Mechitza at the Siyum HaShas

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  • #602244

    Feif Un
    Participant

    At the Siyum HaShas, there will be a huge mechitza going through the entire stadium. The cost of the mechitza? $250,000. That’s right, a quarter of a million dollars.

    I don’t believe it is halachicly necessary. After all, at the other siyumim they didn’t have one. So why do we need one now?

    Every day I hear about more and more people who need help financially. Schools are fundraising because they can’t make ends meet. Rabbeim and teachers are not being paid because there is no money. People are losing their homes. So why spend this huge amount on something that isn’t needed?

    #854420

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I thought the story about that was satire. It couldn’t possibly cost a quarter million dollars to put up a mechitza.

    And you are correct, there would probably be no need since you could just use different sections of the stands which are unconnected.

    But, as far as your contention that it isn’t “halachicly necessary,” I don’t really understand why you think that only things which are “halachicly” necessary can be a good idea. There are plenty of gemaras which say that it is a good idea to do all sorts of things which are not “halachicly” necessary. In fact, I can recall a case where a beis din was mechayev someone to pay something that was not halachicly required.

    #854421

    It didn’t cost anywhere near 250K. That report was false, probably maliciously.

    #854422

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Tickets for the Siyum Cost $54 for Upper Deck and $100 for Lower Deck

    I can imagine bringing a whole family to the event costing over $1000.

    #854423

    Feif Un
    Participant

    I think the story is correct. They say most of the cost is to repair the concrete after the Siyum from where the poles are being sunk into it.

    My point wasn’t that it shouldn’t be done if it’s not necessary in and of itself. My point was that when so many people and organizations are begging for money, a quarter million dollars should be going where it’s needed, not for this.

    #854424

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Previous events didn’t have a mechitza because the weakness of the tzibur made it necessary to accept bedi’eved loopholes and exceptions. It is good news that we are coming back to ourselves. This quarter million dollars is definitely going where it’s needed.

    #854425

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    A bigger issue is also , Met Life Stadium is BIG. It holds over 82,000 for Football, Probably more for the Siyum depending how they set the stage up.

    The Parking lot is Huge.

    If you are sitting in the upper deck, It has taken me over 20 mins to get from the entrance to the Upper Deck.

    If you are going as a mixed family sitting seperate and rejoing after the Siyum you are asking for trouble. Unless you really know the stadium which most who are going dont. There will be lots of lost people especially children.

    If you are going to go with family members you might want to consider going seperate as well and meet up at home and avoid parking, Take the Bus or Train

    #854426

    squeak
    Participant

    Are you talking about the waste of money spent on leasing the stadium, or just on the mechitza? I’ll tell you what is unnecesary, and that is spending millions on a one night get together. Does that bother you too? Maybe everyone should give the money they would spend on tickets to tzeddaka instead.

    If you are going to have the siyyum in the stadium, then putting up the mechitza is a wise business move on the part of Agudah, because it broadens the specrum of ticket buyers. Without a mechitza, many RW communities would not participate and you would have empty seats.

    Feif, I won’t call you a troll, but since you obviously xould have thought this out for yourself I will say you are looking to make trouble.

    #854427

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’m sure there are ways to set up a mechitza without sinking poles into the concrete. the story was a joke.

    #854428

    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    As to the cost, I don’t know what it takes to put a sturdy, safe divider on an incline and steps in a space that size.

    As to the need for it, although there many times when we do get carried away with mechitzos where not needed, remember, they will be davening maariv. There is no shaila about the need for a mechitza in a makom tefila of any size, venue or number of tefillos it will be used for.

    #854429

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Previous events didn’t have a mechitza because the weakness of the tzibur made it necessary to accept bedi’eved loopholes and exceptions. It is good news that we are coming back to ourselves. This quarter million dollars is definitely going where it’s needed.

    If you check who is new on the Dais this time around, you will know who are real Gedolim (the new guys) and the fakers (the ones who were there last time, when the flesh was weak).

    #854430

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    And if they don’t put up your mechitza – will the poor get the money???

    #854432

    Sam2
    Participant

    Loyal Jew: There is a concept in Halacha not to introduce Chumros so as not to be Motzi La’az Al Doros Harishonim. Apparently your outlook is to throw the Doros Harishonim under the bus altogether.

    #854433

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Will the Siyum event be simultaneously broadcast over various media, such as, radio; internet; television; so that Yidden from across all spectrums will have an opportunity to witness and participate in this kiddush Hashem Torah happening?

    Also, why the need to construct mechitzas at all when upper deck mechitzas are already in place?

    I also understand that it is requested that tailgate parties be as inclusionary as possible; CRC Bet Yosef glatt and yoshon.

    #854434

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If you dont like the mechitza’s at the Siyum Dont go.

    Nobody is forcing anyone to go.

    It is their event and they have every right to run it any way they wish

    #854436

    Feif Un
    Participant

    squeak: It makes good business sense? Look at the past siyumim. They were bursting at the seams. More people wanted to attend, but there wasn’t enough room. I doubt they’d have any trouble selling out the stadium even without a mechitza.

    A Heimishe Mom: at the past siyumim, they davened also. Are you implying that the tefillos at those siyumim were done improperly? An easy solution is to put the women in a different level than the men. If the women were in the upper deck, it would be considered a mechitza, wouldn’t it?

    #854437

    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    Feif – you are right. If they put the women in the balcony that would be mechitza enough. My guess is that the organizers thought of that one as well. You are also right that they did without at past siyumim. It doesn’t make them wrong, but I definitely see where they would consider the mechitza more correct. (And I am pretty liberal when it comes to the need for a mechitza in general.)

    #854438

    Feif, I agree wholeheartedly. I will be attending the siyum, but this $250K completely wasted on a mechitza really rankles. And Agudah is dealing with, some could say, mamon tzibur, so the “it’s their event they can do as they please” argument loses some of it’s luster.

    #854439

    sushee
    Member

    Who put out this $250,000 figure for the mechitza alone?

    Until the veracity of that number can be ascertained this entire discussion is useless.

    #854440

    squeak
    Participant

    I missed the last one, but I clearly remember the two siyyumin before that, in MSG. The women were in the top box and could barely be seen. That is not comparable to the open air football stadium it is held in this time. So I can easily see why certain groups might avoid the event without a mechitza.

    Who should decide if it makes good business sense? The group organizing the event. If they don’t think that they can fill the seats (100,000 this time – more than triple the capacity of MSG) without those groups, then it is prudent to make a mechitza to accommodate their patronage. If they do think they can sell out without them, but still decide that they prefer to have these groups attend over others who might not want a mechitza, then it is their choice. True, it may not be the best decision in profitability, but it is still a business decision just making handicapped seating available at sold out theatre shows.

    In other words, mind your own business.

    #854441

    Eli51
    Participant

    There was a Mechtiza @ previous Siyums. I remember seeing drapes infront of a section where the woman were sitting @ the last Siyum @ Madison Square Garden.

    #854442

    they have many sponsors

    #854443

    Toi
    Participant

    If you dont wanna go, dont.

    #854444

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    An easy solution is to put the women in a different level than the men. If the women were in the upper deck, it would be considered a mechitza, wouldn’t it?

    which is exactly the proof that this story is probably false or overblown, and that they are not making stupid decisions.

    #854445

    squeak
    Participant

    Popa, I heard that this is reliable info. The upper deck is separate but visible, so some people would not be satisfied.

    The high cost is because the stadium will not allow a flimsy partition to be used out of safety concerns. Therefore a structurally sound barrier is needed, and removal after the siyyum. This would cost money anywhere, but did I mention that the work has to be done by NJ union workers?

    #854446

    cherrybim
    Participant

    By the way, you have to deal with unions at these events; and when you are dealing with these unions, any type of work that needs to be done is outrageously expensive.

    #854447

    mdd
    Member

    According to Rav Moshe, any event open to the general public (as opposed to “by invitation only”) needs a mechitza.

    #854448

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Feif Un,

    do you go to baseball games or anything else where you waste money?

    if so, then you shouldn’t do that and instead give the money to an ani

    #854449

    Think first
    Member

    Mdd — thanks for the post I actually just saw that tshuva this shabbos.

    #854450

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    mdd- you better give us the place of this teshuvo, because it doesn’t make sense. Mecitzos are for davening and- maybe- for festive meals.

    #854451

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    People are complaining about the unions

    At $50 a ticket and 80,000 attendees (maybe 100,000 since I dont know exact seating), but its 80,000 for a football game

    thats 40 Million dollars, I dont know who gets the money for parking, but it costs $15 to park at the Meadowlands.

    Ill assume they will be selling food, there is probsably a cut for that as well.

    I am sure the Agudah will clear easily 20 Million dollars for this, thats alot more than $250,000

    #854452

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    To Sam2, I spoke of the weakness of the tzibur, not the gedolim r”l! Today the tzibur is willing to do away with bedie’eveds and exceptions that poskim used to accept because the tzibur was on that madreiga. This is why so many things that used to be accepted can be straightened out now: shiras nashim, mixed buses, MO kulos, chalav akum, etc.

    #854453

    mamashtakah
    Member

    If you are going to go with family members you might want to consider going seperate as well and meet up at home and avoid parking, Take the Bus or Train

    I would say to get every family member a cell phone with texting capabilities, so that they can keep tabs on each other throughout the siyum.

    #854454

    mdd
    Member

    Loyal Jew, mixed buses are mutar. Rav Moshe held that cholov stam is muttar.

    Rabbiofberlin, look in Yad Moshe to find where it is. Btw, by meals, if the women are not dancing, it is only a ma’alah — not a chiyuv. An important ma’alah, though, considering how mekushtos so many women are.

    #854455

    rc
    Participant

    i see no reason why the women need to go. (and yes i am a woman) i understand being a part of kavod hatorah, but i see no toeles in women going. they can have a live hookup at some offsite facitlity. mechitza or not (which i think it ludicrous) considering the women will be in a sep section and upper balcony i assume, the pushing and shoving going in and out cannot be tzniyus.

    #854456

    snjn
    Member

    I have attended the last three siyums and there most certainly was a mechitza that was lowered for mincha and maariva and raised for the rest. This was last time, I don’t remember the two times before it. As a matter of fact, the NY Times commented on how the women were “blocked out” by a rising and lowering black curtain. This is certainly not new.

    #854457

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Loyal Jew: You look at it and say the generations are getting stronger. We have a rule that generations get weaker. I think people now just take on unnecessary chumros. It’s not because they’re stronger, it’s because everyone it trying to be more frum than everyone else.

    #854458

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    i see no reason why the women need to go.

    I see no reason why the men need to go. 🙂

    #854459

    cherrybim
    Participant

    The Bais Hamikdash did not have a mechitza for women; but I guess our generation is holier.

    #854460

    brooklynguy2
    Participant

    There was a mechitza in the NJ location last time. Having a huge crowd was inspiring and I joined a daf yomi over 7 years ago and look forward to this year’s siyum. The way the tickets are set up, there are men and women sections on each concourse so when davening mariv a mechitza will be needed. I’m sure the Agudah is working on it but I am concerned about security given the huge size of the crowd.

    #854461

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Feif: -” We have a rule that generations get weaker..”

    No. Not necessarily. Definitely not a just cause to a movement to just do that (which, in fact, some break-away movements are doing). We’re doing ????????, trying to maintain the holiness and essense of Am Yisroel. So some look at it as “unnecessary chumros” etc., “rying to be more frum than everyone else”.. Like the second son “why do you need all that sweat, toil, work”. We look at it as an opportunity to come closer to HaShem.

    Secondly, there’s a concept as ????? ???, where a generation has the freedom, convenience, atmosphere to be more medakdek in motzvohs than a previous generation.

    Thirdly, to whom are you comparing our generation? To the dark early years of American Jewery? Would you too be mechalel Shabbos, just because the majority of Jews did it then??

    One more, if I may. Think of us (Torah-true Jews) as Modern Orthodox. We have modernized our standards. Yesteryear things were OK, borderline, today we have become modern. Do you have an out-house? Donkey, horse for travel? Kerosene lighting. You’ve modernized. Right? I didn’t hear you complain “Another modern gadget?!?”, “Everyone’s trying to out-modern the other!!”

    We too have modernized our mitzvos performance!!

    #854462

    bpt
    Participant

    Is the mechitza necessary? Perhaps not.

    But if it makes the women who attend more comfortable, its something that should be provided. They make plenty of sacrafices for the advancement of torah, and $250k is a small price to pay to make them feel appreciated.

    And, Zahavasdad – You made a type-o. At $50, its a $4 million venue. Agudah is not doing this for the $$$ .

    #854463

    fedup11210
    Member

    The $250,000 figure was stated at a meeting that the Agudah held in Brooklyn a few weeks ago. This is how much the NJ Sports authority will charge for the assembly, disassembly, and any charges to fix the holes that will have to be made to anchor the mechitza to the stadium. The mechitza will have to be built to withstand the potential wind gusts (yes even though it is the summer).

    #854464

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “But if it makes the women who attend more comfortable, its something that should be provided.”

    You know, like being shoved to the back of the bus.

    #854465

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    As a side point, anyone know who will be speaking? Sitting at the Dais? Etc.?

    #854466

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    BPT

    I dont know about all the tickets, but there are alot of $100 tickets being sold and I am sure there are even higher priced tickets

    #854467

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “At $50 a ticket and 80,000 attendees (maybe 100,000 since I dont know exact seating), but its 80,000 for a football game”

    Let’s try to put a bottom line on the event, which includes the attendees’ costs as well as the Agudah costs.

    We need to include the cost of renting the stadium, advertising, printing and shipping of materials, transportation and accommodations for special guests and employees, special staff and overtime, security, special communications equipment, sound-system, recording, photography, porters, public relations, and other stuff.

    In addition to the ticket cost ($4-$5 million), include: gas, highway and bridge tolls, purchases at the event.

    #854468

    Sam2
    Participant

    Loyal Jew: So not to be Motzi La’az on Doros Harishonim only applies to the Gedolim? No wonder you have no problem saying that everyone who came before us wasn’t frum.

    #854469

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In addition to the ticket cost ($4-$5 million), include: gas, highway and bridge tolls, purchases at the event.

    The organizers dont make money from gas and tolls

    They might make money from parking and concessions. I dont know how it works when you rent the stadium if you get a cut of these.

    BTW please remember this is an OUTDOOR stadium and if it RAINS, be prepared

    #854470

    bpt
    Participant

    ” $100 tickets….there are even higher priced tickets “

    True. But there are lots of $18 tickets (like the one I bought) and many more that will be sold at a steep discount (like the ones for camps, schools, ect)

    $4 mil is reasonable estimate. 5 on the outside.

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