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HaGaon HaRav Elya Brudny shlit”a, Chaver Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, announces that Agudas Yisroel is fighting the New York Department of Education public school equivalent mandate:
“Join” implies to do something that the other is already doing. HaRav Brudny is repairing the damage caused by Satmar et al, not joining them in anything.
Agudah, however, never endorsed children dressing uo in concentration camp uniforms & calling for destruction of Israel by summer camp kids…or am I mixing up Satmar with
Satmar. Is the gezeira shava Satmar, Satmar a valid one?…And as I already posted on another thread, Satmar & frum clout is waning. Obviously, entertaining the yammi,- bopped Cuomo with a bowl of peaches and Chiquita bananas didn’t do the trick.
Silly comments. Everyone is fighting this and we have to do it smartly and with Achdus. If it makes someone happy about who was first or second there is already an Achdus issue. This is a critical issue effecting all frum yeshivos. We need to work together and daven together to win this major issue and we will!
Joseph, the Satmar backed candidate lost in the last election, despite bloc voting.
First off, which Satmar is this? These days it’s confusing. Chassidim and Agudah regularly join forces because the big chassiduses have massive voting blocs and huge clout with the state.
But that changes nothing!
אלו אלו the Chassidisheh Yeshivos would have had Limudei Chol (like every other Yeshiva in NY, from giants like Darchei, TV, and Chaim Berlin, to the tiniest little mosod in some basement in Monsey) to begin with, this wouldn’t have started and דיינו. If אלו אלו they wouldn’t have barred the doors from inspectors, דיינו and everyone would have been happy. אלו אלו they appeased the inspectors with some basic fluff when they came around, דיינו and this wouldn’t have continued. אלו אלו they agreed to a compromise and given some basic classes, דיינו.
But no. For these Yeshivos don’t believe that they are in Galus. They think they can run things their way and ignore the goyim. That rules are for suckers and Litvaks. So they pushed and pushed and refused to compromise and demanded all then the entire frum velt has to clean up their mess and pretend to react in shock when it becomes abundantly clear how right the Chachomim were that תפסת מרובה לא תפסת .
Totly agrees. Sekler ejukashen is not importent.
Which Satmar? Will the rival of the rebe who is fighting this bill support it just as one supported clinton and the other Trump? I still do not see the problem. He who pays the piper gets to call the tune (בעל המאה הוא בעל הדעה). Yeshivot get funding for lunches and secular studies. Grads who cannot get decent jobs get various welfare benefits.
If anyone suggested using Yoder V Wisconsin as precedent, I would suggest to think very strongly about it. I don’t think the Satmar or many of the Chassidic Yeshivas would win using such arguments. One of the key points in that case was that the Amish refused social programs and engaged in further vocational training, which resulted in them not being a social burden. Towns like Kiryas Joel and New Square as 2 notable examples of the products of the Satmar and New Square schools, are both heavily dependent on social programs.
As to the non-Chassidic schools, if the State can show a relatively high dependency on social programs (which may be a real issue due to the numerous number of people in Kollel) they may also find that the religious opposition to secular education won’t fly. Once the burden on social programs is significant, the State will claim they have a vested interest, which allows them to burden religious practice.
One other point… For all those supporting the Trump/Conservative bandwagon, just remember that the conservative justices are more likely to take a dim view to relying on social programs. I would actually suspect on this issue, you would find both the liberal and conservative justices finding for the State and against the Yeshivas.
I continue to gaze at this subject with amazement. What troubles me is that there is a battle to fight, but that no one seems to be doing it. The public announcements, the video clips, the media hype are just smokescreens to make the oilem goilem believe the battle is being fought. But nothing meaningful happens here on this stage.
There are two venues where this will be resolved. One is the backrooms with politicians, away from media, no cameras or microphones. The other may be the courtrooms.
Meanwhile, it is childish to believe that parading in sackcloth matters here (Mordechai Hatzaddik knew when to do that), nor do video clips help. And the large groups (blocs) need to rethink how they choose to endorse and support candidates. By definition, politicians running for office are notorious liars, and they don’t change their stripes once elected.
Joseph – The full text of the case is easily found.
In the Syllabus of the court makes 4 points. Both point 3 and 4 refer to their non-reliance on social welfare.
From Point 3:
“long history as a successful and self-sufficient segment of American society”From Point 4:
“for the Amish have introduced convincing evidence that accommodating their religious objections by forgoing one or two additional years of compulsory education will not impair the physical or mental health of the child, or result in an inability to be self-supporting or to discharge the duties and responsibilities of citizenship, or in any other way materially detract from the welfare of society.”In the detailed decision there are numerous references to the sufficiency of their education, but here is one quote where rejection of public welfare is clearly noted:
“The State attacks respondents’ position as one fostering “ignorance” from which the child must be protected by the State. No one can question the State’s duty to protect children from ignorance, but this argument does not square with the facts disclosed in the record. Whatever their idiosyncrasies as seen by the majority, this record strongly shows that the Amish community has been a highly successful social unit within our society, even if apart from the conventional “mainstream.” Its members are productive and very law-abiding members of society; they reject public welfare in any of its usual modern forms. The Congress itself recognized their self-sufficiency by authorizing exemption of such groups as the Amish from the obligation to pay social security taxes.”Finally, not going to bother with the quotes here, the Amish get 1-8 education, it was the couple of years of secondary education that was the issue. Many of the Chassidic Yeshivas don’t even have a sufficient secular education at the elementary school level. Regardless, the issue of social welfare will very likely be one that the State can use to claim that they do not need to allow a religious based exemption from secular education. The Yeshivas that do put out many students who rely on social welfare, will very likely find that the Yoder case does not help them much.
This will be interesting to see posters and the YWN home page editors have to decide between their perceived yeshivishness and their irrational hatred of Satmar.
Joseph, yet another example of why noone believes your supposed citatations, whether they be from halachic sources or otherwise
Joseph, on the other hand talmidim in Pressburg earned an external baccalaureate in return for exemption from the draft as theological students. This stood the Orthodox in Hungary in good stead when a Pressburger was appointed Chief Rabbi. He spoke to Franz Josef in German whereas the head of the Neolog (Reform) spoke literary Hungarian, which annoyed the Emperor, who hated the Hungarian language he had to use there as part of the Dual Monarchy compromise. Rav Hirsch also insisted on a full program of secular studies (Torah im Derech Eretz). Both Rabbenu Bachya and the Gra say that one cannot be considered wise if he is not knowledgeable of the seven secular areas of wisdom (Logic, Mathematics, Ethics, Natural Science, Astronomy, Music, Theology). In order to function in a modern democracy one also needs a knowledge of the country’s history and political institutions. It goes without saying that one must be fluent in the language of the country (the Netziv, BTW, expressed regret at never having learned Russian and Rav Soloveitchik’s mother taught him Russian literature).
Didn’t the Lubavitcher Rebbe graduate from the Sorbone?
Simple solution :
1.)Home school your kids!
2.)Dont take government help!The seven lights of the menorah were against seven chochmas were the Torah was in the middle all facing the center because all other chochmas require the Torah knowledge e.g. the Rambam says in, shemona perokim, that illnes c’v comes from the body getting out of equilibrium. Freud’s Super Igo, Igo and Id comes from the Torah.
On second thought, the discussion only seems to be attracting those you uniformly dislike Satmar and the Yeshivish system.
You guys do realize that this situation would impact your beloved MO dayschools also, right? Imagine your 20K per year schools having to take on new expenses without any help from the state.
Laskern: There appears to be confirmation that the Rebbe Z’TL received an electrical engineering from the ESTP, a Grande école in Paris in the late 1930s and that he also attended the Sorbone but I haven’t seen confirmation that he actually received a degree from the Sorbone. In any event, the point is that the Rebbe was highly educated in secular and technology matters as were many of the great rabbonim in our history.
@laksern
NO, The Lubavitcher Rebbe did NOT graduate the Sorbonne. He enrolled in 1937 to study math, but left in 1939 when war broke out. In 1940 he fled to Vichy and then on to the USA in 1941.Neville, i mentioned elsewhere that there is a far greater danger to ALL yeshivas on the horizon. Now that the NY State Senate is under Democratic control, it looks like the Legislature is going to actually pass a bill establishing a 12 month filing period wherein the statute of limitations on filing molestation lawsuits will be waived. The newspaper article I read focused on the financial impact on the Catholic church but yeshivas will be hard hit as well ( just from the legal bills alone, let alone payouts).
The correlation seems to be with trusted, male role-models that oversee a lot of young boys. Coaches, for example, have also had problems with far less media interest.
Catholic nuns are also celibate, but don’t have this issue. Religious men who aren’t able to find a marriage partners end up being celibate, but don’t have this issue. It’s an immature and overly simplistic understanding of psychology to think that going too long without relations is going to cause a man to be attracted to children. These guys are mentally ill. There is no evidence that ending the celibacy requirement would cure them and make them attracted to women instead of boys.
However, I do agree that it doesn’t seem to be an issue in yeshivas. If it were found that there were a cover-up scandal at a yeshiva, I wouldn’t really feel bad for them being sued over it.
Joseph, I went to Chasidishe Yeshivas, Adas Yereim Wiener for elementary school and Chasan Sofer, HS, with proper english classes graduating with an academic degree with all the regents. I went to Brooklyn College majoring in Math and in Computers graduating with a BS degree. Afterwards, went to NYU Courant Institute in Mathematics for 12 credits.
Joseph, the story with the Netziv closing the yeshiva was because the russian government wanted to influence the curriculum of secular education. I agrree wth Yserbius123.
As I mentioned many times that extremes are not good. If the yeshivas avoid secular education altogether, then the government will require extreme measures in secular education like six hours. They don’t want the students after they grow up to rely on welfare because they can’t find a job to support themselves sufficiently.
laskern
Re: Chas. Sofer
I heard that pipe smoking Mr. Altusky was tough on the secular dept. and the teachers there were excellent.I took chemistry in Chasan Sofer and asked the teacher, what is the use for this? He said to me, you are able to see the greatness of G-d. He created a small solar system in every atom. According to string theory, He imparted his energy into every atom.
Neville:
I am far more interested in the across the board reporting to authorities and the expansion of programs to protect our children. However, I have a strong issue with the Markey bill, and it is based on the focus. The way it was proposed several times was designed to punish, not protect, not deter. That doesn’t sit well. I have no reason to protect a perpetrator,, and I sincerely believe there is no better place for one than in prison. I am not an advocate of less than life sentences for molesters. But the open season on yeshivos misses the point completely.
Firstly, the bad apples, whether faculty, menahalim, administrators, are probably long gone and replaced. We don’t know if past misdeeds and neglect (cover ups) were part of the reason for their no longer being in the employ of the yeshiva. But there should be personal liability for them, not the collective punishment of the yeshiva.
Secondly, the system believes anyone that claims victimization. The burden of proof is far less in this realm of crime, and this is also an issue. I grant that these crimes are generally committed away from spectators, and actual witness of the event is close to never. But the usual proof is the diagnosis of trauma symptoms, and this doesn’t implicate the perpetrator. Only the word of the victim. I actually know a case where someone was chased out of a career in chinuch, who was an excellent rebbe. The basis was the report of a child with trauma symptoms. A parent nailed this rebbe. The parent later recanted, with irreparable damage done. It turned out that the child had been victimized the year prior by someone else.
I support increasing the statute of limitations. Trauma often does not surface within the time allotted for court action. But the reality is that the longer time that passes shrinks the available testimony or evidence. And that needs to be tightened so that we are not just shooting at anyone. Until Markey does that, I vote with my feet to the ballot box to trash the bill.
Joseph – Your first response to me was that the Yoder case does not mention the rejection of reliance on social services, which I provided direct quotes from the case to show that it factored into the decision (nevermind it is mentioned in 2 out of 4 points in the header). Now you start to argue that the weight this has in the decision. Unlike you, I do not have time to engage in discussions where the goalposts are moving. You obviously in your first comment, said something clearly very wrong. Your follow-up comment is also very wrong. You are welcome to find the decision in its entirety and to read it. I won’t be bothering to debate this with you.
If you were in court and these were your arguments, you would likely be engaging in frivolous litigation. What you are saying is simply nonsense.
Your other claims are nonsense as well. But as you will simply ignore inconvenient facts and change the arguments as you go along, there really is no point in debating you, unless someone is interested in endlessly showing how each argument you make is flawed.
1. The Netziv closed the yeshiva because the Russian government wanted to severely limit Talmud studies.
2. The Gras aid that what one lacks in secular knowledge he will lack one hundred fold in Torah.
3. Home schooling requires an approved curriculum.
4. So be like the Amish. Don’t use electricity. Don’t drive cars. Farm using a horse.
From the syllabus of Wisconsin vs. Yoder 406 U.S. 205 (1972) :
“Beyond this, they have carried the difficult burden of demonstrating the adequacy of their alternative mode of continuing informal vocational education in terms of the overall interest that the State relies on in support of its program of compulsory high school education.”
From the Lancaster County, PA website:
“After several years of debate, Amish community leaders and public officials worked out a compromise. This compromise known as the Amish Vocational Program allows for Amish youth to attend a weekly vocational school at the age of 14 after completing the eighth grade in their parochial school.”
Didn’t the Lubavitcher Rebbe graduate from the Sorbone?
No. It’s revisionist history.
It is high time that we witness some form of achdus on an issue of importance to the klal. May the rebbono shel olam look upon this development as our one step forward in our desire to witness bias hagoel…amen.
Imagine if every time someone committs a crime, arrested etc they would mention they went to public school. That would be great.
Overall no system is perfect but I strongly believe we are doing WAY WAY better than the rest of the state.
Also to those who point to use of social service programs and their use. Our families on average are WAY larger. Most if not all social welfare programs use income and family size to qualify.
You can make $200k+ a year and if you have 10 kids be on practically free chiid health plus.I’m not sure there is any credible evidence that compliance with rules requiring a minimum number of “hours of instruction” in certain subject areas correlates with “performance’ on various tests or metrics for the subject areas of concern. Nor is there much evidence from anecdotal success stories about individual yungerleit who have learned in yeshivos with minimal secular instruction have nonetheless been able to achieve success in various business ventures. Perhaps the yeshivos could agree on some performance metrics that would not intrude on their ability to maintain their current programs in limudei kodesh while assuring that their graduates can function at minimal levels in secular reading, math and language skills.
The previous Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L and Rav Hutner ZT”L took classes together in gymnasium while they learnt by Rav Ezriel Hildesheimer ZT”L.
The catholics have just announced that they will boycott the new regs. Can we do that?
I wouldn’t use the Rebbe as a pro college argument. Although the Rebbe attended college at the behest of his father in law the Frierdiker Rebbe, he was strongly against for the klal due to the spiritual dangers inherent today.
Also those saying that we should applaud it or not fight it – it depends where this push is coming from. Looking at the facts, it would seem its not because of welfare etc (as they would have to compare to the public schools where the rate isn’t better) but because they don’t like our values. Have you heard what is going on in the UK? They started with just regulating health and safety… And now they’re pushing lgbt education. When the motivation is wrong you give a finger and they take a hand. And here they’re not even pretending to start with a finger. I watched the clip of the RY of Torah Vodaas today – he is so right. We need to unite around this and not think that its only for the more extreme. This is looking to target ALL Torah education. Coming from Chanukah the message couldn’t be clearer.
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