MODERN ORTHODOXY: The Fundamental problems

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  • #1119085
    charliehall
    Participant

    ” I once heard Rabbi Weiss comment that many people who started at HIR will no longer daven there.”

    I once heard Rabbi Weiss describe staying up all night with a young man about to get married the next day to a non-Jew. The man called off the wedding and came back to observance. He is now living in Meah Shearim. Thank you, Rabbi Weiss.

    #1119086
    charliehall
    Participant

    “he is much more frum than he lets on.”

    This is true.

    #1119087
    charliehall
    Participant

    “The future of Israel is clearly religious zionist. “

    The only way to prevent this is for charedim to participate more in society, but getting better secular education and serving in the IDF.

    #1119088
    Joseph
    Participant

    Is he now a pro-OO supporter of HIR and YCT in Meah Shearim?

    #1119089
    charliehall
    Participant

    “many people who started at HIR will no longer daven there”

    I daven there for two main reasons:

    1) It is the closest shul to my house that has both weekday and Shabat minyans.

    2) The Shabat services have more singing and are not as rushed as at the the other shuls, with less talking. (One very frum visitor came on a Shabat and said half-jokingly that there was so little talking that he wasn’t sure that it was an orthodox shul.)

    #1119090
    Avi K
    Participant

    Charlie, are we talking about the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale? There are two other shuls in the immediate vicinity.

    #1119091
    Rabbi of Crawley
    Participant

    Let’s not worry. Moshiach is nearly here and then everyone will become charedi , even the MOs

    #1119092
    Matan1
    Participant

    Rabbi of Crawley,it is that attitude that makes me worried that I won’t live to see Mashiach.

    #1119093
    Avi K
    Participant

    Rabbi of Crawley, if the samll “c” was deliberate I agree with you. BTW, in Rav Kook’s time there was only “chareidi” and “chofshi”. Rav Kook objected (“Massa HaMachanot” printed in “Maamarei HaRaya”) as they prevent teshuva. People who are called “chareidi” think that it means that tey are 100% and people who are called “chofshi” think that it doe snot apply to them.

    #1119094
    takahmamash
    Participant

    Let’s not worry. Moshiach is nearly here and then everyone will become charedi, even the MOs.

    Doubtful that we will all become chareidi – we will all live according to halacha, not according to chumra.

    #1119095
    charliehall
    Participant

    Everyone should be Charedi in their commitment to their own learning and observance of mitzvot, Religious Zionist in their commitment to the State of Israel, and Open Orthodox in their commitment in expanding Torah learning for women.

    #1119096
    shimen
    Participant

    charliehall

    ..and consevatives to driving car to shul on Shabbos after all mitzvah (haba beaveirah) and reform expanding even more aka just do whats comfortable to you vechulu, vechulu

    #1119097
    shimen
    Participant

    takahmamesh

    Can you give us 2 samples of what you call just observing halacha and chareidi are machmir and doing more?

    #1119098
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Luna

    I grew up in the same YI as one of the more controversial figures in OO.

    So my MO origin credentials are solid. Based on that I emphatically state that you can not argue that MO is as makpid on “regular” halochos as the charedi community.

    The women did not cover their hair, the girls were not tzinius. During the summer the counselors in the mixed day camp had no problem mingling in swimsuits. My friends were not shomer negia (or worse). The women kept starting clandestine simchat torah minyanim so they could dance with the torah etc. I could go on all day long.The final straw was my interview at YU when I visited my friends brothers already there. The walls were bedecked with inappropriate posters. For them a religious experience was strumming a guitar to some goyish nigun while smoking something illegal (at the time). I went straight to Ner Yisroel (which is not MO)

    To me the over riding philosophy of many was “religion on my terms”. Sure there were good men, graduates of YU who were shtark, but it felt like a losing battle against those always trying to push the boundaries.

    The OP is not wrong in his assessment (just his tone). MO is devolving into a hellinistic culture. Blending secular with religion.

    Even your screen name is borrowed from secular culture.

    #1119099
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Charlie, are we talking about the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale? There are two other shuls in the immediate vicinity.”

    There are a lot MORE than two other shuls in the immediate vicinity. However, it is likely that the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale will have the largest membership for 2016 for the first time ever.

    #1119100
    charliehall
    Participant

    “consevatives to driving car to shul on Shabbos”

    I have never been to a service at the one C shul in my neighborhood but it does look like almost everyone who attends services there walks.

    “reform expanding “

    In my neighborhood the two R shuls have small memberships; one seems to be kept afloat only by Orthodox folks renting space there for minyans and simchas.

    “just do whats comfortable to you”

    That is not what Orthodox Judaism is about and you know it.

    #1119101
    shimen
    Participant

    charliehall

    ‘open orthodox expanding commitment to women’

    excuse ,but don’t make it sound so simple. The major OO clergy are koifer torah min hashomayim. they say Holy Torah is multi-author ,afre lepima, mock the akaida and much more. Some deny the ten plagues. Say was natural phenominom (why don’t they just deny it happened?)Also the womens issue…igros moshe ztvkl, who you bandi about when it suits you, says its kefira .Igros moshe ohr chaim vol 4 simen 49

    #1119102
    Joseph
    Participant

    shimen: We miss jent1150. Any idea where he is? 🙂

    #1119103
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Open Orthodoxy is not the same as Modern Orthodoxy and people need to stop equating the 2.

    How many charedim want to be associated with Neteuri karta?

    #1119104
    charliehall
    Participant

    “they say Holy Torah is multi-author”

    No, they don’t. And you are over the issur of motzi shem ra by falsely claiming that they do.

    #1119105
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If they were devolving into a Hellenistic culture, they would change their names and their clothes to Greek style and worship Zeus.

    #1119106
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So a perfectly stupid thread about MO has turned into an asinine thread about charlie.

    #1119107
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    excuse ,but don’t make it sound so simple. The major OO clergy are koifer torah min hashomayim. they say Holy Torah is multi-author ,afre lepima, mock the akaida and much more. Some deny the ten plagues. Say was natural phenominom (why don’t they just deny it happened?)Also the womens issue…igros moshe ztvkl, who you bandi about when it suits you, says its kefira .Igros moshe ohr chaim vol 4 simen 49

    Unfortunately, you have just proved the need for secular education in the Charaidi world. You will not convince anyone with an argument written as such.

    Boruch Hashem, in America, Charaidi has a much broader tent, to the point where Rav Shechter of YU is considered a “Charaidi”. People say that I’m a Charaidi as well! (I’m a Quaker).

    If Charaidi in America were defined as it is in Israel (no working men allowed, Kosher Phones exclusively, etc.) you would see the percentages plummet.

    #1119108
    shimen
    Participant

    chaliehall

    OO can call themselves orthodox till blue wont change a thing.

    #1119109
    Avi K
    Participant

    Mewntsch, what about Tora im derech eretz? As ffor Ner Yisrael, my understanding is that they have an arrangement where bachurim can take college courses in professional studies. They also give degrees in Talmudic literature whose main value is to get into law school.

    Charlie, the Conservative temple in Riverdale, at least as I remember, is not in an area where there is a great deal of parking and walking is not a problem. In fact, that may be the morning constitutional. In suburban and exurban areas it is much different.

    #1119110
    writersoul
    Participant

    Mentsch1, I go to Stern. There are 100% people like you describe. There are also many who definitely aren’t.

    gaw: As far as charedi, I know that in the CR a specific YU rosh yeshiva was once described as being charedi. This made me crack up, as I know him personally and he would NOT describe himself that way. I asked a family member and, between guffaws of laughter, she said that he WOULD describe himself as chared ledvar Hashem, but not charedi in the Israeli sense. That makes much more sense. I don’t think that charedi in the Israeli sense exists in the US.

    #1119111
    Joseph
    Participant

    American chareidim are closer (in many senses) to Israeli chareidim than they are to DL/RZ/MO.

    #1119112
    shimen
    Participant

    charliehall

    ‘no they don’t…..’ Just keep your head buried in the sand. Just look up their clergy sites . also read Rabbi Godiners articles exposing them. ‘ motzei shem rah ‘? does not apply to mayseisay vumadichay. Also you have no problem bashing ehrlicher shomrei toreh

    #1119113
    yytz
    Participant

    People are assuming that MO and charedi are two completely separate, internally-homogenous things. But that’s not true at all. It’s more like a continuum, or many continuums on several issues. There are many people in the middle (like “frum but not yeshivish”) wouldn’t describe themselves as MO or charedi.

    Even in Israel there are many moderate charedim, who work and have some secular education and interaction with the outside world. Likewise, there are many MO in the US and DL in Israel who are very frum and are influenced mainly by charedi rabbis, hashkafically and halachically.

    People like to lump everyone into two categories, those with and without the black hats. But it’s not that simple.

    #1119114
    Sam2
    Participant

    mentsch: I would be fascinated to know what “walk” in YU you are referring to with non-Tznius pictures posted. I highly doubt it exists. Tthere is actually one possibility and there is an interesting story behind it. There is one picture of a girl with her elbow (but not higher) uncovered. From what I was told, many Roshei Yeshivah protested and asked that it be removed. I believe the final decision was that it would embarrass the girl to remove it so that wasn’t worth taking it down.)

    #1119115
    charliehall
    Participant

    “the Conservative temple in Riverdale, at least as I remember, is not in an area where there is a great deal of parking and walking is not a problem”

    Correct. But it is better to walk to shul than to drive. I would hope that we can all agree at least to that, right?

    #1119116
    charliehall
    Participant

    “So a perfectly stupid thread about MO has turned into an asinine thread about charlie.”

    I actually came here to elevate the discussion.

    #1119117
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    American chareidim are closer (in many senses) to Israeli chareidim than they are to DL/RZ/MO.

    Depends on who and how. But in EY, they would not be called Charaidim.

    In many ways, the use of the term in America was intentional to make people here identify with Charaidim in EY (a cynic would say so that we would give them more money, as they are our “type”).

    Rav Moshe used the term “Yeraim”, which is probably more accurate than “Quaker”.

    #1119118
    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, in which senses? In fact, there is a wide cultural gap even among Chassidic groups. For example, when the Satmar rebbe came here once his American followers shocked the locals by videotaping him. As for inappropriate pictures, Rav Reisman once complained that he receives phone calls from employers who complain about baalei battim who go into inappropriate Internet sites on work time. As Charlie mentioned, there is such a big problem with honesty in business that Chareidi groups are sponsoring talks on the subject with both frum attorneys (Benjamin Brafman is a big on this) and dayanim. To be fair, it cuts across the spectrum. I heard of a prison in the US that has two minyanim: YI and Aguda.

    #1119119
    mentsch1
    Participant

    AviK

    as far as I’m concerned, Torah IM derech eretz means nothing more than being a shtark baal habus. Ner Yisroel allowed me to become a professional while learning. But the philosophy was not tolerant of becoming “cultural”, it was a yeshivish atmosphere. The dorms looked like any other yeshiva.

    Rebyid

    Do you really think that the Maccabees were fighting only jews who worshiped zeus? Thats ridiculous. It was a fight against a blending of cultures. And If your honest, you would agree that many in the MO world are trying to do just that.

    Sam2 I’m talking about the dorms, There was more than one dorm at the time (this goes back 20 years). Yes there was a more yeshivish dorm but the people I knew where not in that one. And the posters on the wall showed a lot more than elbows.

    #1119120
    Joseph
    Participant

    Who does Rav Moshe apply the term “Yeraim” to?

    #1119122
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Who does Rav Moshe apply the term “Yeraim” to?

    Yirei Shomayim.

    #1119123
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    AviK

    as far as I’m concerned, Torah IM derech eretz means nothing more than being a shtark baal habus. Ner Yisroel allowed me to become a professional while learning. But the philosophy was not tolerant of becoming “cultural”, it was a yeshivish atmosphere. The dorms looked like any other yeshiva.

    Ner Yisroel is Modern Orthodox, or YU is Charaidi. Take your pick.

    Rebyid

    Do you really think that the Maccabees were fighting only jews who worshiped zeus? Thats ridiculous. It was a fight against a blending of cultures. And If your honest, you would agree that many in the MO world are trying to do just that.

    Source?

    #1119124
    shimen
    Participant

    gavre at work

    source? you say.

    well, that’s what ‘reshoim b’yad tzaddikim, v’zaydim beyad oiskay torasaycha’ means

    #1119125
    shimen
    Participant

    mist

    #1119126
    Avi K
    Participant

    Rebyid, what about ??????? ???????? ??????? ??????????? ?????????? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ???????

    #1119127
    Sam2
    Participant

    mentsch: Ah. I have no idea what the dorms are like. I assume each floor or whatever puts up their own posters.

    #1119128
    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    All of orthodoxy believes in applying the Torah to the world we live in. I suppose the “MO” side of the continuum (whatever that is) believes that the true application of the Torah involves a greater interaction in “the real world.”

    I do not self-identify as MO, Chareidi, Yeshivish, or Chassidish.

    I wrote all the above to make one entertaining (AL IMHO) point:

    Anyone who thinks the “MO movement” (if it can be called that) is a greater change to orthodoxy than the “Chassidic movement” is an ignorant idiot. Again, IMHO. K, now I’m going to sleep. Have fun people…

    #1119129
    Luna Lovegood
    Participant

    Mentch1- Religiosity is a very large spectrum. The people you know who call themselves MO and the people I know who identify as MO can have vastly different levels of commitment. But as far as my experiences in a MO community I have found that a lot of my friends, teachers, and classmates had a strong commitment to halacha. They may not keep every single chumra but they do keep most halachot.

    As far as my screen name- I think that it represents what modern orthodoxy is all about. I live as a Jew in the world around me and I am able to follow halacha while still enjoying the positive parts of secular culture.

    #1119130
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Luna

    I read your post and I see everything that caused me to leave the MO world I grew up in.

    Now granted, everything I am about to say can apply to every Jew no matter what level he is at.

    That said, rationalization seems to be more of a disease in the MO world than black hat.

    In the yeshivish velt watching TV is something to be kept hidden because we recognize the inherent evil. So even when we are nichshal, we at least recognize the inherent wrong. My MO friends see it as having positive secular culture aspects.

    When discussing meticulousness of halachos, those halachos they don’t want to keep are “chumros”

    You even said “most halachos”! there is no such thing in orthodox Judaism as keeping “most halachos”! Its all or you arent orthodox!

    Torah IM derech Eretz was never about going to theaters and culture. Thats hellinisim

    As for a source (gavrah at work) try pachad yitzchok, maharal etc

    The same goes for yaft elokim lyefes

    There is no concept in Judaism for embracing goyish culture

    #1119131
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You even said “most halachos”! there is no such thing in orthodox Judaism as keeping “most halachos”!

    There are Halachas and there are Chumras and Hashkafas. many things people say are Halchas are actually Chumras or hashkafas

    #1119132
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    many things people say are Halchas are actually Chumras or hashkafas

    And vice versa.

    #1119133
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    mentsch1 – The Mishnayos in Shkalim discuss how the Kupos in the Bais HaMikdash had Greek writing so that people should understand what they are for.

    ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????, ?????? ?? ?????. ????? ????? ??? ??? ????; ??? ?????? ????, ????? ??? ???? ?????, ???? ???? ???.

    The “Zugos” at the time of the Chashmonaim had Greek names.

    Unless you can print a specific source here, that means that Jewish “culture” at that time was influenced by the surrounding society.

    Megillas Antiochus explicitly states that the reason for the rebellion was that the Syrian-Greeks did not allow the Jews to keep Shabbos, Rosh Chodesh and Bris Milah.

    Besides, it is Mefurash a Rebbe Hill!!

    #1119134
    shimen
    Participant

    zd,charliehall, gavra_at_work

    We’re still waiting for a few samples what you call ‘we keep just halacha as opposed to chareidim who are machmir’ so we can get a picture. We hope its not mixed swimming, to talk and mingle freely with opposite gender etc..because these are not chumros

    #1119135
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Hellenization is the transition into Greek culture. Becoming Egyptian or American is not Hellenization.

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