Melacha Sh’einah Tzricha L’gufa
- This topic has 215 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 10 months ago by rabbiofberlin.
July 5, 2009 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #589984
Was just learning some Hilchos Yontof in Rambam. He paskens that you are not allowed to turn off the flame even if it will smoke up your house (4,6) because since it is not necessary for cooking, it is just like any other melacha and is osur med’oraisa (4,2).
My question is that I believe I have learned elsewhere that most kibuy is a melacha sheina tzricha lgufa, since the only time you use kibuy to create something is when you are trying to make charcoal or a better wick. When you do it to get rid of the flame or smoke you are not doing anything creative. Doesn’t the mishna say hamechabeh es haner mipnei goyim mipnei listim mipnei ruach raah oh bishvil hacholeh sheyishen patur.
My understanding of melacha sh’eina trzricha lgufa is that you do a melacha which is the same act, but for a different purpose than in the mishkan. Is the Rambam paskening like Rebbe Yehudah that all melacha ShETLG is asur?
BTW, melacha ShETLG is different than davar sheein miskaven which is when you do act A, but someteimes B happens simultaneously, and you have no kavanah for B. Psik Reisha is when B always happens as a result of A (and asur either because it is now my melacha or else my machshava). Psik Reisha dlo nicha lei is when you do not like when B happens (and some hold even if you do not care about B, as long as it gives you no benefit, even if you don’t dislike it, it is still patur).
So my questions are A) why do you get malkos, and B) why doesn’t Rambam mention Melacha ShETLG here, and C) what about mishna in Shabbos above (which I am too lazy to look up now)?July 6, 2009 2:56 am at 2:56 am #650698
If there is a REAL chance that a flame will smoke up your house, then you are talking about sakanas nefashos, because smoke can asphyxiate people. In THAT case, and I was taught even in a SAFEIK sakanas nefashos, you can shut it even on Shabbos, much less Yom Tov. I have an oven that can be turned on and off on Yom tov, because the pilot runs continuously and never goes out, never is ignited electrically, or the like. It is a very old stove. I won’t get rid of it specifically because of that continuously-on pilot. I am actually the envy of many of my friends who own newer stoves.July 6, 2009 3:02 am at 3:02 am #650699
Just did more research and found that the Rambam does indeed pasken like R. Yehuda that Melacha ShETLG is chayav. He says this explicitly in hilchos shabbos (1,7) and (12,2). So in hilchos yontof he is consistent. He needs to emphasize it in hilchos yontof because I might have thought that since mavir (lighing a fire) is mutar ltzorech ochel nefesh (and by extension in other cases, as well, because of mitoch), maybe I can apply this to mechabeh as well. Maybe they are a pair, since one is the opposite of the other. So he needs to tell us in hilchos yontof that mechabeh is not permitted on yontof, either, just like on shabbos, and the heter of mavir on yontof does not apply to mechabeh.
(Note that I believe halacha lmayesh we do lower the flame when it will burn the food. I am not sure if this fits with the Rambam.)
One other point which is discussed by the nosei keilim on the Rambam which I am too tired to look into is why the Rambam paskens that meifis mursa and tzad nachash are patur which are also examples of melachos ShETLG, since he paskens that melacha ShETLG is chayav.July 6, 2009 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #650700mepalMember
P”Y, what does ‘yontof’ mean? Isn’t it Yom Tov? 😉July 6, 2009 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #650701
Hi Oomis. Those stoves are very good for yontof, but I believe they have been discontinued for safety reasons, since the gas runs all the time, and if pilot goes out, fumes can accumulate.
Also, once I tried to light an oven pilot that was extinguished, and the gas made a huge (but short-lasting) flame that caught my hair on fire. Be careful.July 6, 2009 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #650702
oomis: an oven with a pilot light may be turned ON on Yom Tov, but may not be turned OFF. It may only be turned lower if there is food on the flame that may be ruined, but even then not completely off.July 7, 2009 1:21 am at 1:21 am #650703
oomis: an oven with a pilot light may be turned ON on Yom Tov, but may not be turned OFF. It may only be turned lower if there is food on the flame that may be ruined, but even then not completely “
Perhaps you have been taught that way, or did not understand my post, but according to my rov from way back when, ZT”L, respectfully that is not what I was taught. You are correct that TODAY’S ovens absolutely may not be turned on and off, but because the older ovens have a continuous pilot light on them, meaning that the pilot is never affected by the dial turning on or off, it remains burning 24/7, it is NOT m’avreir, but only ma’avir (not creating a new spark, but merely moving an existing flame from one location to another without extinguishing the source), and therefore it MAY be turned on and off on Yom tov. It is only the newer stoves of say the last 20-25 years that actually re-ignite the pilot and extinguish it l’gamrei when the dial is turned off, that are assur to use except in the manner that you describe and with a Sabbath mode. I have checked this out thoroughly with several different Rabbonim, over the years because of all the halachos related to the Shabbos mode type ovens (which I do NOT have – my stove is a 45 year old relic – but was at one time considering buying a new one). I was curious as to why the newer ovens and stove tops were not permissible (I knew nothing about the way they worked), and all the Daas Torah that I consulted said the same thing to me, as I stated, that my particular stove and oven absolutely are permitted to be turned on and off on Yom Tov. If the pilot light accidentally blows out however, I have a halachic problem and can no longer use the burner.July 7, 2009 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #650704
Mepal, Your pronunciation is the more modern way which is asur lchol hadayos. You may even be an apikorus if you pronounce it that way. Don’t ever say that in public or your kids will never get shidduchim.
Oomis, if your pilot goes out, you can probably relight with a yahrtzeit candle.July 7, 2009 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #650705
The mainstream psak for Yontif/Yontof/Yom Tov is that we light a second, smaller, flame rather than lower an existing one (since moving the food to a smaller flame prevents it from burning, there is no reason to lower the existing flame).
The minority psak is that lowering a flame is equal in Halacha to lighting a second one and neither one is preferrable over the other.
However, this is only when it is necessary for the food that is cooking. I have never heard that one may adjust a flame at will. And pilot light or no, turning off a flame completely is never for the benefit of the food. I myself had a pilot lit stove for years, and I’m sure many others here did too – it is only unusual nowadays, but was the norm when dinos walked.
Oomis, I strongly suspect that you may have misinterpreted what you heard. Are you positive that you received a psak allowing you to adjust a flame up and down at will?July 7, 2009 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #650706mepalMember
PY, oh boy. Thanks for the warning!July 7, 2009 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #650707charlie brownMember
I myself had a pilot lit stove for years, and I’m sure many others here did too – it is only unusual nowadays, but was the norm when dinos walked.
I clearly remember that pilot stoves were in use waaaay before the first dinos were discovered.
Oh, and hi everyone!July 7, 2009 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #650708YW Moderator-72Participant
Charlie… welcome back! OK everyone… Call off the manhuntJuly 7, 2009 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #650709
Oomis, I strongly suspect that you may have misinterpreted what you heard. Are you positive that you received a psak allowing you to adjust a flame up and down at will?
ABSOLUTELY sure. My grandfathers on both sides of the family were rabbonim and both my bubbies and all my aunts, as well as my mom ALL turned the oven on and off on yom tov. So did my rebbetzin (whose husband Z”TL was a close personal chaver of R’ Moshe Z”TL, and whom R’ Moshe would often call for his own personal shailos). If you are younger than your fifties, then you might not remember the type of oven I am talking about. The halacha is very specific. You may not create a new spark of fire, but if the fire is already there and not going out, you may move it from one place to another. hence you may turn the burner up or down, because the flame is just going back to its first location (the pilot, which btw is STILL burning even when the burner is turned on), or moving from that location to the burner holes. I am flabbergasted that anyone could be unfamiliar with this, but the truth is today’s ovens cannot likewise be used. I will tell you something more – way more radical, though I personally do NOT do this, and most frum Jews today would not do this. There was a time around 50-60 years ago or so, that people turned their electricity on and off on yom tov, as well. The sevara at the time was that like the fire in the pilot light, the electricity (also called aish) is contantly running through the switches and cords. Proof of that is that if you would stick a metal object in an outlet, or cut open a wire that is plugged into a live outlet and touch the wire, you would be electrocuted, chalilah. Those that held it was permissible, held that for tzorech yom tov it was like turning the burners on and off with a continuous pilot. Most of us do not hold by that today, but there are many frum people who hold that a light may be turned on, but not off. We do not so either of those things, we use timers for our electric needs for lamps and fans. Incidentally, the halacha is that if you know a Yid who DOES turn lights on and off on yom tov, you may NOT castigate him for doing so, based on the previously held belief (which btw, I saw this entire discussion in the JEwish Press several years ago). Check with your LOR.
I have asked this particular question throughout my life, as different inyanim came up, and without exception every teacher, every rov, has always said that it is permitted to turn a burner on and off on the specific type of stove that we have. It is absolutely not permitted to do so if I would have to light the pilot first. Very straightforward, not subject to misinterpretation.July 7, 2009 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #650710
Oomis & squeak:
Adjusting Electricity for Tzorach Ochel is (I believe) a shita of Rav Dovid Cohen Shelita, but (to the best of my understanding) is a Daas Yochid.
(Disclaimer: If memory serves) Rav Moshe indicates it is Mutar to turn a flame off (even though he does not say so outright) completely, even without a pilot. If there is a pilot, there is no reason why you can’t adjust the flame off & leave the food on, if it is a Tsorech of the Ochel, since that is removing fuel for cooking purposes, as opposed to being Mechabe (ask your own LOR). I am not aware of any heter other than Rav Moshe above to cut off the gas completely from its seperate source within the burner not for Tsorech Ochel, as opposed to the source feeding the pilot. (Oomis, you probaly hold like that “unpublished opinion” of Rav Moshe, that there is no problem in general with cutting off the gas.) If you have a source, I would love to see it.July 7, 2009 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #650711
1. The understanding of electricity in Halacha has changed over time, as you noted. That is not radical, merely factual. Nowadays we accept that it is assur to switch on/off on Shabbos and Yom Tov.
2. I am pretty sure that I know exactly what the oven is (and I had one myself, as I mentioned) and that the halacha is as I said, but I am willing to accept that you have such a psak for yourself. I have one question for you though, and that is why do you think that your oven is any different than a modern oven when it comes to lowering the flame? Here I’m not talking about turning it off, as there is a clear difference in that (the modern oven will have no flame but the old one will be reduced to a pilot) – I am talking about simply lowering the flame such that a flame is still there. I would think that there is no difference. Yet, most poskim do not permit doing this even to benefit the food. Why then do you think you can lower your flame at will?July 7, 2009 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #650712
Oomis, your part about electricity constantly running in wires is interesting. I am not sure how the following would affect the halacha, but when the switch is off, there is a voltage, but no current. When you turn the switch on, or chas vshalom stick any conductor or even part of the body (since it conducts to some degree) into an outlet, you are creating a current. It is like water in a faucet which when the faucet is off, there is pressure behind it but no flow. When you open the faucet, the pressure forces the water out, and a stream flows. If electricity depends on voltage, then it could be as you say. However, if it depends on creating a current, then would be different.July 7, 2009 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #650713charlie brownMember
thanks 72, but please stay on topic, will ya? 🙂July 7, 2009 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #650714nishtgeshtoigenMember
There is a fifference between Ma’vir and Kiboi as to Mitoch. Therefore lowering was considered permitted only if it was directly a Oichel Nefesh issue. and thus many did not allow to lower the flame but rather to start a new lower flame on pilot run stove. I was told though that R’ Moshe zt’l allowed lowering these flames.July 7, 2009 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #650715
If you have a source, I would love to see it.
Sorry, my source was my Zaydies, my Bubbies, and my entire Mishpacha, my neighborhood, and my Rov. I don’t knwo what THEIR source was, because I never ask for a source from a poseik.
My stove and oven ARE different from those made and sold in NY today. You cannot find my stove in this state due to the energy-saving features and rules that were passed for all new appliances. But in yesteryear, they were made differently, and the fire was never at any time cut off, only moved around. And I have since this thread asked about it again, and was told there is absolutely no issur in what I do. Of course, you cannot turn the oven on and off for any reason OTHER than ochel nefesh, i.e. to warm up a room in colder weather such as late fall.
Oomis, your part about electricity constantly running in wires is interesting. I am not sure how the following would affect the halacha, but when the switch is off, there is a voltage, but no current. When you turn the switch on, or chas vshalom stick any conductor or even part of the body (since it conducts to some degree) into an outlet, you are creating a current. It is like water in a faucet which when the faucet is off, there is pressure behind it but no flow. When you open the faucet, the pressure forces the water out, and a stream flows. If electricity depends on voltage, then it could be as you say. However, if it depends on creating a current, then would be different. “
Pashuteh Yid, my knowledge of electricity is extremely sketchy, so I am not at all qualified to comment, though this is a fascinating area, and I have no doubt that today’s rabbonim will find a way to make all kinds of halachically-acceptable electric appliances to be used on yom tov someday. Look at what they did with the Kosher Lamp and Kosher Alarm Clock. I was only making a point that some time ago, EVEN electricity was permitted by many poskim to use l’tzorech Yom Tov, BASED on the permissibilty of being ma’avir fire from one place to another. Nowadays most poskim would not commit to giving such a heter, but nonetheless one is not allowed to give mussar to someone who is turning a light on and off, because there is a minority opinion that it was permissible. As I stated for the record, we do not hold by such a heter in my family, but as a child growing up I knew many choshuveh families who did.July 8, 2009 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #650716
Current or previous Rav (assuming of your shul)?July 8, 2009 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #650717
My Rov Zecher Tzaddik L’vrocha. He wrote numerous sifrei halacha, and as I have stated, I know for a fact that Rav Moshe Feinstein Z”TL personally called him when he had his own shailaos. He was the rov of my shul growing up and he was niftar when I was already an adult. But he never lost his halachic perception and acuity until the day he died. I once came to him with a personal shailah after I had miscarried, and was certain he would tell me what I would have paskened on myself (which is why it is always imperative to ask a shailah of your LOR), which was a very machmir view. To my great surprise, his p’sak was a very straightforward and easy one. When I expressed my surprise and actually told him I thought the answer would have been a chumrah, his reply to me was very telling. He said, “Anybody can be machmir and say “assur.” It takes real Torah learning to know when something is muttar.”July 8, 2009 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #650718
oomis1105: One of my favorite quotes from Rashi Beitza 2b. I would just like to see an “inside” source.July 8, 2009 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #650719
Sorry, I don’t have one GAW. And I cannot tell you who my rov was, because that is personal information that could identify me. I can only tell you that he said nothing new in regards to what my entire family and my three decades ago community practiced. I guess we will have to wait for Teiku. If I have the opportunity to ask the shailah in the near future, I will try to get the sources. The whole issue hinges on m’avreir (creation of a spark that did not exist prior to that moment) vs. ma’avir (moving an existing flame from one spot to another)eish. How do you think people who smoke (in my book that should always be assur), did so on Yom Tov? They lit their cigarettes from a candle that was kept lit all yom tov (like a yahrtzeit type).July 8, 2009 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #650720
oomis: sources are Gemorra Beitza 22, Shulchan Aruch 514:2, Mishna Berura 514:16. Igros Moshe 1:93, Shmiras Shabbos K’Hilchaso 13:9-10. They all write that while one may light a fire from an exiting flame on Yom Tov, it may not be extinguished except under specific circumstances. There is no such thing as “just moving” a flame. What is happening is that there is originally one flame (the pilot), you light from it a second flame (the burner) and now you want to extinguish the second flame. This is ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN on Yom Tov mi’Derabannan and there is absolutely NO sefer or Posek who permits it. You clearly are misunderstanding and confusing igniting the flame with extinguishing it.July 8, 2009 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #650721
regarding turning on electric light on Yom Tov:
I clearly remember the article in the Jewish Press from over 20 years ago by “Rabbi” Klass permitting them. I read the article carefully and looked up all of his sources. I don’t know what to call that “teshuva” other than an extreme case of Halachic dishonesty.
He claims that the only authority to forbid turning on lights is the Chazon Ish based on boneh, who he maligns as an extreme, compulsive machmir. While the Chazon Ish was certainly an original thinker and his classification of boneh is not accepted by the majority of Poskim, anyone who has ever perused his seforim seriously would know that there are no lack or original kulos to offset his chumros. Additionally it is negligent and dishonest to ignore Reb Moshe who clearly and unequivocally forbade turning on electric lights.
The two sources he quotes as permitting were written close to a hundred years ago and had little understanding of how electricity worked. The Aruch HaShulchan is an unpublished letter written by one of the Gedolei HaPoskim who never saw electricity in his life. The other is from R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank, and fails to mention that he later retracted his psak.
He concludes by misquoting Rav Ovadia Yosef as saying that he wouldn’t do it him self but wouldn’t say anything to someone who did. What he really said is that he would embarrass the person in public, but would certainly tell him privately that he is going against the vast majority of Poskim.
So there may have been ignorant people in previous generations who unknowingly turned on electric lights on Shabbos, but it was NEVER an accepted psak and is by no means a new chumra not to.July 8, 2009 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #650722
oomis: “m’avreir” is a fan in Hebrew, you mean “mavir” igniting. But there is a significant difference between lighting a fire and extinguishing it, which is clearly the source of your confusion.July 9, 2009 2:24 am at 2:24 am #650723
oomis: “m’avreir” is a fan in Hebrew, you mean “mavir” igniting. But there is a significant difference between lighting a fire and extinguishing it, which is clearly the source of your confusion.
PM, you might be correct about the fan, though I cannot at this moment verify it. However, you may be unaware that “m’av-reir” is a transitive verb which means, “to create a spark.” It is not from the same shoresh as the word “avir” which means wind, which is the source for the Hebrew word for “wind machine” or fan. It is a different word. Ma-avir does NOT mean igniting. L’ha-avir means to move something from one place to another and has absoultely nothing to do with fire, unless you are committing the action of being ma-avir the flame from the pilot to the burner, or from a candle to a cigarette, etc. So ma’avir (not mavir, by the way, there is a patach under the mem and a chataf patach under the ayin)) means one who is moving something from one place to another. I hope this clears up the source of your confusion. And to say this for the final (I hope) time, when using a stove top or oven that has a CONTINUOUSLY LIT pilot (it NEVER EVER GOES OUT, unless you were to douse it with water or blow it out on purpose), it is NOT being extinguished when the burner is shut. The pilot remains LIT. The flame has simply been moved, and that is totally permissible on yom tov when cooking because it dos NOT EXINGUISH THE FLAME. Not even a little bit.July 9, 2009 5:55 am at 5:55 am #650724
oomis: I’m living in EY nearly 29 years and my Ivrit/Lashon HaKodesh is much better than yours. ?????? m’avreir is a noun in modern Hebrew meaning a fan from the word ???? air. This word is not relevant to our discussion on Hilchos Yom Tov. ????? ma’avir means to transfer, as you correctly pointed out, and since it is permitted on Yom Tov you may turn ON your gas oven with a pilot light. ????? mavir is the verb you are looking for than means to ignite a fire and is forbidden on Yom Tov. It is used numerous times in Chumash, for example in Pashas Mishpatim ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? However none of this is relevant the issue at hand of turning off the fire.
You didn’t read what I wrote. The problem is not that you are extinguishing the pilot flame, you are NOT, as you pointed out. The problem is that when you light the fire on the stove you have created a second larger flame on the burner and it is this flame that you are extinguishing, which is absolutely forbidden. If you would have looked at the sources I provided you would have seen that even making an existing flame smaller is forbidden on Yom Tov, except under specific circumstances.July 9, 2009 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #650725jewishfeminist02Member
I am simply shocked at this continuous attack on oomis. From reading the lengthy posts here, it is clear that
1) oomis follows a family minhag
2) she has clarified with her rav several times that what she is doing is mutar
3) she has a complete understanding of the halacha
and yet other posters here seem determined that she is somehow “confused” and “mistaken”! Her psak may not be mainstream, but it is a valid psak nonetheless. Let’s move on, please.July 9, 2009 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #650726
Oomis has already said that making the flame smaller is only for “Tzorich Ochel”.
“Of course, you cannot turn the oven on and off for any reason OTHER than ochel nefesh, i.e. to warm up a room in colder weather such as late fall.”July 9, 2009 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #650727
I thank pashute Yid for a very useful discussion. A change from the trivial subjects.That said, I have to support oomis1105 and TOTALLY disagree with PM. oomis is right in saying that if the pilot remains lit-it is not considered ‘mechabeh”. I mean, this is elementary logic. The flame remains lit!! BTW-PM- your description is wrong. the main light GETS LIT FROM the pilot and it is actually the same flame,it just has expanded. OOMIS is absolutely right that in previous genrations, it was done al lthe time. I suspect that PM is rather young and thinks there is no Torah before 1960.This instance of lowering the flame -or even extinguishing it as long as the pilot light remains lit- was done commonly before chumors became fashionable.
BUT I must take issue with your writing on Rabbi Klass. First-there is a “psechisas hakovod’ in being sarcastic about “Rabbi’ Klass. (another sign of your young age)Rabbi Klass z’l was a talmid of R’Moshe (I believe) and a big talmid chochom. It is no kovod to you-PM- to write that his writing is “Halachic dishonesty”. You would be “over the moon’ to have written hios many columns over a periond of fity years. And, in actuality, what he writes is absolutely correct. When electricity became common, there was a big machlokes between the poskim of that dor what it really was. Sone of the greatest gedolim maintained that it WAS ALLOWED to use elctricity on yom tov. The Brezaner Rov (Maharashdam) who was the greatst Possek in Galicia and Romania -(The grandfather of R’Sholom Shvadron zz’l)was amongst them THAT I KNOW FROM REAL WITNESSES (his talmidim and children)that he thought that electricity was not a “melocho”. so- you are absoluteyl worng thatit was a ‘daas jochid”. The fact is that NO ONE knows how electricity works-not even you, smart man. I will wager a small bet that no one on this website can really explain how it works, so to say, that the Poskim of a hundred years “had little understanding how electricity works” smacks from big chutzpah. What makes yo uthink that the Chazon ish knew better?
There have been various descriptions wof hat kind of melocho it may be, ranging from boneh (Cahzon Ish) to “mavir” to “mevashel” ( the element gets hot- akin to “cooking ” metal) to “makish bepatish”. in ALL of these, there is a Ptur for yom tov and Rabbi Klass was indeed RIGHT in saying that there are meikilim on this matter.
PM- read oomis1105 and what she writes from her posek-it is easy to say “osur’ but it requires a real talmid chochom to be “mattir”.
I’ll be happy to continue discussing thsi matter as long as you-PM- can be mecahebd everyone.July 9, 2009 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #650728
PM – I think it is clear that oomis will not allow herself to be convinced that she is mistaken, but it is still worthwhile for you to make it clear to everyone else that what she is saying goes keigen halacha. Even with an old pilot lit stove.
P.S. IIRC, the psak that allows one to lower an existing flame is almost certainly NOT R’ Moshe zt”l as nishtgeshtoigen suggested. I’m pretty sure he paskened that you must light a second flame instead. But a few other poskim did allow lowering a flame. None allow extinguishing one (or relegating the flame back to below the stovetop – an action that if taken for the food could be more easily done by simply removing the pot, thus doing so is not in any way l’tzoirech).July 9, 2009 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #650729
Oomis, I need help here. My own stove/oven was purchased approximately ten years ago. It is a “no frills” version- no self clean, no fancy dials, etc. It was not difficult to purchase, no special effort involved. The pilot lights are on continuously. The only time they are extinguished is erev Pesach, when the area is given a more than standard cleansing. The areas on the stovetop between each set of burners is hot to the touch, due to the continually lit pilots. Pilots are very helpful for lighting candles second day Y”T, because we don’t usually have flames on.
You sound like you know a lot more about ovens than I do. So, how do our appliances differ? When you refer to a continuous pilot, do you mean something other than I have described?July 9, 2009 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #650730
This is a halachik discussion. I think Oomis is an educated woman and can handle debate. It is in fact quite feminist to be able to participate in such a discussion and handle assertions that one is mistaken!
Oomis, I nominate you feminist educator of the CR!July 9, 2009 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #650731
Thanks JF02, but it is clear that the people who are misunderstanding, really do not know the halacha. My entire community has people whose old stoves were used that way, frum, ehrliche people, rabbonim, their rebbetzins, their Bubbies and Zaydies. My entire family were not following some off the mainstream heter. I am frankly shocked at the tone of some of the posts, because EVEN WERE IT THE CASE THAT I DID NOT UNDERSTAND THE P’SAK (and it is not the case), the very fact that there are (according to some of those posters)minority opinions that this is permissible, should be reason enough for them to stop trying to “convert” me to their thinking, and make me feel I have been mechalleles yom tov all my life, not to mention my parents’, family, and friends’ lives. It would be news to my grandfathers who were rabbonim, to their fathers, who were likewise musmachim, to my neighbors who until recent years all had the same type of stove and oven that I do and ALL cook the same way on Yom Tov.
I think I have been pretty tolerant of these somewhat smug “you must have misunderstood” comments, because it is not my nature to want machlokess. But I want to say something. If anyone holds a differing view as is your right, perhaps your view is the one that is based on a misunderstanding of something that you heard. Just because it is a more strict interpretation, does not make it THE one and only correct interpretation. It might be, but it just as easily might not be. I am not going to start enumerating the many, MANY foolish statements made by some people here over the course of time, in the misguided belief that what they were saying was halacha. Check with your own rabbonim about how to conduct your religious lives, but please do not try to “educate” me about something which I have learned over and over as being correct. Were I to change the type of oven that I now have, I takeh would have to completely change the manner in which I cook on Yom Tov, because the stoves do not work the same way as the one that I have used and that my mother and grandmothers used. But until that day comes, and until my poseik tells me otherwise, I will continue to do what I have always done. I hope this will bring an end to this lively discussion. At least I am glad that my apparently controversial position has kept us all so busy for the past few days. If it encouraged any one to actually look up the halachos related to m’avreir and ma’avir, then it was worth it.July 9, 2009 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #650732
It sounds the same,Bemused, BUT (and this is a big but), my type of stove has not been available for purchase in NY during that time, and maybe not for about 20 years, due to the energy crisis. The state law made it mandatory to NOT allow energy to be consumed needlessly, as with a continuously burning pilot, which rendered all NEW stoves assur for what I have described. I don’t know if you are a New Yorker, as I am, so it IS possible you still have my type of stove, as out of state, they still manufactured this type of stove. I would show the stove to a rov (really), and ask him what you can do. My stovetop also is hot to the touch all the time, for the reason which you describe. Continuous means exactly that, there is never a time when the pilot light extinguishes. it burns 24/7. In the present day models the pilot is not on until the burner dial is turned and an electric spark ignites the pilot (that, I think, is the tick,tick,tick sound I have heard when my friend turns on her stove, and which I do not have). Then the regular burners go on. Clearly that would be assur to turn on and off on Yom Tov.July 9, 2009 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #650733
Thank you, Oomis. I don’t live in NY, so that explains why the stove is still available here.
I actually DID ask a shaila, and the Psak was that the flame may be turned on, raised, lowered in specific circumstances, and never turned off. I asked about your stove because from your post, I thought we might be talking about two different appliances.
PS- when I observe someone using an oven with electric ignition (click click click…) I get the feeling I’ve stepped into a really post-modern world. I think my age is showing…July 9, 2009 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #650734
????? mavir is the verb you are looking for than means to ignite a fire and is forbidden on Yom Tov. It is used numerous times in Chumash, for example in Pashas Mishpatim ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? However none of this is relevant the issue at hand of turning off the fire.
You didn’t read what I wrote. The problem is not that you are extinguishing the pilot flame, you are NOT, as you pointed out. The problem is that when you light the fire on the stove you have created a second larger flame on the burner and it is this flame that you are extinguishing, which is absolutely forbidden. If you would have looked at the sources I provided you would have seen that even making an existing flame smaller is forbidden on Yom Tov, except under specific circumstances”
I was taught the word was m’avreir, (and I never heard it in connection with a fan, but will concede that I could be mistaken about that, though I am certain the word used was m’avreir, as I would have no reason to make up such a word on my own, and did not know the word for fan), but still, mav-ir (to make something burn), and ma-avir (to move something from place to place) are clearly two different words. Now that this is a given, I still contend that turning off the burner is NOT extinguishing the flame, as I have been taught all my life, it is merely re-locating it. If it were extinguished, the pilot would go out (as used to happen in very old-fashioned stoves, some of which were also in my parents’ time),w here the pilot had to be re-lit each time the stove was turned on.July 9, 2009 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #650735
I have to add my few ‘shekels’ again to support oomis. I myself remember very clearly that virtually ALL previous generations did exactly as she writes. Neither PM nor squeak have lived a life long enough to know that. The fact that today we have all succumbed to “chumros” does not make earlier hetterim invalid. oomis is not “mistaken” at all. Nowadays, everyone seems to think that we all have to live according to the chumros of the chazon ish. For thousand years, we have ahd differetn opinions and people lived and acted as per their Posske. The view espoused by PM and squeak-that there is only one legitimate halachic view- leads to sinas chinom and huge machlokes- see eiruv in Boro park and London.
to pashute yid- thanks again for this subect. BTW- your description of electricity is exactly why some poskim think that it is not a melocho- it is like opening or shutting a water faucet and ,clearly, it cannot be the meloch of boneh. Incidentally, even if you accept this view that it is boneh, it si muttar on yom tov, see Shabbos 95-1 and tosofos “Horodeh”July 9, 2009 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #650736
gavra at work- cold in the winter may qaulify under “hakol cholim eizel tsinah”- we are all sick as per the cold and therefore, it may even be allowed in that case, because it is ‘zorech kezas”. all this for yom tof of courseJuly 9, 2009 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #650737
oomis is right in saying that if the pilot remains lit-it is not considered ‘mechabeh”. I mean, this is elementary logic. The flame remains lit!!
Too bad that elementary logic falls apart when applied to melocho. Lowering a flame is considered mechabeh, just as increasing one is considered ma’avir. If you say Bameh Madlikin you should know this, even if you never learned Hilchos Shabbos. If you really did know this, then consider what a disservice you are doing to others by pretending that something assur is logically muttar. Korach’s leitzanus didn’t help anyone either.July 9, 2009 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #650738
turning off the burner is NOT extinguishing the flame, as I have been taught all my life, it is merely re-locating it. If it were extinguished, the pilot would go out
I bolded your mistake. “Extinguished” is not the important thing here, “Mechabeh” is. And in fact, you are “Mechabeh” each time you lower the flame even a tiny drop. So from high flame to medium flame is Mechabeh, even though the pilot did not go out and the burner did not go out. The important thing to remember here is that Mechabeh is allowed in some circumstances. But not in all.July 9, 2009 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #650739
Good point, but I don’t see how lowering a flame will help a cold person 🙂
My point regarding electricity is that even some current respected Yeshivish Poskim hold that one may adjust electricity for Tzorech Ochel on Yom tov (let alone the “Shabbos ovens!”)
Squeak: “The important thing to remember here is that Mechabeh is allowed in some circumstances. But not in all.”
There is a very big difference (Al Pi Rav Moshe) between being Mechabe (via water & the sort) and stopping the flow of fuel.July 9, 2009 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #650740
I myself remember very clearly that virtually ALL previous generations did exactly as she writes. Neither PM nor squeak have lived a life long enough to know that.
And how many lifetimes have you lived, sir?July 9, 2009 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #650741
squeak- you are confusing apples and oranges….lowering the flame on shabbos is a melocho. However, oomis was saying that- in case of zorech- on YOM TOV you can lower the flame. Now, that, I imagine, you will not dispute. All I added was that in lowering the flame to the point of it only including the pilot light-it comes under that hetter because you are not “extinguishing’ (mechabeh)the flame. You maintain (as you write)that the pilot light is another flame and hence you have extinghished a flame. The poskim that oomis quotes disagreed.
I see no disservice to anyone to quote acceptable hetterim. What is a disservice is to claim that there is only one valid halacha view.NOW that is something that brings us to the sinas chinom that stems from ‘machlokes korach ve-adosoi”
your reply to oomis shows your mistake and let me explain.
the hetter of using fire on yom tov comes from ‘zorech ochel nefesh” that implies cooking. EXTINGUISHING A FLAME is not considered the need for cooking and hence, “mechabeh” is ossur. HOWEVER, if you need the lowering of the flame to conitnue cooking, it is ALLOWED as per ochel nefesh. Oomis is saying that, in previous times, you could lower the flame- in the PROCESS of cooking-until only the pilot light was lit. As long as there was some fire, it was not considerd mechabeh. That is the gist of her words.July 9, 2009 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #650742
gavra at work- thanks for the support and for pointing out that even squeak admits that some Poskim distinguish between TOTAL extinguishing a light and lowering it.
I am indebted to you for pointing out that even some “yeshivish’ poskim allow the full use of electricity on yomtov for ochel nefesh.
squeak- suffice it to say that I have seen half century long ago, which, i daresay, you are still aspiring to- le-orech jomimJuly 9, 2009 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #650743SJSinNYCMember
Ames, Oomis has stated that she did repeatedly ask her Rav. Is it so hard for people understand that are multiple piskei halacha out there? People have trouble respecting other piskei halacha, especially if they are more lenient than what they follow.
Discussion is one thing – attempting to ridicule Oomis (ala I think it is clear that oomis will not allow herself to be convinced that she is mistaken, but it is still worthwhile for you to make it clear to everyone else that what she is saying goes keigen halacha) is another. Its one thing to say “I disagree with the psak” or discuss why they think its wrong.July 9, 2009 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #650744
You are welcome. It was earlier in the thread.
Squeak: Please show me (or tell me) who says that lowering a flame for the purpose of making sure food does not burn on Yom Tov is Assur. Oomis has a Psak that if the pilot is still on, then its still only lowering the flame and not extinguishing it (logical), and is allowed for Tzorech Ochel. It seems that, and only that, is the point of contention.July 9, 2009 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #650745
sjsnyc-you have hit it on the head. this is not a case of issur vehetter. oomis clearly has the acceptance of many poskim and i can vouchsafe for that. What yo usee on the other side is intolerance for a halchci decision that goes agaisnt the “chumro’ grain. This is becoming such a major cause of rift in our jewish world (just look what is being said now in israel in the question of geirim and the viulent machlokes it has borught about)) that it is truly frighteneing. Virtually anyone coming up with a hetter nowadays gets insulted, accused of the worst sins of israel and slung out of the machane. That is unaccetable. For two thousand years ‘koach de-heteira odif’ was the norm. for whatever reason, this generation has chosen otherwise.July 9, 2009 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #650746
ROB, ha – on both counts! And even if you are 50s, that’s not nearly enough years to validate your ridiculous assertion as to your memories!
SJS, I do not disagree with a psak. I am not on the level. I am saying that there is no such psak. Here are the shittos that I am aware of.
1) One may never lower a flame on Y”T. One may light a second, smaller flame instead to better cook the food (most poskim). One may also light flames for other purposes (when mi’toich applies).
2) One may lower a flame or light a second smaller one to better cook the food. One may also light (but not lower) flames for other purposes (when mi’toich applies).
What no one says is that one may turn off the burner after the food is finished cooking. It doesn’t matter that a small flame remains somewhere else, what does matter is that the flame was lowered for a non-oichel nefesh purpose. If oomis is going to cling to a non-existant shittoh, one which doesn’t even make sense if you understand what we permit on Y”T for oichel nefesh, then I don’t think it is ridiculing her to want that others should not accept it on her word.
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