Lo sichanem

Coffee, great question. I don’t think it was because of any love for paroh; I think it was because he knew his family would be in mitzrayim and needed to foster good relations with the king. It’s no different than how we daven for the welfare of our host countries; we benefit, so it’s not b’chinom.

Nom, German jews didn’t believe that their rescue from antisemitism was assimilation? That was the intent of the reform; be a Jew in the house and a German in the street. Be like them, blend in, and they won’t bother us. I don’t know what’s inaccurate about that.

I’m not sure what you mean by keil echad bara’am; chazal clearly teach that jews are a vastly different creation, to the point where the kuzari says that a yid is a 5th level of creation, after man. Are you referring to the medrash about how anyone can be a tzadik regardless of how they were born? That’s true, and there’s a place for chasidei umos haolam, but keeping 7 mitzvos is very different from 613.

The comment was in the article on Jewish public school children being abused. Rather than learn the obvious lesson, that jews dont belong in public school, where they will learn about 10 genders and the their alter zeides were chimpanzees, this commentor decided that to end anti semitism, we need to teach our children not to exclude ainom yehudim from our prayers.

“We must start teaching our children and Bochurom, that all of mankind, adults and children, Yidden and Non-Yidden, are precious in the eyes of the Creator, Hashem Yisborach.”

Chaviv adam, but chavivim yisroel… Much more so, for they are called children.

“Our children should see, that we worry about the well-being of every person and we never exclude any person, from our Teffilohs, when we Daven for Refuah Shleimo. We must never exclude Non-Yidden who are R”L not well.”

Except for the fact that it is against halacha to daven for them, and our prayers constantly refer to yisroel, exclusively.

“That will strengthen our empathy and concern for all Human Beings, for Yidden and for Non-Yidden, regardless of what kind of mother they were born to. That will be M’oirer Rachmei Shomayim.”

So it makes no difference to this person which kind of mother they are born to. Well, to the Torah, it makes a pretty big difference. I wonder what this person would do if their children, following this idea of equality, married ainom yehudim – would they sit shiva, or lovingly accept the spouse into the family, because after all what difference does it make, and they’ll raise the kids “Jewish”?

“HKB”H will, Never-Again, instigate any Hatred or Pogroms or Holocausts against us.”

Actually, this is what caused the Holocaust

Aaq, not at all, because yidden benefit from the king knowing that his Jewish subjects pray for him

Avi, rabbi kook loved lots of things. He called Rembrandt, a proste goy,a “tzadik” because he happened to draw a portrait of the tosfos yom tov. His hashkofos are not mainstream. His son’s aren’t either.

Where do chazal say to love goyim?

You are correct that chazal say that we do those things, visiting sick, tzedaka… doesn’t say it’s a mitzvah. It says it keeps the peace. Keeping peace is a huge deal.

Davening for someone because you have hakaras hatov is also not b’chinam, and that might include a non Jewish soldier as well. No chiddush there.

The magen avrohom stands, against….rabbi kook? Sorry, doesn’t work that way.

Nom, no, i did not admit that everyone’s well-being is important to everyone. I do not benefit if my non Jewish neighbor is healthy or not.

I said in my original post that when there’s a benefit to a yid, it is no longer lo sichanem, but it has to be a real benefit, not some philosophical “we’re all connected” hookey.

Cs, good question; you’re touching on a machlokes…well, perhaps one. There is a meiri which says that many of the injunctions chazal made with akum don’t apply – he doesn’t specify how many, if i recall – because today’s goyim believe in Hashem, on some level, for the most part. He does agree, however, that things like bishul akum, stam yainon, do apply.

The rambam famously held that the issur hanaah no longer applies to stam yainon for this reason, but halacha doesn’t follow his shitoh.

And some yekkishe rabbonim quote the meiri. In their timw and piece, it was advantageous and it’s not clear how seriously they meant it. However, the meiri was not known in the achronims time, and the chazon ish says that we don’t overturn achronim because we find rishonim later on.

Back to lo sichanem; if we don’t go with the meiri, we have no shailoh; we are not permitted to give free presents or compliments to any goy, which answers your 2nd question about “stam” goyim nowadays. I disagree, though, that stam goyim wish to make the world a better place. Many say that they do, but you of all people know what the Tanya says at the end of the first perek about chessed le’umim chatas, which is why I’m surprised at your stance on this issue.

As for chasidei umos haolam, one of my rebbeim showed me a source in a chabad sefer (maybe you know which one) which says that the shoresh neshoma of a chosid umos haolam os the same as a yisroel. Ger toshav has its set of laws, and I don’t believe lo sichanem applies to them. Hashavas aveidah, if i remember correctly, applies to them, and not stam goyim.

Nom, i would think so. If you’re driving at the idea that “this goys health must affect SOME jew somewhere” i disagree. And a person needs to know where their intentions lie. We’re taught by this mitzvah not to have special love for ainom yehudim. Derech eretz, yes, not cheating, stealing, certainly! But to go above and beyond when there’s no hakaras hatov or benefit, is forbidden. And according to your view, the magen avrohom wouldn’t have said it was assur to so so if on some level a yid benefits everytime a goy is prosperous.

Nom, we feel compassion for animals too. We don’t say yagiu rachamecha on them, however. A jew feels compassion for everyone, but davening or bentching them is too far. Every value has limits; this is why they’re called middos, measurements, and are measured by the crucible of Halacha.

See the chazon ish in emunah ubitachon, this is one of his central themes. Mussar helps you feel, but halacha directs those feelings. Mussar tells you to have rachmanus on the oppressed, but Halacha tells you who is in fact, the oppressed. When these definitions are inverted, catastrophic consequences ensue.

Cs, the rishonim say that chasidei umos haolam must keep all 7 mitzvos bekavanah…im sorry, but most if not almost all goyim today do not, simply because they wouldn’t support the death penalty for toevoa or ni’uf…and the 7th mitzvah is dinin, tbat they need to make courts which carry out the other 6.

Based on the tanya, the michtav meliyahu and others connect it with the rambams shitah that to get into olam haba, one must do s mitzvah totally lishma at some point in their lives. Jews have that capacity, and goyim naturally do not. However they can if thdy work themselves very, very hard, and such people become chasidei umos haolam, like iyov. The “no tzad tov” of the tanya refers to being able to do such a mitzvah, according to rav dessler.

I believe rav dessler got it from rav tzadok hakohen of Lublin, but i don’t remember.

What you quoted from the rambam about lo sichanem is not true; please look it up and you’ll see.

Re, yekkishe rabbonim… it’s not my chidush. Many heterim and attitudes expressed by them have been said to have been horaas shaos to save their community from reform, which was devastating German jewry. Does that mean regular teshuvos from rav hirsch in shemesh merapeh are suspect? Not at all. We’re talking about things like mixed singing at the Shabbos table, handshaking, etc…things that ehrlicher yidden don’t normally do.

Marx – do you not believe that the Torahs promise of punishment in this world, should the jews sin, is true?

There was never a phenomenon of so many jews leaving Torah as there was before the Holocaust. That’s not cherry picking. It’s reading the bible.

During other calamities, such as the gezerah of Purim, did jews say like you…well, we never really know why…so let’s just go about our ways and pray it goes away? No! They did teshuva. They identified their mistakes, that they enjoyed the meal lf achashverosh.

Had you been alive in Shushan, you would have opposed Mordechai. And you would have put us all in danger.

Tach vetat was unclear, which is why the tosfos yom tov asked about it in shomayim. And he was given an answer. Talking in shul is a big deal up there. Were you aware of that?

If we determine spiritual, neshoma questions with our own personal experiences… it’s not the way sifrei mussar and chasidus operate. Neshomos have mechanics and definition… the tanya is speaking about the neshoma of a goy.

I sharply disagree with what you quoted from the last Lubavitcher Rebbe for other reasons, too. Most goyim commit forms of theft that they don’t consider thievery, such as not being exact in clocking in and out of work, cutting in line, waking people up,cheating on tests, and other such things.

They also curse Hashem r”l a lot. Ever hear a goy say “oh my (,blank) god”? It’s a chiyuv misah.