November 30, 2017 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #1416306
Somehow, I don’t think Seichel Hayoshor is going to be too thrilled when he reads MoshiachChat’s latest nonsense.November 30, 2017 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1416310
“Somehow, I don’t think Seichel Hayoshor is going to be too thrilled ”
I think at this point, even Shlucha won’t be….
How old is that kid? I will be Dan Lkaf Zchus and say he’s tops 15 YO.November 30, 2017 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1416313
So, after over 850 posts on this topic it seems that most reasonable and rational people would agree:
– the Rebbe was a talmid chacham who was niftar and buried on 3 Tamuz 5754
– there are no actual sources that he ever claimed to be a navi or Moshiach
– there were some gedolim who said complimentary things about him but none who claimed he was a navi or Moshiach
– most Orthodox Jews never accepted him as their leader and certainly don’t now
Almost twenty-four years later a majority of Chabad still insists on arguing these points due to the personality cult they built around their Rebbe. While, as Rav Aharon Feldman wrote, this doesn’t automatically make them heretics, it certainly raises serious questions about their judgment and rationality.
How sad that a movement which continues to do so much selfless good is so fundamentally flawed!November 30, 2017 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #1416315
“Somehow, I don’t think Seichel Hayoshor is going to be too thrilled when he reads MoshiachChat’s latest nonsense.”
I’ve long given up on reasoning with him. It only makes him say more nonsense. It’s like the gears on a bicycle, the harder the resistance, the faster it gets.November 30, 2017 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #1416327
You have yet to show how it’s nonsense. In fact, most of u leave dozens of points ignored and just call me names or personally insult meNovember 30, 2017 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #1416328
Why is it nonsense? Stop calling me names and being an argument like a normal human beingNovember 30, 2017 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #1416309KovnaParticipant
I read a Rashi today and there is a big rebbe who never learned this rashi so he will be jealous of me,There was a bochur in ponovezh who learned a shtikel in rav chaim,and there was a bochur in 770 who didn’t learn it so he is jealous of him. The rebbe was from the Dor after the chazon ish and since the Doros get weaker the chazon ish was bigger than the rebbe in learning so he is jealous of whatever he knew more,how ever you use the term jealous.There is no jealousy from the chazon ish to a little boy learning chasidus .November 30, 2017 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #1416325
@Gaon i have no earthly idea what point ur making about knowing all the ins and outs of what nevuah is. It’s not relevant. There are Halacha’s listed in the Rambam(and idea brought elsewhere) and the Rebbe brings those Halacha’s(and those ideas) and says he’s a prophet. Any appeal to hidden things is not at all relevant to this conversation.November 30, 2017 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1416350
By “calling the Rebbe a navi sheker” I didn’t mean u were calling him one right now. I’m aware u didn’t accept the idea that he even was trying to give nevuahs. I was saying in short hand that if u accepted it then why would he be a navi sheker? “For what reason is he a navi sheker[under the assumption that he tried to give nevuahs as I’ve said]”
“I think calling him[in situation where u accept that he said it] a navi sheker..” cause ur obviously assuming that if he did then he would be. So to that I’m saying, u don’t have a proper understanding of the sources if u think that
Ur first point on my comment made no sense. I said ” The Rebbe said he was a navi, not me”
U said “I wouldn’t expect the Rebbe to call you a navi”
I wasn’t calling myself a navi. I was saying the Rebbe was calling himself a navi and it wasn’t just me calling him a navi.November 30, 2017 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1416307
I will leave you with one little quote from The Sefer Hachasidim:
(anyone – interpret and take it however you wish !)
אם תראה אדם שמתנבא על משיח, דע שעסקיו היו במעשה כשפים או במעשה שדים או במעשה שם המפורש, ובשביל שהם מטריחים את המלאכים אומרים לו על משיח, כדי שיתגלה לעולם (על שהטריחו המלאכים), ולבסוף יהיה לבושת ולחרפה לכל העולם, על שהטריחו המלאכים או השדים באים ולומדים לו חשבונות וסודות לבושתו ולבושת המאמינים בדבריו.
– (ספר חסידים (ר”ו –November 30, 2017 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1416361
@phil read Shoftim 1991(navuah) read
Mishpatim 1992, vayeira 1992, Chayei Sarah 1992, balak 1991, Tazria metora 1991 in likkutei sichos and Rabbeinu shebebavel kuntreis(moshiachNovember 30, 2017 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1416352
There are of course sources that the Rebbe said he as a navi and moshiach. I mentioned many of them when I first got here but they went ignored.
All u do is mock me and u want to talk about reasoning? How about u explain what I’ve done wrong. So far all u corrected me on was saying “book of halachos” that’s it. Nothing else. Another point or two were just misunderstands of what I meant but u never got back to them after I clarified. U are full of nothing. None of my main points have been addressed after I’ve repeated them multiple times. Again, address the argumentsNovember 30, 2017 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1416320
Everytime u insult me u just contradict what u said to me many messages ago about representing lubavitch and it gets funnier every time. Some advice, it shows more about u (and ur middos) than it does about me. I’m going to leave it there. After everything u have said, I think it’s a pretty tame rebuke.
וז״ש במשיח חיים נתתי לו חיים נצחיים דא״ס דכתי׳ ביה ה׳ ימלוך לעולם ועד והוא ענין דוד מלך ישראל חי וקיים אבל משיח בן יוסף אין נצהי כו
אך הענין הוא דמה שאומרים דוד מ׳י חי וקיים קאי על משיח ב׳ד…..אבל על משיח נא׳ נתתה לו בח׳ מתנה שאינה חוזרת ולכך יהי׳ חיים נציים כו׳
ומזה יש הוראה על יתרון מעלה ומדריגת המשיח גם על חנוך כי חנוך הוצרך להתפשט מחומר הגופני בעלותו למעלה, ומשיח יתקיים בגופו עם שרש נשמתו למה כמו שהוא למעלה ממש
ואף שבהמשך הכתוב נאמר ״לפני מותו״ הרי מובן וגם פשוט, שבימינו אלה, לאחרי כל מה שעברו במשך הדורות שלפנ״ז ויצטו ידי חובת כל הענינים הבלתי-רצויים (כמובא גם בדרושי אדמו׳ר האמצעי), אין עוד ענינים של ירידה כו׳ (כולל גם שלילת הענין ד״מאן דנפיל מדרגי׳ איקרי כו׳״), ובמילא, ישנה מציאותו של משה— ״גואל ראשון הוא גואל אחרון—נשמה בגוף באופן נצחי Rebbe
מזה מובן החידוש דדורנו—הדור התשיעי לגבי כל הדורות שלפנ׳ז, עד לדור שלפנ״ז (דור השמיני): מכיון שהגאולה לא באה אז בפועל, ה״בא אל פרעה״ (הגילוי ד״אתפריעו כל נהורין למטה) לו הי׳ בתכלית השלימות כנשמה בגוף בריא (היתה הסתלקות הנשמה מו הגוף, וגם הנשמה בגוף היתה במצב ש״הדיבור הוא בגלות וכו); משא״כ בדורנו זה- הדור האחרון לגלות והדור הראשון לגאולה
RebbeNovember 30, 2017 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1416390
Hashem made a promise that שלו יכבה נרו לעולם ועד this also is connected to moshiach and is brought in the psak din of the Rabbanim in 1992 about the Rebbe having chaim nitzchim it’s also on videoNovember 30, 2017 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1416375
“read Shoftim 1991(navuah) read Mishpatim 1992, vayeira 1992, Chayei Sarah 1992, balak 1991, Tazria metora 1991 in likkutei sichos and Rabbeinu shebebavel kuntreis(moshiach”
No, your twisted interpretation is that the Rebbe claimed he was a navi and Moshiach. Just as you claim that “Hashem made an oath that Moshiach won’t die” but can’t back it up.November 30, 2017 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #1416407
The fact that u are assuming they are twisted without actually looking at them is rather sad and shows how u see this conversation. I just sent dozens of sources which show there are sources that say moshiach lives forever. I just said the “oath” goes on a different promise which is a promise from hashem which goes on moshiach and it’s quoted in the psak din I tried to link it but it’s not allowed Idk whyNovember 30, 2017 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #1416408Little FroggieParticipant
GAON…. Wow! How’d you find that (oops, forgot you’re a Gaon!)
EVERYONE: Watch as it gets nuttier and nuttier with every post. Obviously mirroring indoctrination and inoculation they’ve been force-fed since day one. Propaganda committee has done a wonderful job.
And I have a niggling feeling the reason they kept this thread open is to let THEM show the world what’s in their mind. What they’re made of. Their psyche. And being the kind of people the were bainsacked (new word: to hijack and ransack another’s brain) to be, they fall for it and spew forth all their stuff. No shame of inhibition. אין לו בושת.
Bring it on!!! Let’s hear some more!!November 30, 2017 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #1416414PunkParticipant
Moshiachchat just convinced me that the rebbe is still speaking, and even when he got the stroke his “dibbur” was not in galus.November 30, 2017 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #1416423slominerParticipant
Sechel HaYashar –
You maintain the Rebbe didn’t claim to be Moshiach. But the Rebbe said the Beis HaMikdash will be built at 770. Isn’t that a pretty strong hint of him indicating the Rebbe of Lubavitch will be Moshiach?November 30, 2017 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #1416410
Also please appreciate I’m not necessarily going to respond to u first and the messages will be too long for the moderators. Perhaps judge less instead of attributing nefarious motives to me every time I type. Perhaps I’m busy, or made a mistake, or forgot! Why must it instantly be a conspiracy with u. Come onNovember 30, 2017 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #1416418
I don’t know where the Rebbe that he is a Navi. And I know what you’re going to say, so: Navi there quite clearly doesn’t mean literally a Navi as in Navi in the Torah. And the Rebbe doesn’t say that he’s a Navi of any kind. I definitely believe that the Rebbe had Ruach Hakodesh, but that’s not literal Nevuah. And Chayim Nitzchiyim? Sure, when Moshiach comes he’ll have Chayim Nitzchiyim. As I type this message, I’m still in Galus.November 30, 2017 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1416443
You have yet to show how it’s nonsense.”
” Any appeal to hidden things is not at all relevant to this conversation.”
Sorry if I did insult you, but this entire subject is nothing less than one big frustration and insulting issue.
Even more frustrating… is that you don’t seem to come across as an entire ignorant kid, nevertheless, totally confused and brainwashed.
In my world or any other reasonable person here – if one would to decide any major decision about something, we would first make sure we are total versed IN and OUT on that issue. I would be reading and studying anything available to fully understand to the best of my ability …and THEN base my decision on what I hear, know and comprehend.
YOU and many other confused neshamas decided that the Rebbe prophesied a prophecy.
Perhaps you misunderstood his words? Perhaps you misunderstood what the term Navi was meant etc?
If I were you I would would extensively study and try to answer the following and many others, before you speak.
Is there Nevuah in Chutz leAretz?
Is there a specific Lashon a Navi prophesies?
How is a Navi established?
If there is a concept of “Ruach haKodesh” which can foretell the future – what is then the significance of Navuah?
How does one become a Navi Sheker? What is a Navi Sheker all about?
Can anyone become a Navi – is Navuah tied to the Tzadik Hador?
When did Nevuah cease?
Did it gradually cease – Why did it cease?
Was there a prophecy about Nevuah ceasing?
Will Nevuah reappear again? If yes – when and how?
Are there different levels of Navuah?
Does Moshiach need to be a Navi?
If yes – what level of a Navi will he be?
“there are Halacha’s listed in the Rambam”
Fine. Lets start with the following Rambam:
לפיכך כשיבוא אדם הראוי לנבואה במלאכות השם
What does the term “אדם הראוי לנבואה” mean?
Hint: It does not mean he can preform miracles as that is what he describes later, nor does it mean Nasi Hador…November 30, 2017 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1416465PunkParticipant
@slominer. It’s pretty clear to me that the Rebbe did see himself as a POTENTIAL Moshiach. The danger is when you when you start mixing up potential as having Halachik status.November 30, 2017 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1416466apushatayidParticipant
“Rav Vosners reputation as a Posek and Tzadik speaks for itself, and his relationship with Chabad speaks for itself.”
Was he a follower of chabad? Its shittos? Did he encourage his talmidim to do so? He said what any honest person would. The shluchim are wonderful people doing great things with mesiras nefesh.
Your fanciful leap that he endorsed everything the rebbe z’l said and did would be quite astonishing , except you have already proven time and time again that it is standard practice for you.November 30, 2017 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1416468
Regardless of u calling me ignorant and confused, I appreciate ur comment as it came off very friendly, but worried. Do u mind if I quote some of what the Rebbe said and u can tell me if my interpretation sounds totally off?
Ps. Most of ur questions are addressed by the Rebbe in his sichos on prophecy. Off the bat, I do have answers to a lot of them, but u can understand my wanting to keep things shorter and just give u sources like likkutei sichos Shoftim 1991, when I’ve been talking to an audience who mock and demand quick answers to things that take much time and groundlaying while simultaneously they have skeptometers cranked to 11.November 30, 2017 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1416457apushatayidParticipant
I completely give up on trying to follow this thread or any of the side conversation going on. Too many messages too quickly.November 30, 2017 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1416459KovnaParticipant
Moshe rabeinu said to 2 types of speeches one was mitoch groinoy and one wasn’t.one was called sichos moshe rabeinu ,the other was called maamar dmoshe.I think the possuk says he had a mateh (handkerchief)by his maamarim.Also any quote from the rebbe before he came rebbe isn’t mitoch gronoy it’s like an ordinary rabbi.After he came rebbe it’s the position that gave him nevuah in general and a level of mitoch gronoy!! Positions don’t give you madreigos in nevuah like that from no nevuah to mitoch gronoy ,anyway he wasnt a navi.November 30, 2017 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1416447litvisherchossidParticipant
@little froggie- Nice observation except that if/when this ever gets to chabad webites and social media, they will use all of this against the Yiddishe Velt and claim “HATERS OF LUBAVITCH” “Everyone hates us till this day!” “WE ARE VICTIMS”. “Here is the Proof!”
So really you just cant win.November 30, 2017 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #1416484
Yeah, people saying I’m an embarrassment to my Rebbe, brainwashed, logic won’t work on me, purposely being sneaky and avoiding questions etc etc etc is all made up victim syndrome.November 30, 2017 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #1416487
“Now, just as there is the command to obey the “judges” in all times, as it is written in our Parshah: “and you shall come… to the judge who shall be in those days” (as mentioned above in ch. 6), so too [this is so] regarding prophets – as it is written afterwards in the continuation of the Parshah72: “a prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, Hashem your G-d will appoint for you – you shall listen to him,” as the Rambam elaborates in the book of Mada,58 that “among the foundations of the religion [is the obligation] to know that Hashem expresses prophecy through people”, [and writes] regarding the Mitzvah to obey to the prophet, and he explains there 73 the details of these laws.
Since the Rambam includes this in his book “solely of laws”74 (and at great length), and with the preface that this is “among the foundations of the religion” – it is understood, that this is a law which applies to the Jewish people throughout the generations. And although the Sages said75 “when the last prophets: Chagai Zecharyah and Malachi passed away, Ruach Hakodesh (the Holy Spirit) left Yisroel” – on a di erent occasion it was said76 the explanation of this, that it has not been completely nulli ed (it only “left”, however [it was] not “nulli ed” or “stopped”77). As undertood from the fact, that even after [those prophets] we nd Ruach Hakodesh by several78 [righteous people78]. (This is also understood from the fact, that in his book of laws – among all the conditions for prophecy – the Rambam does not mention any conditions regarding the era for prophecy, [namely, he does not write] ‘once the last prophets passed away [prophecy has ceased]’79).”November 30, 2017 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #1416488
“Furthermore: the Rambam writes in the ‘letter to Yemen80’, that in a certain year (as he calculates there) “prophecy will return to the Jewish people”, “and there is no doubt that the return of prophecy is the introduction of Moshiach (as it says81 ‘your sons and daughters will prophesy…’)”.”November 30, 2017 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1416491
“…it is a law for all generations – also in the time of exile – that “it is among the foundations of the religion to know that Hashem expresses prophecy through people” that always (in all the generations) it is possible to have the phenomenon of revelation of prophecy below [in this world], up to the level of prophecy which is similar to the prophecy of Moshe, [of whom it is written] “a prophet82 I will appoint for them from among their brothers like you”83 – the completeness of the concept of prophecy, as explained in the Rambam at length84.
According to this we may say the reason why the Rambam writes at length84 regarding the manner of Moshe’s prophecy. Seemingly: what happened, happened85 – what relevance does it have in a book ‘solely of laws’ for the Jewish people in all the generations? And if this is pertinent [only] to the time after the coming of Moshiach when “Moshe is with them”86, indeed we will see it for ourselves and there is no necessity to say a law about this now?!”November 30, 2017 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #1416495
“And especially after “prophecy shall return to the Jewish people”, which is the “introduction of Moshiach” (as mentioned above) – the prophecy that our Rightous Moshiach will have (who “is90 a great prophet close to Moshe Rabbeinu”91), and [about whom] our Sages have said92 that “the rst redeemer (Moshe) is [similar to] the last redeemer”, and in each and every generation there is one person be tting this position – therefore we need to know the law also in this time (even before the Redemption), that there is the phenomenon of the revelation of prophecy ([which] Moshiach [has] even before the Redemption). This is a taste and the beginning (“your advisors as in the beginning”) of the completeness of the revelation of prophecy [as it will be] after the Redemption. In other words this is not an innovation which will be innovated only after the Redemption, rather that its beginning is achieved even before [the Redemption], in a manner of “your advisors as in the beginning”. Therefore the Rambam writes this in his book of laws (and especially since the Rambam writes in his book also the laws regarding the days of Moshiach, including – the introduction to it).”November 30, 2017 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #1416494
“The explanation of this is: in all the generations – also before Moshe’s resurrection – it is pertinent to know the law, that “Hashem expresses prophecy through people” (revelation of G-dliness on the level of the creations), including the completeness of this as it was by Moshe87. Furthermore: in every generation it is possible that “a prophet I will appoint for them… like you,” as the Rambam explains88 that “every prophet that arises after Moshe Rabbeinu (our teacher), we do not believe him only because of the wonder [he shows us]… rather because of the Mitzvah that Moshe commanded in the Torah…” Meaning to say, that every prophet is the continuation of Moshe’s prophecy and his Torah89 (only that in the revelation of prophecy there are di erent levels, as explained in the Rambam84). In our generation [this prophet is] the leader of our generation….”November 30, 2017 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1416502
“One must] publicize both to oneself and to all those that can be reached that they must accept upon themselves and take upon themselves (with greater strength) the instructions and advice of “your judges” and “your advisors” of our generation – “who are the kings? the Rabbis”111 in general, and especially the leader of our generation – who comes in continuation to the Rebbes, our leaders, before him – the judge of our generation, advisor of our generation, and prophet of our generation”November 30, 2017 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1416503
And as the Commandment of the Torah mentioned above82: “a prophet I will appoint for them from among their brothers, like you and I will put My words in his mouth and he will speak to them all that I will command them,” “to him you shall listen and as [explained in] the above-mentioned ruling of the Rambam, that if one has the virtues and attributes of perfection which a prophet must have, and he shows signs and wonders –aswesaw and see in the continuation of the ful llment of the blessings of the leader of our generation – behold “we do not believe in him because of the signs alone, rather due to the commandment that Moshe commanded in the Torah, that if he gives a sign, you shall listen to him'”. This [sign] is when “he shall say things which are destined to be in the world and his words shall be proven correct”112 (as has been seen…”November 30, 2017 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1416504
You cherry-pick words from sources and intricately twist them like a pretzel to confirm the very stubbornly cultish dogma that has been built around your departed Rebbe. It’s so sad to see what passes for learning among Lubavitchers, who were once a force to be reckoned in the Torah world. In our day and age when Torah is so accessible to all Jews, Chabad has chosen to dumb themselves down like the peasants of old.
Your comments remind me of the nursery rhyme that simple parents would sing to their children about their Rebbe:
“Er veist ven du shloft, er veist ven du vakst, er veist ven du bist shlecht oder gut, az zeinen gut!”November 30, 2017 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #1416505
Moreover: “a prophet about whom another prophet testi ed that he is a prophet” – as it is regarding the leader of our generation, and this continues in the following generation through his disciples etc. – “behold it is established that he is a prophet, and the second one does not need inquiry”113; and he must be obeyed imminently and immediately even “before he shall make a sign” and “it is prohibited to have second thoughts about him and have doubts about his prophecy, that perhaps it is not true, and it is prohibited to test him more than necessary, as it says114 ‘you shall not test Hashem your G-d as you tested [Him] at Massah’… Rather, once it is known that he is a prophet they shall believe and know that Hashem is in their midst and they should not have second thoughts about him…”113. This is because we believe the words of a prophet, not because these are the words of the prophet, rather because these are the words of Hashem through this prophet!
[[They are] not even the words that Hashem had said through a second prophet, but were not said to him].
[Hence,] there is the instruction as mentioned above, that it must be publicized to all the people of the generation, that we have merited that Hashem chose and appointed a person of free-will, who in his own right is incomparably superior to the people of the generation, that he should be the “judge” and “advisor” and prophet of the generation, who will issue directives and give advice regarding the Service of all the Jewish people and all the people of this generation, in all matters of Torah and Mitzvahs, and also in regard to the general day-to-day life and conduct including [advice and directives] in [matters of ] “in all your ways (you shall know Him)”
and “all your deeds (shall be for the sake of Heaven),115”
Including the main prophecy – the prophecy116 that “immediately to redemption” and literally immediately “Behold, he (Moshiach) comes”
“Not [being said] just as a sage and judge rather as a prophet, which [therefore] it is de nite – see short discourses of the Alter Rebbe p. 355-6.”November 30, 2017 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #1416501
“This is especially so in the recent generations, when it was added the phenomenon of ‘the revelation of the inner aspects of the Torah’. This began with the “Mitzvah to reveal this knowledge” in the time of the Arizal94. As well as later on – “your wellsprings [of Chassidus] shall spread outward95” by our Rebbes our leaders – which through them “prophecy shall return to the Jewish people” (in the above-mentioned words of the Rambam)96, “He revealed His secret to his servants the prophets,” [indeed] they are the prophets of our generation97 to the extent of “a prophet from among you… like me” (since they are ‘the extension of Moshe in every generation’98), and they are the “judges” and “advisors” of our generation:
[They are] “your judges” – since they are our leaders, and a Nasi [leader] (an idiom of Hisnasus [exalted]) is incomparably higher than all those who he leads (similar to what is says99 “and he [Shaul] was taller than all the people, from his shoulders upward”), and [they] also [are] our Rebbes who teach Torah to the whole nation – similar to “judges”; and [they are also] “advisors” – who give advice in matters of Torah and fear of Heaven100, and even in physical matters (the concept of prophets)”
“Iggeres Hakodesh ibid. – Although the
Alter Rebbe writes there: “remember the days of old… and where, oh where have you found such a custom… that it should be the custom and
regulation to ask for advice in mundane matters – what one is to do in matters pertaining to the physical world etc. except for the real prophets that were aforetimes amongst Jewish people…” – However, it is known that after this the Alter Rebbe received – and his successors the Rebbes, our leaders – the inquiries of Chasidim regarding mundane matters (see his known Iggeres Hakodes s.v. Nefesh Hashefeilah – Igros Kodesh Admo”r Hazokein, end of sect. 5 (page 151)), and he answered them (see Sefer Shiurim B’sefer Hatanya on Iggeres Hakodes a.l. (page 1585)).”November 30, 2017 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #1416518
Not on the navuah track but just in general I thought u might appreciate this in how to understand how a Lubavitcher sees his Rebbe :
“The concept of a Rebbe is to reveal down here in this physical world what he heard in Gan Eden. The Rebbe is the [concept of] “I stand between G-d and you at that time to tell you the Word of G-d”(Devarim 5:5) as is written of Moshe Rabbeinu. “To tell you” means “to draw down to you” the Word of G-d”- Previous Rebbe, Likkutei Dibborim vol 4 p. 1408
“…And when a Tzaddik speaks, there is no doubt, he does not say something that is not true, G-d forbid”
-Rebbe, igros Kodesh #621November 30, 2017 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #1416527
Daas Why is it nonsense? Stop calling me names and being an argument like a normal human being
Because the Rebbe passed away, and Moshiach hasn’t come.November 30, 2017 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1416528
“…And when a Tzaddik speaks, there is no doubt, he does not say something that is not true, G-d forbid”
-Rebbe, igros Kodesh #621
This, in a nutshell, is the problem with Chabad.
You decided that a basar vodom is infallible, and when it became clear that he made a mistake, your world turned upside down. So you suspended all reason and rational thinking to twist matters to fit your indefensible world view.November 30, 2017 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #1416534
This is insane. Phil u ask for specific sources, and then I spend my time copying quotes(which all come from the same sicha actually) in very long paragraphs and u tell me I’m cherry picking. Do u want me to type up the whole book? I can’t win with u. This is nuts. I gave u more paragraphs than anyone on this entire forum with plenty of context. But because u don’t like the conclusion u tell me I’m cherry picking. How absurd. I’ve told u where it is already. U can look it up for yourself but u would rather call me names and make up allegations. I’ve done what u asked. Not reasonable at all.
“You decide”. Me/chabad didn’t decide this. This is from the Rebbe take it up with him. The whole point of this conversation is that I’m assuming u will accept as valid Torah the Rebbes teachings. I thought the question was how can I prove this is what he said but I see this conversation doesn’t even allow me to use my own Rebbe as a source.
Hard not to feel like chabad isn’t being attacked when people say “see this is what is wrong with chabad”….November 30, 2017 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #1416545
moshiach not coming yet does not negate what the Rebbe said if u just read the sichos. Moshiach is very complex issue and it’s silly to pretend I can explain it all or even know 1/100000 of what there is to know about when moshiach will come to u right now on this chat. Study the Rebbes sichos yourself. I’ll point out tho there is a source which says moshiach will say it’s time to be redeemed but the redemption won’t come until certain things happen. We also saw by moshe that he went to pharaoh and told him to let the people go and then things got worse for awhile and he was concealed. He didn’t say the redemption was gonna come on Friday September 2nd 1992. He said it’s coming MiYad in this generation which isn’t as simple. What Miyad means is discussed in shaas and the Rebbe talked about it. He did not give an exact time of which was proven wrong. Check his sources for more infoNovember 30, 2017 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #1416542
Your childish cutting-and-pasting of sources that supposedly confirm your warped views help me understand Harav Shach’s zt”l fierce opposition to the Rebbe’s Rambam campaign. He foresaw that Chabad would very simplistically learn Mishne Torah, which needs to be studied in great depth, then deliberately corrupt and misuse it to confirm their cultish dogmas.
Truly, chacham adif minavi!November 30, 2017 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #1416549
Idk what rational thinking has been twisted by quoting my Rebbe. U asked for what he said and I told u. U don’t like it, fine u don’t like it. But I’m not gonna pretend I’m twisting a bunch of things when all I’m doing is giving u the quotes u asked for. GRRRRR HE WONT QUOTE ANYTHING! U GOT NOTHING! UR RUNNING AWAY!
*gives sources dozens of sources more than anyone on this chat which most haven’t read*
WOW UR TWISTING THINGS! UR MAKING IT UP! YOU ARE DECIDING ALL THIS
tell me how I can do this the right way cause I quote the Rebbe and u guys freak out, I don’t quote him and tell u to see the source for yourself in ur own way and u freak out. Makes me think u have just decided ur gonna disagree and insult chabad or me no matter what I say. Which would be irrational.November 30, 2017 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #1416559
MoshiachChat, I honestly didn’t read what you quoted. What are you trying to convince me, that he called himself a navi, moshiach, and infallible?
Let’s say you convince me that he called himself all of the above. My conclusion would be the rational one – that he was a megalomaniac.
You’re trying to convince us that the Rebbe was a cult leader, yet you want us to accept your beliefs as normative Judaism. It’s not very reasonable to think that we will.
I can accept Seichal Hayoshor’s approach as within normative Judaism. He feels the Rebbe was a great man, but didn’t claim all these things about himself. Sure, my mesorah about how to approach Moshiach, kiruv, learning, and other inyanim are different, but that doesn’t mean that I think his are outside of Judaism.
Your nonsense is, though, and it appears that your attempts (and ChabadShluchah’s) have backfired, and instead of convincing people to accept your approach as legitimate, have convinced people who weren’t sure that it’s not.November 30, 2017 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #1416576
(What a name for a nice Jewish boy)
“Harav Shach’s zt”l fierce opposition to the Rebbe’s Rambam campaign. He foresaw that Chabad would very simplistically learn Mishne Torah, which needs to be studied in great depth, then deliberately corrupt and misuse it to confirm their cultish dogmas.”
I’m not sure what he foresaw, but as recently as 5772 Rav Vosner gave a beautiful speech at the Siyum HoRambam in Yerushalayim, and praised the Rebbes initiative. Such logic is like saying that Daf Yomi shouldn’t be learned because someone might take the wrong ideas out of it by learning it on a superficial level.
The Siyum HoRambam has always been attended by Gedolei Harabbanim, and opposition to Yidden learning Torah solely because of who the initiator was brings into question the motives of his machlokes, whether it was a machlokes Lsheim Shomayim or not.
Lest you think that I’m lacking emunas chachomim or questioning Gedolei HaDor, I quote the words of Daas Yochid, a famed Coffee Room contributer, and an avid poster on this forum:
“You decided that a basar vodom is infallible, and when it became clear that he made a mistake, your world turned upside down. So you suspended all reason and rational thinking to twist matters to fit your indefensible world view.”
It’s quite clear to many Yidden that however great he was, he made a mistake by declaring out children Bnei Niddah, our wine assur, our children not worthy of marrying, and many other indefensible statements.November 30, 2017 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1416585RSoParticipant
In Moshiachat’s defense I don’t agree with the criticism that he’s making things up. He’s quoting the lubavitcher rebbe.
And what that means is that there are now a lot more people than before this thread whose opinion of the lubavitcher rebbe have been lowered, to say the least.November 30, 2017 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #1416579
I quoted it because u wanted sources. Now ur saying u don’t want sources. Do us a favor and make up ur mind. That’s what the Rebbe said. It’s not my problem u won’t accept it.
His views are well within Judaism as I’ve given Jewish sources for all of it and so has the Rebbe. Don’t be surprised that there are dozens of sources in shaas that u don’t know about. Why is my view irrational? Aside from violating ur expectations? There is such a thing as moshiach, there is such a thing as a navi. Why do such realities shock u. To quote a source which isn’t the Rebbe:
Rav Hai Gaon said ”You should know that this was an accepted fact by all the Rishonim and not one would deny it for they would say that Hashem does signs and awesome things through the tzaddikim like He does through the prophets and He shows the tzaddikim awesome visions the way He showed them to the prophets”
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