Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha

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  • #1416582

    RSo
    Participant

    Phil quoting:

    “Chat,
    Your childish cutting-and-pasting of sources that supposedly confirm your warped views help me understand Harav Shach’s zt”l fierce opposition to the Rebbe’s Rambam campaign. He foresaw that Chabad would very simplistically learn Mishne Torah, which needs to be studied in great depth, then deliberately corrupt and misuse it to confirm their cultish dogmas.
    Truly, chacham adif minavi!”

    Aha! So even though you think Rav Shach was a chacham you admit that the Lubavitcher rebbe was a navi!

    Gotcha!

    #1416592

    RSo
    Participant

    Sechel Hayashar: “@Phil,
    (What a name for a nice Jewish boy)”

    What a pity that Sechel Hayashar is your name because I had a great shidduch for you but her father’s name is also Sechel Hayashar and there’s the problem with tzavoas Rebbi Yehudoh HaChossid.

    Oh. I didn’t realize. Sechel Hayashar is just your username not your real name. Well maybe that’s the case with Phil too…

    #1416593

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There is such a thing as moshiach, there is such a thing as a navi.

    There is also such a thing as a pickle. That doesn’t mean the Lubavicher Rebbe was a pickle.

    Even if he had said he was a pickle (and if he said it, that means there would have been a Jewish source for it, right?), he still would not have been a pickle.

    #1416598

    MoshiachChat
    Participant

    If ur not going to accept the Rebbes Torah as acceptable normative Judaism then we are done here.

    Ps. i think u mean *shach. removed Comparing the Rebbe and Rav Shach shows u truly have no idea who the Rebbe was. removed I know this from a reliable source.
    Just because u disagree with many lubavitchers on one part of Mishnah Torah doesn’t mean they don’t learn the rest of it well. How absurd.

    repaired – next time it will just be deleted

    #1416600

    MoshiachChat
    Participant

    the Rebbe is a navi or is able to be *gives sources*

    The Rebbe isn’t a navi or a pickle *just keeps saying so and gives no sources*

    #1416602

    RSo
    Participant

    There should be awards for posts that are funny while at the same time make sense and are relavant.

    Daas Yochid your pickle post gets my vote.

    And I really like Little Froggie’s word “brainsack”!

    #1416604

    MoshiachChat
    Participant

    My point with saying there is such a thing as navi is so then why be so shocked when someone claims to be one. So shocked in fact, that u won’t even read what I sent! U told me urself u didnt even read it. (U obviously don’t need to bring sources that the Lubavitcher Rebbe isn’t a pickle, the source part was meant to go on the navi aspect.)

    #1416605

    MoshiachChat
    Participant

    @Daas
    The Lubavitcher Rebbe is someone who if he said he was a pickle he could prove it to u in shaas. It’s a shame u won’t learn what he said and check his sources. I can’t supply u with everything, but I’ve given u the sources and much of it is on Hebrew books.

    #1416608

    Phil
    Participant

    RSo,

    Cute, but no cigar. Besides, I have too much respect for the memory of the Rebbe, zt”l to say he was a navi, since nowadays only a shoteh can have prophecy.

    It should be noted that when nevuah existed, a Jew who experienced prophecy in Eretz Yisrael could then experience it anywhere else in the world. Classic examples are Yonah and Yechezkel.

    #1416617

    Tom Dick n Harry
    Participant

    I see the mashichist position as kfira or bordering kfira.

    We have to believe in the 13 ikarim, one of which is bee’as haMoschiach. Now if somebody would say that Bee’as haMoschiach means eating a pickle, and therefore if you simply believe in eating pickles you have fulfilled this ikar, than he would be promoting kfira, because through this, people would no longer believe in the true meaning of bee’as haMoschiach.

    Now to say that believing in bee’as haMoschiach means to believe that a person who died in 1994 is really alive, and that fictitious being is Moschiach , means that they don’t believe in the ikar by it’s true meaning, but only by it’s nonsensical meaning. So that makes them kofrim in bee’as haMoschiach.

    #1416599

    RSo
    Participant

    Could someone please explain to me how the moderation or censorship works.

    I posted yesterday an explanation of the way I understand the concept of emunoh and it has disappeared even though it was not nasty in any way, (or at least I can’t find it) but much of the attacking and personal stuff gets through.

    Just curious.

    This?

    Reply To: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha


    #1416616

    RSo
    Participant

    I’ve been thinking about this again and I’d like to retract what I wrote earlier.

    Daas Yochid you are wrong. If the Lubavitcher rebbe would have said he was a pickle he would most certainly have been a pickle. (I know there’s a sicha somewhere about him being a carrot but I’m not sure about a pickle.)

    #1416618

    RSo
    Participant

    “The Rebbe isn’t a navi or a pickle *just keeps saying so and gives no sources*”

    I think you have convinced Moshiachat that the rebbe was both a navi and a pickle.

    #1416619

    MoshiachChat
    Participant

    @Phil
    The Rebbe goes into depth explaining that people can have nevuah and that he has nevuah. I quoted some of it. U have given ZERO arguments and simply won’t accept it because u don’t wanna and that’s absurd

    #1416621

    GAON
    Participant

    “Let’s not pretend hes a gain.bThe gaon Rav Hirshprung made fun of shach for not even knowing the yeshiva Gemaras well. I know this from a reliable source.”

    Whilst i don’t have the time to respond on all your comments. This one can’t be ignored.

    Rav Shach does not need Rav Hirshprung and certainly not yours or any other approval.
    Asides that the sefer is there for all to see, he had the approval of the TRUE Gadolei Hador. You might not like or agree with his actions, (rightfully so) but his Gadlus was attested by The Brisker Rav, The Steipler, Hagaon Rav Isser Zalmen Meltzer, Rav Aron Kotler and others.

    Based on the approbations you have been quoting, I can only imagine if your rebbe would have half of these how you would be ranting and raving…

    #1416626

    Non Political
    Participant

    There are 2 paths here.

    Path One. The Talmudai Chochamin among Chabbad will interpret the teachings of Lubavitcher Rebbe in a way that is in line with normative Judaism. They will do this even when it means saying an interpretation which is forced. They will also guide their talmidim to a more integrative approach with the rest of Klal Yisroel. They will do this because they are true Talmudai Chochamim, are amailim B’Torah, and we know that in the end the light of the Torah will bring them to good.

    Path 2 is self evident to anyone who has been following this thread.

    While this is getting worked out there is going to be good, sincere people who will be honestly confused.

    @rso
    Glad you o see your back. I want to apologize again for taking such a condescending tone in my response to your earlier post.

    #1416632

    Non Political
    Participant

    @sh

    opposition to Yidden learning Torah solely because of who the initiator was brings into question the motives of his machlokes, whether it was a machlokes Lsheim Shomayim or not.

    The Halacha is that when one is judging the actions of a Talmud Chochom one is obligated to judge his motives favorably. HaRav Shach was a Gadol by any standard we have. You are therefore obligated to judge his motives favorably. The fact that he was not infallible is besides the point. You are welcome to quote Gedolim who disagreed with his position but you do not get to question his integrity.

    #1416647

    slominer
    Participant

    “While this is getting worked out there is going to be good, sincere people who will be honestly confused.”

    This has been “getting worked out” for the past almost 25 years since the Lubavitcher Rebbe zichrona tzaddik l’vrocha’s petira. I don’t think giving it more time will much change the disputed dynamics.

    #1416649

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @np,
    “You are welcome to quote Gedolim who disagreed with his position but you do not get to question his integrity.”

    I sniff a double standard here. I don’t have time to go through all your previous posts, so if I am wrong, apologies in advance.

    #1416653

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I sniff a double standard here.

    Oh, do you? You mean the fact that you went ballistic when you thought I was questioning the Lubavicher Rebbe’s integrity, but have no problem questioning Rav Schach’s?

    You have a good sense of smell then.

    #1416656

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @moshiachchat,
    “repaired – next time it will just be deleted”
    I’m going to give you some general advice, take it or don’t. A certain degree of respect is warranted if you don’t want to get moderated, or have what you are trying to say totally dismissed. I’m going to give an extreme example here, so please bear with me all:

    Lehavdil elef alfei havdalos, if I was speaking with Christians trying to find something to agree on (perhaps to get missionaries off our backs, or whatever, it’s only an example to illustrate my point) I wouldn’t start making fun of Yoshke, I’d refer to him respectfully, while vehemently disagreeing with virtually everything that he ever said. Once you disrespect him, you lose.

    Again to clarify, I’m not comparing anyone and certainly not Talmidei Chachamim to Yoshke chas vesholom, I’m trying to bring out a point, that even when you totally disagree, respect is necessary, if only so you remain relevant. (Of course, any Rov is deserving of a certain amount of respect).
    Please don’t go crazy over my remarks, this is a flawed example, but all I could come up with now.

    #1416657

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The Lubavitcher Rebbe is someone who if he said he was a pickle he could prove it to u in shaas.

    And you would believe it.

    #1416660

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @DaasYochid,
    ” I was questioning the Lubavicher Rebbe’s integrity”
    Oh it was you. Sorry again Non Political. Yes, if you can question the Rebbes integrity, I can question Rav Shachs as well. If you won’t question his integrity, but will only give criticism, I’ll do the same.
    I was under the impression that Gedolim weren’t infallible, and questioning their integrity was not off limits.

    #1416664

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, if you can question the Rebbes integrity, I can question Rav Shachs as well.

    If you think it’s wrong, then you can’t. If you think since they’re two different people, you can, then why did you say it was a double standard?

    You have a double standard for how you apply the definition of double standard.

    #1416667

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    BTW, I didn’t question the Rebbe’s integrity. I pointed out that there are stiros between what he said in public and what he allegedly said in private. You are the one who drew the conclusion that that means he was devious, not I.

    #1416669

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @moshiachchat,
    “The Lubavitcher Rebbe is someone who if he said he was a pickle he could prove it to u in shaas.
    Daas Yochid:
    And you would believe it.”

    Oy vey how low have we fallen. Rebbe, what has happened with some of your so called Chassidim??
    How much longer will you belittle the Rebbe with your absolute claptrap, you are living a lie, and making a sheer fool of yourself and more importantly, being mevaze our Rebbe!!

    You don’t like it when others are mevaze the Rebbe, but you fail to realize that you and your ilk are the root of much of it. A misnaged couldn’t cause the harm to Lubavitch that you (plural) do without even trying!

    You walk around, in person and online, making a mockery of our holy Rebbe, spewing nonsense propaganda in his holy name! Every waking moment is dedicated to perpetuating a farce.

    When will you come to your senses and go back to Lubavitch?!
    Shuvu Bonim Shovovim!

    Ad mosai, how long will this continue?!

    #1416671

    Non Political
    Participant

    @sh
    If you can question the Rebbes integrity, I can question Rav Shachs as well. If you won’t question his integrity, but will only give criticism, I’ll do the same.
    I was under the impression that Gedolim weren’t infallible, and questioning their integrity was not off limits.

    There is a Halacha that prohibits you from questioning the integrity / motives of a Tamud Chacham. How does the fact that someone else does it make it permissible?

    Also, why do you keep equating not being infallible to a lack of integrity. This is an overt error in logic and you just repeated it twice.

    #1416672

    Non Political
    Participant

    @sh

    Notice that DY said “you thought I was questioning his integrity.

    Is this the offending post where DY questioned The Lubavitcher Rebbes integrity?

    MoshiachChat, I honestly didn’t read what you quoted. What are you trying to convince me, that he called himself a navi, moshiach, and infallible?

    Let’s say you convince me that he called himself all of the above. My conclusion would be the rational one – that he was a megalomaniac.

    You’re trying to convince us that the Rebbe was a cult leader, yet you want us to accept your beliefs as normative Judaism. It’s not very reasonable to think that we will.

    Seems that he was opposing the same erroneous interpretations of the Lubavitcher Rebbes words as you yourself do. He was making an effort (I don’t know why) to show MC the rational conclusion people would arrive at if they took his interpretations seriously.

    #1416673

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @DaasYochid,
    “I can accept Seichal Hayoshor’s approach as within normative Judaism. He feels the Rebbe was a great man, but didn’t claim all these things about himself. Sure, my mesorah about how to approach Moshiach, kiruv, learning, and other inyanim are different, but that doesn’t mean that I think his are outside of Judaism.”

    Thanks for the affirmation of my beliefs as normative Judaism. I really needed it:)
    Do you really believe that ChabadShluchas (for example) beliefs are truly outside the pale of Yiddishkait?

    #1416674

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Slominer
    This has been “getting worked out” for the past almost 25 years since the Lubavitcher Rebbe zichrona tzaddik l’vrocha’s petira. I don’t think giving it more time will much change the disputed dynamics.

    These things take time, 25 years is but a drop in the bucket. Eventually there will be closure on this issue. It’s not up to us how much time to give it.

    #1416686

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “Do you really believe that ChabadShluchas (for example) beliefs are truly outside the pale of Yiddishkait?”

    Are you really asking that? YES. For 18 pages that is the resounding consensus you have been hearing from several posters. YES

    #1416695

    MoshiachChat
    Participant

    Consensus on this page reached by ignoring majority of what I said and calling me names, yeah. What a consensus. Amazing stuff going on here. @Seichal tells me to be a living example for lubavitch while insulting me any way he can, @Phil has been nothing but absurdly rude and in the habit of attributing terrible motives to me while giving no arguments. I’m happy to apologize for Rav Shach. Trying to be the only one with some respectful dialogue is pretty hard when everyone’s ignoring everything u typed and calling u a borderline heretic and a dishonor to lubavitch and ur Rebbe. So I do apologize, but this is quite the challenge to controlling my yetzer. Hardest yetzer is fighting that geshmake u get at insulting people with a slick comment. It slipped a little on the Rav Shach comment(again I apologize).
    I’m just gonna go ahead and assume nobody gives a lick and will insult me gain next message. In which case, I’ll duck out early. Have a Gud shabbos and Moshiach now!

    #1416706

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Thanks for the affirmation of my beliefs as normative Judaism. I really needed it:)
    Do you really believe that ChabadShluchas (for example) beliefs are truly outside the pale of Yiddishkait?

    She seems very nice, and very sincere, and it pains me to say it, but yes.

    I’ll note that you asked about her, not about MoshiachChat. Are their beliefs different from each other (disregarding style of presentation)?

    #1416705

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “The gaon Rav Hirshprung made fun of Rav Shach for not even knowing the yeshiva Gemaras well”

    How does a canard such as this get past moderators on this site? This thread should be blicked for tge level of lashon hara, motsi shem ra, rechilus, sheker, ssinah and shtus it has produced. Im sure if anyone wished to adopt tge shittis esposed by anyone here, there are many places to do so. Gere, its a public chilul shem shamayim, a public bizuy talmudei chachamim and tzadikim. The owner of this website should becashamed to be the forum fir all if this garbage.

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