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October 17, 2011 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #820073
ya.like the baruch habba melech hamoshiach signs that should be ripped down by the mainstream anti-meshichists. o wait. there arent any.October 17, 2011 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #820074ddParticipant
Mods, why is this thread allowed to continue?October 18, 2011 12:01 am at 12:01 am #820075
2cents, the youtube link put in by the mod shows Rabbi Cunin, a mainstream Lubavitch leader, making the claim in front of an audience, with nobody contradicting him, and no public retraction.
Ain od milvado. Hashem echad. Lo livado ra’ui lehispallel. these are matters of basic emuna.October 18, 2011 12:44 am at 12:44 am #820076
Jothar: I would have to think that he misspoke and no one caught it at the moment. I’m sure he said he misspoke to anyone that asked him. He wasn’t making a public speech and there isn’t a need for him to issue a press release saying he misspoke.October 18, 2011 2:13 am at 2:13 am #820077
Dr. Seuss: I would have to think that he misspoke and no one caught it at the moment. I’m sure he said he misspoke to anyone that asked him. He wasn’t making a public speech and there isn’t a need for him to issue a press release saying he misspoke.
Sure, I accidentally say “Jesus runs the world” all the time. Whoops. (disclaimer:not)
This was a PUBLIC speech, and this clip is from the PUBLIC video. And this isn’t some backwater sholiach. This is the head of West Coast Chabad, the head of the Chabad Telethon, and no stranger to public speaking. Rumors of “Elokistim” and “Boreinu”niks abound. Just google the phrases. So when a very public chabad shaliach accidentally affirms the rumors publicly, he better retract them, or have other Lubavitchers retract and say he misspoke. the silence is deafening.
I showed the post to a Lubavitcher, and my friend showed it to two others, and all three defended the video instead of claiming he misspoke. but don’t take my word for it. Show the clip to your local Shliach and ask him about it. Google “Rebbe God” or “elokistim” and you will see that there is strong evidence for this belief being very widespread. Rabbi Cunin just proved how widespread it is.
Hashem runs the world, and Ain Od Milvado. Hashem Echad.October 18, 2011 3:44 am at 3:44 am #820078
Jothar: He likely intended to say that Hashem runs the world, but misspoke saying the Rebbe. If he by mistake said Moshe Rabbeinu runs the world, instead of saying Hashem, I don’t believe you would be saying all this. That he gave a shmooze in a beis medrash is all that was. That someone videotaped and published it wasn’t his doing. What silence? He must take out an ad in the NY Times saying he misspoke? Speak to HIM rather than others. That three guys on the street gave a knee-jerk defense of it has nothing to do with R. Cunin. They aren’t his spokesmen.October 18, 2011 4:14 am at 4:14 am #820079vr67Participant
I cannot believe what is going on over here. You people consider yourself Frum Yidden, a bizayon what this is. Yes, there are kooks in all factions of Judaism, but this doesn’t mean they all believe in it. I know many, many Lubavitchers and I know only one who is Yechi. Granted, there is a sect in Milwaukee who say he is G-d…October 18, 2011 4:28 am at 4:28 am #820080
very intriguing how matters seemed to get discussed here as if people know what they are talking about rather than just spouting worthless cliches. this will hopefully be the first and last time i will be pulling yichus in the CR (or anywhere for that matter). my father is an eighth generation lubavitcher and my paternal ancestors were very big in lubavitch (my father’s father was asked to be the rosh hayeshivah of 770 both by the sixth and seventh lubavitcher rebbe, his father was the chief rabbi of switzerland during the war and served in more than one place as dayan in europe itself, need i go on?). to set the record straight, there are those lubavitchers from tzfat that are “normal” (non yechi) too. one can not make a generalization about the lubavitchers without being (very) wrong. if people would actually research lubavitch and what it really was, they wouldn’t be saying a lot of what they do. granted, some chassidim are misguided but that is not the fault of lubavitch. people have got to make that distinction and stop blaming the chassidus rather than the person’s choice. as to those groups in lubavitch people have a problem with (elokistim, boreinuniks, real yechiniks) i would like to break it to you that they do NOT represent chabad in any form or fashion so stop saying lubavitchers are crazy etc, lubavithcers aren’t crazy, these people are misguided.
>:/ ??? ????? >:/October 18, 2011 8:14 am at 8:14 am #820082
dr. suess- if i had a massive following that CV”S would say the mra”h was Hashem and i would say it publicly then i would need to retract. so many of them believe it, if he doesnt he should have said so. and its not kooks-its so mainstreamed you woulodnt believe. again, if mainstream doesnt believe the rebbe is moshiach, and it tarnishes the image of their whole chassidus and makes them into a laughingstock wouldnt it make sense to you that they would come out against these people? at least discourage the baruch habba melech hamoshiach signs? but they dont. their silence is a resounding affirmation. they believe it too.October 18, 2011 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #820084
You can’t call it a mistake if he meant to say it.October 18, 2011 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #820085
Dr. Seuss, check out the info at identifyingchaba.org and on the wikipedia page about messianic chabad. Then tell me that this was an isolated slip of the tongue.
Moshe Rabbeinu’s grave was hidden so people wouldn’t daven to it. So yes, if someone said Moshe runs the world, it’s avodah zarah. Hashem hu ha’elo-him.
Many chabadskers say tachanun on 3 Tammuz, even though they skip tachanun on the yartzeits of every other rebbe. The “LChaim” newsletter says ‘the Rebbe shlit”a’ 17 years after his passing and has a section called “living with the Rebbe”. He said what he meant and he meant what he said.October 18, 2011 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #820087
“What’s with all this sinas chinam? Where’s your ahavas yisroel? We’re all Jews, except we believe Moshiach has come and that we can pray to him instead of Hashem. It’s a minor hashkafic difference, like what color socks you wear on shabbos. You ‘snags’ are sonei yisroel. We need more achdus!” —my local Jews for J*s*s rep.October 18, 2011 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #820089popa_bar_abbaParticipant
There is no way that was a mistake.
Being that they are accused of this all the time, and that this video went viral, they would have certainly put out a retraction.
If Obama once by accident referred to kenya as his birthplace, you better believe the white house spokesman would tell us it was a mistake.October 18, 2011 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #820090
Jothar: Who said he meant to say it. It very well was likely a misspoken mistake.October 18, 2011 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #820091
yossi- i dont understand you. clearly the world percieves them to be more than a few wackjobs. i live near a lubavitch yeshiva in yerushalayim and the “bochurim” are consistently seen wearing moshiach pins. shouldnt their rabbeim tell them not to? and why dont you get up and set the record straight? ie- yell that the rebbes not moshiach? if this image is so damaging to the chassidus then why isnt there a large-scale efort to see these groups quashed? the overwhelming silence of the mainstream nonyechiniks seems to indicate there arent any. not one lubob rav ever comes out against them. it makes no sense. so logic says its not a few nuts. what am i missing?October 18, 2011 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #820092cherrybimParticipant
You can not get any Lubavitcher to say the words:
“The Rebbe is not Moshiach”.
I attended a Lubavitch elementary school and fifty years ago they were identifying the Rebbe as Moshiach.October 18, 2011 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #820093
to be clear- this is NOT about sinas chinam. I love all Jews. But ahavas chinam does not mean I throw away my halachic beliefs about Hashem echad, just like my love of my irreligious neighbors doesn’t mean I am not shomer shabbos.October 18, 2011 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #820094
cherry- R shach told a close talmid (who happens to be my rebbe and my closest friends father) that from the first sichah called bo liganee (or something like that- i dont make it my business to keep up on his stuff) it was apparent to R shach that the rebbe thought he was moshiach and was encouraging his chassidim to think so too.October 18, 2011 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #820095
i just went through the whole site identify chabad. truly scary. and i watched the “rebbe runs the world” video. no mistakes. he didnt blak afterward, didnt seem distressed about such an enormous error. theyre coming.October 18, 2011 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #820096
just setting the record straight on 2 points-
first of all, Lubavitchers never skip tachanun on yartzeiten, so …
second, that maiseh is rather questionable considering that the Brisker rov used to figure in it, now it’s Rav Shach. that’s what irks me so much. do we really need to say that Rav Shach knew he was against the Rebbe by glancing at his maamer? c’mon, just stick with the simple fact: he was against the Rebbe ideologicallyOctober 18, 2011 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #820097
btw, when I was in high school, the most popular bobeh maiseh was that rav Shach used to have a chavrusah with the lubavitcher Rebbe (!)and when the meshichist movement started, Rav Shach told him, “I can’t learn with you anymore, you’re a kofer.”
what a silly world. in order to super-justify a gadol’s opinion, we have to make him seem all knowingOctober 18, 2011 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #820098
According to Rav aharon Feldman, believing that the Rebbe died but is moshiach, while a mistaken view, is not apikorsus. The problem is when it goes further to “yechi adoneinu”, as if the Rebbe is immortal and lives forever like Hashem, or has powers to run the world, or is a being that one is allowed to Daven to.
As for the video, he says “They will understand and see”. He is about to clarify for us the revelation that people will have that will correct their previous, mistaken beliefs. What is that revelation? Someone other than Hashem runs the world. To all CR members- take the challenge. Show the video to your local Lubavitcher and ask them if he meant it or not. Then, ask them if they say tachanun on the previous rebbe’s yahrtzeit. If they say no, ask them if they tachanun on Gimmel Tammuz, when the greatest rebbe in Lubavitch history (in their view) was niftar.Check out identifyingchabad.org, as well as rebbegod.blogspot.com. Then come back here and report your findings.
A little light chases away much darkness.October 18, 2011 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #820099
yoiske- i repeat-this isnt a second hand maaseh. i didnt hear it after broken telephone- i heard it from my rebbe . it was told. to him. by R shach. first grade comprehension. i heard it from the baal hamaaseh.October 18, 2011 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #820100
yossi z: So, do we have a real gezhe in the CR? Can I ask you a couple questions?October 18, 2011 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #820101
Jothar: if you knew anything about chassidus in general you wouldn’t have said what you did about the living with the rebbe column.
Toi: how many lubavitchers do you know to qualify your statement? The majority of lubavitchers I know are non yechi. The rebbe ZY”A was very against outward fighting and preferred settling things peacefully. What those lubavitchers against the wackjobs do, is to work even harder to show what is a proper lubavitcher. Is it fair that the non wackjobs have to work so hard? No but the rebbe never liked it and were he alive today still wouldn’t like it. Therefore, the lubavitchers continue to follow the rebbe’s will even after death. Actually, yechi started when the rebbe first fell ill so if the rebbe were alive and well today the problem wouldn’t exist.
Itche: yes you have real lubavitch gezhe in the CR though as stated in my first post I do not like flaunting my yichus or anything like it. IF they are questions to benefit the rabim and not just questions to prove which side of an argument that people shouldn’t be a part of is right, then go ahead and ask.
😀 ish zuber 😀October 19, 2011 12:27 am at 12:27 am #820102am yisrael chaiParticipant
Has anyone considered the possibility that the rebbe was indeed ???? to be the ???? but we were not ??????? for him to come???
And, no, I’m not Lub., but there are MANY people frum today because of them and it is certainly easier to travel most places because of them.October 19, 2011 12:43 am at 12:43 am #820103
Yoiske, I davened in a chabad-leaning minyan. We skipped tachanun for yartzeits, “Rosh hashana” ie 19 kislev, etc. We did NOT skip it on 3 tammuz.
My brother bought a tape from Crown Heights. Lyrics were things like “3 tammuz didn’t change a thing, the rebbe’s still our leader, our master and our King” and other such things.
A chabadsker who tried being “mekareiv” me told me that Yaakov Avinu Lo Meis and therefore the Rebbe didn’t die either. The chevra kaddisha who took care of him might have something to say about that, but that’s for another time.
I once ended up davening in a chabad shul. They said “yechi” at the end of davening as a chant.
I have a hard time believing that I have the mazel of bumping into all the crazies.
yoiske, what does it mean “against him idealogically”? No such thing. There were maamarim of the Rebbe which made many Litvishe gedolim realize that something was amiss. This isn’t a moyfes. It’s a matter of reading what was written and saying this is shtus or apikorsus. Eg, the teshuva that the rebbe’s atzmius makes it muttar to daven to him directly, etc.
The Rebbe himself used to encourage the view that he was moshiach, as is listed on the websites of all of his enthusiastic supporters (he used to say moshiach “mammash”, the other maaselach, etc.October 19, 2011 12:47 am at 12:47 am #820104HaQerMember
Jothar, if you claim that they are true kofrim, do you eat their hashgachos? Because if I understand correctly, many out-of-town mashgichim are Lubavitch, if you eat OU or Kof-k or any other non-local hashgacha, they have mashgichim in random plants throughout the world who are Lubavitch. And even if a local hashgacha gives a hechsher to a food or restaurant, that restaurant is using ingredients that are under the larger hashgachos. Am I correct about this?October 19, 2011 12:54 am at 12:54 am #820105
My questions were about recent Lubavitch history but they might aggravate things. That’s why I asked first.
1- I heard that the friediker rebbe had messianists in his lifetime. What happened to them and is there any hope of the current meshichisten vanishing the same way?
2- What is keeping the normal majority from throwing the tzfatim out of 770? Haven’t they won in both bet din and secular court already?October 19, 2011 1:47 am at 1:47 am #820106
i hearOctober 19, 2011 2:43 am at 2:43 am #820107sea.shellsMember
“Resident College “Shaigetz”
Mod-42: Sez you. Imagine if somebody said something analogous to Kilobear’s comment about the drug problem in Lakewood. Would it still “have turned out ok so far”? “
I didn’t know there would be a drug problem in such a place, sad to hear:( but then again in a place where the koach of Kedusha is so strong the koach hatumah rises.October 19, 2011 9:27 am at 9:27 am #820108
yossi- your answer is typical- he didnt really like it but we dont like fighting, i cant prove it. i went through chabad.org and there are personal witnesses to pre-death yechi. with the rebes encouraqgement. they also explain what non yechi is. that it just means to wait and let the world see w/o active promotion, but hes still moshiach. and besides all this i never knew about hiskashrus. well i know now. and im dead scared this could be considered legit. forget the messianism. its a bunch of crazies.October 19, 2011 11:34 am at 11:34 am #820109
To address the point brought up about the rebbe saying about himself that he was moshiach, show me in a sicha or maamer where he says that and not what a mishechist says as they tend to like twisting things to fit to their ideology. That goes for the definitions of non yechiniks too.
Toi: look at the sichos from hey teves and then try saying what you did. Typical? Maybe but all the rebbes in lubavitch vehemently opposed out and out fighting and machlokes. This goes back as far as the first lubavitcher rebbe, the baal hatanya, and I believe it was the Groh ZYA. Chabad.org in my opinion runs with the theory of everybody is a lubavitcher yechinik they just don’t know it yet. It is not run or filtered by the rabonim. Therefore I would not use them as an information source for these things. See? Don’t argue and jump without knowing all areas. You are dead scared what could be legit and who is a bunch of crazies? Even according to the rambam who says that it is possible for moshiach to be someone in the generation who passed, it is a shver tzad and I believe a daas yochid. If you are referring to the yechiniks then I agree they are primarily just a bunch of crazies though there are those that may say yechi but don’t go spouting nonsense all day but instead are actually quite informative in legitimate matters and know what they are talking about.
Itche: 1. It is very possible there where those in his time who felt the frierdikker rebbe was moshiach but it was with a proper and soundly based mind. When he passed, these people realized (albeit with great disappointment (who wouldn’t be?) That he wasn’t moshiach and moved on. 2. Since when was there even a court case? I never heard of it but even say there was (which it is possible knowing some of the er fierce activists), the tzfatim aren’t an organized group that you can say they aren’t allowed in 770 as there is no leader of the tzfatim who tells them what to do (they obviously don’t follow the rabbanim). Either way I don’t see how something like this can be brought to beis din much less a secular court. On what legal grounds are you kicking the tzfatim out (not that I would mind though I would much rather they be willing to actually listen properly to logic instead of blindly following an ideology. Though it isn’t really my place to bash them as I don’t know enough to hold my own against the truly knowledgeable ones and chazal say dah mah shetashuv l’apikores not to actually say it as it is more for your own good to know that you could refute them)October 19, 2011 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #820110
HaQer, you bring up a VERY good point. The OU and the KAJ used to check out the mashgichim at Rubashkins to make sure they were not yechi-niks. Another lamdan told me that they are toim, not genuine minim, and as such it does not affect their shechita. Many people do avoid Lubavitch shechita and wine. But yes, it’s an issue.October 19, 2011 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #820111mikehall12382Member
I do not daven at a Chabad house, but I am friendly with the Rabbi and have gone to his house for Shabbos meals, etc.
I do get weekly emails from him and when refereeing to the Rebbe it always states “of Blessed Memory”….
I am comfortable with that.October 19, 2011 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #820112
sea.shells: As Toi pointed out, addiction happens everywhere. My point was simply about whose dirty laundry is allowed to be aired here and whose is not
1- In essence, you are saying there is no hope for the current batch of messianists to come to their senses.
2- I’m talking about the case in 2007 where the secular court ruled against the gabbaim and was renewed before Rosh Hashanna over the business with the sign Rabbi Krinsky wanted to put up.October 19, 2011 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #820113
1 In essence yes but in reality no. If people would seriously put out a concentrated effort it could be taken care of. People would rather just say ach they are crazy and get away with doing nothing. You still will have those people that seriously mentally snapped when the rebbe passed away.
2 Oh that. It wasn’t to kick anyone out, it was to decide who was in charge or rather if there was an official person who had a say over 770. It was renewed and the gaboim/rabonim won. Why they won’t/don’t kick the tzfati out I don’t know. Very likely because they don’t want to cause more problems than they already have.October 19, 2011 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #820114
yossi: I’m perplexed. I thought I saw another thread you said you are a Bostoner, not Lubavitcher.October 19, 2011 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #820115always hereParticipant
Gmar Tov everyone!
and from my Lubavitcher son-in-law, too 😉October 22, 2011 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #820116
yossiu- i cant understand. you expect everyone to accept what you are saying that roiv lubobs are normal,nonyechiniks. what the world sees isnt so. in order to fix the worldwide “misconception” on lubavitch (for the record ive seen enough evidence live that i dont believe you) it would take a concious movement by a large number of people. yet you claim that the rebbe wouldnt agree to it. so what youre saying is- the rebbe wouldnt have agreed to fight a movement that he would vehemently oppose. im sure mra”h also didnt like fighting; neither did shevet levi, but by the eigel they still cried mee laShem elay. and killed there own family members. theres no excuse. until i see lubavitchers making a movement stating that the rebbe isnt moshicah and you cant daven to him ill remain unmoved in my position that ALL lubavitchers are affected by this madness. i also the video of cunin saying quite clearly that he runs the world. and he corrected himself when he messe up a couple times on other words; but not on that sentence. and why do the regular lubobs allow the yechinkis to hold powerful and influential positions in their mosdos and organizations? if its kfira and a”z YOU should get on a soapbox and haruange away. no siree, a bunch of crazies it is.October 23, 2011 1:01 am at 1:01 am #820117
Dr. Seuss: yes I am a bostoner. So?
My father is lubavitch, his father zy”a was lubavitch, etc all the way back to the times of the alter rebbe. I just still hold quite strongly of chabad even though I did ‘convert’ chassidusin.October 23, 2011 1:12 am at 1:12 am #820118
To address the point brought up about the rebbe saying about himself that he was moshiach, show me in a sicha or maamer where he says that and not what a mishechist says as they tend to like twisting things to fit to their ideology. That goes for the definitions of non yechiniks too.October 23, 2011 1:55 am at 1:55 am #820119
Tough request, Yossi. What non-chabadnik is so familiar with all the sichos and the hidden code words of chabad that he can recognize where the Rebbe said he was moshiach, to thus be directly responsible for the thousands of apikorsim and ovdei avodah zarah everyone bumps into?
Fortunately, an answer was literally handed to me Simchas Torah when the Crown Heights folks walked in to join the dancing. It’s a pamphlet called “Yechi hamelech”, available for free by going into 770. The very beginning is a sicha from simchas torah 1985/5746. It’s about how everyone in that generation (of 26 years ago, October 1985/ simchas torah 5786) is born a shaliach (“messenger”, well-known to refer to those who follow the Rebbe’s teachings) of the nasi hador (the prince of the generation, a common phrase used to refer to the rebbe and all his miraculous doings). If the shaliach uses his power, he will turn the nasi hador into moshiach, and the Rambam says Moshiach is flesh-and-blood!
This is basically as strong as he can hint it without saying it in black-and-white.
Of course, the Rebbe was niftar on 3 tammuz 1994. So if the Rebbe was niftar, what happened to his promise that the nosi hador was moshiach and that everyone was born in the generation of moshiach?
the easy answer is that he was wrong. But since someone so great as to be tied into Hashem, that the issur of the Rambam of davening to a human as being a chelek of avoda zara no longer applied (apikorsus known as hiskashrus, check it out on identifying chabad), it can’t be he was wrong. So the Christain theology of today came about.
So yes, yossi, the Rebbe hinted at it enough to make everyone think he was moshiach, and is directly responsible for the ovdei avoda zara of today.October 23, 2011 3:40 am at 3:40 am #820120
Jothar: what are you trying to say?October 23, 2011 4:31 am at 4:31 am #820121
Yossi, I am responding to these 2 statements by you.
- granted, some chassidim are misguided but that is not the fault of lubavitch. people have got to make that distinction and stop blaming the chassidus rather than the person’s choice. as to those groups in lubavitch people have a problem with (elokistim, boreinuniks, real yechiniks) i would like to break it to you that they do NOT represent chabad in any form or fashion so stop saying lubavitchers are crazy etc, lubavithcers aren’t crazy, these people are misguided.
- To address the point brought up about the rebbe saying about himself that he was moshiach, show me in a sicha or maamer where he says that and not what a mishechist says as they tend to like twisting things to fit to their ideology. That goes for the definitions of non yechiniks too.
So I showed a sicha where the Rebbe basically says he’s moshiach, and is thus directly responsible for the crazies.October 23, 2011 6:11 am at 6:11 am #820122apushatayidParticipant
I wonder what the very same sicha says, when learned directly from likutei sichos and not from a pamphlet that has an agenda.October 23, 2011 7:17 am at 7:17 am #820125
yossi you still havent answered my taanos.October 23, 2011 11:51 am at 11:51 am #820126sea.shellsMember
Did anyone wonder why Popa did not join this controversial topic? He seems to join every other one
comments were being made by him on this thread under a disguised username, until you brought this up..
Hi Joseph, again. Popa and Bar Shattya are brothers, as has been verified.October 23, 2011 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #820127
Toi and jothar: I am sorry that I don’t sit in the cr 24/7 and as such can’t respond immediately to tainos and what not. I will bli neder respond tonight after I finish work.October 23, 2011 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #820128
The question is, where did they get the “unedited” version they posted? Did he really say those words and remove them to leave the public in the dark as to his true intentions?
They say the sicha is in lukutei sichos chelek 29.
A later sicha quoted in the pamphlet clearly shows him referring to the Tzemach Tzedek ZT”L as the “nasi doro”, showing the usage of such a term for Lubavitcher rebbes.
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