February 27, 2012 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #602244
At the Siyum HaShas, there will be a huge mechitza going through the entire stadium. The cost of the mechitza? $250,000. That’s right, a quarter of a million dollars.
I don’t believe it is halachicly necessary. After all, at the other siyumim they didn’t have one. So why do we need one now?
Every day I hear about more and more people who need help financially. Schools are fundraising because they can’t make ends meet. Rabbeim and teachers are not being paid because there is no money. People are losing their homes. So why spend this huge amount on something that isn’t needed?February 27, 2012 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #854420
I thought the story about that was satire. It couldn’t possibly cost a quarter million dollars to put up a mechitza.
And you are correct, there would probably be no need since you could just use different sections of the stands which are unconnected.
But, as far as your contention that it isn’t “halachicly necessary,” I don’t really understand why you think that only things which are “halachicly” necessary can be a good idea. There are plenty of gemaras which say that it is a good idea to do all sorts of things which are not “halachicly” necessary. In fact, I can recall a case where a beis din was mechayev someone to pay something that was not halachicly required.February 27, 2012 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #854421Yankie DoodleMember
It didn’t cost anywhere near 250K. That report was false, probably maliciously.February 27, 2012 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #854422
Tickets for the Siyum Cost $54 for Upper Deck and $100 for Lower Deck
I can imagine bringing a whole family to the event costing over $1000.February 27, 2012 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #854423
I think the story is correct. They say most of the cost is to repair the concrete after the Siyum from where the poles are being sunk into it.
My point wasn’t that it shouldn’t be done if it’s not necessary in and of itself. My point was that when so many people and organizations are begging for money, a quarter million dollars should be going where it’s needed, not for this.February 27, 2012 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #854424Loyal JewMember
Previous events didn’t have a mechitza because the weakness of the tzibur made it necessary to accept bedi’eved loopholes and exceptions. It is good news that we are coming back to ourselves. This quarter million dollars is definitely going where it’s needed.February 27, 2012 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #854425
A bigger issue is also , Met Life Stadium is BIG. It holds over 82,000 for Football, Probably more for the Siyum depending how they set the stage up.
The Parking lot is Huge.
If you are sitting in the upper deck, It has taken me over 20 mins to get from the entrance to the Upper Deck.
If you are going as a mixed family sitting seperate and rejoing after the Siyum you are asking for trouble. Unless you really know the stadium which most who are going dont. There will be lots of lost people especially children.
If you are going to go with family members you might want to consider going seperate as well and meet up at home and avoid parking, Take the Bus or TrainFebruary 27, 2012 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #854426
Are you talking about the waste of money spent on leasing the stadium, or just on the mechitza? I’ll tell you what is unnecesary, and that is spending millions on a one night get together. Does that bother you too? Maybe everyone should give the money they would spend on tickets to tzeddaka instead.
If you are going to have the siyyum in the stadium, then putting up the mechitza is a wise business move on the part of Agudah, because it broadens the specrum of ticket buyers. Without a mechitza, many RW communities would not participate and you would have empty seats.
Feif, I won’t call you a troll, but since you obviously xould have thought this out for yourself I will say you are looking to make trouble.February 27, 2012 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #854427
I’m sure there are ways to set up a mechitza without sinking poles into the concrete. the story was a joke.February 27, 2012 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #854428A Heimishe MomParticipant
As to the cost, I don’t know what it takes to put a sturdy, safe divider on an incline and steps in a space that size.
As to the need for it, although there many times when we do get carried away with mechitzos where not needed, remember, they will be davening maariv. There is no shaila about the need for a mechitza in a makom tefila of any size, venue or number of tefillos it will be used for.February 27, 2012 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #854429
Previous events didn’t have a mechitza because the weakness of the tzibur made it necessary to accept bedi’eved loopholes and exceptions. It is good news that we are coming back to ourselves. This quarter million dollars is definitely going where it’s needed.
If you check who is new on the Dais this time around, you will know who are real Gedolim (the new guys) and the fakers (the ones who were there last time, when the flesh was weak).February 27, 2012 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #854430ZeesKiteParticipant
And if they don’t put up your mechitza – will the poor get the money???February 27, 2012 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #854432Sam2Participant
Loyal Jew: There is a concept in Halacha not to introduce Chumros so as not to be Motzi La’az Al Doros Harishonim. Apparently your outlook is to throw the Doros Harishonim under the bus altogether.February 27, 2012 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #854433
Will the Siyum event be simultaneously broadcast over various media, such as, radio; internet; television; so that Yidden from across all spectrums will have an opportunity to witness and participate in this kiddush Hashem Torah happening?
Also, why the need to construct mechitzas at all when upper deck mechitzas are already in place?
I also understand that it is requested that tailgate parties be as inclusionary as possible; CRC Bet Yosef glatt and yoshon.February 27, 2012 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #854434
If you dont like the mechitza’s at the Siyum Dont go.
Nobody is forcing anyone to go.
It is their event and they have every right to run it any way they wishFebruary 27, 2012 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #854436
squeak: It makes good business sense? Look at the past siyumim. They were bursting at the seams. More people wanted to attend, but there wasn’t enough room. I doubt they’d have any trouble selling out the stadium even without a mechitza.
A Heimishe Mom: at the past siyumim, they davened also. Are you implying that the tefillos at those siyumim were done improperly? An easy solution is to put the women in a different level than the men. If the women were in the upper deck, it would be considered a mechitza, wouldn’t it?February 27, 2012 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #854437A Heimishe MomParticipant
Feif – you are right. If they put the women in the balcony that would be mechitza enough. My guess is that the organizers thought of that one as well. You are also right that they did without at past siyumim. It doesn’t make them wrong, but I definitely see where they would consider the mechitza more correct. (And I am pretty liberal when it comes to the need for a mechitza in general.)February 27, 2012 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #854438enlightenedjewMember
Feif, I agree wholeheartedly. I will be attending the siyum, but this $250K completely wasted on a mechitza really rankles. And Agudah is dealing with, some could say, mamon tzibur, so the “it’s their event they can do as they please” argument loses some of it’s luster.February 27, 2012 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #854439susheeMember
Who put out this $250,000 figure for the mechitza alone?
Until the veracity of that number can be ascertained this entire discussion is useless.February 27, 2012 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #854440
I missed the last one, but I clearly remember the two siyyumin before that, in MSG. The women were in the top box and could barely be seen. That is not comparable to the open air football stadium it is held in this time. So I can easily see why certain groups might avoid the event without a mechitza.
Who should decide if it makes good business sense? The group organizing the event. If they don’t think that they can fill the seats (100,000 this time – more than triple the capacity of MSG) without those groups, then it is prudent to make a mechitza to accommodate their patronage. If they do think they can sell out without them, but still decide that they prefer to have these groups attend over others who might not want a mechitza, then it is their choice. True, it may not be the best decision in profitability, but it is still a business decision just making handicapped seating available at sold out theatre shows.
In other words, mind your own business.February 27, 2012 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #854441Eli51Participant
There was a Mechtiza @ previous Siyums. I remember seeing drapes infront of a section where the woman were sitting @ the last Siyum @ Madison Square Garden.February 27, 2012 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #854442walter sobchskMember
they have many sponsorsFebruary 27, 2012 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #854443ToiParticipant
If you dont wanna go, dont.February 27, 2012 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #854444
An easy solution is to put the women in a different level than the men. If the women were in the upper deck, it would be considered a mechitza, wouldn’t it?
which is exactly the proof that this story is probably false or overblown, and that they are not making stupid decisions.February 28, 2012 12:41 am at 12:41 am #854445
Popa, I heard that this is reliable info. The upper deck is separate but visible, so some people would not be satisfied.
The high cost is because the stadium will not allow a flimsy partition to be used out of safety concerns. Therefore a structurally sound barrier is needed, and removal after the siyyum. This would cost money anywhere, but did I mention that the work has to be done by NJ union workers?February 28, 2012 1:03 am at 1:03 am #854446
By the way, you have to deal with unions at these events; and when you are dealing with these unions, any type of work that needs to be done is outrageously expensive.February 28, 2012 3:44 am at 3:44 am #854447mddMember
According to Rav Moshe, any event open to the general public (as opposed to “by invitation only”) needs a mechitza.February 28, 2012 4:36 am at 4:36 am #854448☕️coffee addictParticipant
do you go to baseball games or anything else where you waste money?
if so, then you shouldn’t do that and instead give the money to an aniFebruary 28, 2012 8:10 am at 8:10 am #854449Think firstMember
Mdd — thanks for the post I actually just saw that tshuva this shabbos.February 28, 2012 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #854450rabbiofberlinParticipant
mdd- you better give us the place of this teshuvo, because it doesn’t make sense. Mecitzos are for davening and- maybe- for festive meals.February 28, 2012 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #854451
People are complaining about the unions
At $50 a ticket and 80,000 attendees (maybe 100,000 since I dont know exact seating), but its 80,000 for a football game
thats 40 Million dollars, I dont know who gets the money for parking, but it costs $15 to park at the Meadowlands.
Ill assume they will be selling food, there is probsably a cut for that as well.
I am sure the Agudah will clear easily 20 Million dollars for this, thats alot more than $250,000February 28, 2012 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #854452Loyal JewMember
To Sam2, I spoke of the weakness of the tzibur, not the gedolim r”l! Today the tzibur is willing to do away with bedie’eveds and exceptions that poskim used to accept because the tzibur was on that madreiga. This is why so many things that used to be accepted can be straightened out now: shiras nashim, mixed buses, MO kulos, chalav akum, etc.February 28, 2012 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #854453mamashtakahMember
If you are going to go with family members you might want to consider going seperate as well and meet up at home and avoid parking, Take the Bus or Train
I would say to get every family member a cell phone with texting capabilities, so that they can keep tabs on each other throughout the siyum.February 28, 2012 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #854454mddMember
Loyal Jew, mixed buses are mutar. Rav Moshe held that cholov stam is muttar.
Rabbiofberlin, look in Yad Moshe to find where it is. Btw, by meals, if the women are not dancing, it is only a ma’alah — not a chiyuv. An important ma’alah, though, considering how mekushtos so many women are.February 28, 2012 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #854455rcParticipant
i see no reason why the women need to go. (and yes i am a woman) i understand being a part of kavod hatorah, but i see no toeles in women going. they can have a live hookup at some offsite facitlity. mechitza or not (which i think it ludicrous) considering the women will be in a sep section and upper balcony i assume, the pushing and shoving going in and out cannot be tzniyus.February 28, 2012 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #854456snjnMember
I have attended the last three siyums and there most certainly was a mechitza that was lowered for mincha and maariva and raised for the rest. This was last time, I don’t remember the two times before it. As a matter of fact, the NY Times commented on how the women were “blocked out” by a rising and lowering black curtain. This is certainly not new.February 28, 2012 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #854457
Loyal Jew: You look at it and say the generations are getting stronger. We have a rule that generations get weaker. I think people now just take on unnecessary chumros. It’s not because they’re stronger, it’s because everyone it trying to be more frum than everyone else.February 28, 2012 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #854458
i see no reason why the women need to go.
I see no reason why the men need to go. 🙂February 28, 2012 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #854459
The Bais Hamikdash did not have a mechitza for women; but I guess our generation is holier.February 28, 2012 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #854460brooklynguy2Participant
There was a mechitza in the NJ location last time. Having a huge crowd was inspiring and I joined a daf yomi over 7 years ago and look forward to this year’s siyum. The way the tickets are set up, there are men and women sections on each concourse so when davening mariv a mechitza will be needed. I’m sure the Agudah is working on it but I am concerned about security given the huge size of the crowd.February 28, 2012 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #854461ZeesKiteParticipant
Feif: -” We have a rule that generations get weaker..”
No. Not necessarily. Definitely not a just cause to a movement to just do that (which, in fact, some break-away movements are doing). We’re doing ????????, trying to maintain the holiness and essense of Am Yisroel. So some look at it as “unnecessary chumros” etc., “rying to be more frum than everyone else”.. Like the second son “why do you need all that sweat, toil, work”. We look at it as an opportunity to come closer to HaShem.
Secondly, there’s a concept as ????? ???, where a generation has the freedom, convenience, atmosphere to be more medakdek in motzvohs than a previous generation.
Thirdly, to whom are you comparing our generation? To the dark early years of American Jewery? Would you too be mechalel Shabbos, just because the majority of Jews did it then??
One more, if I may. Think of us (Torah-true Jews) as Modern Orthodox. We have modernized our standards. Yesteryear things were OK, borderline, today we have become modern. Do you have an out-house? Donkey, horse for travel? Kerosene lighting. You’ve modernized. Right? I didn’t hear you complain “Another modern gadget?!?”, “Everyone’s trying to out-modern the other!!”
We too have modernized our mitzvos performance!!February 28, 2012 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #854462bptParticipant
Is the mechitza necessary? Perhaps not.
But if it makes the women who attend more comfortable, its something that should be provided. They make plenty of sacrafices for the advancement of torah, and $250k is a small price to pay to make them feel appreciated.
And, Zahavasdad – You made a type-o. At $50, its a $4 million venue. Agudah is not doing this for the $$$ .February 28, 2012 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #854463fedup11210Member
The $250,000 figure was stated at a meeting that the Agudah held in Brooklyn a few weeks ago. This is how much the NJ Sports authority will charge for the assembly, disassembly, and any charges to fix the holes that will have to be made to anchor the mechitza to the stadium. The mechitza will have to be built to withstand the potential wind gusts (yes even though it is the summer).February 28, 2012 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #854464
“But if it makes the women who attend more comfortable, its something that should be provided.”
You know, like being shoved to the back of the bus.February 28, 2012 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #854465
As a side point, anyone know who will be speaking? Sitting at the Dais? Etc.?February 28, 2012 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #854466
I dont know about all the tickets, but there are alot of $100 tickets being sold and I am sure there are even higher priced ticketsFebruary 28, 2012 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #854467
“At $50 a ticket and 80,000 attendees (maybe 100,000 since I dont know exact seating), but its 80,000 for a football game”
Let’s try to put a bottom line on the event, which includes the attendees’ costs as well as the Agudah costs.
We need to include the cost of renting the stadium, advertising, printing and shipping of materials, transportation and accommodations for special guests and employees, special staff and overtime, security, special communications equipment, sound-system, recording, photography, porters, public relations, and other stuff.
In addition to the ticket cost ($4-$5 million), include: gas, highway and bridge tolls, purchases at the event.February 28, 2012 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #854468Sam2Participant
Loyal Jew: So not to be Motzi La’az on Doros Harishonim only applies to the Gedolim? No wonder you have no problem saying that everyone who came before us wasn’t frum.February 28, 2012 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #854469
In addition to the ticket cost ($4-$5 million), include: gas, highway and bridge tolls, purchases at the event.
The organizers dont make money from gas and tolls
They might make money from parking and concessions. I dont know how it works when you rent the stadium if you get a cut of these.
BTW please remember this is an OUTDOOR stadium and if it RAINS, be preparedFebruary 28, 2012 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #854470bptParticipant
” $100 tickets….there are even higher priced tickets “
True. But there are lots of $18 tickets (like the one I bought) and many more that will be sold at a steep discount (like the ones for camps, schools, ect)
$4 mil is reasonable estimate. 5 on the outside.
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