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April 23, 2023 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2183061
I’m writing this because i noticed a comment in an article about antisemitism in public schools. One commentor opined that we’d be better off with antisemites if we treated all people equally as children of god, etc..
I didn’t capitalize the word god, because he and I worship a different deity.
My G-d said bonim atem, You are bonim. Atem kruim bomim…
My G-d commmanded lo sichanem, do not give them free gifts.
This includes davening or blessing ainom yehudim, in violation of lo sichanem. See magen avrohom 189:1.
When a yehudi has a benefit from the person’s healing, such as if he is an employee and he needs the work, then it is permitted (see chaim b’yad, 33, from rav chaim palagi)
This response to antisemitism is like drinking salt water to quench one’s thirst. It just makes it worse. German jews became reform and intermarried thinking that it would stop antisemitism, and it only created a monster of unparalleled proportions.
Work on actual mitzvos if you want to hold back antisemitism. Especially separation from the umos haolam, as chazal say, quoted in rashi on vayikra 20, 26. “I have separated you from the amim to be mine”
“If you aee separate from them, then you are mine.
And if not, then you belong to Nevuchadnetzar and his friends/ilk”
ואבדל אתכם מן העמים להיות לי” – אם אתם מובדלים מהם הרי אתם שלי ואם לאו הרי אתם של נבוכדנצר וחביריו
Don’t repeat the mistakes of the past. Embrace Torah, not your own designs. Don’t say beshrirus libi eilech, that peace will be with me as i go in the ways I fashioned on my own…. Listen to the roadmap Hashem gave us.April 23, 2023 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #2183097ujmParticipant
Avira, Yasher Koach. You’ve said everything that needs to be said on this.April 23, 2023 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #2183123☕️coffee addictParticipant
“This includes davening or blessing ainom yehudim, in violation of lo sichanem. See magen avrohom 189:1.
Interesting, because didn’t Ya’akov keep כל התורה כולה? He blessed pharaoh!April 23, 2023 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #2183126
Your conflating completely different ideas.
אל אחד בראם is not an endorsement for assimilation.
Your theory of German Jewish History is not accurate.
I don’t know where to find the article. What exactly (not a general feeling) did the author suggest that is in your opinion forbidden?
Just to be clear, I do not endorse assimilation in any form.April 23, 2023 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #2183198
Coffee, great question. I don’t think it was because of any love for paroh; I think it was because he knew his family would be in mitzrayim and needed to foster good relations with the king. It’s no different than how we daven for the welfare of our host countries; we benefit, so it’s not b’chinom.
Nom, German jews didn’t believe that their rescue from antisemitism was assimilation? That was the intent of the reform; be a Jew in the house and a German in the street. Be like them, blend in, and they won’t bother us. I don’t know what’s inaccurate about that.
I’m not sure what you mean by keil echad bara’am; chazal clearly teach that jews are a vastly different creation, to the point where the kuzari says that a yid is a 5th level of creation, after man. Are you referring to the medrash about how anyone can be a tzadik regardless of how they were born? That’s true, and there’s a place for chasidei umos haolam, but keeping 7 mitzvos is very different from 613.
The comment was in the article on Jewish public school children being abused. Rather than learn the obvious lesson, that jews dont belong in public school, where they will learn about 10 genders and the their alter zeides were chimpanzees, this commentor decided that to end anti semitism, we need to teach our children not to exclude ainom yehudim from our prayers.
“We must start teaching our children and Bochurom, that all of mankind, adults and children, Yidden and Non-Yidden, are precious in the eyes of the Creator, Hashem Yisborach.”
Chaviv adam, but chavivim yisroel… Much more so, for they are called children.
“Our children should see, that we worry about the well-being of every person and we never exclude any person, from our Teffilohs, when we Daven for Refuah Shleimo. We must never exclude Non-Yidden who are R”L not well.”
Except for the fact that it is against halacha to daven for them, and our prayers constantly refer to yisroel, exclusively.
“That will strengthen our empathy and concern for all Human Beings, for Yidden and for Non-Yidden, regardless of what kind of mother they were born to. That will be M’oirer Rachmei Shomayim.”
So it makes no difference to this person which kind of mother they are born to. Well, to the Torah, it makes a pretty big difference. I wonder what this person would do if their children, following this idea of equality, married ainom yehudim – would they sit shiva, or lovingly accept the spouse into the family, because after all what difference does it make, and they’ll raise the kids “Jewish”?
“HKB”H will, Never-Again, instigate any Hatred or Pogroms or Holocausts against us.”
Actually, this is what caused the HolocaustApril 23, 2023 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #2183203Yabia OmerParticipant
I think the kamatz under the ches is pronounced “O” in this case. And also there’s no chirik under the saf.April 23, 2023 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #2183213
R Soloveichik developed an approach of interacting with the non-Jewish religions on the matters of the world – peace, etc, but no dialog on religious matters.April 24, 2023 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #2183317
According to the Chasam Sofer and Meshech Chachma anti-Semitism helps against assimilation. This is the meaning in the Hagadah on והיא שעמדה their hatred towards us protects us. See also SA O’CH 156 what is considered a’z. Lo sichanem is selling land in EY.April 24, 2023 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #2183318
According to the Chasam Sofer and Meshech Chachma anti-Semitism helps against assimilation. This is the meaning in the Hagadah on והיא שעמדה their hatred towards us protects us. See also SA O’CH 156 what is considered a’z. Lo sichanem is selling land in EY.April 24, 2023 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #2183553
Reb e, lo sichanem is *also* selling land in ey – but do you have a source for that? I believe it’s an issue with lo yeshvu beartzecha.April 24, 2023 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #2183591
The Reformers wanted to gain social acceptance and financial prominence. They weren’t being altruistic about improving the situation for their fellow Jews.April 24, 2023 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #2183593
I didn’t realize it was a poster and not the article. Okay. Forget the hashkafa for a minute. Do you think it would help the situation in the article? If it is a naive approach anyways, why bother with the hashkafic ramifications?April 24, 2023 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #2183594
I assume that normal etiquette isn’t a problem. Yaakov blessing the Pharaoh isn’t any different than saying good morning/good night on the commute.April 24, 2023 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #2183596
In context ‘a Jew in the house, a German in the street’ meant the opposite.April 24, 2023 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #2183599
The metzius of a yid, doesn’t make the vegetation or animals not a creation of Hashem’s handiwork. How can a human not be seen as such too?April 24, 2023 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #2183601
Davening for non-Jews was one of the early Hassidic debates. I don’t know how much of the liturgy you discarded over this one. By now I know that it is not worth bringing proofs to you from what Yidden actually did throughout history.April 24, 2023 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #2183602
I didn’t read the post. Causes of the Holocaust are for the small minded.April 24, 2023 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #2183630
Davening for the prosperity of the world is definitely an inyan; the korbanos of sukkos, etc… But davening for a particular non Jewish person is assur, as the magen avrohom writes. Please tell me where in the siddur we pray for such things?
And if rav shach, the satmar rov, the chazon ish, and other gedolei olam talked about the causes of the Holocaust… then halevai i should be as small minded as them.
It’s the opposite; small minded people often retreat into “mir veist nisht” because they don’t want to confront the harsh reality of schwr veonesh, that God punishes, and doesn’t just reward.April 24, 2023 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #2183660
The debate I alluded to was about including a specific non-Jew in one’s thoughts during the Amidah.April 24, 2023 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #2183720Yabia OmerParticipant
Avira do you have a full time job?April 24, 2023 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #2183714
> davening for a particular non Jewish person is assur
I have sidurim with davening for Emperors Franc Jozef and Nikolai Alkexandrovich and their mishpuchas (with names of wifes and children listed). Are these in contradiction with MA?April 24, 2023 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #2183754
Nom, and who argues with the magen avrohom?April 24, 2023 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #2183764
Aaq, not at all, because yidden benefit from the king knowing that his Jewish subjects pray for himApril 25, 2023 2:06 am at 2:06 am #2183772HaLeiViParticipant
This is a conversation befitting the Bais Medrash of Rebbi Shimon. But דין גליא רזיא.April 25, 2023 7:29 am at 7:29 am #2183770Avi KParticipant
Rav Kook said that we should also love non-Jews (Middot haRaya, Ahava). Rav Ovadia permitted saying a “mi sheberach” for a ‘םומגקג Druze soldier and a hashkava for the Druze police officer killed in the Har Nof massacre as they do not worship idolsץ Rav Moshe allowed honoring a non-Jew who benefited the Jewish community. Chazal instructed us to give tzedaka to non-Jews, to visit their sick, and to comfort their mourners as the Torah’s ways are ways of peace. This would seem to be in line with the comment seen by the O.P.
Of course, As Rav Tzvi Yehuda (Kook) said, this does not obviate the halachot regarding distancing ourselves. This is a dichotomy of Judaism. On the one hand, we are universalists, and on the other hand, we are particularists.April 25, 2023 9:23 am at 9:23 am #2183852
Avi, R Soloveichik, similarly, suggests cooperation on world-related issues but not even a conversation about how we relate to Hashem. When discussing possible cooperation in Vatican proceedings where they were expected to change their position to a more positive towards Jews, he writes – we are not negotiating and offering something in exchange. They have a problem that they are trying to fix, they don’t need our presence. Also, they’ll not be ever satisfied by our offers unless we fully convert, so any conversation might lead to more hatred.April 25, 2023 10:46 am at 10:46 am #2183895
SA YD 151,8April 25, 2023 10:46 am at 10:46 am #2183886
Rashi on Devorim (7,2), Rambam Hilchas Akum (10, 3-4), Yabia Omer in detail (YD 10, 1-6)April 25, 2023 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #2183931
Avi, rabbi kook loved lots of things. He called Rembrandt, a proste goy,a “tzadik” because he happened to draw a portrait of the tosfos yom tov. His hashkofos are not mainstream. His son’s aren’t either.
Where do chazal say to love goyim?
You are correct that chazal say that we do those things, visiting sick, tzedaka… doesn’t say it’s a mitzvah. It says it keeps the peace. Keeping peace is a huge deal.
Davening for someone because you have hakaras hatov is also not b’chinam, and that might include a non Jewish soldier as well. No chiddush there.
The magen avrohom stands, against….rabbi kook? Sorry, doesn’t work that way.April 25, 2023 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #2183962ParticipantParticipant
“A Longest Pesach” by Shmuel Kunda. Why was the Noda Beyehudah not oiver on lo sichaneim?April 25, 2023 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #2183974ParticipantParticipant
“Rav Ovadia permitted saying a “mi sheberach” for a ‘םומגקג Druze soldier and a hashkava for the Druze police officer killed in the Har Nof massacre”
Which “Rav Ovadia?” R’ Yosef?
Which “har nof massacre”? The one in which R’ Twersky zt”l and three others were murdered? (I don’t know of any others, sure hope there weren’t.)
R” Ovadia Yosef was niftar a year before the Har Nof massacre.April 25, 2023 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #2183980
Participant – can you please tell us the story? I love stories. And unfortunately I don’t have access to r. Shmuel kunda’s tapes, nor am i familiar with them.April 25, 2023 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #2184024
So your admitting where it’s a matter of universal (not just the temporal fashion) etiquette, than it’s not a problem. All humans benefit from each others health and happiness. So that just about cleans up the original comment. (Which I still haven’t bothered to find.)
One question. Would be a problem to daven for my client/employee ‘s health? If they are ill I would lose from it.April 25, 2023 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #2184058
maybe simply look at TaNach? Yona and kikayon.April 25, 2023 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #2184105
Nom, no, i did not admit that everyone’s well-being is important to everyone. I do not benefit if my non Jewish neighbor is healthy or not.
I said in my original post that when there’s a benefit to a yid, it is no longer lo sichanem, but it has to be a real benefit, not some philosophical “we’re all connected” hookey.April 25, 2023 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #2184106
And yes, clients, employees, employers, business partners… Their health and to a degree their material success directly benefits their Jewish associates.April 26, 2023 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #2184371
Avira, I was under the impression that lo sechanem only applies to akum, ie idol worshippers. I would assume it definitely doesn’t apply to chassidei umos haolam (your welcome to show me otherwise) but what about Stam goyim who believe in making the world a better place (and don’t worship idols)?April 26, 2023 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #2184385
Can I daven for your employee’s health?April 26, 2023 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2184408
Cs, good question; you’re touching on a machlokes…well, perhaps one. There is a meiri which says that many of the injunctions chazal made with akum don’t apply – he doesn’t specify how many, if i recall – because today’s goyim believe in Hashem, on some level, for the most part. He does agree, however, that things like bishul akum, stam yainon, do apply.
The rambam famously held that the issur hanaah no longer applies to stam yainon for this reason, but halacha doesn’t follow his shitoh.
And some yekkishe rabbonim quote the meiri. In their timw and piece, it was advantageous and it’s not clear how seriously they meant it. However, the meiri was not known in the achronims time, and the chazon ish says that we don’t overturn achronim because we find rishonim later on.
Back to lo sichanem; if we don’t go with the meiri, we have no shailoh; we are not permitted to give free presents or compliments to any goy, which answers your 2nd question about “stam” goyim nowadays. I disagree, though, that stam goyim wish to make the world a better place. Many say that they do, but you of all people know what the Tanya says at the end of the first perek about chessed le’umim chatas, which is why I’m surprised at your stance on this issue.
As for chasidei umos haolam, one of my rebbeim showed me a source in a chabad sefer (maybe you know which one) which says that the shoresh neshoma of a chosid umos haolam os the same as a yisroel. Ger toshav has its set of laws, and I don’t believe lo sichanem applies to them. Hashavas aveidah, if i remember correctly, applies to them, and not stam goyim.
Nom, i would think so. If you’re driving at the idea that “this goys health must affect SOME jew somewhere” i disagree. And a person needs to know where their intentions lie. We’re taught by this mitzvah not to have special love for ainom yehudim. Derech eretz, yes, not cheating, stealing, certainly! But to go above and beyond when there’s no hakaras hatov or benefit, is forbidden. And according to your view, the magen avrohom wouldn’t have said it was assur to so so if on some level a yid benefits everytime a goy is prosperous.April 26, 2023 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #2184419
When I daven for your employee, am I allowed to feel compassion for him being ill?April 26, 2023 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #2184427
“And some yekkishe rabbonim quote the meiri. In their timw and piece, it was advantageous and it’s not clear how seriously they meant it. ”. I find this line of thinking dangerous because that could throw all of their Torah into doubt, (meaning if we know they paskened differently than what they would have, due to goyim.) is that what you meant?
“Back to lo sichanem; if we don’t go with the meiri, we have no shailoh;”
I’m pretty sure the Rambam holds it applies to akum specifically, at least that’s whati remember from fifth grade studying for chidon.
“I disagree, though, that stam goyim wish to make the world a better place. Many say that they do, but you of all people know what the Tanya says at the end of the first perek about chessed le’umim chatas, which is why I’m surprised at your stance on this issue.”
If you look up The Rebbes notes in lessons in Tanya on perek Aleph, he says (and I’m paraphrasing because I can’t look it up at the moment) that most goyim
today are chassidei umos haolam (although in the past, they didn’t) and my personal experience with the goyim I’ve interacted with is that they are looking to be good people and altruistically do kind things for others etc.
I would like to see the exact phrase and maybe I’ll post when I can, because chassidei umos haolam are determined by accepting upon themselves to do Sheva mitzvos, and because Hashem gave it to Moshe Rabbeinu on har Sinai. My instinctive understanding is that their souls now derive from klipas nogah, making altruism possible, but I’d have to look at it betterApril 26, 2023 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #2184433MarxistParticipant
The reasons given here for anti-Semitism and the Holocaust are usually the non-falsifiable claims that if Jews became more secular and involved in the outside world then it leads to more anti-Semitism and persecution. Of course, this claim is never rigorously tested or subject to any critical scrutiny. What about Sefardim who were becoming more secular due to the Alliance but were not subject to the Holocaust? Were Jews becoming more secular during Tach vTat? What about the vast majority of American Jewry who was pretty secular since they came over from Europe yet lived and continue to live in relative peace?
The whole claim is just cherry-picking examples that work well with the preconceived notion that punishment follows more secularism. It’s not a strong rigorous claim.April 26, 2023 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #2184432
Nom, we feel compassion for animals too. We don’t say yagiu rachamecha on them, however. A jew feels compassion for everyone, but davening or bentching them is too far. Every value has limits; this is why they’re called middos, measurements, and are measured by the crucible of Halacha.
See the chazon ish in emunah ubitachon, this is one of his central themes. Mussar helps you feel, but halacha directs those feelings. Mussar tells you to have rachmanus on the oppressed, but Halacha tells you who is in fact, the oppressed. When these definitions are inverted, catastrophic consequences ensue.April 26, 2023 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #2184446
Re, handshaking; i didn’t mean to open up a can of worms – but i need to clarify that they didn’t write a teshuva, it was supposedly given over by word of mouth that some of their rabbonim allowed itApril 26, 2023 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #2184444
Cs, the rishonim say that chasidei umos haolam must keep all 7 mitzvos bekavanah…im sorry, but most if not almost all goyim today do not, simply because they wouldn’t support the death penalty for toevoa or ni’uf…and the 7th mitzvah is dinin, tbat they need to make courts which carry out the other 6.
Based on the tanya, the michtav meliyahu and others connect it with the rambams shitah that to get into olam haba, one must do s mitzvah totally lishma at some point in their lives. Jews have that capacity, and goyim naturally do not. However they can if thdy work themselves very, very hard, and such people become chasidei umos haolam, like iyov. The “no tzad tov” of the tanya refers to being able to do such a mitzvah, according to rav dessler.
I believe rav dessler got it from rav tzadok hakohen of Lublin, but i don’t remember.
What you quoted from the rambam about lo sichanem is not true; please look it up and you’ll see.
Re, yekkishe rabbonim… it’s not my chidush. Many heterim and attitudes expressed by them have been said to have been horaas shaos to save their community from reform, which was devastating German jewry. Does that mean regular teshuvos from rav hirsch in shemesh merapeh are suspect? Not at all. We’re talking about things like mixed singing at the Shabbos table, handshaking, etc…things that ehrlicher yidden don’t normally do.April 26, 2023 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #2184445
I just looked up the notes to perek Aleph Tanya- where The Rebbe notes. It’sa bit different than what I wrote so here it is:
“When a Jew acts in a benevolent manner, he is motivated mainly out of concern for the welfare of his fellow. The proof of this is that were his fellow not to need his help, this would give him greater pleasure than the gratification derived from his act of kindness.
Concerning the nations of the world, however, this is not so. Their motivation is not the welfare of their fellow; rather, it stems from a self-serving motive—the desire for self-glorification, a feeling of gratification, and the like.
It should be noted that among the nations of the world, there are also to be found those whose souls are derived from kelipat nogah.33 Called “the pious ones of the nations of the world,” these righteous individuals are benevolent not out of selfish motives but out of a genuine concern for their fellow.”April 26, 2023 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #2184447
Marx – do you not believe that the Torahs promise of punishment in this world, should the jews sin, is true?
There was never a phenomenon of so many jews leaving Torah as there was before the Holocaust. That’s not cherry picking. It’s reading the bible.
During other calamities, such as the gezerah of Purim, did jews say like you…well, we never really know why…so let’s just go about our ways and pray it goes away? No! They did teshuva. They identified their mistakes, that they enjoyed the meal lf achashverosh.
Had you been alive in Shushan, you would have opposed Mordechai. And you would have put us all in danger.
Tach vetat was unclear, which is why the tosfos yom tov asked about it in shomayim. And he was given an answer. Talking in shul is a big deal up there. Were you aware of that?April 26, 2023 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #2184448
I think the point is that Jews tend to think that if they would just assimilate a bit or completely, anti semitism would disappear. So the Holocaust is proof that that isn’t true. The same thing happened by golus mitzrayim: the Jews thought by worshiping the Egyptian gods, the Egyptians would be brotherly. But instead they got even more annoyed to the point that the Jews were described as thorns. Then they enslaved them.April 26, 2023 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #2184449
If we determine spiritual, neshoma questions with our own personal experiences… it’s not the way sifrei mussar and chasidus operate. Neshomos have mechanics and definition… the tanya is speaking about the neshoma of a goy.
I sharply disagree with what you quoted from the last Lubavitcher Rebbe for other reasons, too. Most goyim commit forms of theft that they don’t consider thievery, such as not being exact in clocking in and out of work, cutting in line, waking people up,cheating on tests, and other such things.
They also curse Hashem r”l a lot. Ever hear a goy say “oh my (,blank) god”? It’s a chiyuv misah.April 26, 2023 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #2184474
Yes The Rebbe didn’t say most goyim… check the quote.
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