Minyanim Legal in New York starting tomorrow
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- This topic has 61 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 3 years ago by n0mesorah.
May 20, 2020 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #1862712
Maximum of ten people. Which effectively also means men only. This will probably be the rule going through Shavuos.
Is it safe to conduct, even though it is legal?
When will your Minyan restart? When will you start attending?
How will people have sufficient places to make enough minyanim of ten people, only, each?May 20, 2020 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #1862907
Is it safe to conduct, even though it is legal? I am sure there will be medical professionals who say no but others will say yes
When will your Minyan restart? When will you start attending?Tomorrow, tomorrow
How will people have sufficient places to make enough minyanim of ten people, only, each? That will depend on how many people actually show up.May 20, 2020 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #1862909
our shul and just about all shuls in Monsey have or will reopened into smaller minyanim, for example downstairs, ezras nashim etc, I hear the most of Brooklyn will reopen and almost all of the 5 towns will remain closedMay 21, 2020 12:07 am at 12:07 am #1862921
Will 5 Towns stay closed until there’s a vaccine?May 21, 2020 9:17 am at 9:17 am #1862981
Joseph: One of the members of the vaad o the five towns is an epidemelogist. His opinion holds more weight than anyone in the CR.May 21, 2020 9:20 am at 9:20 am #1862986
Neh then they will worry about the side effects of the vaccineMay 21, 2020 9:24 am at 9:24 am #1863032
I am a Professor of Epidemiology and Population Health.May 21, 2020 9:24 am at 9:24 am #1863016
As of yesterday evening there was NO timeline published for the 5T and Long Island.
For those who are going back for their first davening b’tzibur since March, will you bench gomel during your first Aliyah?May 21, 2020 10:51 am at 10:51 am #1863057
@lower tution, the vaad of 5 towns is a kashut supervision agencyMay 21, 2020 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #1863156
GH: No, My Rov stated only someone who was hospitalized has to bentch gomel.May 21, 2020 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #1863180MosheFromMidwoodParticipant
Would the epidemiologist please explain the danger if everyone attending employs safeguards of masks, gloves and distancing?May 21, 2020 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #1863189
People will be more careful now. Those who are sick will stay home. Will the coffee rooms be open?May 21, 2020 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1863200
Lowertuiition: Thank you. Perhaps we should all find some way of acknowledging our good fortune of having come through Round 1 in good health (assunming that is the case) while never losing sight of what has been lost to the tzibur in terms of the almost nightly reports here on YWN of tragedy after tragedy within the frum community .May 21, 2020 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1863214
With minyanim limited to exactly ten people, how can the gabbai most politely inform someone who it is a sofek whether he’s kosher to be counted as part of the ten, that there’s no room for him?May 21, 2020 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1863232ayidwhoistryingParticipant
A few shuls in the 5 towns are opening this shabbosMay 21, 2020 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #1863238YW Moderator-29 👨💻Moderator
Regarding the deleted post:
Don’t start peddling hate. That was unprovoked and unnecessary. Please use your seclusion more productively, thank you.May 21, 2020 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #1863246
“Would the epidemiologist please explain the danger if everyone attending employs safeguards of masks, gloves and distancing?”
What follows is educated opinion, not backed up by rigorous research. There is still a lot we don’t know.
First of all, gloves are a particularly bad idea. Better to use hand sanitizer. I carry it around everywhere. I use it whenever I touch something. If you don’t use your local eruv and your rav does not approve of carrying it outside of an eruv you might want to stay home on Shabbat.
Masks don’t offer as much protection as people think. They do help to protect people from you if you are infected. The N95 mask is best but they may not be easy to obtain, and they aren’t always easy to fit.
The six feet distance may be too short, particularly if people are speaking or singing loudly, or coughing.
The shuls themselves may have ventilation systems that could spread the disease; it is possible to clean and disinfect them but it is quite expensive.
In my neighborhood, every shul is packed to the gills every Shabbat. We would have to massively increase the number of minyans if we were to allow people to maintain social distance. And the ventilation systems recycle the air, as mentioned above.
What follows is fact, not opinion:
We still have a lot of coronavirus disease, although our social distancing really did bend the curve. Montefiore Medical Center still had 191 hospitalized COVID-19 patients as of yesterday, but that was down from a peak of 1,148. New admissions dropped from 205 down to 15. But that is still fifteen people getting sick enough to be admitted to a hospital. And some suburban hospitals are NOT seeing a decline in admissions over the past few weeks.
Two resources I would recommend are the nightly videos by Dr. Stuart Ditchek, available on his Facebook page, and the statement by the Orthodox Union and Rabbinical Council of America updated today, available on the Facebook page of the Rabbinical Council of America.May 21, 2020 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1863242ubiquitinParticipant
“Would the epidemiologist please explain the danger if everyone attending employs safeguards of masks, gloves and distancing?”
Joseph answered your question “How can the gabbai most politely inform someone who it is a sofek whether he’s kosher to be counted as part of the ten, that there’s no room for him?”
People are sending around a video from Rav Asher Weisss that the virus isnt gone etc.
It surprises me that people don’t realize this. (almost) no virus is ever gone .The virus that killed millions in 1918 is STILL around killing people from time to time. In 100 years from now as some other epidemic sweeps the globe people will say the same Covid 19, the one they all get vaccines for (yearly?) .
In theory if people wear masks perfectly sanitize well dont touch shared items etc then no it shouldn’t spread. BUT the reality that it is impossible to keep all of that, and it will spread and more people will get it and some of them will die.
Hopefully not many since most of us have been exposed and have antibodies, but most is not all.
I am not an epidemiologist, but I dont see how the above could possibly be in dispute.
that is the straightforward part.
The harder part is what level of risk do we tolerate? to me it seems the risk is low enough that reopening shuls is warranted. but I am not a posek, so I am not willing to make that decision (not that anybody asked me)May 21, 2020 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #1863390A Yid 2.0Participant
Moshe From Midwood, most respectfully, the sad fact is, that even during the worst days in the beginning & over Pesach, although the heavily monitored measures, eg. Minyonim were mostly observed, the most important things like 6ft & masks/gloves were never observed by MANY (not all, but way too many) in many of or neighborhoods. During the worst days, people were in grocery stores without masks, walking our main avenues coughing in bypasses faces without masks, spitting into phones as they walked down busy sidewalks, children in stores touching food & putting it back etc., if you live in Midwood you know the drill.
So, the sad fact is that far too many people in many of our neighborhoods, never observed social distancing even during the worst days of the crisis.
Although you perhaps recovered or never had it, think of vulnerable people who still may become ill when we all rush back to pre-Covid days tomorrow, as if the crisis were entirely over. Which it isn’t.
I shall defer to the wise words of the epidemiologist.May 21, 2020 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #1863438
@a yid2.0 There is a island off the coast of New Zeeland with self contained bunkers if your interestedMay 22, 2020 9:54 am at 9:54 am #1863514Bocher from LkwdParticipant
When the ‘experts’ say that even minyanim on separate porches can’t be done it’s time to realize where their priorities lieMay 22, 2020 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1863654
“most of us have been exposed and have antibodies”
As of early May it was only 20%, not most, and it is unlikely that that number has increased to be “most” people in three weeks because people have been mostly observing the social distancing rules.May 22, 2020 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1863659CTLAWYERParticipant
I’m not in NY, so the state ruling doesn’t affect me/
B”H, with all the grandchildren, great nieces and nephews here in the CTL compound since about March 12th, we’ve has a Minyan every day.
Once they are open will I return to my shul minyan? Probably not until after the summer when and if the children return to school/yeshivos. I won’t chance picking something up and bringing it home to my family. I also wouldn’t want to take up a space that someone saying kaddish might use.
Personally, I don;t think most shuls have the money or manpower to properly disinfect, change air handling and filters, etc to proper;y insure our safety. I’ll sit it out a home for quite a while longerMay 22, 2020 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1863678
@Charlie Hall, you are in Toronto, NY numbers show about 50% antibodies and the frum number is closer to 75%.May 22, 2020 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1863680
The President just gave a plug to reopen shuls.May 22, 2020 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #1863703
President is right about his saying that prayer is essential. Problem is that he didn’t give any guidelines which is now confusing the issue. He could have stated that Shuls can open with proper social distancing and depending on the size, that will determine how many people can attend. NYS said that we can open but limited the attendance to not more than 10. Did the Presidents comments override the limit? Here in Forshay, we are still davening on our own porches but some of the other Shuls are indeed opening. My neighbors have already expressed hope that my Porch Minyan will be open through the summer. I’m open to that.May 22, 2020 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #1863714147Participant
B’H we reopened at crack of dawn yesterday Thursday, and were emailed instructions from our Shul literally moments after NYS Governor’s announcement on Wednesday.
To just be clear:- Nothing could be more important this שבועות than having Shuls up & running again. This alone is even more important, than cheese cake, flowers overnite learning, haircut from a shuttered barber, all combined, still less significant, than B’H having Shuls back up & running this שבועות.May 22, 2020 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #1863715
Really now? as far as I can tell ALL shuls in Forshay open, Sheiners, Rottenberg, Twerski, Schnall, Warfman are all open, what shuls are still closed?, in fact the shuls in Wesley and Montebello reopened for the most part.May 23, 2020 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #1863809
Yidden don’t need the Trumpkopf to tell us that davening is “essential”, but that is NOT the issue for purposes of whether it is “safe” yet to hold minyanim in shuls that either cannot or will not undertake the necessary investments in their facilities and practices to conform the CDC and state guidelines. The comparison to opening liquor stores is beyond stupid since the latter have able to restrict the numbers of customers in a store at any time and enforce social distancing compared to a shul with dozens or even hundreds of daveners in close proximity. Most importantly, the Trumpkopf could care less about spiritual welfare. This was a political stunt for his right wing evangelical voters since he has ZERO legal authority to “override” state laws and orders. He can direct his AG to file an amicus in court cases or even bring a case in federal court but otherwise, even Republican lawyers agree his statement was a joke.May 23, 2020 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #1863816
As a matter of fact, yes. Ohr Chaim was not open for Shabbos. Rabbi Lankry davened in my porch minyan. There were approximately 40 people at the Shul Friday morning instead of the normal hundreds that pass through daily. My porch minyan today had representatives from all the Shuls you mentioned and all will be there again next week for Shavuos if we are not in Yerushalayim, Bezras Hashem.May 24, 2020 12:04 am at 12:04 am #1863857
Did the Presidents comments override the limit?
No, of course not. He has no power to override anything the governors do. He’s a president, not a king. The governors don’t work for him, or under him. He’s a good president, but he needs to stay in his lane.May 24, 2020 12:05 am at 12:05 am #1863852bennyhorowitzParticipant
I’m from Teaneck and my father would like to come to Monsey to daven and say kaddish tomorrow morning, does anyone know where he can find an 8 or 8:30 minyan? Thanks in advanceMay 24, 2020 12:48 am at 12:48 am #1863870
The President can invoke the Defense Production Act to classify places of workshop as essential that should remain open, just like the President recently did regarding meatplants.May 24, 2020 4:06 am at 4:06 am #1863880
Joseph, is that a joke?May 24, 2020 8:30 am at 8:30 am #1863905
Milhouse, well workshop was a typo (probably spell check); it should’ve read worship. Otherwise, I don’t see why the president, as a technical legal matter, couldn’t do for houses of worship what he did for meatshops.
Then again, I’m not a lawyer. One could argue against it. But if the President actually did invoke this, presumably houses of worship would have a leg to stand on and reopen until it was otherwise litigated.May 24, 2020 8:31 am at 8:31 am #1863912
@benny horowitz All the miyanm factories are up and running full force with smaller miyanim, hamayvin yovim.May 24, 2020 10:13 am at 10:13 am #1863961A Yid 2.0Participant
53 souls in one room for Shacharis yesterday. Not a mask in sight. Just as predicted.
Watch the cases spike. Many of those crammed-in men and boys packed like sardines, had relatives at deaths door just a few weeks ago. As the Dr. said in an older post, what short memories we have.
To those who boast about the 75% Frum immunity, this begs the question, what are you feeling about those 25% of your parents, grandparents, Gedolim, and now children – NOT lucky enough to be in your safe category.May 24, 2020 10:28 am at 10:28 am #1863976
A Yid –
“Watch the spike” is that your brocha for us?Chas Vshalom! Al Tiftach Peh!
I don’t think we have short memories, I think you have fallen in to the “al tadin es chavercha’ trap that is always there for us. It may not be short memories, it can easily be 53 souls who already spent their week, two weeks, maybe three? fighting the virus themselves and in their houses and they do believe they are at risk anymore. And guess what, if they have high risk family members, do you know that they are in contact with them, or have not been keeping those members at bay, or maybe those members already had the virus?
There are a lot of people out there spouting all kinds of stuff, but you can’t blame 50 people (which by the way can consist of just 5 or 6 families) or 150 people for believing that if they have already had it run through their houses they can put it behind them.
Perhaps you are right and I am wrong, but I would rather be wrong than put statements like these out there for everyone to acceptMay 24, 2020 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #1863988
Today we davened in front of my porch again. It was the first Shacharis minyan during the week since Shabbos or Yomtov. We will be davening again tomorrow at 8:30 with Hodu at 8:45. Minyan is where the path on Lyncrest Drive used to be to enter Ohr Chaim. The town made me close it up so they can monitor who enters the Shul. There is plenty of room to stand with proper social distancing as the minyan stretches from Lodi Lane till Jay Court. We daven Mincha and Maariv daily at 7:30 and 8:45pm.
Syag, this is no longer a question of Al Tiftach Peh. PC is gone, people need to speak up. Enough people died, Nebuch during the past 2 months because of this, that people should realize that masks are not an option while davening inside of a Shul. Outside where there is open space and enough separation, masks are not a necessity. However if it gets out of control, I will demand masks outside as well. There is enough speculation as to whether the antibodies even help or if there is such a thing as herd immunity that would require everyone inside a Shul to wear a mask. It is exactly because of A Yid’s comment that my neighbors are hoping that we continue this minyan well into the summer.May 24, 2020 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #1863989
@a yid 2.0, how do you know about the 53 people in one room? were you one of them?
BTW the underground minyanim were running strong for 3 weeks now yet no spikeMay 24, 2020 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1864076Reb EliezerParticipantMay 24, 2020 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1864089
@forshayer, I saw EVERY shul in forshay was open and running indoors, its great that you are giving people a choice to daven outdoors, but don’t say the minyanim in Forshay are closed because they are NOT.
PS Just about all minyan in the greater Monsey are up and running INDOORS, please tell me what shuls still remain closed in Rockland, none that I am aware of,May 24, 2020 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #1864131
Fellows, even with the Minyanim being open in the regular shuls, even if all shuls are open, nevertheless most shuls are limiting the number of people being allowed to come (at the same time.) As such, not everyone can come to shul so there will still be ad hoc side Minyanim outside shuls, in people’s backyards etc.May 24, 2020 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #1864115
Dear A Yid,
None of the minyan or bust crowd answers your question. They have many other talking points. Most of them are honest and fair. Nor do they answer why a minyan is their main concern. Oh, well.May 24, 2020 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #1864143
No- probably because there is no such crowd. You have not stopped going on about it since day 1 like you just can’t move on but you seem to have made most if it up. What’s your story anyways?May 24, 2020 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #18641531Participant
In 1918 the second wave was worse than the first wave.May 24, 2020 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1864156
I think a few of my replies to you have not gotten through. Please be specific, so I could write one point at a time.May 24, 2020 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1864158
Joseph, I thought you wrote “workshop” on purpose, and were making a joke. If you were serious, then no, it should be obvious that this cannot work. How could the Defense Production Act possibly allow him to interfere in a matter that has no connection to defense production? What military equipment are shuls and churches making?May 24, 2020 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #1864170
Specifically- what’s your story?May 24, 2020 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #1864172
Milhouse, you could ask your same question regarding meat plants. Yet the President invoked it for meat plants.
Furthermore, even if your question is valid and on target, if the President simply asserts the Defense Production Act in ordering places of worship to reopen as he did with meat plants, perhaps by stating America needs prayers for the wellbeing of our national defense, after the fact I don’t see what could stop any house of worship from reopening at that point under the rubric of the presidential order, even if it is in defiance of the state governors executive orders.
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