May 4, 2020 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1857001Reb EliezerParticipant
In the News, when making a minyan, this is the way to behave. See https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1856652/quebec-chassidish-familys-thoughtfulness-touches-non-jewish-neighbors.htmlMay 5, 2020 8:50 am at 8:50 am #1857076
Meseches Horayos, first sugya.
1) If one does not take the time to know the basic concepts, how can he get a clear answer? Once we take the responsibility to self educate seriously, we can ask for further guidance.
2) I have a designated room to daven & learn there. Consequently, I cannot sleep there now. We lose the makom m’yuchid l’tfillah whenever we daven outside.
3) Ruling that we are allowed to make such a minyan, is not even a hint that this is t’fillah b’tzibbur.
4) We are allowed to do it b’shas hadchak. In certain communities there is a literal d’chak every Shabbos.
5) My main question is from a Torah (not medical) perspective, did anyone ask if we should do this?
6) Torah and Ratzon are very different. Why are you equting them?
7) Were these minyanim formed for the will of Hashem, or the will of those who do not want to face this trying time head on? Most people who insisted on a minyan at all costs, would insist that it is better to daven alone than with an unconventional minyan.May 5, 2020 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1857311
1) thats not always true. a competent rav will make sure he has all the facts straight, before giving a psak. if the shoel is asking for explanation he can prob find a competent rav that would gladly do that for him too.
2)are u paskening that the spot on a porch cant have a din of meyuchid for tfillah?
3)true. but here we know that the facts are there are many gedolay achronim that view it as a halachick tzibbur.
4)ok feel free to consult a rav if what u deem as dchak shtims with the precedents in halacha that shed insight on what is cosidered dchak.
5)in my circles we are consulting with our poskim often to know exactly what we shud do about this ver sensitive shayla that deals with real shaylos of many brachos levatala as well as the potential to make many minyanim which is obviously a very good incentive.
6)the torah is Hashems transmittion to us of His ratzon of how we should act.
7)i agree there are probably many biases that cud arise in the discussion of this shayla. we find that people put a lot more emotional stock and effort into doing certain mitzvos that may be not nearly as important as others that they do not do. this is why we consult with educated outside opinions who can guide us to do the things that we will gain the most from, while they may not be the things we would feel is the best thing to do. at the same time i would never trust a person who never had any emotional chashivos for minyan, because he may be biased to say that he could sleep until ten for the next month missing minyan without a guilty conscience.May 5, 2020 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1857396
I suspect you know most of my response. Well, here it is.
1) Agreed. But that is not a defense for a public question with people yelling from both sides.
2)If it would be a makom m’yuchid lt’fillah than it should not be used for a direct entrance to the house. Or as a place for the children to play. This is a matter of fact, not p’sak.
3) Tzibbur is a metziyus, not an halachik creation. I think this is the root of our disagreement.
4) I would not feel free. there will be backlash from those who supported it over Yom Tov. See number 7.
5) “what we should do” The question to ask is should we have gone into this topic, or put our mental resources elsewhere. There was a lot of confusion at the time. People did not know that you cannot join your porch minyan in quarantine.
6) Ikkur chasser min hasefer. But it sounds like we agree on this one.
7) My question is, why was minyanim so polarizing? Like we must find a way to have a minyan, was countered with we must shut down every minyan at all costs. Maybe in hindsight everyone could realize that it was not a big question. A better one would have been, how can we keep tabs on (old) people living alone at all costs.May 5, 2020 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #1857473
I’ll address what you consider the root of our disagreement in number 3.
many times we look at a meztius in front of us and need the lenses of halacha to tell us what sort of mestius it is. no one is creating anything, we are just trying to determine if the ten people constitute a tzibbur or are they not metzuraf and we are looking at ten yechidim. in this situation there is a machlokes as to what metzius we are looking at, which lead to a nidon of when the proper thing is to follow the machmirim and when the proper thing to do is follow the meikilim. For that we consult our with manhigim.
4) if u have genuine halachik basis for something I don’t know why youd feel threatened by backlash that claim to have halachick basis to argue, asking shaylas is part of life.
my general motivation in this conversation was to try to help by giving over the das torah I was hearing on this topic and I hope I was able to do so.May 7, 2020 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1858586
The big discussion in the poskim is if they all count to one minyan, not if they join to form a tzibbur. For me that represents the disconnect taking place here and in the real world. We want other Jews To be counted on our side (minyan), but we have no interest to join with so that their concerns should be our concerns (tzibbur).May 8, 2020 11:57 am at 11:57 am #1858779
I’ve clearly been using the word tzibbur in a halkchik sense, to mean minyan. secondly, please speak for yourself i hope i didnt express any lack of concern for other peoples concerns in the greater jewish tzibbur. obviously the guidance by our manhigim in making these minyanim took all the concerns, halachik and hashkafik into account. what other side are u even referring to???May 13, 2020 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1860456
I was not speaking about you. On the contrary you have been very fair minded. It played out on this thread, and even more in the real world, a pro/anti minyan dispute. It is lost on me why this became the issue of the day. Yidden took it as a public issue how others should cope with shuls being closed. First comfort my fearful, heal my sick, and comfort my mourners. Then, invite me to daven with you. The way things happened is a serious reproach to how we understand the idea behind the tzibbur. What is a minyan according to halacha is not an excuse.May 18, 2020 11:34 am at 11:34 am #1861810
It looks like we will have our shuls open for shevous as per Gov. Cuomo, what would the anti minyanairs now that the dina dmalchusa is off the tableMay 18, 2020 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #1861952
We will never get the chance to ask our Rabbonim if we SHOULD daven alone, or together.May 18, 2020 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #1862023
Yes you can, action speaks louder the words, if your Rav believes he should open he will and otherwise he wonts.May 19, 2020 9:46 am at 9:46 am #1862139Reb EliezerParticipant
See the reason for the lack of minyanim in shuls https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1862084/hagaon-harav-chaim-kanievsky-this-is-why-weve-been-driven-out-from-our-shuls.htmlMay 19, 2020 9:52 am at 9:52 am #1862127
I posed the question about davening at home, and was told Kol Hakovod! The Rosh Yeshivos and Rabbonim who have very busy schedules daven in private often. Those that deem it a serious risk will still daven at home. There is not much to say. Many shuls are not as beneficial as they should be. But what is there to do? Maybe we could daven.May 19, 2020 11:41 am at 11:41 am #1862152
I noticed the miyanim are getting bigger and bigger by the day, so I guess its no longer an issueMay 20, 2020 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1862754
Starting tomorrow miyanim are legal in NYSMay 27, 2020 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1865584
Now that this issue is behind us, can we agree that it was over blown? Like, if your neighbors made a minyan outside with precautions, you do not have to fight with them. And, this that many yidden did not have a minyan for a month or two, is not from the ten worst things of this pandemic.May 28, 2020 8:54 am at 8:54 am #1865660
@n0m I always said it was overblown, however I am afraid bad feelings would linger for a long time, on my block we had people who davened in indoor miyanim, people who daven in outdoor minyanim and people who daven beyichus yet we all respected each others decisions, the problem is when you have agitators who call people names for disagreeing with his viewpoint, people calling police on others, it took sinah to a whole new level
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