MODERN ORTHODOXY: The Fundamental problems

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  • #1119136
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    many things people say are Halchas are actually Chumras or hashkafas

    For example?

    And vice versa.

    For example?

    #1119137
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Gavra

    All you have proved is that yaft elokim layefes applies to the greek language

    which is the truth

    which is why there is an opinion that a sefer torah can be written in greek.

    It does not apply to any other cultural aspect. The fact that culture always seeps into our religion is something to be lamented, not embraced

    #1119138
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Just a few examples……

    many things people say are Halchas are actually Chumras or hashkafas

    For example? – 4 inches below the knee, no woman’s pictures, a black fedora for davening

    And vice versa.

    For example? – Paying tuition, not cheating the government, Z’manim for davening and Krias Shema, Negiah, Hilchos Tzedaka

    #1119139
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    mentsch1 – Statements with no proof, and no S’varah why the Chiluk is Mechalek. I will assume that you have none.

    #1119140
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    many things people say are Halchas are actually Chumras or hashkafas

    For example?

    Mode of Dress or Language spoken.

    It is not a HALACHA to speak Yiddish over a “Goyish” Language or its not an averirah to dress western style (Assuming tzniut isnt a concern)

    #1119141
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gavra, 4″ is a good example. No pictures is pretty iffy, and black fediras is an outright straw man.

    ZD, both straw men. Nobody I know thinks those are halachah (depending on what mode of dress you mean).

    #1119142
    Joseph
    Participant

    Tuition and cheating, as the counter examples, are also straw men.

    #1119143
    Rabbi of Crawley
    Participant

    any group with the word “movement” is apikorsus: What does ,”movement” mean?

    it means change. it means deviation from the norm. in the torah there is only a form? nothing else,

    reform? conservative, Modern orthodox is all deviation from the torah and one should daven for their heretic leaders to come back to teshuvah,

    #1119144
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Sorry Gavra

    the burden of proof is on you

    There is no Hashkafic evidence that embracing a foreign culture is a good thing, all statements of chazal say the opposite. Feel free to bring some proof.

    Yaft elokim is an interesting statement that does require explanation. But the explanation is always a narrow interpretation such as language.

    Another narrow interpretation (believe its the rambam, but could be mistaken)is that it simply means that greek philosophy was a better alternative for the goyim than what they had previously (avodah zora).

    #1119145
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    the whole idea of Chukas HaGoyim. There certanly is a Halacha not to follow the ways of the Goyim, however the line where we are allowed to follow the Goyim straddles the dividing line.

    We are speaking mostly English here which is Chukas Hagoyim. many forbid things like Sports, Music taken from Non-jewish sources, Many frown upon non-jewish foods. Obviously we do things that are Chukas Hagoyim like driving a Car or using a Telephone

    #1119146
    shimen
    Participant

    gavra at work

    ‘ paying tuition etc…’ now I see where you come from. When you don’t have any intelligent retort you ….

    Those crimes you mention are they officially sanctioned al pi torah in those communities you so hate? As opposed to the kules that is official sanctioned by you. By the way knees should be covered is not chumreh….’shoik baisha erva’. By the way, what is the purpose to uncover above knee…?

    #1119147
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Zahavasdad

    That is some mental leap

    It would seem that you are implying that because we drive cars then we can also do cultural things like listen to goyish music

    If I am understanding you correctly than you are proving my point about rationalization

    #1119148
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    There is no Hashkafic evidence that embracing a foreign culture is a good thing,

    Straw man. Go back to the original statement, then my question.

    #1119149
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    When I was referring to goyish music, I was referring to people who take non-jewish music and “make it kosher”

    And I have heard ‘Dvar Torahs” that claim that eating “Goyish Foods” even when kosher Damages your neshama

    #1119150
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY & Joe: I didn’t realize you would be that strict with what is termed “Halacha”. I’ll agree with tuition & cheating, but disagree with the black fedoras. There have been many threads started arguing that black fedoras are absolute Halacha (usually quoting the Mishna Berurah), but when discussion begins with a reasonable individual (such as we have had, DY), the reasonable individual admits that black fedoras are not Halacha. Unreasonable individuals stick to their guns at all costs.

    How about the other three (Zmanim, Negiah and Tzedaka)?

    #1119151
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    many forbid things like Sports, Music taken from Non-jewish sources, Many frown upon non-jewish foods.

    Do many say they are literally forbidden, or object on hashkafic grounds?

    #1119152
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    By the way knees should be covered is not chumreh….

    He didn’t say knees covered, he said four inches.

    #1119153
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    any group with the word “movement” is apikorsus: What does ,”movement” mean?

    Such as Rav Yisroel Salanter’s “Mussar Movement”?

    #1119154
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    ZD – agree with DY on this one. Chassidim use mode of dress as a way to separate from others (both halacha following Jews and not), not as a specific “Halacha”.

    And I have heard ‘Dvar Torahs” that claim that eating “Goyish Foods” even when kosher Damages your neshama

    Source? Besides, what is a Goyish food? Did the priest/Imam make a blessing on it before it was prepared?

    #1119155
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If the 3 oaths are Halacha or Hashkafa or not even relevant anymore

    #1119156
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gavra, they didn’t literally mean black fedoras. Wearing a hat is a reasonable discussion, but nobody really thinks it can’t be an up hat. 😉

    Negiah is probably unfortunately true for many, I don’t know about zmanim and tzeddakah, can you be more specific?

    I think the frummer MO people such as Sam and DaMoshe would say that negiah is not sanctioned in any official way, it’s just individuals.

    #1119157
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Fedoras are either Chukas HaGoyim or Beged Isha.

    #1119158
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Negiah is probably unfortunately true for many, I don’t know about zmanim and tzeddakah, can you be more specific?

    Zmanim: The unfortunate lack of respect for Zman Tefilah, both from the Chassidim and the 10:00 Shachris crowd during Bein Hazmanim.

    Tzeddakah – The much ignored Halachos of Kedimah brought in Shulchan Aruch. Have you (not personally, but the one ignoring the Halacha) ever asked your Rov to which types of organization/person you should be giving the bulk of your funds (instead of Kupat Hair (for curing MPB) or other Tzedakos with glossy ads or huge auctions)?

    You can modify to “Fedora or Homburg”.

    edited

    #1119159
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, what about it? So there’s a difference of opinion.

    #1119160
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Besides, what is a Goyish food?

    Food we dont have a “Mesorah” to eat, not because of kashruth issues, but because it wasnt eaten in Europe by our ancestors.

    #1119161
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Nobody says it’s assur, so what’s your point?

    #1119162
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Food we dont have a “Mesorah” to eat, not because of kashruth issues, but because it wasnt eaten in Europe by our ancestors.

    Like potatoes and quinoa?

    #1119163
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gavra, I don’t think zmanim or tzeddakah are examples of people thinking or saying it’s just a chumra.

    Modifying to add homburg misses the point. Nobody thinks halachah specifies a specific type or types of hat.

    #1119164
    shimen
    Participant

    Excuse. Computer froze last post

    gavre and friends,

    ‘Talmud hoya shematahare es hashrotzim b’150 tamim’ Yidishkeit was perpetuated not from S’U but from ‘al titosh toras imaycha…’ I do because thats how my father , grandfather etc etc. and that’s why my children, grandchildren and b’h great grandchildren look. As opposed to your derech . Your grandparents or somewhere down the line were like us. Then along came MO to accomodate or save (which was necessary then…)then centrist then OO (kofim gemurim, no matter which way you put it.Like, would the holy chasam soifer, igros moshe, noda b’yehuda etc etc allow a Baptist choir into the holy shul??!and a myriad other things

    #1119165
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Am I the only one who can’t make out shimen’s last post?

    #1119166
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Am I the only one who can’t make out shimen’s last post?

    I’ve already given up earlier in the thread, and just don’t bother trying. Like I said earlier after I tried the first time, his posts prove the necessity of teaching English writing classes in school.

    Gavra, I don’t think zmanim or tzeddakah are examples of people thinking or saying it’s just a chumra.

    No, worse, they are examples of Halachos that are outright ignored.

    Point on the black hat. However, it is difficult to reconcile with those who do believe that hat-wearing is Halacha (of which there are many, as we have had here in the CR in the past). I believe the ridiculousness of that Shittah was proven here.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/hats-off

    #1119167
    Joseph
    Participant

    DY, this is my best rendition:

    ‘Talmud hoya shematahare es hashrotzim b’150 tamim’. Yidishkeit was perpetuated not from Shulchan Urach but from ‘al titosh toras imaycha…’ I dress as I do because thats how my father, grandfather, etc. etc. did. And that’s why my children, grandchildren and b’h great grandchildren dress the same. As opposed to your derech of changing. Your grandparents or somewhere earlier down the line were like us. Then along came MO to accomodate or save (which was necessary then…), then centrist, then OO (kofim gemutim, no matter which way you put it.) Would the holy Chasam Soifer, Igros Moshe, Noda B’Yehuda etc. etc. allow a Baptist minister in the beis medrash?)

    #1119168
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Would the holy Chasam Soifer, Igros Moshe, Noda B’Yehuda etc. etc. allow a Baptist minister in the beis medrash?

    Didn’t the church used to force us to have have the priest darshan in shul? I think so.

    #1119169
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, worse, they are examples of Halachos that are outright ignored.

    That wasn’t the question.

    I believe the ridiculousness of that Shittah was proven here.

    I disagree.

    #1119170
    shimen
    Participant

    dass yochid

    we’ll what we mean is that it should be long enough so when you sit it should be covered.

    Note: Ladies get out of car many times are uncovered way above are macshil es hurabim.( in shmrei torah unitzvos language ‘chote umachte es hurabim,) Please don’t advise not to look because its too late.

    #1119171
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    No, worse, they are examples of Halachos that are outright ignored.

    That wasn’t the question.

    Fair for Tzedaka, but after rethinking Zmanim, I would argue that Yeshiva Bochrim who daven at 10:00 really believe that Zman is a Chumrah that they have to keep when in Yeshiva, but if they sleep late, no big deal.

    I believe the ridiculousness of that Shittah was proven here.

    I disagree.

    For a different thread.

    Still, we are left with “four inches” from one side, and Negiyah from the other. The difference between the two (as you pointed out earlier) is that many learned people think 4 inches is real Halacha, while Negiyah is more of an “Omer Muttar” type which knowledgeable people are well aware of the Issur.

    Anyone else want to add to the list?

    ZD – Shloshe Shevuos is a question of application. No one holds they are a Chumrah.

    #1119172
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Would the holy Chasam Soifer, Igros Moshe, Noda B’Yehuda etc. etc. allow a Baptist minister in the beis medrash?

    What does he have against Baptist over Catholics, Buddhists or anyone else? 🙂

    #1119173
    shimen
    Participant

    sd

    Goyishe foods?

    see sheloh hakodesh(means anything to you?)vol 5 daf 170 right column regarding ‘ben soror umoreh’ (parshes shoftim)

    #1119174
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    the Chasam Sofer Banned drashas in any language except yiddish

    #1119175
    shimen
    Participant

    joseph

    Please, don’t add ‘dress’ . I mean EVERYTHING. The holy reb arele of belz, when he quoted a passuk in torah,used to say ‘de heilige tatte hot gezugt es shtayed in the toireh…’ I think reb joseph, you are the only one who will understand the teefe kavanah of this. Also , you left out (CHANGED what I wrote)most important. clergy Weiss had a Baptist church choir in his temple on Martin Luther Kings birthday. Bah the way i’m not here to pass spellin’ etc etc bee.Be discretionary when reading my posts. don’t like de spell or…just skip reading my posts

    #1119176
    Joseph
    Participant

    I don’t think anyone thinks 4″ is literal halacha, but rather people realize it needs to be longer than just the knee since it needs to cover the knee when sitting, getting out of a car, etc. (as shimen pointed out). And 4″ is a reasonable number to cover most common scenarios (though even 4″ doesn’t cover all situations.)

    #1119177
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: I think the Meshaneh Halachos says that eating Chinese food is Assur because it’s “Goyish”.

    #1119178
    Avi K
    Participant

    Zahavasdad, not even Ladino? Lett he dead language (if it is a language) rest in peace (or, to be more exact, pieces considering the different dialects).

    #1119179
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Proper Spelling , grammar and Syntax is important so people can read and understand posts (Ill admit to being guilty of breaking this sometimes too)

    #1119180
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joseph – Not what the girls schools teach.

    #1119181
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t think anyone thinks 4″ is literal halacha

    Unfortunately, that’s not true.

    Sam, precise source, please?

    ZD, lol.

    #1119182
    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi: There are hundreds of thousands (and growing rapidly) who speak the language as their first language. Very very far from dead.

    #1119183
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY

    I actually spell fairly decently, but I type so fast, sometimes I type faster than i can spell and am prone to typos

    #1119184
    shimen
    Participant

    zd

    just don’t have the patience to correct, check. I b4 e xcept after c, capitals etc…as long as one gets the thought. There’s a Chasam Soifer vort on this…too long

    #1119185
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY – I think that “Meshaneh Halachos” – changer of halacha is meant to be a joke?

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