MODERN ORTHODOXY: The Fundamental problems

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  • #1119186
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gavra, I would guess so.

    #1119187
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Gavrah

    I believe you are mixed up on the definition of straw man

    You raised a valid point about the writing of Greek in the BM

    However, I pointed out that you cant extrapolate from that. Because you will only find a narrow allowance of greek language allowed (because of yaft elokim layefes). And you can not extrapolate from there an allowance of greek culture.Nor can you extrapolate to any other culture or language other than Greek. (I just did the gemorrah that mentions one reason for acher going of the derech is because he sang greek songs). Chazal has no tolerance for embracing goyish culture.

    Thats not a straw man, It’s me telling you your source is incorrect so go look it up.

    On the other hand

    The OP raised the concern that MO is allowing a lot of cultural mixing (perhaps based on torah im derech eretz).

    So all the references to problems in other branches of yiddishkeit, well that is the definition of a straw man.

    #1119188
    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    To my knowledge there was only one person who got away with making drastic changes to orthodoxy while retaining the perception of being orthodox through the generations. Reb Yisroel Baal Shem Tov ztl. That is all. Any person (mis)quoting “al titosh” to attack modern orthodoxy while advocating for more chassidus would seem to be stuck in an irrational stubborn ironic brainfreeze.

    #1119189
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    mentsch1 – In no way do I disagree with you that we should not be embracing American culture. My argument with you is only why the Maccabees fought with the Greeks. I say (and am backed by Megilas Antiochus) that they fought because the Greeks did not allow them to practice their own religion. You argue that they fought to remove all traces of Greek culture from Jewish society (correct me if I’m wrong). My counterargument to you was that Chazal were accepting of a certain level of “Greekness” in Torah Jews, even if they did not promote it. We can also bring in the discussions that various Tannaim had with Greek or Roman thinkers, if you find it relevant.

    I didn’t realize that you didn’t understand what I thought we were discussing, and apologize.

    The OP is long gone, that’s how the CR works. We go on many tangents 🙂

    #1119190
    Avi K
    Participant

    Rav Kook says (Ein Aya Shabbat2:5):

    ???? ?? ?’ ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?”? ???? ?????? ???????, ??”? ???? ??????? ?????, ????? ????? ??? ???? ?’ ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???. ???? ?????? ???????? ??? ??? ??”? ????? ??????, ?? ???? ??? ?????, ????? ???? ?? ????? ??????, ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???????? ???????? ???? ???? ????, ?”? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??????. ??? ?? ??’ ?????? ???? ????? ?”? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ?????? ?????, ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?’ ????? ???? ???. ?”? ?? ?’ ????? ????? ????? ????? ????’ ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?”? ????? ?????? ????????? ???????? ?????.

    There are aspects of gentile ideologies that can undergo “giur” but much is outside the pale such that the ideologies need only be referenced when they are popular.

    As for American culture, much was taken from us as the Anglo-American philosophers of the 17th-19th centuries were lovers of Tanach. The English legal philosopher John Selden even learned from Rabbi Menashe ben Yisrael, who also taught Hugo (DeGroot) Grotius, the father of international law. Of course, much is distorted as they saw it through a Xtian prism but much is actually Jewish. IMHO, those who are seeking to preserve American traditions realize this and this is why they are so supportive of Israel.

    #1119191
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY and GAW: No. Meshaneh Halachos is the proper grammatical way to say R’ Menasheh Klein’s Tshuvos. People say Mishneh Halachos but they’re wrong. Mishneh Halachos means repetition of Halachos. It’s a noun. The verb “Leshanot” means “to change” in modern Hebrew but meant “to learn” or “to teach” or “to repeat” in Mishnaic Hebrew. So “Meshaneh Halachos” is a verb meaning that these Teshuvos are teaching over Halachos.

    I don’t know the exact Chelek. I never saw it inside, just a pdf.

    #1119192
    Sam2
    Participant

    mentsch: You’re against B’feirush Gemaras. Chazal Assered Greek culture 100+ years after the Chanukah story as a direct response to something that happened. It’s very clear that they didn’t outlaw Greek culture at the time of Chanukah.

    #1119193
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Gavrah + Sam2

    I am aware that the main reason the battle took place was to kick out the greeks and abolish their edicts.

    That said, the main hashkafic reason we have a holiday of chanukah is to commemorate our victory over greek culture. Chanukah is not a celebration of a military victory.

    The mefarshim ask the question of how goyim can be metamei the pach shemen and the answer given is that it was tamei because of the hellinistic jews. This was a war against an influx of foreign culture and that it still what it is.

    Unfortunately the way it should be practiced is the opposite of the way we practice it. Instead of vacations from school and lots of family parties, it should be a time of more intensive learning and an attempt by all of us to remove as much foreign culture as possible from within us (michtov mayeliyahu main source)

    I admit to not being a talmud chachum and i certainly do not know shas bal peh.

    I would be glad for anyone to prove me wrong. But it would shock me. Nothing I have ever seen has ever even implied a tolerance of chazal of imitating or integrating any foreign culture.

    Those familiar with the controversy over moreh nevuchim know that one of the main sources of contention by other reshonim was the RAMBAM’s respect for greek philosophy. And thats just thought, certainly no one tolerates practice.

    Which brings us back to my main point, what I believe is the failure of MO to excise goyish culture, rather there is an acceptance and even a raising it to the level of mitzvah through torah im derech eretz

    #1119194
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Greeks were not Monolithic and Chazal acted differently to different Greeks.

    Alexander the Great (Who was a Macedonian, not a Greek) was welcomed by Chazal and Alexander is still considered a jewish name.

    After Alexander died, his empire was split in 3 parts. The 2 main parts concerned jews were the Egyptian Greeks (The Ptolomies) and the Syrian Greek (The Selucides–(Antiochus in Hebrew)) . the border between the Ptolomies and the Selucidies was Judea. The Ptolmoies were generally hospitible to the jews and allowed them freedom. It was the Selucidies who were brutal and did not allow judaism to flourish. it was under the Ptlomoies that the Septugent was written.

    #1119195
    mentsch1
    Participant

    zahavasdad

    Alexander was not welcomed by chazal because they were happy to have a greek rule over them. Nor did they want to embrace greek culture.

    They made a choice that was very shas hadchak

    Go look up the story

    Alexander wanted to put up a statue of himself in the BM, This was chazal’s way of preventing that

    (“why put up a statue that is temporary, we will name our kids after you and that will be a remembrance forever”-I’m paraphrasing. And since the words of chazal are forever, so there are still alexanders.)

    #1119196
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I am aware that the main reason the battle took place was to kick out the greeks and abolish their edicts.

    That said, the main hashkafic reason we have a holiday of chanukah is to commemorate our victory over greek culture. Chanukah is not a celebration of a military victory.

    Your word vs. Megilas Antiochus, the Gemorah Shabbos and others. I’ll let the Olam decide.

    #1119197
    Avi K
    Participant

    Mentsch, Rmabam also says at the beginning of Hilchot Chanuka that it was the beginning of 200 years of national independence. For that matter, many of the days on which Megillat Taanit says it was prohibited to fast were commemorations of Hasmonean military victories. This despite the fact that after the first generation they became Tzaddukim.

    #1119198
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Chazal Assered Greek culture 100+ years after the Chanukah story as a direct response to something that happened.

    yah yah, because of the end of sotah.

    #1119199
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    100 years after the Chanukah Story the Greeks were insignificant, it was the Romans who were the world power

    #1119200
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    100 years after the Chanukah Story the Greeks were insignificant, it was the Romans who were the world power

    yah yah, the story in the end of sotah is how the romans got into yerushalayim, and it was because there was an old dude inside who knew greek and yelled down to them to send up a pig.

    #1119201
    Luna Lovegood
    Participant

    Mentch1- You’re a hypocrite. You’re using the internet, a secular creation, and typing in English, a language based off Greek and Latin. If you truly beleive in not borrowing from other cultures why aren’t you typing in Hebrew or better yet, why are you using the internet? You can’t reprimand those who interact with secualr culture when you’re doing it too.

    #1119202
    Sam2
    Participant

    mentsch: You are very, very incorrect.

    I am aware that the main reason the battle took place was to kick out the greeks and abolish their edicts.

    That said, the main hashkafic reason we have a holiday of chanukah is to commemorate our victory over greek culture. Chanukah is not a celebration of a military victory.

    Have you read Al HaNisim recently?

    The mefarshim ask the question of how goyim can be metamei the pach shemen and the answer given is that it was tamei because of the hellinistic jews. This was a war against an influx of foreign culture and that it still what it is.

    I have no idea what you are saying. Non-Jews are Metamei Kodshim by touching or moving them. That’s a Gezeirah D’Rabannan

    I would be glad for anyone to prove me wrong. But it would shock me. Nothing I have ever seen has ever even implied a tolerance of chazal of imitating or integrating any foreign culture.

    Chazal don’t like Greek culture, but that came much later than the Channukah story. Chazal have some (albeit very few) nice statements about some things that some foreign cultures do, notably the Persians.

    Those familiar with the controversy over moreh nevuchim know that one of the main sources of contention by other reshonim was the RAMBAM’s respect for greek philosophy. And thats just thought, certainly no one tolerates practice.

    The biggest Taanos on the Moreh Nevuchim were how he defined HKBH and Olam Habah and similar things, not because he quotes and respects Aristotle. And it’s not just “thought”. If you were familiar with the controversy over the Moreh (and Yesodei Hatorah in the Yad), you would know that the Rambam says that these “thoughts” are far more integral to being a Jew than any actions.

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