April 26, 2023 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #2184477
Cs – ok, so the Lubavitcher rebbe didn’t say that most goyim are CHUMH”A; i found it surprising to make such a statement.
I also disagree with the idea that doing a chesed to help someone without personal gain is lishma. Mitzvos are done leshem shomayim. If ab atheist wants to help someone, his actions – though without personal gain – are avodah zara, because he thinks that he has the independent power to help or harm others.
An act that is pure is one that is done for Hashem alone, whether it be chesed, or any other mitzvah.April 26, 2023 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #2184504
An atheist is not an idol worshipper.April 26, 2023 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #2184506
So then we arrive at the fallacy that the purest person is the one who only doesn’t kill and only does kill because of God’s revealed will alone.April 26, 2023 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #2184508
The consequences laid out in the Torah are in response to actual sins of the nations. Not ideology.April 26, 2023 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #2184517
I don’t know why you say that this was a unique period of assimilation. The whole of the last three hundred years is one long slide that is still sliding.April 26, 2023 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #2184580
I’ll take an atheist helping his neighbor to a “frum” person who preaches hating everyone. Avraham preferred mehutonim frmo his family who were avdei A’Z because they had proper middos, the rest can be changed, but not that.April 26, 2023 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #2184608
That “fallacy” is not an issue; pure means it’s for Hashem. Period. Whatever that activity is. It includes mechias amalek.
Your other points are just orthopraxy.
And yes,the Torah clearly says one is punished for ideology; pen yesh bachem…shoresh poreh…li beshrirus libi eilech. He is evil for thinking that way.
Tochacha begins, if you will despise my laws… that’s ideological
Amar naval belibo, ain elokim
By avodah zara, i meant that he believes in another power besides Hashem.
And atheism is far worse than avodah zaraApril 26, 2023 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #2184630
I think this takes the cake of your most anti Torah post yet.
Do you think Hashem needs the atheist to do chessed? It would have happened anyway. He’s nothing. Just a shliach; maybe he’s the shliach because he had zchus avos, or something. But he’s gornisht. And his chesed is sinful, because he parades around saying how virtuous secular people are.
A frum person with faults is still keeping mitzvos; he’ll have to answer for his faults, but he is a ben olam haba.an atheist will burn forever. And you’d prefer him?April 26, 2023 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #2184631
Middos can definitely be changed. Moshe rabbeinu was born with all of the worst middos, and he became the greatest person ever.
Avrohom didn’t take lavan as a son in law. He told eliezer to choose from his family because he knew the superior spiritual DNA that ran through it,from Shem and Ever, etc..one or more parts of that chain might be damaged, but a child from that family will have those good genes, and kf they’re appropriate themselves, like rivka was, then it’s a good shiddich.
Not so with eliezer, who had exceptional middos, and was a self made man… however he still had interior , “arur” spiritual genes. As it happens to be, when eliezer completed his task, chazal say hr became “baruch” like avrohom.April 26, 2023 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #2184636
Avira, you are arguing, I think, with R Hirsh, R Lopian and probably others that explain this way.
I am not saying this is an only way, but something to think about.
Maybe you understand differently what “middos” are.
I included the notional “atheist” here, whom I presume to be a proster non-religious Yid, closer to a classic “am haaretz”. As an example from another thread, I’ve seen a number of Israeli and Russian Yidden who did not have much Jewish background, but had good general attitudes, sending their kids to Jewish schools, whether Chabad/MO/Litvishe and blending into communities in several years, starting from zero.
Maybe you suggested a real apikoires, a head of a Marxist club, who also takes care of his comrades. That would be different.April 27, 2023 7:43 am at 7:43 am #2184651
Avira, according to what I remember (which may be wrong) lo sichanem applies to idol worshippers, akum. Can you bring any quote from the Rambam etc that says that it applies to stam goyim as well?
Even with the nations we are commanded to destroy, if they take upon themselves the 7 mitzvos, there’s no Mitzvah to kill them.April 27, 2023 9:32 am at 9:32 am #2184702
CS, Christians are akum, worshipping avoda zora. It says so specifically in Rambam.April 27, 2023 9:35 am at 9:35 am #2184711
The Chasam Sofer proves from Eliyahu that he ran after Achav, a rasha to give respect to goyim for letting us stay in their land. To tolerate toiva is a necessary evil in order to be tolerated.April 27, 2023 10:05 am at 10:05 am #2184726
Ujm that’s questionable (for goyim) as many hold they’re allowed to believe in shituf (which c would fall under)April 27, 2023 10:42 am at 10:42 am #2184746
CS, the Noda B’Yehuda wires that shituf is avoda zora even for a Goy.April 27, 2023 10:42 am at 10:42 am #2184748
CS, and, as i mentioned, rambam specifically writes that Christianity, whether you call it shituf or not, is avoda zora.April 27, 2023 11:30 am at 11:30 am #2184782
Ujm- for yidden- certainly. But goyim aren’t commanded on lyachado-AFAIK. Do you know of a source otherwise?April 27, 2023 11:30 am at 11:30 am #2184784
Cs, if you’re trying to make a chiluk, then i believe it’s alecha lehavi eayah.April 27, 2023 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #2184807
The Noda Beyehuda says that shevuah is not allowed.April 27, 2023 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #2184841
Not commiting avodah zara doesn’t make one a chosid umos haolam. One needs to keep every one of them with the kavanah of doing the ratzon Hashem, and some say it has to be with kavanah of keeping Toras Moshe itself.April 27, 2023 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #2184905
Avira- agreed. But stam goyim are not idol worshippers, and I remember learning that goyim are not commanded on lyachado and so shituf is ok by them. I’m very sorry that I couldn’t immediately find the source (pretty sure it’s Rambam), but maybe one of the learned posters could find it.April 27, 2023 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #2184916
CS, again, Rambam very clearly and explicitly declares Christianity to be avoda zora for goyim.April 27, 2023 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #2184942
Tosfas in Meseches Ovada Zara says מנהג אבותיהם בידיהם. They do it by following the father’s customs. Tosfas Yom Tov, Avidah Zara (1,2)April 27, 2023 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #2184974ParticipantParticipant
The Longest Pesach: R’ Yechezkel Landau was walking one day, when he noticed a nochri boy sitting and crying. He inquired, and the boy replied that every day he sells a basket of his uncle, the baker, ‘s bread but today it fell and he can’t sell it and his uncle will beat him mercilessly. R’ Landau gave him the amount of money he needed.
Years later, one Pesach, the boy–now a man–knocks on his door, and informs him that his uncle is plotting to kill all the Jews in the city. After Pesach every year, they all come to buy bread from him. He would poison the bread this year. R’ Landau must foil the plot, but without the uncle discovering the nephew gave him away.
On Acharon Shel Pesach, R’ Landau made an announcement in shul that there was a mistake in the calendar and that it was really the 7th day of Pesach. That night, or next morning, when everyone was observing Acharon Shel Pesach, he contacted the chief of police, who fed the bread to a dog, and found it to be poisoned. The baker was arrested, and R’ Landau announced that the calendars were right after all.
1. Why was he not oveir lo sichaneim?
2. What heter was there to extend Pesach and cause all those brachos levatalos?
3.Even if there is a heter, would it have been so hard to concoct a different story, maybe that all the flour in the country was found to be owned by a Jewish heretic (and came in contact with water), and hence no one may eat it?April 27, 2023 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #2184986
1. We feed akum mipnei darchei sholom,and this story is an amazing example of why this is important.
2. Pikuach nefesh?
3. Great question! No idea. Could be that this way every single jew would definitely be saved.April 27, 2023 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #2184994
I find it funny when people quote sources selectively. Rambam thinks this of Xians (while living among Muslims), while others said something else. Why not lists those who are on both sides, and then explain why your conclusion is the majority? (I know I sometimes quote Rambam only, but this is just because I don’t know much and also respect Rambam’s approach – and Rambam wrote short books for people like me).
Also, on this issue – there are different versions. Rambam writes about Catholics. There are Orthodox who simply follow Russian tzar or seretary general, there are various Protestants who believe either in more abstract things or in nothing at all. There are non-Jews who classify themselves as Reform Jews – what is their status?April 28, 2023 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #2185180
Then why is there such a thing as a murderer? Hashem created murder and endorsed it for some scenarios and forbade it in other instances. So the murder is just the act of a sinner. Really?April 28, 2023 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #2185181
I very much agree.
A vain person is convinced that there is no power that holds us accountable.April 28, 2023 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #2185182
But the tochacha continues… and then goes on… and on… Besides for all this verse bending [Which is not at all how chazal understood it.] if it’s just ideology, than how is there all this descent? Either we understand it and think it, or we don’t think it. How can we understand it and not think it?April 28, 2023 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #2185183
I don’t know why you brought up atheism. It is a bittul aseh. (Or two.) No malkos. No kores. Have you lost your mind?April 28, 2023 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #2185184
The Rishonim explain what the prohibition of a”z is. The Rambam, and the Rishonim on TaNaCh.April 28, 2023 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #2185185
In light of the Chazzon Ish, what are your feelings when you daven?April 28, 2023 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #2185186
Qualifier: All the atheists I know, think of themselves as less empowered. If anything, they are calling us idol worshippers when we believe that so many different things are benefitting (us) on our behalf.April 28, 2023 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #2185187
I’m still waiting on your historical evidence.
I suspect your taking someone else’s perspective as history.April 28, 2023 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #2185188
פן יש בכם….. is referring to Bittul Torah. Or rejecting the Torah.
This is basics. The problem is Yidden that reject everything and don’t keep any of the Torah.
No matter what their approach is to understanding the world around them.
No matter if their culture of art, dress, food, .. mimics the world around them
That is two separate sentences because they are completely different. And either goes just as well with the opposite of the other. You have been making one mix out of all this. Maybe because your opinions don’t stand on their own merits. So you use them to prop each other up. The only result is that I end up attacking your well meaning ideas more than I want to. You are not doing any favors to yeshivishe hashkafah by drawing such heavy lines and then trying to knot them in a bunch.
The fact of Tanach is that, the Yidden completely rejected all of the Torah. It’s study, obligations, meaning, and purpose. And in our day this is still an ongoing fact.
Stop making it about ideals and culture.April 28, 2023 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #2185225
Atheism, denying Hashem, is punished by something worse than kares…a person loses their olam haba. It’s incredible to me that a new who professes to keep the mitzvos would think otherwise; he is absolutely punished for denying Hashem. The rambam says that even a person who treats the existence of Hashem or the truth of the Torah wishy washy, sometimes he believes, sometimes he doesn’t, is “destroying the world”… He writes this in hilchos teshuva. I suggest you learn it, both because you don’t know it and because you have some serious teshuva to do…i can’t imagine someone who thinks little of mind related mitzvos keeps them very well.
Lo sasuru prohibits heretical thoughts, but according to you, it’s not a big deal because he hasn’t done anything physical… Chazal say that hirhurim are worse, and the Maharal explains that sinful thoughts are worse because they affect the neshoma directly, as opposed to exterior actions.
My point about pen yesh bachem was that it was an example of how feelings and thoughts are important. It of course leads to other sins and eventually forsaking Torah altogether.
You’re reading tanach like the goyim, who call it the bloody old testament. Those violent, idol worshipping Israelites…
Chazal clearly understand tanach differently than you do. Even reshoim like izevel kept kashrus, otherwise how did eliyahu eat from her table, when he wasn’t even there? It was delivered to him. There are many such examples.
Perhaps you’re justifying your own shortcomings by saying that jews throughout history were mostly sinners, but there’s zero evidence of that.May 1, 2023 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #2185947
The issue here is not my own shortcomings. I would agree with what you on that. Even though you have no idea what I am like. The topic was Lo Sichanem. Which applies to Idol Worshippers, not even all non-Jews. Most definitely not Jewish Atheists. Maybe I lost the thread. I can’t figure out what happened here.
But anyways, it’s more fun to keep going. So……..May 1, 2023 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #2185948
No. Chazal understood TaNaCh, that the Torah was just nearly forgotten. As in completely lost. I don’t know how well you understand Chazal. You seem to be more familiar with the low level hashkafists of the last hundred years than any of the Great Gaonim.May 1, 2023 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #2185952
Look it up. If there is a historical proof from Eliyahu, than the Gemara understood it not like you posted.May 1, 2023 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #2185955
The concept under discussion (Pen Yeish Bachem…) is about a lax involvement in Torah. Not ideological or theological speculation. Just sit and learn. I don’t get what your trying to sell.May 1, 2023 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #2185956
According to your take, lo sasuru refers to one’s own thoughts as much as to any heretical thoughts. How else can you understand the Rambam?May 1, 2023 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #2185959
So in your opinion, what is the dividing line between an atheist who has no olam habah and one who keeps the mitzvah of believing in Hashem?May 1, 2023 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #2185960
Does your last post mean you’ve come back to just jewish concepts and are not bothered by how much it sounds like things that are current in the outside world?May 1, 2023 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #2185978
So…the maharal is a “low level hashkafist of the last 100 years”?
Who are the “gaonim”? Saul lieberman? Adin steinsaltz? Eliezer Berkowitz?
The dividing line between atheism and other forbidden ideas, and belief is simple; one decided that he does not believe in Hashem, the Torah, or any of the other 13 ikkarim, or dismisses a chazal that he doesn’t like…and another, believes in the full belief system of Judaism. I don’t understand the question.
There can be times when a person struggles in emunah, or has doubts; that doesn’t mean it’s permitted to maintain those doubts. Just like someone who struggles with lashon hora.
Where do chazal say that the torah was “completely lost”? That’s nonsense. There is an unbroken chain of mesorah, and the vast majority of klal yisroel kept the vast majority of the Torah. Take a look at Josephus’ contra apion, or the meforshim on the pesukim which seem to imply otherwise. The neviim chastised the nation about specific shortcomings, but according to you, they should have treated them like tinokos shenishbu…May 1, 2023 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #2185994
I was wondering how you got from the Rambam to the Maharal. Are you using the Maharal on lo sichanem to harass the poor commenter in your OP? I have been thinking Rambam the whole time. Sorry.May 1, 2023 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #2185995
For you it would be enough to stop by Rav Moshe and Rav Aharon. Their battle on deyos is almost the reverse of yours.May 1, 2023 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #2186003
If you want to know rav aharon’s position on this “issue”(not that it is one, or that rav aharon considered it to be such) just look at mishnas rav aharon, where he castigates wrong hashkofos all the time…for instance, his piece on yaakov and rochel.
What “war” did those gedolim supposedly fight? Sourceless nonsense.May 1, 2023 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #2186004
Maybe they did treat some or all of them like tinokos shenishbu. I don’t think they were tinokos shenishbu at all. But when the Ramban says that most of the people forgot everything, he was saying what he knew to be true.
And I don’t know where to find about Bayis rishon in that book. As far as I know Josephus skips the malchai yisroel there. Try Antiquities. But if that’s all you have, see his descreption of the Jews in the Diaspora.May 1, 2023 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #2186005
You missed the main question. What needs to be done to fulfill the mitzva of believing in Hashem?May 1, 2023 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #2186051
Nom, where is this ramban?
And the Mitzvah is to believe; it is a thought dependent Mitzvah which has no physical action – the kind you don’t believe exist
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.