long davening

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  • #597596
    sarahbarah2
    Member

    i am now switching schools. In the school that i was just in i was able to daven as long as i wanted as i had permission. However, i am now going to high school where i don’t have this opportunity to daven as long as i want. I would like to daven my normal 1 hour shemoneh esrei which helps me attain the top most kavannah that i feel i need and now that i cant i dont know what to do in order to keep my davening like it is now.

    any suggestions?

    #780553
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    normal 1 hour shemoneh esrei

    That term is an oxymoron. Shmoneh Esrei should not take you an hour.

    If you really need that much time to prepare for davening to attain the proper level of kavannah, get to school an hour earlier and prepare then.

    The Wolf

    #780554

    MY normal 1 hour shemoneh esrei is not an oxymoron.

    Shmoneh Esrei should not take you an hour.

    i certainly would not say: “it should take you an hour.”

    i also certainly would not say: “it should not take you an hour.”

    if you never davened a VERY long Shemone Esrei you have no idea what the poster is talking about

    #780555
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    if you never davened a VERY long Shemone Esrei you have no idea what the poster is talking about

    I have, on occasion, davened a very long Shmoneh Esrei. The OP, OTOH, makes it sound like that’s the everyday norm for her. That’s quite different. It should NOT take an hour to daven Shmoneh Esrei every day and the school certainly has no requirement to accommodate her unusual davening habit.

    The Wolf

    #780556
    RSRH
    Member

    OP, while being able to develop the kind of kavana and feeling needed to daven a 1 hour shemona esrei is commendable, in life we do not have the luxury of devoting ourselves so completely to a single focus. One of the greatest challenges in life is learning how to balance our many competing obligations, to fulfill each one of them to the best of our ability, without neglecting others. We need to work and support our families; we need to learn; we need to help our spouses; we need to care for our children; we need to do chessed in our communities; we need to look after our immediate families; we need to daven with kavana. The list is endless, and each obligation pulls us in different directions. We can’t to all of them all the time, and we can’t focus too strongly on any one of them to the detriment of others. A one hour shemona esrei is praiseworthy, if that sort of teffilah is your niche, but you can’t use it as an excuse to not do other things required of you – whether at home, work, or school.

    Developing a proper balance is one of our hardest tasks in life; we never really succeed, but we have to try.

    #780557

    wow! kudos to you sb2! i wish shmonah esrei would take me so long! may all of your tfillos be answered bkarov, and may your special relationship with Hashem take you very far in life! you are such an inspiration!

    #780558

    again i disagree that: it should not take an hour to daven S’E, even 3 times a day on a regular basis. it depends on the person and their madreiga. i agree it is highly unusual. i agree the school should not be REQUIRED to accomodate this.

    #780559
    sarahbarah2
    Member

    It’s not a matter of preparing for davening however more of that while davening shemoneh esrei i prefer to taker a bit more time to focus on the words and have them relate to me and my life more. Additionally i tried to come to school earlier but then you have everyone coming in after i have started and that creates a distraction that doesnt help either

    #780560

    sarah

    do not let the negative posts here discourage you.

    this is a wonderful thing. you should continue to work on it. i wish you much help from Hashem.

    can you think of a way that you would be able to fit it into the new schools schedule, and then talk to the head of the school about it?

    #780561

    i echo the sentiments of yummy cupcake.

    #780562
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Additionally i tried to come to school earlier but then you have everyone coming in after i have started and that creates a distraction that doesnt help either

    If people moving around and talking disturb you, how did you handle it when everyone else had finished davening and you were still davening SE?

    The Wolf

    #780563

    sarahbarah2

    Why would switching to a different school solve your problem?? You appear to be an anomaly, and I doubt there is a school out there that can accomodate you, other than maybe a homeschool, or your own school. I assume that you, as a young bas yisrael, don’t need to daven with a minyan. Therefore, you should wake up at 7 A.M. and daven at home for as long as you want.

    Disclaimer: I personally agree with Wolf and don’t see anything ‘wrong’ with davening for an hour; on the contrary maybe it’s a very good thing. However, you can’t be the iconoclast in this situation. (p.s. I hope I used iconoclast correctly)

    #780564
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    do not let the negative posts here discourage you.

    I’m not trying to be negative. I’m trying to understand why it takes someone an hour to daven SE on a regular basis. You may disagree with me, but I do not think that a longer davening necessarily equals a better one.

    If the OP can find a way to achieve a meaningful davening while keeping it to a reasonable time frame, she will not only be better off for it, but it will also cause her less problems at her new school.

    But I really appreciate the vote of confidence on my intentions.

    The Wolf

    #780565

    FD

    you misunderstood her

    she is not switching schools to solve the problem

    she was originally in a school where there was no problem

    now that she is in a new school, this problem has arisen

    #780566

    It should NOT take an hour to daven Shmoneh Esrei every day

    how in the world did i ever interpret that as negative?

    #780567

    FD

    you misunderstood her

    she is not switching schools to solve the problem

    Mod-80 how would my answer change if I understood her in the correct vein?

    #780571

    im taking a personal and biased interest in this thread.

    please try and help her or stay out of it

    thank you

    #780572
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “However, i am now going to high school”

    I’m not sure if this means that you just finished elementary school, but if it does, I’m sure you discussed it with the school principal and your teachers (you didnt just skip class, did you?). Why cant you do the same thing with the high school teachers/principal?

    #780573
    sarahbarah2
    Member

    i try to shorten it and i have also been told many times that i should shorten it for the very same reason that rsrh has said but it doesnt seem right to me. i try hard to find the right balance but its hard to find what that is. Also i am sure for many a shorter and even much shorter davening is sufficient however i just do things differently because it helps me.

    #780574
    on the ball
    Participant

    If I am not mistaken, I saw recently that R’ Chaim Kanievsky paskened that if somebody is davening what would be considered an unreasonably long Shemoneh Esrei, that you are M’ikar hadin allowed to walk in front of him/her even within 4 amos if necessary. When asked what is considered unreasonably long, he responded ‘anything more than the time required to be mechaven to the Pirush Hamilos.

    #780575
    sarahbarah2
    Member

    I have spoken with the principal of the new school howver they feel that i should just daven shorter. I on the other hand am not ready for that switch and dont want to go back to shorter davenings

    #780576
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    please try and help her or stay out of it

    I *am* trying to help.

    Yes, I know some might say that any suggestion that she find a way to shorten her davening is apikorsus or the like. I don’t believe so. I think she can find a way to make her davening meaningful and *still* be within a reasonable time frame.

    But what the heck. We all know that modus operendi around here has always been to tear people down rather than help them, right? So certainly I *must* have been trying to be negative and harmful to her.

    The Wolf

    #780577
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Have the principal of your old school speak to the principal of the new school. Perhaps (I am not inside the head of the principal), because he/she doesnt really know you, he doesnt realize or understand how important it is to you. Perhaps your old principal or teachers who know you can help him understand.

    #780579

    youve got a serious problem Sarah. if you cant find a solution you will have to do the best you can. G-d willing Hashem will help. if you dont seem to be able to solve the problem it will give you another opportunity to cry to and beg of Hashem.

    Hashem will be with you in any case.

    #780580
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Do you really keep Kavana for an hour? I never heard of that! Just try to arrange for your concentration to be on how you are talking to Hashem more than how badly you need the goodies. The Chassidim Harishonim spent an hour before each Davening in order to attain that clarity and vividness of how they are standing in front of Hashem.

    #780581
    sarahbarah2
    Member

    thanks for the advice i really appreciate it. i hope to keep my old ways and maybe get my old principal to help.

    #780582
    sarahbarah2
    Member

    my s.e is not mainly spent on my needs and is also spent for thanking Hashem for all i have and what He does for me

    #780583

    HaLevi, i am only talking about myself so that you will not misunderstand her.

    i have never said a S’E for an hour, but i have on many occasions said it for about 25-35 minutes. its not so much about “getting goodies” (in my case). its more about feeling the presence of Hashem, feeling gratitude, feeling love, and thinking about each word with a depth, closing out everything else except the nearness to Hashem.

    its what Tefillah should be. i cant always do it. it is work. hard work for me. it is Avodah. it is wonderful

    #780584
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    my s.e is not mainly spent on my needs and is also spent for thanking Hashem for all i have and what He does for me

    That is wonderful. However, it can also be done *outside* the context of SE. How about spending 30 to 60 minutes *before* davening (or at some other time) contemplating how wonderful He is to you and how thankful you are to Him?

    The Wolf

    #780585
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “We need to work and support our families; we need to learn; we need to help our spouses; we need to care for our children; we need to do chessed in our communities; we need to look after our immediate families; we need to daven with kavana. The list is endless, and each obligation pulls us in different directions. We can’t to all of them all the time, and we can’t focus too strongly on any one of them to the detriment of others. A one hour shemona esrei is praiseworthy, if that sort of teffilah is your niche, but you can’t use it as an excuse to not do other things required of you – whether at home, work, or school.”

    RSRH, you seem to be forgetting the Gemara in brachos which states that the chassidim harishonim would spend an hour davening as well as an hour before and after preparing to talk to G-d. The gemara asks that if they spent nine hours a day on davening, how did they have time to learn and work? The Gemara answers that since they devoted nine fours to davening, they had special siyata dishmaya that in the few hours remaining they were able to accomplish everything.

    #780586
    sarahbarah2
    Member

    when in s.e. and its time to say things like Modim and other brachot in the hoda’ah section in s.e. that is where i contemplate how wonderful He is to me and how thankful i am of all He does for me. So i would be able to spend time beforehand however when the time comes in s.e. i feel it is proper to insert those feelings in then.

    #780587
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    i feel it is proper to insert those feelings in then.

    It is. But that doesn’t mean that you have to spend all that time doing so while you’re saying Modim. You can spend quality time thanking Him beforehand and then refer to that in thought while reciting Modim during davening.

    The Wolf

    #780589
    sarahbarah2
    Member

    Even if i spend time beforehand that doesnt exactly help my situation as i would still need time to do that and if thats the case i might as well say what i need to say in s.e.

    #780591
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Even if i spend time beforehand that doesnt exactly help my situation

    Yes, it does, as if you give thanks to HKBH for all He does for you before davening, you can just mentally refer back to it during davening.

    The Wolf

    #780592
    sarahbarah2
    Member

    But then i would need time beforehand

    #780593
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Do you do this three times a day? If not, perhaps you can switch your special Shmone Esrei to Maariv.

    #780594
    mw13
    Participant

    sarahbarah2:

    It is truly wonderful that you put so much time and effort into your davening. Halevi more people should put that much time and effort into their davening.

    Wolf:

    “It should NOT take an hour to daven Shmoneh Esrei every day”

    Why not? What is wrong with spending an hour a day (or 6 hours a day, for that matter) davening?

    “and the school certainly has no requirement to accommodate her unusual davening habit.”

    Umm… religious rights?

    “I think she can find a way to make her davening meaningful and *still* be within a reasonable time frame.”

    Just as we shouldn’t judge somebody with a 90 second SE, we shouldn’t judge somebody with a 90 minute SE. If sarahbarah2 feels that an hour-long SE is what she needs, kol hakavod. It’s not like she’s saying everybody must daven SE for an hour – only that she wants to. What do you have against that?

    “But what the heck. We all know that modus operendi around here has always been to tear people down rather than help them, right? So certainly I *must* have been trying to be negative and harmful to her.”

    Umm… for a rant against judging people’s motives negatively, you seem to be judging people’s motives rather negatively….

    “That (adding extra stuff into SE) is wonderful. However, it can also be done *outside* the context of SE.”

    Yes, it can be done out of SE… but why should it be?

    RSRH:

    “we can’t focus too strongly on any one of them to the detriment of others.”

    I disagree. I think that davening certainly should be focused on, even if it must come at the “detriment of other” things. Our davening is the core of our personal relationship with Hashem, which is the point of our existence.

    Mod. 80:

    “i have never said a S’E for an hour, but i have on many occasions said it for about 25-35 minutes… its what Tefillah should be. i cant always do it. it is work. hard work for me. it is Avodah. it is wonderful “

    Couldn’t have said it better myself.

    apushatayid:

    “Have the principal of your old school speak to the principal of the new school.”

    Good idea.

    #780595
    Josh31
    Participant

    “they had special siyata dishmaya that in the few hours remaining”

    In the time of Rebbe, such “chassidim harishonim” no longer existed. That is why he called them “harishonim” which means from an earlier era.

    Why?

    Perhaps by his era there were no longer such spiritually inclined people; or there still were, but the special siyata dishmaya (Heavenly assistance) that allowed them to pray 9 hours a day was withdrawn???

    Did such “chassidim harishonim” re-appear in later generations?

    #780596
    tomim tihye
    Member

    Sarah, Kol Hakavod to you, but why can’t you daven at home, before school?

    #780597
    sarahbarah2
    Member

    Well i’m also trying to figure out whether it would be better to daven at home or in school with a minyan.

    #780598
    sarahbarah2
    Member

    Do you do this three times a day? If not, perhaps you can switch your special Shmone Esrei to Maariv. usually its three times a day but most certainly 2

    #780599
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Why not? What is wrong with spending an hour a day (or 6 hours a day, for that matter) davening?

    Because she has a schedule to keep that prevents her from doing so.

    Umm… religious rights?

    A private school is not under any obligation to make religious accommodations. Or do you think that her yeshiva should allow her to start her day at 1PM if she wants to spend six hours davening?

    Yes, it can be done out of SE… but why should it be?

    Because it’s interfering with her school schedule.

    The Wolf

    #780600
    sarahbarah2
    Member

    Well i also feel which is more important for that extra hour that i miss class to be davening or learning which i can make up later

    #780601
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Perhaps by his era there were no longer such spiritually inclined people; or there still were, but the special siyata dishmaya (Heavenly assistance) that allowed them to pray 9 hours a day was withdrawn???”

    They didn’t spend nine hours on davening because they had siyata dishmaya. They got the siyata dishmaya because they spent nine hours on davening. The reason why the chassidim harishonim stopped existing is not because the siyata dishmaya was removed, but rather because people stopped spending so much time on davening. therefore, it stands to reason that even nowadays, if one spent extra time on davening then they would in turn recieve extra siyata dishmaya throughout the rest of the day.

    #780602
    mw13
    Participant

    Wolf:

    It appears that I may have misread your position. I thought that you were opposed to an hour-long SE in principle (“It should NOT take an hour to daven Shmoneh Esrei every day”, period); but now you seem to be saying the problem is only that such a long SE will interfere with classes. That is a different argument than the one I thought was taking place.

    However, I still disagree with you. The mornings in our school system are spent in Avodas Hakodesh, and there is little Avodas Hakodesh a person (particularly a girl who is not mechuyav in talmud Torah) can be doing that is as productive as davening.

    #780603
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Or do you think that her yeshiva should allow her to start her day at 1PM if she wants to spend six hours davening?”

    why not?

    #780606
    shein
    Member

    How much kavana does the 34 minute minyan have?

    #780607
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    It appears that I may have misread your position. I thought that you were opposed to an hour-long SE in principle (“It should NOT take an hour to daven Shmoneh Esrei every day”, period); but now you seem to be saying the problem is only that such a long SE will interfere with classes. That is a different argument than the one I thought was taking place.

    I’m not opposed to it in principle. However, it must be acknowledged that it *is* unusual to take an hour to daven Shmoneh Esrei and, like anything else that is unusual, if it intereferes with normal routine activities (such as going to school), then it *does* become a problem.

    However, I still disagree with you. The mornings in our school system are spent in Avodas Hakodesh, and there is little Avodas Hakodesh a person (particularly a girl who is not mechuyav in talmud Torah) can be doing that is as productive as davening.

    I disagree. A school has a program and a cirriculum. A school cannot make customized schedules for every girl based on their own peculiarities. They have to schedule classes at a time that’s convenient for them and they have to have all the girls conform to that schedule. You cannot run a school if one girl feels that her davening will allow her to skip the first period or two and another girl feels that her chesed mission is more important than class and a third girl feels that she’d be more spiritually accomplished by learning sefer X when the class is learning sefer Y. That’s not a school — that’s anarchy.

    The Wolf

    #780608
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    why not?

    See my post right before this one.

    The Wolf

    #780609
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “See my post right before this one.”

    See my previous two posts (excluding the one where I asked you why not) where I addressed your claim.

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