
On the other hand, I understand that the mitzva for non-Jews to establish justice is a general requirement, not limited to specific punishments we have. This would make it OK (and a mitzva of assisting non-Jews in their mitzva) for Jews to be lawyers in any just system, like in USA.
Would it make sense for us to advocate for punishments closer to the Torah laws? Also, need to be more careful. In the classic case of Romans accusation of difference in Jewish law between a Jew and non-Jew paying half or full for animal damages: a Jew is obligated to watch his animal, so we presume that the damage is inadvertent. So, you need to look at society: if you can still millions of dollars and risk only monetary punishment (that you can probably pay from venture capital!), maybe this will not be a deterrent.
On the other hand, we are supposed to be light to goyim, so maybe explaining our approach – what is the purpose of punishment? do we need to always have imprisonment? etc – might help people look the issue differently.
Relevant to the topic – there was minimal public discussion of Trump’s prison reform. At the debate, Biden said that he wanted to do it (saying this before someone jumps in saying that there was no real reform) also but could not “because – Republicans”.December 24, 2020 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #1931828GadolhadorahParticipant
Since there is considerable uncertainty and disagreement among legal scholars as to whether the Trumpkopf can pardon himself, he will likely resign the morning of January 20th, fly back to Mar a Lago, and while he is in the air, President (for 3 hours) Pence will issue a full and complete pardon of the FORMER President.December 24, 2020 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #1931832
If the country passed a law with a ten year jail sentence for anyone who crossed the street illegally when the pedestrian light was red and said Don’t Walk, would you say that falls under the Torah rubric of goyim establishing laws and a justice system per the Sheva Mitzvos? Of course not. The fact is that the current laws are way out of whack and extremely and unjustifiably harsh.December 24, 2020 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #1931829
@ujm, Title 18 of the USC and the fifty state penal codes to what governs the Criminal Justice system in the US, the rest is irrelevantDecember 24, 2020 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #1931848
ujm: crossed the street illegally when the pedestrian light was red
I agree that there is a limit somewhere, I am just not sure where. How about Sharia justice of cutting hands off. Some of our sources suggest that Noahide laws are harsher than Jewish ones, with easier death penalty. Anyone has sources for more detailed guidance? I only recall that there are 2 approaches: Noahides should follow Jewish halakhot for them, or that they should just establish general justice. I am also trying to make a point that falls in between these two approaches: we may want to encourage what we think is more just, but should not deny that we live in a just society, even if it is not perfect.December 24, 2020 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #1931873
RE -“Obama had not personal benefit in any of his pardons.”
Maybe not, but Pardoning Drug Pushers is definitely Immoral!December 26, 2020 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #1932113
I am thrilled and delighted that my opening post has prompted such an enlightened, informed discussion of the US presidential power of pardon. Probably the greatest contribution to this discussion was from Pekak – read it for yourself, as it defies summarization.
But I (the opening poster) asked a much narrower question, which I further narrowed in my second post: Among those of you who voted for Trump, would you have voted for him if you knew about the pardons he issued for his machitin, his campaign staff, those Congressmen convicted of insider trading and others he announced after the election? And my original question was, should the president be allowed to issue pardons after he can no longer run for office?December 26, 2020 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #1932133
Alexander Hamilton on the pardoning power of the President, in Federalist Paper No. 74:
“He is also to be authorized to grant “reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, EXCEPT IN CASES OF IMPEACHMENT.” Humanity and good policy conspire to dictate, that the benign prerogative of pardoning should be as little as possible fettered or embarrassed. The criminal code of every country partakes so much of necessary severity, that without an easy access to exceptions in favor of unfortunate guilt, justice would wear a countenance too sanguinary and cruel. As the sense of responsibility is always strongest, in proportion as it is undivided, it may be inferred that a single man would be most ready to attend to the force of those motives which might plead for a mitigation of the rigor of the law, and least apt to yield to considerations which were calculated to shelter a fit object of its vengeance. The reflection that the fate of a fellow-creature depended on his sole fiat, would naturally inspire scrupulousness and caution; the dread of being accused of weakness or connivance, would beget equal circumspection, though of a different kind. On the other hand, as men generally derive confidence from their numbers, they might often encourage each other in an act of obduracy, and might be less sensible to the apprehension of suspicion or censure for an injudicious or affected clemency. On these accounts, one man appears to be a more eligible dispenser of the mercy of government, than a body of men.”December 26, 2020 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #1932152
Charlie, I don’t understand what he is saying. One person can do what Trump is doing, whereas a group of people will stop this type of behavior.December 28, 2020 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #1932707anonymous JewParticipant
Obama commuted the sentence of Oscar Lopez Rivera, an unrepentant FALN terrorist. FALN carried out 130 bomb attacks in the U.S.December 28, 2020 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #1932760
Anonymous New -“Obama commuted the sentence of Oscar Lopez Rivera, an unrepentant FALN terrorist. FALN carried out 130 bomb attacks in the U.S.”
Clinton also wanted to pardon/commute him, but with conditions.
Obama didn’t care, even though the bombings mained a lot of people & Killed a Few!
“Oh Charlie, -“After the Kushner pardon there can be no question that anyone who still supports Trump opposes traditional moral values.”
So to all Libs – who’s More Immoral – Trump or Obama?!?December 28, 2020 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #1932793
Oscar Lopez Rivera served 36 years in prison, and his sentence was commuted when he was more than 60 years old. I have no problem with any of Trump’s pardons if the pardonees have served half their time and are older than 50. But that does not address my question, folks. Would you Trump voters have voted differently if you had known about Trump’s post- election before the election? Would you want President Biden exercising his pardon power after he loses the election in 2024? If he pardons Hunter?
And, ujm, are you being paid for your posts?December 28, 2020 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #1932826
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