Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha

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  • #1409268
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    ChabadShlucha,
    Let me explain:
    Rambam Hilchos Melochim Perek 11 Halacha 4:
    ואם יעמוד מלך מבית דוד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצות כדוד אביו כפי תורה שבכתב ושבעל פה, ויכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה.
    So far you can argue the Rebbe fulfilled. וילחם מלחמות ה’. הרי זה בחזקת שהוא משיח.
    This unfortunately wasn’t fulfilled in the Rebbe. אם עשה והצליח,
    (If he was successful in ‘ויכוף כל ישראל וכו )
    וניצח כל האומות שסביביו,
    (From here we see that ‘מלחמת ה is kipshuto)

    ובנה מקדש במקומו, וקבץ נדחי ישראל, הרי זה משיח בודאי. ואם לא הצליח עד כה או נהרג, בידוע שאינו זה שהבטיחה עליו תורה. והרי הוא ככל מלכי בית דוד השלמים הכשרים שמתו.

    I do not know of any sicha saying that Milchemes Hashem is in ruchniyusdike terms. That would contradict וניצח כל האומות שסביביו. Also I didn’t get your diyuk of “veyilchom” especially as it’s “veyilochaym”.

    #1409266
    CS
    Participant

    Of course. So why does such a high percentage of Chabad believe he is moshiach (with the prime disagreement being whether to be public about it – perhaps it’s not “Bkeilim dtikkun- in ways that are acceptable within this world”)?

    @daasyochid you really get it.

    I think if Chabad would place more of a focus on regular learning (the lack of which is lamented by many old time Lubavichers), they wouldn’t twist things to fit their emotional agenda

    Fake news as they say nowadays.

    Please use quotes or italics when quoting other posts. Thanks

    #1409272
    GAON
    Participant

    Chabd,

    “it says Yilchom- as in present ongoing tense”

    Yes. I know that is how all Meshichists try to imply the pshat as to fit into their agenda.

    However, אם עשה והצליח ובנה מקדש במקומו וקבץ נדחי ישראל הרי זה משיח בודאי applies to the last conditions of bes Hamikdash as Vadai” – NOT on the above “chezkas” Chezkas needs to be accomplished in fully as in ולחזק בדקה.

    What amazes me is how a highly sensitive issue like Mosheach can be decided by a few individuals and “kvetches/twists” in a Rambam!

    An issue like this should have been decided by the true Gadolei V’Poskie Hador.

    Just to illustrate how twisted the Pshat is I will quote the MABI”T on Rambam how he understands the Rambam:

    קרית ספר of the Mabit:

    אין מלך המשיח צריך לעשות אותות ומופתים אלא כשיעמוד מלך מבית דוד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצותיה וכופה את ישראל לעשות כן ולוחם מלחמות ה׳ -ועושה ומצליח– הרי זה בחזקת משיח

    It says clearly ועושה ומצליח– הרי זה בחזקת משיח i.e. that ONLY IF it has been fully accomplished. Case Closed!

    #1409273
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Yerushalmi in exile-
    perhaps they are afraid where they will find him?
    Actually, based on answers given above, (the logic is somewhat circuitous, but I think this summarizes what was presented above.) the 7th dor is not over since the mission was not yet accomplished (source: CS’s HS teacher). So the last Rebbe still holds the title of the Moshe of the Dor. The Dor is established by the Rebbe- as long as there is no new Rebbe, there is no new Dor. And as long as there is no new Dor, the last Rebbe remains the Rebbe. Besides since no one replaced him, the bit of Moshe Rabbeinu’s neshama in him was not passed on, so it remains with him. No chance for a new tzaddik, for a new Moshe/Nasi B’doro or Moshiach B’doro. wait- how can that be? No possibility of a Moshiach?
    I can finally understand why Mesichists believe the way they do, it is the natural progression of the basic concepts as presented here.

    #1409267
    hml
    Participant

    @Litvisherchossid:

    I am the mother of shluchim in remote places. You explained the fighting over control in 770 very well – but I will add, a huge part of the problem is the “rules” of the game. Imagine playing football against a team who moves the goalposts, ignores the referee and makes up its own rules as it goes along, so they change almost daily. The one constant is, there ARE no rules. Anything the team does, including violence, is perfectly respectable & even encouraged.

    This sums up the Moshichisten AKA Talibanisten. They are in the minority but they are funded by a couple of very wealthy men (one who offers every bachur a new hat & suit for Pesach IF he says Yechi!!) and some wacked out Rabbonim here & there. So they continue. The other team follows the Rebbe’s directives, which are very clear, which the Moshichisten don’t do. Don’t confuse these thugs with the facts. Oh & one other thing… most, if not all, never saw the Rebbe or listened to a sicha or maamer. Or even learned anything. They have no idea how it felt to see the Rebbe b’guf and the impact even just a look has on your neshama. I have had my own personal nissim from the Rebbe .

    #1409286
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am not chabad and just reading the comments

    Would anyone treat a Satmar this same way they are treating Chabad here

    The Satmar Rebbe also had no children or grandchildren who survived him and the succession of Satmar has not been smooth either, so that Chabad has no Rebbe is not so far fetched since there was only one grandson of the Friderecher Rebbe and he is on the outs with the rest of Chabad

    #1409321
    GAON
    Participant

    Cont. – as the above quote – for all that want to see the words of the Mabit, here is the link:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14000&st=&pgnum=603

    #1409338
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Would anyone treat a Satmar this same way they are treating Chabad here

    That is completely and utterly irelevant.

    We are not questioning Chabad because they look different, or are classified as chassidim. This is not some sort of racism, so to speak. We are questioning their beliefs, and to some extent, actions, which are not at all shared by Satmar.

    The Satmar Rov was not very fond of Chabad, and this was well before the messianism was so blatant.

    The Satmar Rov was more of a rosh kehillah than a rebbe anyhow, and certainly never declared himself leader of the entire generation, so the issue I’d succession isn’t comparable either.

    #1409365
    CS
    Participant

    “Is a Shlucha to a Shliach the same as a Rabba is to a Rabbi?”

    Not at all. Afaik, a woman cannot be a Rabbi as it is against halacha, an definitely against mesorah. Why would you get that impression may I ask?

    #1409360
    CS
    Participant

    1. You actually didn’t answer the second part of my first question, about why the line of chabad davka were the conduits to bring down the shechiina but not other greats, but just nitpicked with me using the word avos not literally to mean all 7 of our great ancestors, and not just the 3 actual Avos. If I get what you are inferring though from your other answers, the chabad zaddik is in a class of his own, he is the only Moshe in the generation, everyone else is a lower madreiga, just as zekeinim were lower than Moshe, including other great rebbeim from other lineages, even those who lived in times when tzaddikim were more abundant than they are now, as you say. If this is in fact what you are saying, it sheds light on a lot of the issues raised in the previous (closed) thread.

    Look WTP I’m with you. I also thought about that how it seems unfair that it’s all Lubavitch who were the Moshe Rabbeinu. If it was more spread out, I would be very happy.

    But thinking about it now, referring back to the visit the Baal Shem Tov made to Moshiachs heichal in shomayim, in tof kuf zayin, was that fair? All Yidden serve Hashem, why should chassidus be singled out as the wellsprings through which being spread will bring Moshiach. The Gra was an extremely holy Gaon. How come it’s not his teachings?

    But if you think about it, it’s the same question that comes up across the board: why are the Jewish people the chosen people? Especially as some of them are real rotten? Why are some Yidden Kohanim and get special privileges?

    An it’s the same answer. No we’re not better than anyone else. But this is the path that Hashem has chosen for all Yidden to serve Him with- through learning chassidus and becoming one with our neshama, our fellow Jews and our creator, and revealing the G-dly depths within every physical thing. For Hashem did not create all the worlds for the sake of spirituality, but rather so that this physical world, which seems the farthest anyone can get from Him, should discover Him within their realm. This understanding and application is the treasure chassidus gives us. And since this is the point of creation, to quote the medrash famous within Lubavitch: “Nisave Hkbh liyos Lo Yisbarech dira Btachtonim.” The point is this world, not olam haba. Because otherwise as explained in Tanya chapter 37 I believe, it would have been better for all the higher worlds not to have been created. For if the point is spirituality, what can be more spiritual than being One with Hashem?

    So no, Chabad tzaddikim are not better than any other tzaddik just as Moshe Rabbeinu wasn’t greater than Aharon his brother. He was just the one picked by Hashem to lead the Yidden with his path. And so too, Hashem sent down to this world an entirely new neshama from the era of Moshiachs times that had never come before to this world in any other gilgul, to reveal the treasures of pnimiyus haTorah. This special soul was embodied by the Alter Rebbe, the founder of Chassidus Chabad.

    So if chassidus is the path through which to bring Moshiach, it logically follows that the successive Rebbeim who followed that path would be to Moshe shebidoram.

    2. We say “Moshe kibel Torah M’Sinai., Umesora l’Yehosua, VYehoshua L’Zekeinim ,etc.” The idea that the leadership on one person was unique to the dor that received the Torah, and then next, as Yehoshua was an extension of Moshe. But after that, it was always a group of Rabbanim/chachamim/Neviim who channeled Torah to the people. There was not one great leader. How do you reconcile this with the Nasi/Moshe B’Doro concept?

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but there was always an Av beis din, or Nassi or similar office which played the role of Moshe Rabbeinu.

    3. You state that chabadnikim could not choose a new Rebbe because they could not find a good enough tzaddik. But based on what you said, all they need is a beinoni, who strives and hates sin, and then Hashem will gift him with the traits of being a tzaddik so that he can lead the flock. Was there no one like this in all of chabad, all striving in Avodas Hashem along the systematic understandable path that only chabad provides?

    Firstly I hope you understand what a beinoni is. Most people try to have beinoni moments as explained in perek yud daled of Tanya. Someone who does one aveira in fifty years is a rasha vtov lo. There are hundreds of levels within rasha vtov lo, depending on how much of his yetzer overrides his nefesh elokis (when he gives in to it). So it is a very high level to be a beinoni to put it lightly. There are some suspected beinonim within Lubavitch afaik. Obviously the only one who would really know that is Hashem and maybe the person themselves.

    But as said, the level of tzaddik is a gift given to those who have sees are really trying to not only be a beinoni but also copy tzaddik behaviors, such as truly despising bad. And as it is a gift He decides when to who and if He gives it.

    And in the meantime, no we do not know of a tzaddik within Lubavitch right now.

    #1409361
    slominer
    Participant

    <“The Satmar Rov was more of a rosh kehillah than a rebbe”>

    How so?

    #1409376
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Again I am not Chabd, but the Lubavicher Rebbe did have alot more of an influence on the generation than the Satmar did.

    Im sure many have gone to a Chabad house..I doubt many have gone to a Satmar house.

    It was Chabad that went to the Soviet Union when it was still under communism to try to save the generation

    #1409382
    Joseph
    Participant

    ChabadShlucha: That was mostly a joke. But when did wives of shluchim start using a title like Shlucha? I don’t believe they had any titles when the Rebbe was alive.

    #1409383
    CS
    Participant

    @whoever is dictating how to understand the Rambam: look this isn’t my expertise, and as nashim daaton Kalos, I think I’ll hand over this nitty gritty stuff to the chabad males out there:) and I’m sure there are men that can explain this stuff- just they may be found in the nearest Chabad yeshiva near you (excluding Detroit and Chicago which are known as non meshichist to the fullest degree.) And they probably won’t be on this CR forum. Not trying to cop out- my strength as a woman is binah, not this nitty gritty compare and contrast on details that done make a major difference to my life:)

    Of course if you really can’t do that and it really really bothers you, lmk and I’ll do my best to call one of these amazing rabbis and get back to you:)

    #1409384
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    A comparison was made before inadvertantly between the Lubavicher Rebbe and Rav Elyshiv. They were different figures. Rav Elyshiv was a Posek not a leader (he had no Yeshiva and wrote no Sefarim) He was a someone to learn with. The Lubavicher Rebbe was more of a leader in the sense he led people to do things via speeches and deeds . Im not sure if I am being clear on the difference.

    Maybe comparing Rav Elyshiv to Rav Kotler might make it easier to compare, there would be no Lakewood without Rav Kotler and in that sense Rav Kotler was closer to the Lubavicher Rebbe than Rav Elyshiv

    #1409389
    CS
    Participant

    @WTP glad you get it and really all of this is predicated on you knowing about the Rebbe, learning a bit about who he is and represents. And maybe watching some of the my encounters with all types of Yidden talking about how the Rebbe inspired an affected them. Do you know R Baruch Ber cried when the Rebbe gently refused his offer to become his top talmid and the next leading gadol in the Litvishe world? So yeah if it was a regular person like you it me, I would say na I can’t believe that, there’s some personal agenda at hand. But knowing the Rebbe, and I know the Rebbe even though I was born three months before gimmel tammuz, I got my brachos to get married, go on shlichus etc. It’s a neshama connection. So knowing the Rebbe it makes sense. Otherwise, nothing makes sense

    #1409391
    Joseph
    Participant

    ZD: The Lubavitcher Rebbe zt’l had a more positive influence on the non-frum than Satmar world while the Satmar Rebbe zt’l had a more positive influence on the frum world than Lubavitch. The Satmar Rebbe is the reason you see Yidden in America unashamedly walking in public clearly dressed Jewish. He rebuilt European Chasidus in America.

    #1409414
    CS
    Participant

    @Joseph actually this may come as a surprise but if the title shlucha did not come from the Rebbe himself, it was definitely Rebbe inspired. The Rebbe constantly told the young women of the couples he sent out that they shouldn’t only see themselves as the rabbis wife, but as a full partner to their husband’s shlichus. In fact, the Rebbe said that the women need to do their own unique shlichus with the women just like it was with Avrahom avinu and Sara Imeinu- Avrahom migayer es hoanashim vSara mgayeres es hanoshim. Equal partners and equal shluchim. The Rebbe advocated putting family and children first, but as much as possible to reach out with shlichus activities to other women and start their own programs.

    If you’d like to hear more on this, you’re welcome to start a feminism/yiddishkeit/Rebbe thread:):)

    2) actually the Rebbe started the lag baomer parades to encourage Jewish pride in the 1950s I think, because people where living in a ghetto mentality where they were ashamed to be seen in the world looking Jewish…

    #1409416
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    You should have known that it was just a matter of ie before some of the usual CR suspects would be comparing those chabadniks who believe the Rebbe may retun a moishiach to Jews for Jesus.

    #1409435
    CS
    Participant

    @avik going through the posts now I see why I didn’t address your question, because it looks like it’s meant lhachis, not a serious question at all. I’m sure if you’ve read this thread, you’d have your answer. I’m out to answer legitimate questions not people looking for a fight. Hope this clarifies

    #1409436
    CS
    Participant

    Are we all clear? Any further questions?

    #1409440
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @ChabadShlucha,
    As a Lubavitcher male, I have never heard these diyukim in Rambam from any respected figure in a Yeshiva. I suspect it’s just parroted by women and some bochurim. And don’t use noshim datan kalos as a cop out, if you sit down and actually try understand it without any preconceived notions you will get to the truth.
    It’s hard for me to fully explain everything I want here, in person would be better, but of course, that’s not happening.

    #1409453
    CS
    Participant

    @ sechel hayashar ha I love this! Such hp! I’m in a different time zone, so trying to fall asleep and all of a sudden it hits me where those pshatim in Rambam are from! I learned it as part of the inyonei geula uMoshiach class in high school with guess who?

    #1409449
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @ChabadShlucha,
    What you said regarding Detroit and Chicago reveals alot about your views on Meshichistim. Just realize, no matter how you try explain it, no one here will become convinced. Aderabe, they’ll hate us more for it.

    #1409459
    CS
    Participant

    Rabbi Mann!!! Of Toronto! Now this Rabbi Mann is a real chossid, yorei shomayim and lamdan, possibly even a beinoni. Honestly. Hes a Yerushalmi lubavitcher and brilliant brilliant. Don’t know if this means anything but he was the only one able to answer certain questions I had in reconciling different concepts in chassidus and he blew me away with his ability to explain complicated concepts in a very uncomplicated way. That’s why my first conviction was that it must be a sicha- anything he says is heavily sourced.

    An yeah I shouldn’t have copped out. I got a kick out of using the daaton Kalos line though:) and also it really is harder for me to defend a position based on nitty gritty and not a deep understanding so it is true. So it got me like a lightning bolt that I remembered who it was and then I saw your last post that it couldn’t have possibly been anyone other than a woman or bachur. Thought that was hilarious. But yeah there you have it. And btw who would you think would teach me the nitty gritty if not a man lol?

    #1409460
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @ChabadShlucha,
    Probably with R Shloma Majesky or the like.

    #1409461
    GAON
    Participant

    Sechel,

    “As a Lubavitcher male, I have never heard these diyukim in Rambam from any respected figure in a Yeshiva”

    FYI – it has indeed been circulating in all Chabad for YEARS . Don’t blame Shlucha – she is repeating what she actually heard, and so have I heard the very same “diyukim” — many times.

    Is Rav SD Wolpo respected enough?!

    Yes, he published an entire book on this Mosheach subject..(I received it once from a Sholiach in Israel)

    #1409463
    CS
    Participant

    @ sechel hayashar actually it reveals more about who I married…

    Anyhow I don’t see why anyone has to hate anyone. We are having a very nice learned discussion here and not hating each other with the exception of like half a percent that you’ll find anywhere. As long as it’s based on Torah, there is nothing to hate we can just have different opinions and that’s just fine. It’s even a Torah value- Shivim panim lTorah, ain deioseihem shavos… So let’s just keep everything in the spirit of Ahavas Yisrael. I think that said more than anything else.

    #1409468
    CS
    Participant

    But regardless of anyone’s personal views in light of the gimmel tammuz difficulties, this I think we can all agree on: the main thing is to do everything everything everything we can do to bring Moshiach! And no matter who the Lubavitcher is, everyone will agree that this whole is the Rebbe gonna be Moshiach question is all really a side point and the definite main emphasis should be to bring Moshiach with Oirois dTohu bkeilim dtikkun. So in the vein of the Rebbe we need to constantly ask ourselves what are we doing to bring Moshiach here? You’re going in mivtzoim, great and as the Rebbe would say, keep adding! As for me I’m trying to raise chassidim of the Rebbe and run several programs that add to making this world Dirah Noeh for Hashem. And I keep asking myself and looking out to do more. This we can agree on sechel hayashar, correct?

    #1409471
    CS
    Participant

    And another really important thing we should all agree on I’d the importance of learning inyonei moshiach uGeula on a constant basis. Otherwise, how will we be excited to bring Moshiach and wrap our whole lives around this if we don’t even know what we’re working for? And on a continual basis to keep the chayus going. The Rebbe specifically asked us for this. Anyhow there is plenty to agree on in this vein… Lchaim.

    #1409478
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    But regardless of anyone’s personal views in light of the gimmel tammuz difficulties, this I think we can all agree on: the main thing is to do everything everything everything we can do to bring Moshiach!

    If you mean all Lubavichers when you say, “we”, I have nothing to say…

    If however you mean everyone, then no, we cannot agree that that’s the focus. Sure, we all daven and hope for Moshiach, but we do mitzvos and learn Torah not because it will bring Moshiach, but because that’s the ratzon and tzivui of Hashem.

    #1409483
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @DaasYochid,
    I’m sure you know that תכלית הבריאה is ימות המשיח??

    #1409480
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @Gaon,
    In all my years of Yeshiva, we never had a shiur by anyone clarifying these things or twisting Rambams. That’s something more commonplace by girls. Secondly, regarding SB Volpa, the Rebbe didn’t allow him to publish his book, in fact the Rebbe went so far as to tell him never to have anything to do with Moshiach inyanim anymore. Unfortunately, he took advantage of the Rebbes stroke, and went ahead with it. He is a big talmid chochom, but loves to twist and convolute things.
    @ChabadShlucha,
    I’m not well acquainted with R Mann, so I can’t comment on his integrity. I am surprised that if you’re starting with diyukim in Rambam you don’t mention the well known אם נהרג one. That’s been going around for a long time.
    Also, I’m curious to know what questions in Chassidus you asked him that no one else could answer.

    #1409489
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @ChabadShlucha,
    “This we can agree on sechel hayashar, correct?”
    We most definitely can agree on that. In fact there’s a Ksav Yad from the Rebbe to a similar effect. I would upload it if I could. The one of
    אין שום ענין לזהות את המשיח…
    I’ll see if I can find the full loshon.

    #1409502
    Put down the gun
    Participant

    They believe he’s moshiach? So what? The gemara brings instances that talmidim argued whose rosh yeshiva is most worthy to be moshiach. But he’s dead? The gemara gives an option for the Messiah to arise from the dead. Crazy? Not so-called mainstream Jewish tradition? Ok… We all agree. They believe that he fits the halachik criteria of rambam and you know 100 percent it’s a perversion of pshat in rambam? So go argue out pshat in Rambam! Is this the first machlokes in Jewish history?! Oh and it seems to me that daas yochid has a gun and just shooting it with his eyes closed. But the thread in general is very stimulating.

    #1409497
    litvisherchossid
    Participant

    I’m not sure if anyone is expecting to learn anything new here but in case you haven’t understood yet, one thing you should’ve learned by now is that there are answers for everything…
    You are asking questions to someone who believes in something specific. You will only get answers based on what they believe.
    Anyway the issue isn’t whether the Rebbe is Moshiach or not we will know when Moshiach comes. Besides didn’t the Rebbe deny in a few instances? Such as there was a reporter who asked questions of when the Rebbe is coming to Israel, and when being given an answer of “when Moshiach comes” she said you are Moshiach. So the Rebbe said I am not. Also the letter that was sent to the Rebbe addressed as Moshiach and it was not accepted as the sender thought it would be?
    How about the time when some kfar chabad wanted to write a piece of Rebbe is Moshiach, didn’t Rebbe say something about them taking a knife to
    And a few more instances I think you can check Telushkins book or online. Did these things happen? I am only stating what I read or heard.
    Lubavitchers hated the end to Telushkins book btw I definitely heard that firsthand.

    And besides for that the only problem is that due to all this lubavitchers raise their head way high and are “mezalzel” towards everyone else.

    You have nice things that you do? Great. Also many others do great things. But don’t spoil it by looking down upon others and lecturing others when you have things to fix as well, and probably not better than any other groups of Yidden.

    And if anyone learns Tanya don’t be like ” see they don’t believe their own books and want to get closer to chabad”. That’s pretty low. They aren’t trying to get closer to chabad they are only learning Torah. Your welcome to learn any works of Torah as well it’s just you consider it assur. You are also not expected to sing other’s niggunim, but you expect everyone to sing yours since only others can appreciate your minhagim, but never Chas v’shalom the other way around.
    That’s what really irks me. And many others too.

    #1409514
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    @DaasYochid,
    I’m sure you know that תכלית הבריאה is ימות המשיח??

    I know that the baal haTanya says it, but that doesn’t change the fact that our mission is to serve the Ribono Shel Olam, not to bring Moshiach, although that will certainly happen if we serve Him well enough.

    #1409516
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Wow, someone made a screen name just for me. I’m honored.

    🔫

    #1409521
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @DaasYochid,
    The Aibershter wants us to serve him. He also wants us to fulfill the ultimate purpose of creation, Yemos Hamoshiach, when He will be revealed to all, and everyone will serve him, and all of Torah will be applicable. I think you should read Rambam Hilchos Melochim for more info. This isn’t a concept unique to Chabad, it’s quite universal.

    #1409522
    RSo
    Participant

    Sorry but I still can’t find where it says Nasi hador hu hamoshiach shebedor or anything like it. Can someone please give me an EXACT source?

    Also from what I’ve read so far the Lubavitch rebbes are the Moshe Rabbeinus of the dor because that’s what they said. Did I miss something here?

    And another thing: the Tikkunei Zohar (112a) says that the ispashtuso of Moshe is in each generation “in each tzaddik and chochom who learn Torah up to [the number] 600,000”. So why does ChabadShlucha say there is only one person in each generation?

    #1409523
    big deal
    Participant

    I don’t get it. Why didn’t he hold on to the handkerchief besof yamav? He would never have passed.

    #1409535
    RSo
    Participant

    big deal, maybe that’s why he had the stroke first. Hashem wanted him to pass away so He made it impossible for him to hold the handkerchief.

    #1409537
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    He also wants us to fulfill the ultimate purpose of creation, Yemos Hamoshiach, when He will be revealed to all, and everyone will serve him, and all of Torah will be applicable.

    That’s His job. Our job is to follow the Torah.

    Of course the concept of Moshiach, and iur belief in his coming, is universal. The obsession with it isn’t.

    My daughter was in camp, and met girls from a Chabad camp. They were discussing the camp themes for the summer. When my daughter told them what their theme was (I forgot what it was), the Chabad girls gave her a puzzled look and asked, “What does that have to do with Moshiach?”

    So yes, we say Ani Ma’amin, and daven multiple times a day for Moshiach,band yearn for the day when umol’oh ha’aretz deoh es Hashem, but it’s not to the exclusion of everything else in Yiddishkeit the way it seems to be in Chabad.

    If you think that level of obsession is universal, you need to see other Yidden more often.

    #1409540
    big deal
    Participant

    They could’ve tied it to him.

    #1409541
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ואם יעמוד מלך מבית דוד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצות כדוד אביו כפי תורה שבכתב ושבעל פה, ויכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה.
    So far you can argue the Rebbe fulfilled.

    You’re kidding, right? The Rebbe forced all Yidden to follow the Torah? Could have fooled me.

    #1409546
    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    SMF63; Shabsai Tzvi openly declared or accepted the declaration of Nosson of Azah that he was Moshiach. He was initially accepted by wide swaths of klal Yisroel. When he later openly was over isurei kares and then converted to Islam it was clear to all that he was a moshiach sheker. There exists until this day in Turkey a group called the Donmeh who still believe in him. Because of certain secret rites they engage in, they are pesulei kahal and are lost to klal Yisroel.

    #1409553
    Put down the gun
    Participant

    Big deal. Assuming that the reason given by lubavitchers why the rebbe would hold a handkercheif is correct and assuming that big deal is asking a question seriously, I would say that there is big difference btw klois hanefesh= ecstasy of the SOUL ,that the neshama escapes the body before the proper time (like Nadav and avihu, the Torah says that their bodies remained intact and Rashi says that Moshe said that they were greater than him and aharon), and the actual time that is given for the BODY to pass away.

    #1409549
    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    DaasYochid; re your earlier post that “So the Rebbe declared himself Moshiach on day one”
    You have an excellent point there. When the Brisker Rav zt”l was shown that maamar Bosi Legani, he said “Der mench red zich ayn az er iz Moshiach”

    #1409550
    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    There is a vort that I heard which is attributed to either the Sfas Emes of Ger ztl or the Ahavas Yisroel of Viznitz ztl on the posuk ” B’achris hayomim ho’emes nederes” which should be told to all Lubavichers and anyone else with a hashkafa superiority complex.
    “Yeder Tzadik bakumt a giluy fun himmel az zayn derech is di richtige derech, a kluger Tzadik farshteit az yeder Tzadik bakumt di zelbe giluy” ! Every Tzadik receives a revelation from shomayim that his path is the correct path, a wise Tzadik understands that every Tzadik receives the same revelation!

    #1409556
    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @DaasYochid,
    Your are truly a fine specimen of a misnaged. I honestly thought they were extinct, but it lives on within you.

    “the Chabad girls gave her a puzzled look and asked, “What does that have to do with Moshiach?” ”
    That anecdote doesn’t ring true. I attended many Chabad camps, and we had many different themes, not all based on Moshiach. And even if this did happen, is the innocence of a young girl who thinks that everyone else is like her so so terrible?
    Secondly:
    “but it’s not to the exclusion of everything else in Yiddishkeit the way it seems to be in Chabad.”
    In what way does our belief (or as you so derisively call it “obsession”) in Moshiach exclude any part of Yiddishkait?
    On the contrary, we strengthen Yiddishkait all over the world, thereby hastening the coming of Moshiach.
    How many Yidden keep Shabbos because of our efforts?
    How many put on Tefilin?
    How many keep Kashrus?
    How many children were born בקדושה?
    How many hours of Torah were learned?
    How many tayere Yiddishe kinder are learning kometz Alef oh?
    To suggest that fervent belief in Moshiach excludes any part of Yiddishkait is patently absurd.
    And who helps you keep kosher? How much of the food you eat is supervised my Chabad Shluchim serving in “ek velt”
    The OU and OK as well as many others heavily rely on our Shluchim.

    Thirdly:
    “You’re kidding, right? The Rebbe forced all Yidden to follow the Torah? Could have fooled me.”

    I didn’t say he did, I clearly used the word argue, ie, for arguments sake. Meaning, that even if the Rebbe did force everyone to keep Torah Umitzvos, that still wouldn’t make him Chezkas Moshiach.
    Finally, I’ll conclude with a Rambam:
    וכל מי שאינו מאמין בו, או מי שאינו מחכה לביאתו, לא בשאר נביאים בלבד הוא כופר, אלא בתורה ובמשה רבינו.
    (Hilchos Melochim Perek 11 Halacha 1)

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