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I’m just a lowly am haaretz and really should not be sticking my nose into such learned discussions. However, this forum being what it is just begs for an am haaretz like me to do just that. So, in response to those who state outright or strongly imply there is an absolute issur for females to learn torah she bal peh why was there womens seating at the siyum hashas, didn’t they violate this issur by their attendance at the siyum as well as the haschalas hashas? At the very least, why weren’t they asked to leave during those portions of the evening? Were the organizers in violation of lifnei iver by selling them a seat?
Curiosity: I was somehow involved in a weird age group from a few NCSY regions. These NCSYers were mostly Frum coming into NCSY and it was not the public school-type Kiruv that it usually is in most places. (And your Kasha isn’t a Kasha. In my experience, those who have the most desire to learn Lishma are not those who spend so much time doing it. Those who learn very little have a much easier time learning Lishmah for those precious few moments than those who have and use all day to learn.)
Sam2.. your terutz to my kasha would imply that girls who begin learning leshmah shouldn’t make a habit of it because they will come to learn shlo leshmah, which is assur for a girl lekulei alma.
Curiosity: It’s Assur for a girl to learn Shelo Lishmah? We certainly don’t promote anti-Torah ideals, but when did people who don’t care about Torah get to create new Issurim for us? If you assume that it’s Muttar for a girl to learn on her own, then there’s no reason not to say Mitoch Shelo Lishmah Bah Lishmah by this. And if you don’t hold like the Drishah, then being Lishmah doesn’t really help.
BSD, IMHO:
I’m using “lishmah” to be le’afukei feministic reasons, which are the likely motivating factors if she’s not learning due to “an unquenchable thirst for Torah knowledge” as you proposed before. If shelo lishmah implies femenism – which I strongly believe it would – then yes, it would be assur for a girl to learn shelo lishmah, and “ein mitzvah baah biydei aveira” knocks out “mishelo lishma ba lishma” for girls in this case because it’s a davar sh’eino metsuvah. There is no precedence, that I’m aware of, of using “mishelo lishma ba lishma”, (which is not a pashut heter legabei learning Torah even for men) for a davar sh’eino metzuveh.
Health: They can’t find any Mitzvos where they are Mechuyav in? Here’s one that they are – go to a hospital or nursing home and help feed the patients. You can even find enough Frum ladies that need this that you can be busy with this 24/7.
I’m sick of these Women’s libs and then covering it up with religiousity!”
Or help some needy family with housework and/or childrearing.
GAW: The Torah is “chauvinistic”. This idea of housework over mitzvos is the very reason why women are Patur from Mitzvos Aseh Shehazman Grama. Ask not on the post, but on G-d Himself.
GAW: The reason a woman is not obligated in time bound mitzvos is because of her own familial obligations. It isn’t because she is obligated to do chesed outside her home. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I never heard that women are more mechuyav in doing chessed outside the home than men are.
Health: A woman is allowed to decide what mitzvah to do (supposing as you stated if her learning is indeed a mitzvah). No, she doesn’t have to instead go to a nursing home to feed elderly instead, or go help others with housework. When was the last time you did that? And don’t tell me that you are required to learn, so you need not do those mitzvos. You spend a lot of time online, is it not more important to do such chessed?
You can’t curl up with a Gemmora like you do with a book.
If a woman wants to learn gemorah (provided she is allowed to), then she can indeed learn after she fills her other obligations, even if it’s late at night, or maybe on Shabbos, or whenever it is she finds the time.
Why if a woman goes bowling, swimming, or other activity, it’s all fine, but if she decides to learn Torah Shebal Peh (provided she’s allowed to), it all of the sudden becomes, she should find another mitzvah to do instead?
I read in the sefer “Halichos Bas Yisroel”, that if a woman wants to learn from her own will, she is allowed to.
The father of R’ Shalom Shwadron, who was the son of the Maharshal, told his wife (the mother of R’ Shalom), you do so much for me, tell me how I can show my appreciation. She responded that he should learn with her gemarah. He told her, the gemorah says he can’t do that, but he will learn out loud so that she can hear his learning, and this way she will also be learning. So you see, very chashuva women can also have a great desire to learn gemorah. It has nothing to do with feminism. R’ Shalom stated that his mother dabbled in Torah Shebaal Peh (taking from the book “voice of truth”).
comp777: A woman is obligated to fulfill her household duties before so-called “learning” what she is not required (at best) to learn.
Curiosity- I think Mitoch Shelo Lishma Ba Lishma is a heavily relied on “Heter”. The lashon is actually “*liolam* yilmod…” because its impossible to start out learning selflessly and for the right reasons and it takes a lot longer than you think to get there.
computer777 -“Health: A woman is allowed to decide what mitzvah to do (supposing as you stated if her learning is indeed a mitzvah). No, she doesn’t have to instead go to a nursing home to feed elderly instead, or go help others with housework. When was the last time you did that? And don’t tell me that you are required to learn, so you need not do those mitzvos. You spend a lot of time online, is it not more important to do such chessed?”
You either didn’t understand my post or you’re deliberately ignoring it. Yes, men have to do Chessed. Being on the Net isn’t in place of doing Mitzvos and noone thought this and you knew this! So why aren’t men running all day to do Chessed? Because they don’t have to stop their learning for this Mitzva because there are others that are doing it. OTOH, women can Not claim their learning takes precedence over doing Chessed, even if you hold it’s a Mitzva! The only way they could say I want to learn now, like Daf Yomi, if there wasn’t any Chessed to do. And in our day and age, there is no such thing as no Chessed to do!
“If a woman wants to learn gemorah (provided she is allowed to), then she can indeed learn after she fills her other obligations, even if it’s late at night, or maybe on Shabbos, or whenever it is she finds the time.
Why if a woman goes bowling, swimming, or other activity, it’s all fine, but if she decides to learn Torah Shebal Peh (provided she’s allowed to), it all of the sudden becomes, she should find another mitzvah to do instead?”
Again you either didn’t understand my post or you’re deliberately ignoring it. The question you had was why can’t you learn Gemorah during the woman’s downtime acc. to those who hold it’s Mutter for them to learn Torah SheBaal Peh? And the answer is -that yes you’re allowed to have downtime in this world, but learning Gemorah wouldn’t help you do this. Why? Because learning Torah has to be done in fear and awe, etc. So if learning Gemorah is like reading a book to you -then this is Not the way you’re allowed, even if you’re a man, to learn Torah! So find something else to do to relax. You mentioned some activities and I mentioned others previously for those who feel that the activities you mentioned aren’t allowed.
Reb Zecharya ben Yitzchak was the mechaber of the Hameor Hagodol. What does that prove?
Kozov- I agree with that, but with all due respect, I think you lost cheshbon. I was addressing Sam2’s statement. Please reread what I said. I was making the point that since its a “heter” it has limitations. We never learn the heter to apply to someone that’s eino metzuveh.
Didnt you say mitoch shelo lishma bo lishma is not a pashute heter even for men?
yekke: Nothing at all. I just wanted to see if the Rebbitzen (in question) knew. Don’t forget – I asked who the mechaber of the BAAL Hamaor was, not the mechaber of the Maor. Purposefully. (I guess guys here still don’t know me)
“A woman is obligated to fulfill her household duties before so-called “learning” “
A man is also obligated to fulfill his household duties before so-called “learning”.
health- im seeing a double standard over here. Maybe you should re-read your posts
ZK: Oh, so I accidentally got what you were going at. 🙂 I thought I was the only annoying Hebrew grammarian here.
Curiosity: I don’t think you’re right but I want to look at the Gemara again first.
far east -“health- im seeing a double standard over here. Maybe you should re-read your posts”
I see no such thing. If you mean honestly, tell me which part you’re not understanding and I’ll explain it to you.
A man is also obligated to fulfill his household duties before so-called “learning”.
No. A man’s Limud Torah comes before his household duties.
Why would the Heter of Mitoch work for a woman? When you are Mechuyav to learn, Lishma, you should do whatever you could to get there, even if it means learning Shelo Lihma. But if you don’t have that Chiyuv then it’s not Nitan Lidachos.
But, going with the famous Tosafos Pshat that the Shelo Lishma of Noach Lo Shelo Nivra is not the same Shelo Lishma of Leolam Yilmod, there is no Issur in the first place.
Shlishi, did you really think you were telling me something I don’t already know?
(While a woman’s work is never done, she IS allowed to have some time to herself.)
Health: I don’t have the time nor desire to argue with your so called “logical” argument.
So why didn’t the wife of the Vilna Gaon learn Gemorah? Could it be she had better uses of her time in things that were Mitzvahs rather than devar rishus or maybe she did not need it because the generation she lived in didn’t judge women and make their self worth in terms of intellectual accompliments.
When I say your “so called logical argument”, I was referring to your argument about women doing chessed instead. As for your argument about woman learning out of fear and awe which cannot be done during “relax time”, I disagree with you, but don’t have time to explain at the moment.
Shlishi: Ask any Rav. I think they’ll tell you that if your wife needs help with the housework then you have to help her before learning.
“No. A man’s Limud Torah comes before his household duties.”
A mans household duties are specified in the kesuba he gives to his wife. Of course, she has every right to be mochel what is coming to her.
computer777 -“Health: I don’t have the time nor desire to argue with your so called “logical” argument.”
Wrong. You do have the time & you do have the desire, but you don’t have any logical answer.
“No. A man’s Limud Torah comes before his household duties.”
Wrong again. It’a a bafeireshe posuk: V’nishmartem M’od L’nafshoseichem”
computer777 -“When I say your “so called logical argument”, I was referring to your argument about women doing chessed instead.”
You can say as many times as you want that you get to pick what Mitzvos to do and it’s your choice, but we have Halacha and Halacha dictates priorities.
“As for your argument about woman learning out of fear and awe which cannot be done during “relax time”, I disagree with you, but don’t have time to explain at the moment.”
You could disagree as much as you want, but it’s not me who is defining how a person has to learn, it’s the Torah.
If you can’t learn this way, then you shouldn’t be learning. A male, even if he can’t learn this way, he still has to learn, even if the learning is B’dieved. A woman has no Chiyuv to learn -so if they can’t do it right – they shouldn’t do it at all!
cherrybim: A wife is not THAT dangerous!!!
Health, so you do believe that if a woman is physically washed out but mentally alert, she should or could learn?
As a side note, I don’t recall a Halacha dictating which voluntary Mitzva that is not before you, you must do, other than the preferances in Tzadaka. Do you have an example in mind?
With your argument, you are negating any woman. But there were famous Melumados that we know, and probably a lot more that we don’t know of.
HaLeiVi -“Health, so you do believe that if a woman is physically washed out but mentally alert, she should or could learn?”
I personally hold that it’s Ossur for women to learn Torah SheBaal Peh, like it says in the S’A. I was talking acc. to those that permit it. Usually when s/o is washed out physically it affects them mentally. But if it happens to be that this isn’t the case, then yes acc. to those Shittos she can learn – provided she is able to keep all the side Dinim of how you have to learn.
“As a side note, I don’t recall a Halacha dictating which voluntary Mitzva that is not before you, you must do, other than the preferances in Tzadaka. Do you have an example in mind?”
These Halachos are brought down, I think, in Hilchos Talmud Torah.
“With your argument, you are negating any woman. But there were famous Melumados that we know, and probably a lot more that we don’t know of.”
I’m not negating anyone more than the S’A. Even acc. to the S’A who says women aren’t allowed to learn, there were these women in Jewish history that did. This is called an exception to the rule!
Exactly. Just as Devora was a Judge does not negate the fact that the Halacha is a woman cannot be a judge.
And the only rabbis that allow teaching Torah shebalpeh/gemora to women, are modern rabbis per a very recent innovation.
Ohr Chodesh: The Drishah is recent? I guess the Sma hasn’t been on the side of Choshen Mishpat for over 500 years now. I don’t recall where, but I believe the Bach somewhere quotes a story about one of the Rishonim and a woman who learned. But I guess the Bach is a “very recent innovation” too.
And it’s two De’os in Tosfos if a woman can be a Dayan, I believe.
Ohr Chodesh, that’s not really all that similar. Tosafos explains that they were Mekabel her.
What I quoted above is actually a Tosfos Harosh. Tosfos does entertain the idea that a woman is allowed to judge. He also says that perhaps she was Shofetes Al Pi Hadibur, or that she didn’t judge on her own, rather she taught the Dayanim what to Pasken. Then he brings from a Yerushalmi that learns from a Passuk that she may not judge.
This is in Nida 50, the top Tosafos.
“cherrybim: A wife is not THAT dangerous!!!”
ZeesKite, you haven’t met my wife; I tzitter.
Wrong. You do have the time & you do have the desire, but you don’t have any logical answer.
but it’s not me who is defining how a person has to learn it’s the Torah.
I would just like to add, I am not advocating that women should learn gemorah. There are those that hold if woman herself desires to learn she can. There are those who possibly hold otherwise. That is not my argument. I simply don’t agree with Health’s arguments.
Actually, Torah must be learned with “Eima, Yirah, Reses & Zeyah” which translates as “awe, fear, trembling and sweat”.
This would automaticly exclude women.
Women don’t sweat, they glow
(Google it, it has been shown to be true scientificly :-).
Gavra, ya thats ideal but mitich shelo lishma bo lishma so no that source wouldnt automatically exclude women.
Kozov, we’re still debating how shelo lishma ba lishma could ever apply to women who aren’t metzuveh to learn Torah.
My statement wasn’t logic -it was a guess. And it seems I guessed right because you haven’t yet came up with a real rebuttal.
And how do you know what I pride myself in? Is this a logical statement or a guess?
Since when are you the expert on abuse and manipulation? Does your husband abuse you so therefore you know all about it? Or if you’re not married, do you think all men are abusive?
You see this post that you just wrote is manipulating. You put words in my mouth that I never said. I was going only acc. to the Shittos that hold women are allowed to learn. So obviously they hold a woman can learn with awe, fear, etc. The point of my post was – when can this actually occur? If during the woman’s day -they should be doing other Mitzvos like Chessed. Their learning would Not take precedence over Chessed like it does by a man, because even if they have a Mitzva to learn it’s not a Chiyuv, like it’s by a man.
So they can learn during their downtime when they’re tired.
So to this I responded -noone can learn properly acc. to the side Halachos of fear, awe, etc., when they are tired. I wasn’t differentiating between males & females. You made this into a male/female thing. So do you really learn for intellect or are you a feminist?
Gavra, the full expression is “horses sweat. men perspire, ladies glow”.
Curiosity, I didn’t say not.
And it seems I guessed right because you haven’t yet came up with a real rebuttal.
Really? I already told you the reason. Because I dont have have the time or desire. From your responses regarding women rather doing chessed than learning, I have determined that it’s fruitless to argue with you about it. You can argue endlessly about something. I don’t care to do that.
And how do you know what I pride myself in? Is this a logical statement or a guess?
It’s a logical conclusion since you often state how your posts are made with logic.
Since when are you the expert on abuse and manipulation?
I read a lot of books on all kinds of subjects. Abuse and manipulation are one of them.
do you think all men are abusive?
Talk about putting words in someones mouth! No, I don’t think so. Don’t know what I said that you should even ask that. And my husband is bh a wonderful person. Both men and women are capable of being manipulative. And one doesn’t have to be married to a manipulator to be affected by one.
You see this post that you just wrote is manipulating. You put words in my mouth that I never said.
I misunderstood your post. I thought you meant “women” cannot learn properly when tired. I think that if a women decides that she wants to learn, and makes it her business to, then she can learn properly even if physically tired. You can disagree. That is your right.
So do you really learn for intellect or are you a feminist?
I was responding to your post because I disagree with your reasoning. What I do is irrelevant.
computer777 -“Really? I already told you the reason. Because I dont have have the time or desire.”
But how do/did you have the time and desire to answer this past post? How about a little honesty?
“It’s a logical conclusion since you often state how your posts are made with logic.”
Seems to be we have a different definition of logical conclusions. Because s/o says their posts are with logic -that means they are priding theselves with that?!?! Ok, whatever you say.
“Since when are you the expert on abuse and manipulation?
I read a lot of books on all kinds of subjects. Abuse and manipulation are one of them.”
I didn’t know reading books made s/o an expert! So when you get sick you probably go to s/o who read a lot of medical books, not to a Medical Doctor.
“do you think all men are abusive?
Talk about putting words in someones mouth! No, I don’t think so. Don’t know what I said that you should even ask that. And my husband is bh a wonderful person. Both men and women are capable of being manipulative. And one doesn’t have to be married to a manipulator to be affected by one.”
I didn’t know asking s/o a question was putting words in their mouth! Do you even know what the words “putting words in someones mouth” means?
“I misunderstood your post. I thought you meant “women” cannot learn properly when tired. I think that if a women decides that she wants to learn, and makes it her business to, then she can learn properly even if physically tired. You can disagree. That is your right.”
Thanks for giving me permission to disagree, your Highness.
I disagree because women can Not learn properly any more than men can when they are tired. I don’t believe in the Amazon Woman!
“I was responding to your post because I disagree with your reasoning. What I do is irrelevant.”
You can’t disagree with my reasoning until you understand it. I hope one day you’ll be able to comprehend my post.
“I asked who the mechaber of the BAAL Hamaor was, not the mechaber of the Maor”
I was in a seforim store recently and I saw they had an edition which was called “Sefer Ba’al Hamaor”.
Keep it up girl.
“Sefer Ba’al Hama’or” sounds redundant and awkward, no?
Originally Rabeinu Zerachiah Halevi of Provence’s corpus was called “Sefer Hamaor”(and one could call him “Ba’al Sefer Hama’or”), but with time the author was called simply the “Ba’al Hamaor”. It was further delineated by the “Maor Hakatan” on Brachos and Moed, and “Hamaor Hagadol” on Nashim and N’zikin.
old man, do not bash me.
Dear Malbim,
Bash you? I didn’t even write to you.
PAA mentioned he saw a sefer in a store with a certain name, and I thought that was an awkward and redundant name for a sefer.
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