October 25, 2011 1:06 am at 1:06 am #820194
Apushatayid, I was talking to the Pashute Yid.October 25, 2011 2:35 am at 2:35 am #820195
mdd, agreed 100% if you believe he’s dead, as opposed to shlit”a.October 25, 2011 3:53 am at 3:53 am #820196
Shlit”a or dead — it is not apikorsus, just stupidity.October 25, 2011 3:54 am at 3:54 am #820197
“I am 100% certain Rav Ahron Feldman did NOT say what you claim he did simply because it makes no sense.”
The vast majority of Rabbonim and Roshe Yeshiva and Poskim all say that to believe that a dead man is Moshiach, is kefirah. The same goes for davening to a dead Rebbe, proclaiming that the Rebbe runs the world, and deifying the man.
Unfortunately, this is now the belief of almost all Lubavitchers. It is very rare that you can find one who will say “The Rebbe is not Moshiach”
So what is attributed to Rav Ahron Feldman and all the others, including my Rov, definately makes sense. I wish it weren’t so as this post Rebbe death philosophy has created a split in klall Yisroel that may never be put back together. Lubavitch is now a rudderless ship.
Solution: appoint a new Rebbe and join klall Yisroel as it used to be.October 25, 2011 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #820198
Why does this discussion always come up in various non-Lubavitch circles? What is the benefit?
These discussions, sadly, bring to mind a lot of the things I see from people obviously more frum than me, who are saying and doing things which are not right, as people will do.
For me, seeing the Lubavitch van at my college in Teaneck many many years ago, was a warming sight that stayed with me to eventually pursue learning in Lakewood.
So, I will finalize my comment by saying those Lubavitch that physically go out of there way to find Jews in the frei world with the hopes of bringing them back, are doing a fantastic thing that needs to be done way more often. Even if there is just one person who attends a Shabbos meal and learns to daven and take on mitvos because of the Lubavitch efforts, that is a good thing.
In fairness to the posters here, maybe there is something I am not getting, but from my personal experience, they are AOK!!October 25, 2011 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #820199
Let us have a bit of empathy for Chabad. The Rebbe was a very great man, and a true Oheiv Yisroel. He lived very simply, and was a great gaon and lamdan. His sichos fill over 100 volumes. They are filled with both lamdus and nistar. His chakiras in those sichos are no less sharp than what you would hear at any Litvishe Yeshiva. He was knowledgeable about the ways of the world, having a secular education, and many mayselach seem to indicate he was a great baal eitza, if not a baal ruach hakodesh.
He was lebedig, composing and singing niggunim, and being at one of his farbrengens, which I was zocheh to go to when I was young, was an amazing experience. No question he was raui to be moshiach, just the generation was not zocheh.
It is hard with Chabad to come to grips with the loss of their beloved leader and teacher. There probably is nobody who can fill his shoes. So yes, they are getting a bit meshugeneh, but it is out of grief and missing their Rebbe. The work they do is amazing. Shlomo Carlebach said that when Columbus discovered America, he found that Chabad was already there.
Let us remember Gavi and Rivka Holtzberg who were beautiful products of the Chabad educational system. The finest human beings ever. Any system that can produce such quality, is definitely doing something right.
What we need is achdus, not fighting and knocking other groups.October 25, 2011 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #820200
Pashuteh Yid, Achdus means loving all Jews, NOT becoming kofrim or allowing klal yisroel to become kofrim. Do we say “yeshu is moshiach” to have achdus with Messianic Jews who have unfortunately been taken by missionaries, or do we stick to our beliefs? Do we say achdus with our Conservative and reform brethren and say “toevah marriage is now acceptable” or do we say “We love all Jews, but we do not allow that in our circles”?
Hate the sin, not the sinner. I love all Jews, including apikorsim. I just hate apikorsus.October 25, 2011 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #820201
Pashute Yid, al pi Torah, you can not just say:”oh, he’s a nice guy, does different mitsvos, so let’s close our eyes to his avoada zorah problem.”.October 25, 2011 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #820202
Jothar, you are wrong, it is a mitsva to hate real apikorsim.October 25, 2011 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #820203
In my experience with Chabad (and I have quite a bit), the Messianist movement is overblown by a lot of outside people. It could be that in certain communities there are high numbers of people with problematic beliefs, but I think the average Chabadnik does not believe that the Rebbe is still alive or necessarily is still Moshiach (they almost all think that he could be though).
Also, it’s a little hard to call believing that a dead man can be Moshiach Apikorsus. We might not hold that it’s true, but it’s hard to call it Kefira just because a dead man cannot do everything the Rambam describes in the Sefer Hamitzvos. It is not a belief that we want to let permeate into basic Judaism, but I don’t think we can call it Apikorsus.October 25, 2011 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #820204
Pashuteh Yid…Beautifully said! As you know, all of us have to watch our speech in one way or another, and that includes when the topic is Lubavitch, so not everyone will share your warm view, unfortunately.October 25, 2011 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #820205
One thing about the issue of apikursis. We have discussed previoulsy on other threads (where the topic may have been Rav Kook) that it is quite possible that one cannot be an apikores based on his beliefs. What may be required is a life of hefkerus, i.e., throwing away Torah and Mitzvos. The belief is only an excuse to leave the Torah and be porek ol. However, one who fully keeps the mitzvos may not be an apikorus. The Chazon Ish discussed this in a few places, and it is not at all a simple matter.
Furthermore, as others noted, the gemara itself mentions the possibility that a deceased individual may be moshiach in Perek Chelek. So that belief may not be apikorsus in the first place.
Finally, it is highly doubtful that any Chabadnik believes the Rebbe is the Ribbono Shel Olam. They are simply behaving in accordance with the mishna in pirkei avos tzaddik gozer vHKBH mekayem, HKBH gozer, vtzaddik mevatel. Let us not exagerate the extent of what goes on.October 25, 2011 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #820206
“In my experience with Chabad (and I have quite a bit), the Messianist movement is overblown by a lot of outside people.’
Please prove me wrong. See if you can get any Lubavitcher to say unequivocally that the rebbe is not Moshiach.
The vast majority of Rabbonim and Roshe Yeshiva and Poskim cannot be lying to us. And yes, it is k’fira and apikorsis to believe that a dead man can be Moshiach.
And don’t lecture about loshon hara; see the viciousness of Crown Heights toward Reb Ahron Kotler zt’l, Rav Shach zt’l, the Satmer chassidim, and many others.
Do not mistake a Lubavitch rest stop as a hechsher for their dangerous Moshiach pronouncements.October 25, 2011 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #820207
Finally, it is highly doubtful that any Chabadnik believes the Rebbe is the Ribbono Shel Olam
i think you are right.
but they have substituted the Rebbe for HaKodeshBorchu and daven to the Rebbe directly, depend on him for their welfare and parnassah, and have transferred their emunah to him.
similar to the process by which the sun and other messengers of Hashem became avodah ZarahOctober 25, 2011 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #820208msseekerMember
If what mod 80 says is true, the onus is on Chabad to prove how it’s different from Xtianity.October 25, 2011 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #820209
it is of course in no way fashion or form similar to x-anty.
however one could certainly make a case for the similarity of its current state to the origin of x-anityOctober 25, 2011 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #820210
Msseeker, in general, the difference is quite clear. The Christians do not keep the Taryag Mitzvos, while Chabad does.October 25, 2011 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #820211
Mod.80, to believe that the Rebbe is a part of G-d is totally Christianity(the concept of Trinity)
Cherrybim, Gemora says openly that a dead man could be Moshiach.
Pashute Yid, the views on apikorsus that you bring up are very shvere da’as yochid shittos.October 25, 2011 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #820212msseekerMember
“one could certainly make a case for the similarity of its current state to the origin of x-anity.”
That’s what I meant. Thanks.October 25, 2011 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #820213
Pashute Yid, you are so off!!! The reason why Christianity is avodah zorah and “yehareg ve’lo’ya’avor” is because they hold that oso Ish is a part of G-d! (and not becuase they do not keep all the mitsvos)October 25, 2011 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #820214
Mod.80, to believe that the Rebbe is a part of G-d is totally Christianity(the concept of Trinity)
is that what they hold?October 25, 2011 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #820215
Mdd: The Gemara does not quite say that so clearly. Also, one opinion in the Gemara is that Moshiach won’t come. Holding like that is Apikorsus, wouldn’t you agree?October 25, 2011 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #820216
You bring up a good point but I, for one, would not be able to test it. I would not approach someone I see in a Chabad house and ask them to say unequivocally that the Rebbe is not Moshiach. I would not be confrontational to any frum yid like that
Are you saying no Lubativch would say they are still waiting for Moshiach?
Also, having spent time at succah parties and lectures at Chabad over the years, no one has ever stated the Rebbe and Moshiach in the same sentence to me. The only thing a little untraditional which I have witnessed is the ending of davening by stating, “We want Moshiach now.”
Regarding lectures on Loshon Hora. We cannot get enough of that and I know you agree that any incident where there is loshon hora, c”vs, does not give a green light for another party to proceed.
Suppose Yidden working on every continent for Chabad were to read this thread?? Would they be the wiser for holding back or for coming out with their thoughts on non-Lubavitch Jews? Do we even know how they feel about us for not being more Moshiach or Kaballah enthusiastic?
If someone does not like something about a segment of frum Judaism, a rebbe, a shul, a member of a study group, etc; handle it with some thought and less speech. I try to do this myself.October 25, 2011 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #820217
BTGuy: Unfortunately (or fortunately, probably) you apparently haven’t met any Yechiniks. They are a problem. How serious a problem is a very good Halachic question. Interestingly enough, those who deny that he is dead is probably less of a Halachic problem than those who think they will come back. Those who deny he is dead are denying reality. Those who think he will come back are altering a basic tenet of Judaism.October 25, 2011 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #820218
I agree- we shouldn’t target frum Judaism on this forum. Which is why we’re targeting chabad, which has ventured away from the 13 ikkarim.
As for hating apikorsism, believing the rebbe is dead ans moshiach is not apikorsus. alive means he’s a deity, and the ones who are educated and should know better should be hated. Most chabadniks are tinokos shenishbu and should be treated with ahavas yisroel, and we should be mekareiv them back to emunah in Hashem.October 25, 2011 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #820219
Moderator 80, some of them definetely do.
Sam2,Gemora says that Daniel could be Moshiach, and it was not universally rejected as the “already ate it” shitta was.October 25, 2011 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #820220
an illuminating article by Rabbi Chaim Dov Keller, shlita,
Rosh Yeshiva of the Telshe Yeshiva, ChicagoOctober 25, 2011 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #820221
“Gemora says openly that a dead man could be Moshiach.”
Both the Rambam and the rebbe have said that techiyas ha’meisim cannot occur until after the arrival of a living Moshiach. So which open gemora is that again?October 25, 2011 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #820223
M80: Nothing from that website should ever be called “illuminating”. That site is Mamash Sinas Chinam, regardless of the legitimate Ta’anos that exist against Chabad.October 25, 2011 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #820224
i dont know anything about that website but i do know the esteemed Rosh Yeshiva, ShlitaOctober 25, 2011 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #820225
Jothar, saying he is alive does not imply he is divine.Stop it already.October 25, 2011 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #820226
M80: That could be. I am not familiar with the Rosh Yeshivah. I am familiar with the site and it is a disgusting place run by those with an illogical and visceral hatred for Chabad that goes far beyond normal Kana’us.October 25, 2011 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #820227
Even if the anti-Lubavitch are correct (and I am not saying they are) what is to be gained by making such declarative statements about them, which I am sure you had to have experienced directly and are not parroting from things you have heard? Lubavitch dont add mitzvos to the collective mitzva pool that benefit us all?October 25, 2011 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #820228
Sam2, fighting against avodah zorah is not sinas chinom.October 25, 2011 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #820229midwesternerParticipant
The Rebbe has himsef stated that he is “Atzmus ein sof mislabesh b’guf gashmi” as was printed in Likutei Sichos vol II, page 500-501. Can be found in any copy printed before 1980. Has been deleted from any copies printed since. Or in the original verbal Yiddish quote, “Dos iz atzmuso alein, vi Er hot zich areingeshtelt in a guf”
The link to the article by R’ Chaim Dov has nothing to do with that website. The article was published in the late lamented Jewish Observer. And yes, I know the esteemed Rosh Yeshiva as well. I have even discussed some of these issues with him personally.October 25, 2011 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #820230
i just now spent a good deal of time perusing the site
i did not detect any sinas chinam or any hatred
it seemed to me to be an erliche website
of course i dont know their history or who the people are behind the website, so i have not formed any definite opinion
here is from their main page, seems reasonable to me:
Because their teachers are among those educating our children in mainstream frum schools in nearly every city in North America. What is their curriculum?
Because their shochtim are entrusted with the delicate and precise task of producing kosher meat in greater numbers than any other group and their sofrim are producing significant numbers of sifrei Torah, tefilin and mezuzos. What are their kavanos?
Because their rabbis are leading shuls and guiding and staffing influential kashrus agencies throughout the world. What are the consequences?
Because their ideology is false and our own silence on the subject communicates a very strange message to our children and to the rest of the world.
A Note On Hatred.
We have long noted how Lubavitchers often respond to even the mildest and most balanced criticism with the charge of sinas chinum. This is true no matter how objective or even friendly is the tone of any letter or book on the subject. This is also true regardless of the lack of any evidence of actual bad feeling. It has unfortunately become utterly predictable that the principle reactions to any suggestion that there might be some problems in Chabad ideology or practice consist of deeply emotional (and often incoherent) accusations of personal hatred and venom.
This is a real shame because it makes it virtually impossible for anyone to engage in intelligent and productive dialogue on the issues that really matter.October 25, 2011 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #820231
Mdd, again, I challenge you to prove that any sane person believes that the Rebbe is G-d. They may believe he is now with G-d, as everybody does about their deceased relatives. The Rebbe never said he created the world, did he? Not even a whacko believes that.
BTW, was in 770 recently for a wedding, and there is a dvar torah on the walls explaning that the Rebbe thought encouraging Jews to believe in the imminance of moshiach is good for strengthening their emunah and this zchus will bring moshiach. Not that the Rebbe was moshiach.
J—s, on the other hand said that I am G-d, and you know longer have to do mitzvos, just believe in me, and I will save you. This is nothing like Chabad.
Also, I just heard from my own rebbe, a gadol hador, mechaber of 12 sefarim on shas (not a chabadnik by any means) that he once went to the Rebbe for a bracha for a shidduch for his son. The Rebbe told him, look, all I can do is daven, and you will also daven, and hopefully your son will find a shidduch soon, and kach havei, he found a shidduch.October 25, 2011 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #820232
Moderator 80, Yasher Koach.October 25, 2011 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #820233
Moderator -80, you stated something very important which cannot be overlooked, “because they are our beloved brothers and sisters.” Keeping your statement in mind is bound to elevate this conversation. Perhaps if some Lubavitch readers would like to state the reason for the beliefs they have which are different to ours, that would also add tremendously. They learn, do mitvos, do chesed, daven…etc. I cannot believe they all drank from a tainted water fountain. I would like their members to add sound reasons as to what made them believe as they do with regards to the Rebbe and Moshiach.October 25, 2011 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #820234
I too just got off the site and fail to see any sina, in fact; as just stated above, Ahavas Yisroel is the underlying purpose for which these articles were written.October 25, 2011 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #820235
J—s, on the other hand said that I am G-d, and you know longer have to do mitzvos, just believe in me, and I will save you.
this is not at all what he said. he believed in Hashem entirely and in His Torah. his followers changed everything most notablt peter-rabbit.
the history of how this silly nonsense began has been extremely distorted by the media.October 25, 2011 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #820236
it was a quoteOctober 25, 2011 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #820237
Midwesterner, I don’t know the context of that quote. But compare to the midrash, Ani Hashem shochen bsoch bnei yisroel, about which the medrash says, bsoch lev kol echad v’echad, or something similar.
In general, the Chabad mantra has always been to establish a dira btachtonim for the RBSH.October 25, 2011 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #820238
Pashute Yid, denail is not a place in Egypt.October 25, 2011 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #820239
BTW, why not consider how Reb Moshe Feinstein and Reb Yoshe Ber treated the Rebbe with tremendous kovod and ahava, as evidenced by their letters to each other. If there was any problem, Reb Moshe surely would have made it known in his lifetime.October 25, 2011 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #820240midwesternerParticipant
PY: The context of that quote comes from the first sicha delivered as rebbe on 10 Shevat 5711. It was a response to the question, “If Judaism does not allow us reach Hashem through an intermediary, then how are we permitted to ask a rebbe to daven for us? Is he not an intermediary?”
The rebbe answered, that going to a Rebbe is not going to an intermediary. It is like going to Hashem directly, as the rebbe is a chelek of Hashem himself. Then in explanation of that line comes my quote printed above.October 25, 2011 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #820241
although Rav Shach, tz’l, was critical of the Rebbe, certainly the Rebbe was a very great man.
no one is really claiming the problem is the Rebbe, rather his followersOctober 25, 2011 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #820242yitayningwutParticipant
Just to support Mod 80’s point about Christianity, here is an incredible letter from R’ Yaakov Emden, if you have the patience to read through the old print (I think it’s out of print since then):
Start from about halfway down. You can find a English translation floating around on the internet.October 25, 2011 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #820243
Midwesterner, so then the Rebbe was not saying this about himself, but about any rebbe of any sect. This may be standard chassidic belief, whatever it means.October 25, 2011 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #820244
Pashute Yid, even if they came out with crosses on their necks,you would still say “it is okay”.
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