November 27, 2014 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #614347
#What is that supposed to mean.
When asked to categorize myself, for shidduchim, i never know what to answer,
I’m an open-minded BY type of girl, BUt I wouln’t consider myself yeshivish, hashkafically.
And then, what does Modern orthodox machmir mean?November 27, 2014 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1050209JosephParticipant
To be blunt, the first one is referring to someone who became less frum while the latter one is referring to someone who became more frum. Note the first one may be frummer than the latter, but importantly they are moving in opposite directions; one for the worse and one for the better.November 27, 2014 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1050210
Theres a new problem now with a surplus of guys not fitting into the main groups of cookies.November 27, 2014 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #1050211
What does “open-minded BY type” mean?November 27, 2014 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #1050212
In what way do you consider yourself not hashkafically yeshivish?November 27, 2014 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #1050213
#PAA, To answer you, I went to a BY school, But, I am more open-minded in areas of music, hashkafos…. It’s hard to explain… I am an out of town BY girl…
#DY, I am not looking for a learner, I listen to non-jewish music, but am working on stopping…, these little nuances..
Lior, I agree with you, I feel that yeshivish modern, sounds a bit like I am a bum… But I am not, But also not modern orthodox at all..
Any suggestions for a new term?November 27, 2014 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1050214voos epesMember
How about modernishNovember 27, 2014 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #1050215thethinkingjewParticipant
call yourself an open minded person.
You need to know yourself before you add labels.November 27, 2014 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1050216
So in other words, you’re not anything. Join the club.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/techeiles/page/14#post-524604 (and the post immediately following it)November 28, 2014 12:01 am at 12:01 am #1050217
#PAA, ??November 28, 2014 12:55 am at 12:55 am #1050218Chochom-ibberParticipant
#ModernYeshivish is a fine labe for what it represents. It is contemporary Yeshivish after-all; virgin white thick tzitzis down to the ankles, perfectly domed rimmed yarlmuka that would fall if not for the chupp, he probably wears very colourful bright clown socks, Ferragamo logos everywhere. Just a bunch of narishkite. They grow out of it eventually.
Id say your looking for a good working boy. One who’s goals are in both worlds. #CollegeButYeshivaGuyNovember 28, 2014 1:17 am at 1:17 am #1050219yytzParticipant
Correct me if I’m wrong but from a Modern Orthodox perspective, anyone to the right of them (not chassidish or sephardic) is Yeshivish. But many of these “Yeshivish” people, like yourself, reserve the word Yeshivish for “right-wing Yeshivish,” while calling themselves “frum but not Yeshivish” or maybe “Modern Yeshivish” or “left-wing Yeshivish.”November 28, 2014 1:24 am at 1:24 am #1050220
Chochom-ibber – that was a pretty rude post. Besides totally not fitting in with the more appropriate, thoughtful comments. You must be yeshivish.November 28, 2014 1:34 am at 1:34 am #1050221
I linked to a post where someone asked me what hashkafa I am and I responded by saying “none”. Based on what you said here, I was inviting you to join the club i.e. that you are not any specific hashkafa.November 28, 2014 1:48 am at 1:48 am #1050222yytzParticipant
Patur: Wouldn’t that mean you don’t believe in anything? Maybe instead you should say you’re “Orthodox without adjectives”?November 28, 2014 2:02 am at 2:02 am #1050223
Patur: Wouldn’t that mean you don’t believe in anything?
No.November 28, 2014 2:51 am at 2:51 am #1050224
#, if you’re working on stopping listening to non-Jewish music, it’s a ta’avah, not a hahskafah.
I think, based on what you’ve posted, Chochom-ibber is right about what you’re looking for (and as an aside, maybe I missed something, but I don’t see rudeness in that post).November 28, 2014 4:15 am at 4:15 am #1050225
#I agree with you daas yochid, I don’t see any rudeness either, I think chochom you are right, and thank you PAA!November 28, 2014 4:36 am at 4:36 am #1050226
That’s really sad.
I can’t even cut and paste the rude lines because none aren’t. Do you believe it is respectful, or even considerate to say someone wears Tzitzis to their ankles, a domed keepa that would fall off if not for the chup, clown socks? That wouldn’t insult someone reading that? How bout, “just a bunch of naarishkiten”?
Maybe you are used to people talking about others like that but, thankfully, I find it rude. And I know that modern yeshivish friends would find it insulting as well.
I’m sorry it works for you.November 28, 2014 4:43 am at 4:43 am #1050227
and thank you PAA!
Does that mean you’re joining the club?November 28, 2014 4:58 am at 4:58 am #1050228
#I guess so! yay!November 28, 2014 11:34 am at 11:34 am #1050230Avi KParticipant
I would say someone who learns and applies his learning, has a Talmudic way of thinking and is also knowledgeable in secular matters and has a secular profession.November 28, 2014 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1050231
Syag Lchochma: Chochom-ibber – that was a pretty rude post.
[…] You must be yeshivish.
Yes, your post couldn’t possibly have offended anyone, eh?
(Should I have assumed
“totally not fitting in with the more appropriate, thoughtful comments”
to also reflect your attitude toward yeshivish people?)
Or am I totally-off base? Was your last sentence sarcastic, and intended as satire of his rudeness? It’s a possibility…
I think I just found a way to express sarcasm without an emoticon.November 28, 2014 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1050232
You continue to associate having a job with being on the left…
Of the things you listed, only “knowledgeable in secular matters” is “modern,” and I think it would matter why he has the knowledge, and exactly which secular matters we’re talking about.November 28, 2014 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1050233
“I think I just found a way to express sarcasm without an emoticon.”
apparently notNovember 30, 2014 3:00 am at 3:00 am #1050234
Perhaps you should find the part of my post which was
sarcastic, and see if there’s anything unusual about it.
Your sarcasm took up four words in an otherwise serious post, and was not indicated in the text in any way. Also, seeing as the post you were talking about was rude, and the poster who posted it presumably was yeshivish (who else would make fun of “modern” people?), the only thing you could have been sarcastic about was his rudeness being a result of his being yeshivish. It took me until about 15 minutes after putting up my own post to think of the possibility.November 30, 2014 3:16 am at 3:16 am #1050235
sounds like it might be worth your while to wait 15 minutes before posting.November 30, 2014 4:54 am at 4:54 am #1050236hindy caplanMember
you sound modern to me, so i guess you can say that your modern orthodox?November 30, 2014 5:11 am at 5:11 am #1050237
#poster, sorry for the noise. I do have an on-topic response in the works.December 1, 2014 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1050239writersoulParticipant
I’m having a similar problem. I’m not currently looking into dating in any way shape or form and do not plan on it for a decent while, but even just for myself (which isn’t a small thing at all) I have no idea where to place myself. I grew up in a basically yeshivish seviva (if not quite yeshivish home) and in high school and now sem I’ve seen different things and made different decisions that propel me in other directions. But I’m not so thrilled with things that people say are natural for people in my direction, either (I don’t consider that a default/ideal) and right now I feel a bit lost because there’s no box I can say I belong to and no place where I feel completely at home. My friend tells me that “you don’t have to be yeshivish or chassidish or modern, just tell people you’re an oved Hashem,” and I told her that while she’s right, unfortunately in society today that’s just not enough. (Her family has given her a very, very clear hashkafa, FTR.)
I think I’m going to take it on a case-by-case basis.December 1, 2014 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1050240
#I actually saw recently a good term, and I think I am adopting it.
I am yeshivish-leaning!December 1, 2014 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1050241
You’re kicked out of the club.
You can take hashtag’s place.December 1, 2014 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #1050242
#LOL! I can still be in the club, we can call it the leaning club, do you have one way in which you are leaning towards?December 1, 2014 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1050243
“there’s no box I can say I belong to and no place where I feel completely at home.”
That i hear.
I told her that while she’s right, unfortunately in society today that’s just not enough.
If you don’t mean the same thing as the quote above, rather a person cant lead a normal life and cant do anything without getting dragged down from not being a classic cookie cut then i disagree on that.
(#divergent)December 1, 2014 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1050244
I lean in more directions then a snowboarder on a triple black diamond slope.December 1, 2014 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #1050245
“then” should be “than”.December 1, 2014 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #1050246tzviki16Member
just be yourself,and you’ll be fineDecember 2, 2014 12:41 am at 12:41 am #1050247MachaaMakerMember
How about a Torah Jew?December 2, 2014 3:41 am at 3:41 am #1050248eekMember
“How about a Torah Jew?”
Yuck. Forget the we-don’t-label-people shtick. It’s simply not true. People need to be able to classify others to understand them.December 2, 2014 3:54 am at 3:54 am #1050249voos epesMember
Labels are how you know what person is without them how can I know whether to hate you or not?? 😉December 2, 2014 4:19 am at 4:19 am #1050251
and right now I feel a bit lost because there’s no box I can say I belong to and no place where I feel completely at home.
From a certain perspective it is advantageous to not belong to any group because you will feel more comfortable with other groups than had you belonged to a different group. E.g. if A is yeshivish, B is modern, and C is neither, C will feel more comfortable than B will among yeshivish people, and C will feel more comfortable than A will among modern people. But actually, that wouldn’t really be a function of being groupless inasmuch as it would be a function of being in between two other groups. So the best bet would probably be to create a group for the groupless. Or to quote David (as in David and Goliath?) “Friends of the friendless seize the day”.December 2, 2014 4:45 am at 4:45 am #1050252oomisParticipant
Labels usually mean nothing. I dislike putting names on people. I know some very (what would be called) Yeshivish people who are phonies, and modern Orthodox Machmirim, who are emesdig frum, while they also listen to classical music, are well-educated secularly as well as religiously, and hold down decent jobs. Labels are meaningless, divisive, and often meant pejoratively. And worse, they mean different things to different people.December 2, 2014 6:21 am at 6:21 am #1050253birdsonParticipant
I think it might be interesting to conduct a survey across different demographic orthodox jews about various hashkafos and characteristics associated with labels. I think there might be a lot more overlap than is normally assumed.December 2, 2014 7:44 am at 7:44 am #1050254BarryLS1Participant
Say your the yeshish version of a tuna baygel. The labels get a bit much since they are in the eyes of the beholder. MO has a connotation in people’s minds, as does every other label. Mostly, they don’t really fit.
How about saying your hashkofically somewhere between Young Israel and Agudah?December 2, 2014 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1050255writersoulParticipant
I’ll tell you what- I really don’t care what other people think my hashkafa is. I already have friends who wondered why I didn’t apply to BJJ and I have friends (as well as my eleventh-grade halacha teacher)who think that I’m halfway on the road to maharat-hood.
I want a place for myself, though, a place where I feel at home and where there is someone (SOMEONE!!!) who I can basically mostly (ish) agree with. I’m a hugely argumentative person but sometimes it’s actually nice not to need to fight things out. And then I think about things like- when I have my own family iyH what kind of school will I send my kids to? What kind of shul will I go to? Will I have any framework at all with people with whom I really belong?
I don’t care what other people label me- I just want to know where to go from here.
And PAA, I definitely agree with you-halfway- about being able to relate to more people this way- many of my friends who have stayed in the same community most of their lives find it hard to understand some things that others do, just because it’s not on their radar and because they’re used to a certain mindset. I know that I’m used to a lot of mental gymnastics as far as this is concerned so I feel somewhat less limited in that way and I find that it makes me more accepting IN GENERAL. However, I feel like because I don’t feel a specific kinship with any community, while I’m equally accepting, I’m likewise equally cynical…
oyyoyyoy: I can see your point but I don’t necessarily agree with it. I don’t feel the need to be a cookie cutter but finding a comfort zone is also important. After all, “o chevruta o metuta”- and having experienced the loneliness of friendlessness (in an environment) personally, I can tell you that a comfort zone is one of the most important things to have.December 2, 2014 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1050256
Why do I feel like all of you belong in Passaic or Baltimore (if they actually exist)?December 2, 2014 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #1050257
And PAA, I definitely agree with you-halfway-… However, I feel like because I don’t feel a specific kinship with any community, while I’m equally accepting, I’m likewise equally cynical…
Well I wrote “From a certain perspective it is advantageous to not belong to any group”. So I disagree with your statement that you agree with me half way. I would say that you agree with me full way – you just pointed out the other perspective. I actually originally pointed out the very point that you are making, but then I took it out of my post, though I’m not sure why. Maybe because I didn’t want to detract from the perspective which I was elucidating. Either way,
????? ?? ???? ??????(?) ?? (correct my dikduk if it’s wrong).
(The above was solely because I am a “hugely argumentative person”.)
On a more serious note, you raise some good points, especially about choosing a shul/school. I don’t know if there is any simple answer.* Unless you can find enough like-minded individuals. But I don’t know how likely that is – I don’t think I’ve ever met someone like-minded to me in real life. I understand the social aspect as well, but finding enough like-minded individuals to have friends shouldn’t be quite as hard as finding an entire school full of like-minded individuals.
*I would say to just look at all the schools and pick the one which seems the best overall, regardless of affiliation, but that might have some interesting results considering that your kids will probably getting mixed messages, and all the more so if you choose a shul in the same manner and end up with a modern school and yeshivish shul or vice versa. Oh well. There’s always home school. And home shul.December 2, 2014 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #1050258frumguy33Participant
1. Lior your wrong.
2. modern machmir typically means someone who has a yu type hashkafa torah u maada, fully halachic more Zionistic.
3. yeshivish modern yeshivish, yeshivish lite-etc. It usually depends more on someones background. A modern yeshivish brooklyner would prob be considered very yeshivish out of state. A bt who says he’s modern yeshvish is a lot different than an ffb saying it.
Eek you are right, that should be the end of the discussion, sadly in labeling ourselves we forget about Hashem
Theres two hashkafas growing and those not growing.December 2, 2014 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #1050259
Why do I feel like all of you belong in Passaic or Baltimore (if they actually exist)?
Because you’re not sure if we exist?December 2, 2014 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1050260
Truth is, after thinking about it, I was talking about myself. I too am in my own box, as you are, but on a much smaller scale it seems. The conclusion I came to (of it not interfering with life so much) may not necessarily apply to you.
I also feel the pain of not fitting perfectly in anywhere, as alluded to above, and sympathize with you. There may be a part of this that is only in our consecutive heads, however. I’m a believer of people seeing what they are expecting to see. True, there is probably an actual lack of belonging, but i don’t think it’s as bad as you’re telling yourself (and I’m telling myself).
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