Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha

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  • #1408832

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “@chabadshlucha, I agree with most of want you’re saying besides one thing. “Moshiach Shebador” isn’t a halachic concept, it’s not based on the Rambam, so it’s not the greatest point to bring in an argument.”

    Correct me if I’m wondering but I don’t recall saying it is from Rambam, I said the other two are. It comes up allot in chassidus and I’ve read stories of the Baal Shem tov to that effect as well, so it is not a recent concept.

    Also I’m not arguing. I think the Litvishe world has the right to understand what we are thinking and where we disagree so I’m educating, not arguing. I feel there is a real interest for the most part as you can judge for yourself by the feedback.

    “Secondly, nowhere does it says that the משה שבדור is משיח שבדור.”

    Please look up the phrase “Nassi Hador hu haMoshiach shebador.” Nassi Hador is another way of saying Moshe Rabbeinu of the generation, just shorter:). If you still can’t find it, I’ll Google it myself and tell you an exact source, although as a fellow Lubavitcher I’d be surprised if you haven’t come across it yet.

    “Saying it will not help you prove you point. I don’t understand why you are seemingly trying to validate or legitimise beliefs that are based on emotion, not intellect through logic.”

    Certainly everything we do as Yidden is it most certainly should be sourced in emuna which is an emotion. However, especially especially as Chabad chassidim, we endeavor to bring this emuna down into the rational would so our mind can agree with it as well. And this is very very important. If you believe you are a butterfly, people will think you are crazy because that is not their experience. Some extreme people may even label you an apikoris:) but if you can prove how you are, you won’t seem silly anymore.

    I’m just giving over what I’ve taught and seen for myself. I think the world has the right to know it especially as there some people running around looking crazy because they don’t bother explaining how they got there. To the uninitiated eye btw, all Jews can look crazy too. So it’s not about how why look it’s about why. You’re welcome to disagree with me and explain how you draw a different conclusion. But I think it is high time that all lubavitchers as all Jews, should stick together, because people don’t differentiate, and if you label meshichistim crazy to the oilam you come in contact with, they’ll in turn ok at you as bring crazy for being a lubavitcher. So pirud doesn’t help anyone, achdus helps everyone. That’s what I believe and that’s why I’m here. And I know this is a Torah value, not just my belief.

    If I were trying to defend or explain it, I would simply say, that Chassidim believe that their Rebbe was the most worthy of being Moshiach, were he to come in his time. Such belief is no novelty, it’s seen in the Gemara, and in past generations there were other Chassidim who believed this about their Rebbe, (such as Vizhnitz).

    This is true. Another point to bring in eventually. But you do yo see we are a bit different, no one else goes to the lengths we do and are as passionate about it. So I though I’ll just give the inside scoop.

    To conclude, never ever, not even once did the rebber ever declare or otherwise insinuate that he was Moshiach. ( Once, Rabbi L Groner, a secretary of the Rebbe handed the Rebbe a letter which had been received and was addressed to “Moshiach”, the Rebbe said “I’ll give it to him when he comes”.

    I haven’t addressed that yet.

    That said, if someone chooses to believe that the Rebbe or any Rebbe is Moshiach, that doesn’t make him a Kofer or anything. It may be foolish to believe so after his passing, but definitely isn’t assur in any way, shape or form.

    See above as to why I think this attitude ruins things for everyone.

    #1408890

    K-cup
    Participant

    Somewhat important backround, It should be noted, the opening perakim is the Tanya establishing his take on Tzadik vetov like/ Vera love/ Beinoni on a number of stiros between a number of gemmarahs. So the ideas of yetzer hara ect.. are his explanations on aggadici gemarrahs and statements chazal made and should be analyzed as such. its based in specific statements in chazal. Chabadshlucha didn’t go into that, because its the coffee room, and some commenters seem to be assuming the tanya just said those things. Nothing to do with moshiach stuff, just the questions on Tzadik and different pesukim.

    #1408912

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha,

    The part that’s universal is that we all have a breakfast, which at it’s core, is one with Hashem

    Right, but some (Chabad) eat it before davening, while most wait until afterwards.

    #1408936

    Joseph
    Participant

    ChabadShlucha: When do you plan on answering the questions in the very first post (the OP) of this thread?

    #1408913

    twisted
    Participant

    to 770 Chabad: re your first post . Maybe you should have left out the “mamish” at the end to preserve achdus and put some distance between this and minut. A fig leaf. ynwim?

    twisted, a refugee from Chabad.

    #1408914

    Chaim Eliezer
    Participant

    It is quite common for Chassidim to believe their Rebbe qualified to be Moshiach. At the Rebbe’s levaya, a letter is read confirming the Rebbe’s choice of a successor. Thereupon his Chasidim transfer their messianic hopes to the new leader of their Chassidus.

    It is therefore deeply troubling that R’ M.M. Schneersohn did not designate a successor. Even an undisputed Moshiach such as Dovid HaMelech was a mortal man and had to choose one of his sons to continue the malchus. How could the Rebbe have been so irresponsible as to orphan his Chssidim? Is it any wonder they have been subject to troubling ideas about him?

    #1408915

    5ish
    Participant

    @chabadshlucha

    The Rebbe explicitly said the Nasi shebedor is the Moshiach shebedor, and he aknowledged that he was the Nasi. The Rebbe also explicitly said that the memaleh makom contains all of the qualities of the previous Nasi plus more. The Rebbe also referred to himself as being the last Nasi.

    The Rebbe also said Moshiach is alive in this world and it is a mitzvah to be mekusher to him.

    If somehow you believe that The Rebbe was not the last Nasi, and is therefore not by his definition Moshiach, then if you were truly a chossid of The Rebbe you would follow his directive to seek out and become a chossid of the new Nasi, who by The Rebbe’s definition is currently holding the office of Moshiach of the Generations.

    Please reconcile your above stated opinions with the fact that neither you, nor anyone accepted in mainstream Chabad, have sought out or bound yourselves to a new Rebbe.

    ?????

    #1408985

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @joseph as soon as I can while giving a thorough understanding. Unfortunately, I as am sure everyone here, cannot monitor the CR constantly to reply the minute a question is asked. I’m doing my best and definitely not procrastinating. After I address WTP questions, excellent questions if I may say so myself, I will gladly continue.

    #1408986

    GAON
    Participant

    “However, we do have the old klal of the Rambam in sefer haMorah, that logic prevails over simple pshat.

    Is there anything logical about saying that in every generation, there is a leader (or leaders) who essentially don’t have bechirah?”

    Well, to be honest, and speaking about the Rambam – the Rambam in sefer HaMorah P/2: 32 regarding נבואה calls that logic:

    “דעת המון הפתאים”

    I will quote it in full:

    דעות בני אדם בנבואה כדעותם בקדמות העולם וחידושו – אני רוצה בזה כי כמו שאלו שהתבאר אצלם מציאות האלוה יש להם שלש דעות בקדמות העולם וחידושו כחו שבארנו כן הדעות עוד בנבואה שלש. ולא אפנה לדעת אפיקורוס שהוא לא יאמין מציאות אלוה כל שכן שלא יאמין נבואה ואמנם אכון לזכרון דעות מאמין האלוה בנבואה:

    הדעת הראשון – והוא דעת המון הפתאים ממי שיאמין בנבואה וקצת המון אנשי תורתנו גם כן יאמינהו – והוא שהאלוה ית’ יבחר מי שירצה מבני אדם וישרה בו הנבואה וישלחהו – אין הפרש בין שיהיה האיש ההוא אצלם חכם או סכל רב השנים או צעיר השנים אלא שהם יתנו בו גם כן קצת טוב ותקון מדות – כי בני אדם עד עתה לא אמרו שישרה האלוה שכינתו על אדם רע אלא כשיחזירהו למוטב תחלה לפי זה הדעת:

    #1408987

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    ChabadShlucha: When do you plan on answering the questions in the very first post (the OP) of this thread?

    Well, before I answer that, we need to make sure that we have an understanding of what we mean by “question”. To facilitate this, I will present a 15 shiurim course on the subject for you lucky participants in this thread over the next week or so. Once that is completed and there are no further questions, we can address your questions. Except that since I just said there are no further questions, there will be nothing to address. Any questions?

    #1409015

    GAON
    Participant

    Sechel/Chabad:

    “@daas yochid @gaon I remember learning, Chet can mean chisaron, meaning for their level, more was expected of them, not that it was an actual aveira.”

    Well, I know that is the answer they generally give… However, as I have said, its quiet difficult to recreate the entire Pshat and literal meaning of a Pasuk.

    On the other hand, I will give you an answer ‘Al Pi Chasidus :
    (Disclaimer, I’m not Chabad ’: ) –

    Read carefully how The Magid of Mezritch explains the Chet of Avrohom Avinu in Sefer Magid DeVorov L’Yaakov – Ohr Torah” in the הוספות part — אות ג Read the footnote as well.

    Based on that, it is possible to have a Chet no matter which level you are, being that after all you are an immortal Baser V’dam. Though, the Chet is not due m’Zad haNefesh HaChiyuni, rather from the Guf, which can be very well be the way he would interpret “chet” mentioned in Kehales as well.
    I will quote:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19784&st=&pgnum=421
    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19784&st=&pgnum=422

    ויפול אברהם על פניו ויצחק, ויאמר בלבו הלבן מאה שנים יולד ואם שרה הבת תשעים שנה תלד — ומשה רבינו מסביר להם להילדים — בי כל הפירושים’ אמת הם. ואין מקרא יוצא מדי פשוטו, ואם תאמרו איך אפשר הדבר אשר אברהם יהי׳ מסתפק במאמר השם,
    תדעו אשר זהו מצד הגוף ואשר גם גוף קדוש בשר הואי

    In the footnotes:

    ..,בעת ההיא ששמעתי את השיר והזמרה דאמירת מזמורי תהלים ]של האנשים פשוטים, כפי שהראה הבעש״ט לתלמידיו החבריא קדישא[— מספר כ״ק מורנו הרב המגיד לכ״ק רבנו הזקן — הי׳ לי כעין שפיכת הנפש וגעגועים גדולים באהבה בתענוגים אשר כמוהו לא זכיתי עדיין עד אז, והפאנטאפעל שלי היו רטובים מזיעה ודמעות של תשובה פנימית מעומקא דלבא

    . …כ״ק רבנו הזקן מספר להוד כ״ק אאזמו״ר אדמו׳׳ר הרה״ק צמח צדק, אשר כ״ק מורו ורבו הרב המגיד אמר לו, אשר זמן רב היי בצער גדול על אשר הרהר אז אחרי רבו, ועשה כמה תיקונים לתקן דבר זה ולא יכול להרגיע את עצמו מדוע הרהר אחרי רבו.

    באחד הלילות ראה מחזה נעלה ונשגב — מה המחזה לא סיפר אז כ׳׳ק רבנו הזקן לכ״ק אאזמו״ר אדמו״ר הרה׳יק צמח צדק, כי אם בשבוע שקודם הסתלקותו’ סיפר לו —

    בהלכי חזרה — מספר כ״ק מורנו הרב המגיד לכ״ק רבנו הזקן — בהיכלות דגן עדן עברתי דרך היכל אחד אשר תינוקות של בית רבן יושבים ולומדים חומש, ומשה רבינו יושב בראש השלחן, כל התינוקות אשר בהיכל ההוא למדו פרשת לך, ואחד התינוקות אמר בקול רם הכתוב ויפול אברהם . . בשר הוא[כבפנים
    אז — מספר כ״ק רבנו הזקן לכ׳׳ק אאזמו״ר אדמו״ר הרה״ק צמח צדק — כשמוע כ׳׳ק מורי ורבי אשר מצד הגוף יכולים להיות כמה מחשבות והרהורים הבאים בדרך ממילא ומאיליו, הנה זה הרגיע את רוחו של כ״ק מורי ורבי נ״ע.

    #1409029

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ואין מקרא יוצא מדי פשוטו

    Can’t we just leave it at that?

    #1409030

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @avik and @chaimeliezer if you stick around to the end and follow the discussion, I think you won’t be left with these questions. If you are I’ll be happy to answer.

    @WTP:
    1. You called these concepts “chassidus 101” which means that they are true for all chassidus, and are not just Chabad/tanya tenets?

    what is unique about Chabad chassidus and why it is termed this, is because the Rebbeim too these lofty neshama and Elokus concepts, some of which we have been discussing, and made it understandable to the laymen. All other chassidus groups follow the ways of chassidus such as having a Rebbe, but don’t have a systematic understandable path of how the layman can grow in his avodas Hashem without the tzaddiks direct influence. So when I say chassidus 101 I am referring to Chabad chassidus.

    Presumably, every group will believe that their Rebbe is a tzaddik.

    There were more tzaddikim before the war, but it seems train now are in short supply as per a conversation I had with the granddaughter of another Rebbe.

    You stated that the tzaddik has the neshama of Moshe Rabbeinu, and every generation has one. But if every group has a tzaddik, then every group has its Moshe Rabbeinu? Or are some Rebbes/Tzaddikim bigger than others, and the rest are just imposters (no disrespect to any Rebbe meant, just trying to understand how this fits the bigger picture).

    Neither. Just like by Moshe Rabbeinu, there were many leaders- the 70 judges, the Princes of the Shvatim etc. who we all leaders and tzaddikim, but there was only one Moshe Rabbeinu, so to in every generation…

    Along a similar vein, when you quoted from the Rebbe that he was the 7th generation, implying that like the Avos, each Rebbe brought the shechina down one level, with the last Rebbe having the mission to complete the process and bring Mashiach, my question is: what about all the other great Tzaddikim/Rebbeim thru the generations outside of the chain of Chabad- they were not capable of this too? why exclude the Besht and the Maggid of Mezeritch and Rav Shmelke and the Noam Elimelech, just to name a famous few?

    Firstly it wasn’t just the Avos, it was the leaders of seven generations from the Avos through Moshe. Amram was one as well, I can look up the medrash or maybe seven hayashar or anyone else can fill in the others. I think it was Levi Kehas Amram, Moshe.

    2. I think you are saying that being a tzaddik is not a process a person can do himself, as you call it a gift from Hashem. It is not that someone worked on himself to get to this level, but that Hashem chooses a leader in each generation and bestows on him the level of Tzaddik. Would that be correct?

    Sort of. A person does all within his power, and once he reaches the level of beinoni and tries to also feel disgust for bad like a tzaddik, then Hashem will bestow the madreiga of tzaddik upon him.

    Does that explain the Rebbe hierarchy (in any chassidus)- how automatically a son/son-in law/ nearest relative takes over from the previous Rebbe and becomes a Tzaddik, no matter what his age or level of Torah learning?

    Firstly, it doesn’t always work that way, the Maggid of Mezritch was not physically related to the Baal Shem Tov and neither was the Baal HaTanya related to the Maggid for two examples.

    But if the son/in law merits the title he comes before everyone else.

    Secondly, I’m not sure if this is unique to Chabad, but the chassidim have to approve and accept the new Rebbe- one of the reasons no one became the new Rebbe- we haven’t found anyone of the Rebbe’s caliber or a tzaddik, to replace him.

    Hope that answers and I really enjoyed these questions

    #1409031

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @gaon thanks that’s interesting! And ties into further concepts as well… But I think it’s time to move on:)

    #1409032

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It is therefore deeply troubling that R’ M.M. Schneersohn did not designate a successor.

    He thought he was moshiach and didn’t need a succesor.

    #1409033

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    To continue:)

    After that first Maamar, the Rebbe stopped speaking about our mission and Moshiach, for the most part, and stared doing. The new ten twenty years the Rebbe spoke how we can’t be satisfied with just sitting in the beis medrash and worrying about our own spiritual growth when there is a fire of assimilation consuming our fellow Jews. We need to get out there and bring those Jews in. Instead of cutting ourselves off from the world e need to bring other Yidden back to yiddishkeit. That was the message the Rebbe pounded into his chassidim amongst many other important ones, such as how yiddishkeit is the true feminism- that one’s close to my heart:)

    Then in the tof shin mems- 80s the Rebbe started sending lots of shluchim out and starting mitzvah campaigns like giving out Shabbos candles to women, it putting on Tefillin with men. Which was unheard of by the time. The idea was every mitzvah is precious no matter what came before or follows

    #1409059

    GAON, your quotation in post #1408986 seems to have nothing to do with what you claim it’s talking about.

    #1409065

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Hope that answers

    Hope you realize that you deflected more than answered.

    But go on.

    #1409067

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Continued:

    So in nun aleph, nun beis, when this Moshiach excitement was going on, along with the hints, every chossid, from what I hear, expected the Rebbe to reveal himself as Moshiach and lead all Yidden to eretz Yisrael.

    Halfway through nun beis- 1992, the Rebbe had a stroke. After the stroke, the chassidim thought this must be an obstacle we must go through before Moshiach is revealed, so they kept up their belief and hope in the Rebbe’s words. They also would quite often burst into the song of Yechi, addressing the Rebbe as Moshiach and the Rebbe would nod his head encouraging the song. Up until gimmel tammuz, nun daled -94, no one would dare even say that maybe the Rebbe won’t get better…

    Until one day. Gimmel tammuz hit us. And there was no sicha of the Rebbe to explain what happened. (Some chassidim see a sicha said on gimmel tammuz years earlier to address this situation.)

    Here for the first time there was a split.

    Some chassidim said Look things didn’t work out according to plan, so that’s it. The games up and the Rebbe was nistalek and there must be some explanation for this but that’s it, we’re orphaned from our Rebbe and we’ll try to live by his teachings and continue in his party and keep his memory alive. These people will speak of the Rebbe in past tense etc.

    #1409081

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Then there were other chassidim who said look, the Rebbe never lied to us. The Rebbe predicted things the seemed nuts, and they all came true, such as the outcome of the Gulf war on a global level, and hundreds or maybe thousands of personal accounts of the Rebbe’s ruach hakodesh.

    So maybe it seems a bit illogical but why should we distrust what the Rebbe said now? Everything else came true, this will as well.

    These are the Meshichistim.

    Most do not run around with a yellow flag. In fact the ones who do run around with the yellow flag are mostly not yet mature bochurim from tzfas who act a bit crazy but then again, I’d much rather my teen be doing that and normalize but still be a fiery chossid when he gets older, than get into movies or other things teens do when they go a little extreme.

    #1409083

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So in nun aleph, nun beis, when this Moshiach excitement was going on, along with the hints, every chossid, from what I hear, expected the Rebbe to reveal himself as Moshiach and lead all Yidden to eretz Yisrael.

    Did he announce, on erev Yom Kippur in nun aleph, that moshiach had come and there’s no need to fast?

    #1409086

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Most chassidim though do not think the Rebbe is gone because his influence strongly lives and inspires and motivates us till today. So we won’t refer to the Rebbe as having passed on etc. And this is the definition given in the gemara for Yaakov Avinu when it says Yaakov Avinu love mes. “Ma zaro bachayim, af hu bachayim” as long as we continue the Rebbe’s work, especially the shluchim, the Rebbe lives with us. We are the Rebbe’s hands and feet. And we will keep going until our work, together with the rest of klal Yisrael- brings the geula as the Rebbe wanted so badly

    #1409093

    Avi K
    Participant

    The Rebbe never did anything that Rambam say that Mashiach will do. He did not fight wars. He did not bring Jews back to EY (in fact, Chabad is anti-aliya) , he did not build the Bet HaMikdash, he did not bring universal peace. Moreover, Rambam says in Iggeret Teiman that Mashiach will arise in EY and the Rebbe was never here in his life. Not to mention the fact that Mashiach will be a political leader and the Rebbe (unlike Bar Kochba) was not.

    #1409101

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @chabadshlucha
    “Please look up the phrase “Nassi Hador hu haMoshiach shebador.” Nassi Hador is another way of saying Moshe Rabbeinu of the generation, just shorter:). If you still can’t find it, I’ll Google it myself and tell you an exact source, although as a fellow Lubavitcher I’d be surprised if you haven’t come across it yet.”
    Obviously I have. Off hand it’s Shoftim Nun Alef.
    But the term Mosher Shebador doesn’t automatically mean Moshiach Shebador. And Moshe Shebador in the original use doesn’t mean Nassi Hador, so I’m saying don’t jump the gun..
    Secondly, please refer to want the Rebbe said on כח ניסן “אורות דתוהו בכלים בתיקון” vedai lchakima beremiza.

    #1409107

    Joseph
    Participant

    ChabadShlucha:

    “I’m not sure if this is unique to Chabad, but the chassidim have to approve and accept the new Rebbe- one of the reasons no one became the new Rebbe- we haven’t found anyone of the Rebbe’s caliber or a tzaddik, to replace him.”

    Is that the only reason the last Rebbe has no successor? Or did the Rebbe also indicate he’s Moshiach?

    “So in nun aleph, nun beis, when this Moshiach excitement was going on, along with the hints, every chossid, from what I hear, expected the Rebbe to reveal himself as Moshiach and lead all Yidden to eretz Yisrael.”

    What Moshiach excitement was going on then more than before? And why’d his Chasidim all suddenly about then expect him to announce that he’s Moshiach?

    “Most chassidim though do not think the Rebbe is gone because his influence strongly lives and inspires and motivates us till today. So we won’t refer to the Rebbe as having passed on etc.”

    What about the Besht or the Maggid or the Baal HaTanya? Their influence is gone or less than the last Rebbe so they can all be referred to as having passed on, unlike the last Rebbe?

    #1409110

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @DaasYochid,
    I don’t know where you get these sheer and utter nonsensical statements from, do they teach them in school or did you make it up? The Rebbe zy”a never said not to fast on YK. Nor did he say Moshiach is already here.

    #1409125

    GAON
    Participant

    Rand0m3x,
    your quotation in post #1408986 seems to have nothing to do with what you claim it’s talking about.”

    I won’t quote the entire Rambam, but if you really learn through the Rambam in entire, then yes, the very concept (regarding Nevuah which is to applied here) of just “picking” someone without him having to work on it is “silly”.

    #1409130

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Sechel HaYashar,

    I don’t know where you get these sheer and utter nonsensical statements from, do they teach them in school or did you make it up? The Rebbe zy”a never said not to fast on YK. Nor did he say Moshiach is already here.

    DaasYochid didn’t say he did either. The point of his question is, what exactly happened that caused the messianic fervor to increase in those specific years?

    #1409133

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha,

    So when I say chassidus 101 I am referring to Chabad chassidus.

    For the purposes of respectful interactions, it’s probably best to write out Chabad chassidus when interacting with Jews who are not Lubavitchers. If someone explained a non-Chabad idea to you and told you he was explaining Judaism to you, you’d probably be offended.

    #1409134

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @Daasyochid No way!! That can only happen when the geula occurs. Right now we are still in golus very unfortunately. For further clarification see the Cato’s meanings of Moshiach explained in my third post,I think

    #1409136

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Chaim Eliezer,

    How could the Rebbe have been so irresponsible as to orphan his Chssidim? Is it any wonder they have been subject to troubling ideas about him?

    This doesn’t make sense. We’re not talking about young children here, but grown adults, who, per Chabadshlucha and Sechel HaYashar, are as learned or more learned than other Jews.

    #1409142

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @avik there are four conditions to qualify as chezkas Moshiach as per the Rambam:
    1) descended from beis Dovid (the Rebbe was)
    2) well versed in Torah and toiling in mitzvos like Dovid his father
    3) compels all Yisrael to go in the ways of Torah and strengthens it’s breaches
    3) fights the wars of Hashem

    Then we may with assurance, consider him Moshiach.
    If he:
    1) succeeds in all the above
    2) builds the bhmk
    3) does kibutz golios
    Then he is indeed Moshiach and then he will get the entire world to serve Hashem together.

    The Rebbe definitely fulfilled the first four: he started the momentous baal teshuva movement as waged the wars of Hashem against assimilation the continuation of which is ongoing by his over 5000 shluchim. And all it takes to qualify is sincere effort, not complete success as that is the first of the conditions for Moshiach vadai

    #1409145

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t know where you get these sheer and utter nonsensical statements from

    Which statement are you referring to? Are you referring to my question (not statement) about erev YK?

    There’s a video of him saying something which sounds like that; it is touted both by meshichists to prove he is moshiach, and by antis, to prove he was delusional.

    I’m asking for CS’s take on it.

    #1409146

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @sechel hayashar ok I stand corrected on that. The exact phrase is Nassi Hador hu haMoshiach shebador, not Moshe Rabbeinu shebador hu haMoshiach shebador

    And yes I was hoping that would come up in the follow up. The Rebbe strongly urged us to do everything possible to bring Moshiach but in case someone starts getting any ideas that are not in line with Torah, the Rebbe urged this be done – and this is famous within Chabad- as “Oirois dTohu bkeilim dtikkun.”

    Oirois dTohu means the lights/energies of the worlds of Tohu which were spiritual worlds created before our world, but they crashed and shattered so to speak because the G-dly energies that animated then we’re way to strong. Like plugging an iPhone into an electricity generator. So Oirois dTohu means we need to work with extremely high energy and maybe even crazy ideas. But how?

    Bkeilim dtikkun- in ways that are acceptable within this world.

    I’ve tried to help achdus between Yidden in this thread with this phrase very much in mind

    #1409148

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @chabadshlucha,
    Who told you that ‘וילחם מלחמת ה means sending out shluchim and being mekarev Yidden? Is that the pshat in the rambam? Please read the Rambam again, with an intellectually honest outlook, and you’ll see that the Rebbe wasn’t Chezkas Moshiach. FYI, I’m a regular Lubavitcher, I do Chitas and Rambam, and I go on Mivtzoim every Friday…

    #1409149

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And all it takes to qualify is sincere effort

    So if I try, I’ll be moshiach?

    #1409168

    5ish
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha I eagerly await your answers to my questions. Obviously you would not mislead the public about The Rebbe’s teachings, so I am sure you must have gevaldig answers.

    @joseph
    The reason there is no Rebbe after The Rebbe is because The Rebbe said he is the final leader of Chabad. He said in his very first discourse that there were six generations which preceded him, i.e. The Baal Hatanya, The Mitteler Rebbe, The Tzemach Tzedek etc. and that the 7th generation is the final generation and will draw down the shechina into the lowest world and will greet moshiach.

    #1409166

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha,

    The Rebbe definitely fulfilled the first four: he started the momentous baal teshuva movement as waged the wars of Hashem against assimilation the continuation of which is ongoing by his over 5000 shluchim. And all it takes to qualify is sincere effort, not complete success as that is the first of the conditions for Moshiach vadai

    You can’t have it both ways. Did he fulfill it, and there are no longer any non-observant Jews and the enemies of our people are vanquished? Or did he not fulfill it? You can’t say he fulfilled it, but then say he did not, but sincere effort was all that was needed. For me to be a grocery shopper I have to go to the store and shop. I cannot drive halfway there and then be called a grocery shopper because I made a sincere effort to get to the store.

    #1409182

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Please read the Rambam again, with an intellectually honest outlook, and you’ll see that the Rebbe wasn’t Chezkas Moshiach.

    Of course. So why does such a high percentage of Chabad believe he is moshiach (with the prime disagreement being whether to be public about it – perhaps it’s not “Bkeilim dtikkun- in ways that are acceptable within this world”)?

    I think if Chabad would place more of a focus on regular learning (the lack of which is lamented by many old time Lubavichers), they wouldn’t twist things to fit their emotional agenda.

    #1409201

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    A lot has happened here since you answered my questions, so I will ask you to please rewind a bit. Since you enjoyed the first set, I’ll throw some more at you.
    1. You actually didn’t answer the second part of my first question, about why the line of chabad davka were the conduits to bring down the shechiina but not other greats, but just nitpicked with me using the word avos not literally to mean all 7 of our great ancestors, and not just the 3 actual Avos. If I get what you are inferring though from your other answers, the chabad zaddik is in a class of his own, he is the only Moshe in the generation, everyone else is a lower madreiga, just as zekeinim were lower than Moshe, including other great rebbeim from other lineages, even those who lived in times when tzaddikim were more abundant than they are now, as you say. If this is in fact what you are saying, it sheds light on a lot of the issues raised in the previous (closed) thread.
    2. We say “Moshe kibel Torah M’Sinai., Umesora l’Yehosua, VYehoshua L’Zekeinim ,etc.” The idea that the leadership on one person was unique to the dor that received the Torah, and then next, as Yehoshua was an extension of Moshe. But after that, it was always a group of Rabbanim/chachamim/Neviim who channeled Torah to the people. There was not one great leader. How do you reconcile this with the Nasi/Moshe B’Doro concept?
    3. You state that chabadnikim could not choose a new Rebbe because they could not find a good enough tzaddik. But based on what you said, all they need is a beinoni, who strives and hates sin, and then Hashem will gift him with the traits of being a tzaddik so that he can lead the flock. Was there no one like this in all of chabad, all striving in Avodas Hashem along the systematic understandable path that only chabad provides?

    #1409204

    Joseph
    Participant

    The following is only (somewhat) meant for humor.

    Is a Shlucha to a Shliach the same as a Rabba is to a Rabbi?

    #1409219

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Is that the only reason the last Rebbe has no successor? Or did the Rebbe also indicate he’s Moshiach?

    Yes Joseph you got my intent- ie that’s the other reason. As an aside I once asked a teacher in high school- why must the Rebbe still be there Nassi Hador and thus the Moshiach shebador? Maybe there’s a new Nassi Hador out there, not in the world of Lubavitch? She answered that by the first Maamar the Rebbe said that this is for shvii and our task is to bring Moshiach. Until we do that we’re still dor shvii with the Rebbe as our leader.

    “So in nun aleph, nun beis, when this Moshiach excitement was going on, along with the hints, every chossid, from what I hear, expected the Rebbe to reveal himself as Moshiach and lead all Yidden to eretz Yisrael.”

    What Moshiach excitement was going on then more than before? And why’d his Chasidim all suddenly about then expect him to announce that he’s Moshiach?

    Because the Rebbe was saying Oirois dTohu kind of things like look Moshiach is already here, we just need to open up our eyes.

    And much more things like that, week after week. I would quote more but since it’s not your typical statement, I won’t say things unless it’s exactly what he said. You’re welcome to look it up on Hebrew books.org under Sefer hasichos 5751 and 5752.

    But as the Rebbe himself instructed it was always bkeilim dtikkun. The Rebbe would never stand up and yell some wild crazy sounding line. There was always a very logical context to his very revolutionary ideas- usually within the context of advar Torah on the parsha.

    What about the Besht or the Maggid or the Baal HaTanya? Their influence is gone or less than the last Rebbe so they can all be referred to as having passed on, unlike the last Rebbe?

    The next Rebbe carried on their legacy and they all carried and passed down the neshama of Moshe Rabbeinu. As the Rebbe once referred to the Previous Rebbe by saying, nishmaso bi.

    #1409224

    GAON
    Participant

    Daas,

    ואין מקרא יוצא מדי פשוטו”
    Can’t we just leave it at that?”

    Well, if we leave it at that – it will be going ‘’לכתחילה אריבער 🙂
    (ask Chabad what that means)

    In any case, not always doi we apply the Klal of ואין מקרא יוצא מדי פשוטו .
    There is a known rule of ר’ סעדיה גאון in ספר אמונות ודעות

    I will quote the highlights:

    ספר אמונות ודעות, מאמר שביעי :א

    ואומר תחלה, כי מן הידוע באמתות הדברים שכל דבר שנמצא במקרא הרי הוא כפשוטו, זולתי מה שאי אפשר לפרשו כפשוטו מחמת אחת מארבע סיבות:

    …..או מפני שהחוש דוחה אותו, כעין אמרו
    ….או שהשכל דוחה אותו, כאומרו
    ….או שיש מקרא מפורש הסותרו, צריך לבאר את שאינו מפורש, כגון אמרו
    ….וכן כל מה שנאמר לנו במסורת שיש בו תנאי נפרשהו פירוש המתאים למסורת האמיתית.

    The Tanya does bring Psukim and other Chazal to back up his statement …so we need to see how it may fit into the above.

    #1409226

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “For the purposes of respectful interactions, it’s probably best to write out Chabad chassidus when interacting with Jews who are not Lubavitchers. If someone explained a non-Chabad idea to you and told you he was explaining Judaism to you, you’d probably be offended.”

    @avrammd you’re quite right I’ll have that in mind in the future. Not intentional at all.

    #1409234

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “Who told you that ‘וילחם מלחמת ה means sending out shluchim and being mekarev Yidden? Is that the pshat in the rambam? Please read the Rambam again, with an intellectually honest outlook, and you’ll see that the Rebbe wasn’t Chezkas Moshiach.”

    If I’m not mistaken there may be a sicha on it, I definitely learned that somewhere but I don’t remember the exact source unfortunately, and I would think that it it is a sicha you would have come across it. Look, when you read it it reads wars, but notice the Rambam doesn’t use a lashon like milchamos haumos, milchemes got umagog or what have you, he specifically said milchemes Hashem, and as all mefarshim, geonim etc through the Taz and Bach wrote their peirushim with ruach hakodesh, I could definitely see how this could refer to a spiritual was for Hashem. Being that you’ve seen the Rebbe express this many times when explaining the exact words Rashi chose, I’m not sure why this would surprise you?

    “FYI, I’m a regular Lubavitcher, I do Chitas and Rambam, and I go on Mivtzoim every Friday…”

    Lol this cracked me up. I don’t have any doubts on your chassidishkeit, your understanding of a Rambam has nothing to do with your chassidishkeit so really I’m sort of honored you feel the need to excuse yourself, but no need at all!

    #1409237

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @daasyochid m assuming you’re joking as Moshiach can’t be a woman

    #1409245

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @5ish I’m trying to answer the questions in order, and I don’t recall skipping yours. Can you either repost, or wait until there are no more questions and I’ll scroll through all until I find yours?

    #1409254

    GAON
    Participant

    Chabad,

    “avik there are four conditions to qualify as chezkas Moshiach as per the Rambam:
    1) descended from beis Dovid (the Rebbe was)
    2) well versed in Torah and toiling in mitzvos like Dovid his father
    3) compels all Yisrael to go in the ways of Torah and strengthens it’s breaches
    3) fights the wars of Hashem”

    The first two can be applied to many more Gadolim and is really not relevant. So we will focus on the rest.

    I will quote the Rambam in full first:

    ואם יעמוד מלך מבית דוד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצות כדוד אביו. כפי תורה שבכתב ושבעל פה. ויכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה. וילחם מלחמות ה’. הרי זה בחזקת שהוא משיח.
    אם עשה והצליח ובנה מקדש במקומו וקבץ נדחי ישראל הרי זה משיח בודאי. ויתקן את העולם כולו לעבוד את ה’ ביחד שנאמר כי אז אהפוך אל עמים שפה ברורה לקרוא כולם בשם ה’ ולעבדו שכם אחד:

    3) ויכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה

    Q: Does this apply to the Rebbe’s accomplishments ?

    Answer: He certainly does not qualify as per the ולחזק בדקה.

    ויכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה does NOT mean creating just a BT movement, it has to be כל ישראל” literal, which means including me and you and ALL Jews. And as we are discussing this, there are MANY Jews including ones that call themselves Charedim, Chassidim, Mitnagdim, etc. that are not within the qualification and category of לילך בה ולחזק בדקה, and I’m not going into the fact of Chilonim.

    Thus, by not accomplishing the above, renders the Rebbe unfit as per the above category.

    4) וילחם מלחמות ה’

    Well, I don’t see where that has been accomplished in any way. You can try apply anything to that, but anyone with some sense of Pshat knows that is not what the Rambam had in mind.

    #1409256

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @avrammd if you want to ask these kind of questions, it would be a good idea to see the Rambam in the original. It’s hilchos melachim prakim 11-12. Just to answer, it says Yilchom- as in present ongoing tense. Then if he finishes it, plus the other two conditions, then he is Moshiach vadai.

    #1409257

    yerushalmi in exile
    Participant

    If there must be a Hispashtus diModhe in every dor, it is high time you find him

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