August 3, 2012 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #10281662scentsParticipant
However I understand Wolfs point. Hitler was mean and evil and should not be used to bring out such ‘point’s’.August 3, 2012 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #1028167WolfishMusingsParticipant
42’s point was that even if someone is smart, does not mean that what they are doing is correct or justified.
I acknowledged the fact that he could have made the point that she wasn’t correct. My issue with him wasn’t the fact that he didn’t agree with me. My issue was the gratuitous comparison to the most evil person the world has seen in at least the last five hundred years, if not more.
I’m sorry if you can’t see that.
The WolfAugust 3, 2012 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #1028168MDGParticipant
Assuming that the OP is telling the truth, which I have no reason not to, then I cannot believe that she is a feminist. AFAIK a femmeroid would: 1) only learn enough to say “I can learn like the men” just to prove a point and she would not learn for 10 years 2) would not respect a full-time learning man because of the patriarchal system. 3) not have so many kids.
BTW the Mishna (and subsequently Rambam and Sh”A) use the expression on not teaching a daughter Torah She-Baal Peh. To me that implies that a lady can go on her own and learn like from Artscroll. Speaking of Artscroll, I heard that the way their editors know if the wrote clearly was to have a smart frum woman (who never learned Gemara) read their explanation.August 4, 2012 12:04 am at 12:04 am #1028170
Rav Moshe permitted women learning g’morah and having women giving a g’mora shiur to other women. He stated that it was not permitted, however, when it’s apparent that the women are doing it for feminist purposes.August 5, 2012 3:54 am at 3:54 am #1028171
The Igros Moshe YD 3:86 says that the Chachamim commanded that women can not be taught Mishna or Gemora since it is oral Torah and it is like teaching them tiflos (promiscuity). However, they can be taught Pirkei Avos since it has Mussar and has hanhagos tovas.August 5, 2012 6:54 am at 6:54 am #1028172
To you – Rebbetzin Goldenxxxxxxx:
If you’re takeh (yeshivish shprach) such a baki(es), and know all yeshivish related lamdus, maybe you can tell me who was the mechaber of the baal hamaor.August 5, 2012 7:18 am at 7:18 am #1028173chocandpatienceMember
choppy; where do you get that definition of ‘tiflos’?August 5, 2012 7:31 am at 7:31 am #1028174
Zeeskite… You know anyone can just Google it… Right?August 5, 2012 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #1028175
Choppy: Yeah, I thought so too. I’m not sure what Cherrybim is referring to. That case is talking about a school though. He does have a different T’shuvah about a co-ed society meeting (“Meeting Shel Society” in his Hebrew) and says that a D’var Torah can be given and doesn’t limit it to Torah Shebiksav. So maybe he holds like the Drishah somewhere else. But correct, without seeing him explicitly state that somewhere, I would assume that Cheerybim is mistaken.August 5, 2012 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #1028176
chocandpatience: That’s how Rashi defines it. (See the Mishna Sotah 20a.)August 5, 2012 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1028177
I know. I posed the question for her (better yet, maybe him).August 5, 2012 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #1028178chocandpatienceMember
choppy, thanks for the source.August 6, 2012 3:05 am at 3:05 am #1028179
“I would assume that Cheerybim is mistaken.”
This was a direct halacha l’maise shaila to Rav Moshe from a mageddes of g’mara shiur in Brooklyn due to complaints of the husband of an attendee.August 6, 2012 4:36 am at 4:36 am #1028180
Cherrybim: It seems to go against what is written in the T’shuvos. Unless she has a letter or this is publicly known, it just won’t carry the same weight. I’m sorry.August 6, 2012 4:38 am at 4:38 am #1028181
The Igros Moshe says otherwise.August 6, 2012 7:55 am at 7:55 am #1028182KozovMember
“who nowadays can claim that they are on such a level and can learn Torah without the possibility of it turning into “Hevel” (nothingness)?!?!”
Health- Appparently men can, that’s why they can learn Torah Shebaal Peh.August 6, 2012 10:18 am at 10:18 am #1028183ToiParticipant
omg! i want to be a mageddes!!August 6, 2012 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1028184YW Moderator-42Moderator
“Wolf: 42’s point was that even if someone is smart, does not mean that what they are doing is correct or justified.”
This is indeed what I meant by the post. I did not chas v’shalom mean to compare your friend to Hitler, I was just trying to point out that “smart” does not necessarily mean “good”. There are some who can learn daf yomi and understand it and some who can only learn a few lines of gemara per day and understand it. There are many men who it is wrong for them to learn daf yomi because they don’t get much out of it and could be using their time better by covering less ground but going more in depth. L’fum tzara agra. My point was that just because she is smart doesn’t mean she was always right and many, if not most, people here on this forum believe that women learning daf yomi is wrong. I’m sorry if I offended you with the comment.August 6, 2012 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #1028185enlightenedjewMember
Sigghhhhh. Godwin’s Law strikes again…August 6, 2012 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1028186far eastMember
42- tell that to the people who believe women shouldn’t learn daf yomi cause they don’t have the intellect man doesAugust 6, 2012 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #1028187WolfishMusingsParticipant
I’m sorry if I offended you with the comment.
As a general rule, I *only* use terms such as Nazi or Hitler if I am, in fact, talking about Nazis or Hitler.
The WolfAugust 6, 2012 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #1028188shlishiMember
far east: That is the opinion of the Torah and is cited in the Shulchan Aruch and many many meforshim.August 6, 2012 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #1028190
The Rebbitzen still did not answer my question above. Maybe some of the Rabbis can?August 6, 2012 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1028191
Choppy: So it would seem, though it is possible he holds of the Drisha (he never explicitly Paskens against it, does he?). The issue of a school curriculum would be problematic even according to the Mekilim by a woman learning. (Read the introduction to Chelek 8, by the way. I don’t hold of 8 and 9 the way I hold of the first 7, but there is a very interesting story about R’ Moshe’s grandmother in the introduction.)August 6, 2012 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1028192the NORMAL personMember
my wife indeed learns daf hoyomi every day without fail. which includes washing drying looking after the kids preparing meals ect.a meesage for the rebbezen just wait till you “LEARN” the gamera about women prohibited to learn………….what will happen thenAugust 6, 2012 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1028193
Far east and shlishi – it says a woman doesn’t have daas. Daas is not exactly intellect. We know there are some women who are more intellectual than many men and vice versa, so we know that’s not true. Daas, rather, means a strictly logical approach. Women, in general, are more emotionally oriented creatures than men. Thus, Chazal say that since halacha and the Talmud should be dissected with a purely logical approach, it is unbefitting of an emotionally thinking person to delve into such matters.
This also fits what we scientifically know about male and female biological systems. Women are more prone to hormonal mood swings than men are. Women are also more inclined to naturally feel compassion and are better at detecting the emotional dispositions of other people than men. This can also influence their judgement on minute hairsplitting diyunim in learning. They’re built for a different purpose, and should therefore use their strengths to accomplish the intention that they were created for, not the intention that we were created for.
Just like a lion can’t chew hay, so too can a buffalo not hunt gazelle. It doesn’t make the buffalo worse, it’s just different. If a buffalo tries to act like a lion it won’t succeed, and even if it appears to be a lion because it joins the lion pride in gnawing on the bones of the downed gazelle, it will never become a successful hunter.August 6, 2012 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #1028194KozovMember
Wolf I totally agree to your sensitivity. Shem Rishoim Yirkav, Yimach Shmom VizichramAugust 6, 2012 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1028195
“Unless she has a letter or this is publicly known”
It is publically known.August 6, 2012 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #1028196
No such thing is well known among Rav Moshe’s talmidim. Besides that the Igros Moshe says otherwise.August 6, 2012 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1028197apushatayidParticipant
“maybe you can tell me who was the mechaber of the baal hamaor.”
That would be the Baal Hamamaor.August 7, 2012 1:29 am at 1:29 am #1028198far eastMember
Curiosity- that’s fair. What you are saying is true about males generally being more logic based and females being more emotionally based. But my question is- this is not true all the time. There are males who are emotionally driven and females who are logically driven. By this logic certain women should be able to learn gemera and certain men shouldn’t?
This is why I feel that certain women should be allowed to learn gemera because chances are the ones who are interested in learning it are more intellect basedAugust 7, 2012 2:11 am at 2:11 am #1028199
Just to be clear, the Ba’al Hamaor did not write the Ba’al Hamaor. V’hameivin Yavin.August 7, 2012 2:17 am at 2:17 am #1028200
Sam2, no he didn’t. However, the baal Hamaor is accredited with being the author of the baal Hamaor. Hahaha!August 7, 2012 2:52 am at 2:52 am #1028201yytzParticipant
The Chida said that women can be taught Gemara; they just can’t be forced to learn. Maybe Rav Soloveitchik was relying on the Chida when he permitted teaching Talmud to girls (delivering the first lecture himself)? The Lubavitcher Rebbe said that now that women are more educated in secular studies they need more intensive Jewish education, and that it is mandatory to teach them Oral Torah. But what he meant by that was Ein Yaakov, not the Gemara itself.August 7, 2012 2:56 am at 2:56 am #1028202
” This is why I feel that certain women should be allowed to learn gemera because chances are the ones who are interested in learning it are more intellect based “
Far east – first of all, the Torah obligated men to learn Torah, not women. We can’t say halacha should be that emotional men shouldn’t learn based on our perception of the reasoning behind the Torah’s laws, which are absolutes. Hashem said all men must learn, so all men must learn.
With regards to women learning, there is no real reason for them to learn Torah except to know the halacha that applies to them. With regards to your statement quoted above, I would say that first of all you shouldn’t decide what the halacha is based on how you feel (which chazal say is a tendency of women, and one of the reasons why they shouldnt learn) – ask a rav.
Second, I disagree with your presumption. Chances are, most women who are interested in Torah are not “intellect based”. It’s far more likely that they either have feminist motivations – trying to be “equal to men” (which is flawed thinking, as I explained earlier), or they are just curious to learn what they perceive as forbidden knowledge. Ironic because I’m not a woman, but chazal tell us women are much more curious than men, and telling them not to learn Torah is like leaving them in an empty room with a big red button in the middle of it and telling them to “not push the red button”.
Furthermore, even if you go with the poskim who say it’s muttar for a woman to learn gemara, and even if you are discussing a woman that is doing it for the “right reasons” (ie: doing a mitzva), then she should first realize that it’s more imperative for a person to do a mitzva that s/he IS commanded than one that s/he is NOT commanded. Neglecting a mitzvah that is a chiyuv to do a mitzva that is reshus is an aveira. Women have many mitzvas that they are obligated to do within their role as captains of the home. Even simple chores like doing the dishes, feeding the kids, doing laundry, which are not “mandatory mitzvas”, add to shalom bayis and are therefore mitzvas. Shalom bayis is a bigger mitzvah than the mitzvah for a woman to learn gemara, even according to the poskim who mattir it, because one is metzuveh and one is eino metzuveh. Therefore, it follows that if a woman uses her time to learn gemara when she could be doing things that increase shalom bayis, raising her children, or tending to her husband, she may be doing an aveira.August 7, 2012 3:56 am at 3:56 am #1028203
“No such thing is well known among Rav Moshe’s talmidim”
Wrong.August 7, 2012 8:49 am at 8:49 am #1028204ToiParticipant
oh, ok i like this game- Right.August 7, 2012 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #1028205
Curiosity: I’m not sure what you meant by that. I was making a grammatical point.
And I know a lot of girls who learn. Many are also feminists, but they don’t learn to be “equal” to boys. A lot of them learn because they see beauty in Torah and have an unquechable thirst for knowledge and Emes. That’s what I see all the time in girls who come through NCSY and the like. They’re not learning for the wrong reasons.August 7, 2012 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1028206
If they are feminists, the most certainly are doing so for very wrong reasons.August 7, 2012 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1028207
Sam2 – learning leshmah is a big nisayon even for bochurim in Yeshiva, and I’ve heard it being brought up to roshei yeshivah in hashkafa sessions many, many times by talmidim who have been in beis medrash for not a small number of years. Therefore, I highly doubt NCSY girls who are going through kiruv are interested in learning gemara because of “an unquechable thirst for knowledge and Emes.” It’s probably just curiosity in their own heritage. Or perhaps I’m wrong and this is just another example of the lack of the manifestation of the yetzer hara in people who have no obligation to do a mitzvah. Regardless though, I was discussing frum or Modox girls, not people going to kiruv who mamash have no clue in what’s nahoug and not nahoug in regards to learning. This is coming from someone who has been mekurav partially thanks to NCSY.August 7, 2012 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #1028208
Sam -“And I know a lot of girls who learn. Many are also feminists, but they don’t learn to be “equal” to boys. A lot of them learn because they see beauty in Torah and have an unquechable thirst for knowledge and Emes. That’s what I see all the time in girls who come through NCSY and the like. They’re not learning for the wrong reasons.”
I’d like to repeat part of a post of mine from the other topic:
“Why are these women looking to do Mitzvos that they aren’t Mechuyav in? (If it’s a Mitzva btw, not an Issur.) They can’t find any Mitzvos where they are Mechuyav in? Here’s one that they are – go to a hospital or nursing home and help feed the patients. You can even find enough Frum ladies that need this that you can be busy with this 24/7.
I’m sick of these Women’s libs and then covering it up with religiousity!”
Or help some needy family with housework and/or childrearing.August 7, 2012 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #1028209computer777Participant
If it’s a mitzvah, why does it bother you? It’s not your business which mitzvos they pick. Even if you think it’s better to do something else with their time, it’s not your place to critisize.
Additionally, they may be learning after they worked hard a whole day, and this is their relaxing time before they go to bed.
Pretty chauvinistic to decide if she has time she shouldn’t use it for her brain, but rather help someone with their housework.
Just like there are women who do things to prove they are just as good as men, there are men who don’t want women to do things just to prove they are not as good as men.August 7, 2012 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #1028210gavra_at_workParticipant
Pretty chauvinistic to decide if she has time she shouldn’t use it for her brain, but rather help someone with their housework.
The Torah is “chauvinistic”. This idea of housework over mitzvos is the very reason why women are Patur from Mitzvos Aseh Shehazman Grama. Ask not on the post, but on G-d Himself.August 7, 2012 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #1028211
GAW – Thanks.August 7, 2012 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1028212ohr chodeshMember
Well said Gavra. Computer7: Like Gavra said, the Torah HaKedosha and Halacha is chavanistic. The Torah and Halacha tell us that women aren’t to learn (with few exceptions) Torah Shebalpeh. And to teach it to women will lead them to promiscuity. Shulchan Aruch and Rambam pasken halacha that women’s minds aren’t geared towards Torah study.August 7, 2012 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #1028213
computer777 -“If it’s a mitzvah, why does it bother you? It’s not your business which mitzvos they pick. Even if you think it’s better to do something else with their time, it’s not your place to critisize.”
Your response seems to be an emotional one, not a logical one. But even so I’ll respond with logic.
If you have been reading the posts, you’d have seen that I hold that women are Not allowed to learn Gemmora.
This post above was going to s/o who holds that they are.
As far as which to pick (Mitzvos) -I’ll reply simply that even if their learning is the same as men, it wouldn’t be so simple that they can say -Well I’m learning now -so I can’t do other Mitzvos. The Halacha is if there are others to do these Mitzvos, then you can do learning instead. If there aren’t, then the other Mitzvos take precedence. There definitely is a demand for people to feed sick people and to help needy people in their homes. Whether this demand requires that we have to take guys out of Yeshiva to do this – is doubtful. But for women to say -“I’m learning now so I don’t have to do these things of Chessed” -would be ridiculous.
Their learning would not take precedence over these other Mitzvos!
“Additionally, they may be learning after they worked hard a whole day, and this is their relaxing time before they go to bed.”
Again, even if this were a man he isn’t allowed to learn like this. The Torah requires s/o to learn with many conditions, eg. with fear and awe, etc. You can’t curl up with a Gemmora like you do with a book. OTOH, some people are too Frum to go on the Net, or read Goyishe books or even Ch’vs watch TV/Movies to relax. (I personally am not getting into whether all these things are permitted or not.) So what can these people do to relax? These people now have available Jewish newspapers, mags, etc. which many people are using for their relaxation time.August 7, 2012 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #1028214
I see not to many talmudicians were able to answer my question posed to the “Rebbitzen” above.
Maybe someone could clarify the concept of ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????.August 7, 2012 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #1028215gavra_at_workParticipant
OC, Health – Baruch T’hiye.August 7, 2012 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #1028216MDGParticipant
“The Torah and Halacha tell us that women aren’t to learn (with few exceptions) Torah Shebalpeh.”
My impression is that a man is not supposed to teach a woman, not that she can’t learn. The Nafka Mina is that if she buys her own Artscroll and learns by herself, then she is allowed to.
“Pretty chauvinistic to decide if she has time she shouldn’t use it for her brain, but rather help someone with their housework.”
Housework needs to get done and someone has to do it. We all have our jobs and priorities. I think that most men here would rather be learning full time, but life has its demands and most of us can’t learn full time (see Brachot 36b).August 7, 2012 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #1028217
GAW. You responded correctly, and you said much with few words. Chazak ubaruch.
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