October 25, 2011 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #820245
He was saying in terms of himself! Check the date and event. It was the day he became rebbe!! Explaning what he was stepping into! It is NOT standard Chassidic belief. No other Rebbe thinks he is a chelek of G-d!! And no other Rebbe wanted this man to claim it for him!October 25, 2011 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #820247
Midwesterner, isn’t the neshoma universally referred to as Chelek Eloka Mimaal?October 25, 2011 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #820248
Then ask yourself! Don’t go to a rebbe. Go to your next door neighbor! His neshama is the same chelek Elokah. He was explaining why he, as rebbe, is different from everyone else!
If you understand it that way, then the notzrim were correct too! JC was also a chelek Elokah mimaal!!
Read the article by R’ Chaim Dov. See what he says about philosophies developing from sources. From yegiah and horevania to understand the Emmes of Torah. Not finding good looking pull quote phrases and borrowing the language to justify a preconceived position. a la Yaakov Avinu lo meis.October 25, 2011 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #820249
“The vast majority of Rabbonim and Roshe Yeshiva and Poskim all say that to believe that a dead man is Moshiach, is kefirah.”
Name 1, please. Please provide a source.October 25, 2011 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #820250
BTW, that is the famous sicha of basi lgani, and I doubt any Chabadniks interpret it the way you translate it. Did they think just on that day he became divine?
In addition, I believe the Rebbe refused for a whole year to take the post, until he was begged to.October 25, 2011 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #820251
Pashute Yid, look above what I wrote to you about Kabbola. Indeed, anyone who takes literally “that a neshoma is a chelek Eloka Memal” is an apikores.October 25, 2011 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #820252
“but they have substituted the Rebbe for HaKodeshBorchu and daven to the Rebbe directly, depend on him for their welfare and parnassah, and have transferred their emunah to him.”
There is a machlokes Rishonim about the permissibility of the tefilla “machnisei rachamim” which is found at the end of selichos. On the surface, it appears as if we are davening to the malachim, or utilizing them as intermediaries between us and hashem, both of which some members of Lubavitch are being accused of by some. And NO, nobody has transferred any Emunah to the Rebbe. They (as do many Chassidim) ask the Rebbe to daven for them. Many people go to the kevarim of tzadikim (even their own parents and grandparents) too. Perhaps many misunderstand exactly what it means to go to a Rebbe or daven at a Kever, especially someone who is not an FFB (as are many members of the Lubavitch community). It doesnt make them an Apikores. It makes them mistaken IF in fact you know what they are thinking, which I dont think anyone can safely say about the overwhelming majority of Lubavitchers around the world.October 25, 2011 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #820253
“So what is attributed to Rav Ahron Feldman and all the others, including my Rov, definately makes sense.”
Not if you read the letter of Rav Feldman that was linked yesterday.October 25, 2011 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #820254
“And yes, it is k’fira and apikorsis to believe that a dead man can be Moshiach.”
Nobody believes in a second coming of the Rebbe. Those who still maintain that he is moshiach are those who maintain he did not die, but is rather in a state of “concealment” waiting for the appropriate time to reveal himself. As I and numerous people have already written (as does Rav Feldman in the letter that was linked here) stupidity does not equal apikorsus.October 25, 2011 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #820255
PY, do not just try to kasher anybody and everybody by hook or by crook.October 25, 2011 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #820256YW Moderator-80Member
i must say thats about the biggest whitewash, deliberate twisting and misunderstanding of an issue ive seen in a long time.October 25, 2011 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #820257
I second Mod.80.October 25, 2011 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #820258
“alive means he’s a deity,”
No, just stupidity.
“and the ones who are educated and should know better should be hated”
Educated in what?October 25, 2011 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #820259
Yes it does come from Basi Legani. I see you conferred with someone to check that out. (Half an hour ago, my comment was chinese to you. Now you know the sicha by name!) If the Chanadniks don’t interepret it that way, then how do they interepret it? And why was it taken out of later editions?
You may be aware that it is this very quote that triggered the Brisker Rav’s famous line of, “Ehr redt zich ein az ehr is Moshiach.” The rav passed away in 1959. So the biggest gedolim caught on a lot faster than the hamon am.
No one thinks that he thought he was Moshiach back in the Sorbonne or wherever he was in the past. That he didn’t accept in the beginning doesn’t prevent it from becoming the philosophy when it happens late. Only that the mantle of leadership grew very quickly on him and fit quite nicely once it was accepted.October 25, 2011 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #820260
Mdd, there is also a kabbalistic interpretation on the pasuk vyipach b’apav nishmas chaim in breishis that man dinafach midilei nafach. One who blows a soul into another, blows part of himself into the recipient.
There is also a famous shmuz by Reb Chaim Shmulevitz on the pasuk kedoshim tihyu ki kodosh ani hashem elokeichem. The medrash says yachol kamoni, talmud lomar ki kodosh ani hashem, kedushasi lamaala mikedushaschem. Reb Chaim asks what was the hava amina that we are as holy as the RBSH? He answers that ein hochi nami, if not for a miut, we would have the potential to be as holy as Him. That is what the pasuk in tehillim means, Vatechasrehu meat me’elokim. We are just a slight bit below the RBSH. This is gadlus haadam, what a person can accomplish. The RBSH gave us kochos far greater than any of us are aware of.
Now, I highly doubt that any Lubavitcher thinks the Rebbe created the world. All the other phrases they use are fluff, and fit in with all the chazals I have been quoting on this thread.October 25, 2011 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #820261
My dear esteemed Mr. 80: What was your last comment referring to?October 25, 2011 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #820262
Mod-80, I assume you are talking to me, and quite frankly, you are free to believe whatever you want.
Bottom line is, that the overwhelming majority of Lubavithers in the world in the world today ascribe no divinity to the Rebbe, do not daven TO the rebbe and do NOT believe the Rebbe runs the world. I am not a Lubavitcher, however, I work with quite a few, live among almost a dozen Lubavitch families have close family (of the seven krovim) who TEACH in Crown Heights Yeshivos (boys and girls) and they report that what I said about the overwhelming majority Lubavitchers is true. Believe what you wish about them, they are not looking for your support or approval.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.