December 10, 2018 1:36 am at 1:36 am #1639850
HaGaon HaRav Elya Brudny shlit”a, Chaver Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, announces that Agudas Yisroel is fighting the New York Department of Education public school equivalent mandate:December 10, 2018 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1641091
YWN picked up the story a day after I posted this.December 10, 2018 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #1641110
“Join” implies to do something that the other is already doing. HaRav Brudny is repairing the damage caused by Satmar et al, not joining them in anything.December 10, 2018 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1641116
The Satmar Rebbe has been at the forefront of this fight since Day One. In fact, even the recent change in New York State law passed by the New York State legislature a few months ago at the behest of Senator Simcha Felder, that weakened New York’s century old public school equivalency law, came through the intense efforts of the Satmar Rebbe shlit”a.
Satmar is very powerful on the state and city levels in New York. For many decades governors of New York have been coming to Kiryas Yoel to pay homage to the Satmar Rebbe, including several recent visits by Gov. Andrew Cuomo. They’ve also had meetings with all presidents since at least Nixon.December 10, 2018 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #1641117
This isn’t the first time Agudas Yisroel and Satmar joined forces. About six years ago Satmar and Agudah organized an anti-Israel draft rally in Manhattan when the Israeli government was considering a new draft law for Yeshiva bochorim.
And none of this is remotely new. You can easily find historic photographs of similar public protests against Israel with the Satmar Rebbe zt’l sitting on the dais next to the Mirrer Rosh Yeshiva Rav Kalmonovitz zt’l and Rav Zak’s zt’l, son in law of the Chofetz Chaim and Rosh Yeshiva in Radin.December 10, 2018 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #1641131
Agudah, however, never endorsed children dressing uo in concentration camp uniforms & calling for destruction of Israel by summer camp kids…or am I mixing up Satmar with
Satmar. Is the gezeira shava Satmar, Satmar a valid one?December 10, 2018 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1641132
…And as I already posted on another thread, Satmar & frum clout is waning. Obviously, entertaining the yammi,- bopped Cuomo with a bowl of peaches and Chiquita bananas didn’t do the trick.December 10, 2018 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #1641185Bshtei_EinayimParticipant
Silly comments. Everyone is fighting this and we have to do it smartly and with Achdus. If it makes someone happy about who was first or second there is already an Achdus issue. This is a critical issue effecting all frum yeshivos. We need to work together and daven together to win this major issue and we will!December 10, 2018 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #1641182
Joseph, the Satmar backed candidate lost in the last election, despite bloc voting.December 10, 2018 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #1641178
In the decision Yoder v. Wisconsin, the US Supreme Court ruled that religious parents have the constitutional right to completely end all secular studies after eighth grade.
Satmar’s school system is as large as the Boston Public School system. One in three children in Jewish schools in New York State (i.e. statewide) are in a Satmar school.December 11, 2018 1:34 am at 1:34 am #1641130
First off, which Satmar is this? These days it’s confusing. Chassidim and Agudah regularly join forces because the big chassiduses have massive voting blocs and huge clout with the state.
But that changes nothing!
אלו אלו the Chassidisheh Yeshivos would have had Limudei Chol (like every other Yeshiva in NY, from giants like Darchei, TV, and Chaim Berlin, to the tiniest little mosod in some basement in Monsey) to begin with, this wouldn’t have started and דיינו. If אלו אלו they wouldn’t have barred the doors from inspectors, דיינו and everyone would have been happy. אלו אלו they appeased the inspectors with some basic fluff when they came around, דיינו and this wouldn’t have continued. אלו אלו they agreed to a compromise and given some basic classes, דיינו.
But no. For these Yeshivos don’t believe that they are in Galus. They think they can run things their way and ignore the goyim. That rules are for suckers and Litvaks. So they pushed and pushed and refused to compromise and demanded all then the entire frum velt has to clean up their mess and pretend to react in shock when it becomes abundantly clear how right the Chachomim were that תפסת מרובה לא תפסת .December 11, 2018 1:36 am at 1:36 am #1641245Rav TuvParticipant
Totly agrees. Sekler ejukashen is not importent.December 11, 2018 1:36 am at 1:36 am #1641248
Which Satmar? Will the rival of the rebe who is fighting this bill support it just as one supported clinton and the other Trump? I still do not see the problem. He who pays the piper gets to call the tune (בעל המאה הוא בעל הדעה). Yeshivot get funding for lunches and secular studies. Grads who cannot get decent jobs get various welfare benefits.December 11, 2018 2:06 am at 2:06 am #1641304
If anyone suggested using Yoder V Wisconsin as precedent, I would suggest to think very strongly about it. I don’t think the Satmar or many of the Chassidic Yeshivas would win using such arguments. One of the key points in that case was that the Amish refused social programs and engaged in further vocational training, which resulted in them not being a social burden. Towns like Kiryas Joel and New Square as 2 notable examples of the products of the Satmar and New Square schools, are both heavily dependent on social programs.
As to the non-Chassidic schools, if the State can show a relatively high dependency on social programs (which may be a real issue due to the numerous number of people in Kollel) they may also find that the religious opposition to secular education won’t fly. Once the burden on social programs is significant, the State will claim they have a vested interest, which allows them to burden religious practice.
One other point… For all those supporting the Trump/Conservative bandwagon, just remember that the conservative justices are more likely to take a dim view to relying on social programs. I would actually suspect on this issue, you would find both the liberal and conservative justices finding for the State and against the Yeshivas.December 11, 2018 2:41 am at 2:41 am #1641307
The Netziv closed the Yeshiva in Volozhin rather than introduce secular studies. To the best of my knowledge the Netziv was no Chosid. Rav Aharon Kotler also wanted the most minimal to no secular studies in Mesivta. And Rav Shach told American yeshivos to forgo secular studies in Mesivta.
The Agudah and both Satmar Rebbes all joined together to fight NYC on metzitza b’peh. They were B”H successful then and they’ll IY”H be successful again now.
The yeshivos do not receive funding for secular studies. New York State’s “Blaine Amendment” prevents that.December 11, 2018 2:42 am at 2:42 am #1641309
Yoder made no reference to participation in social programs and that was a non-issue in SCOTUS’ decision in that case.
Yoder is very much applicable to the Orthodox Jewish community. And it is nationally binding law of the land by Supreme Court precedent.December 11, 2018 7:54 am at 7:54 am #1641353The little I knowParticipant
I continue to gaze at this subject with amazement. What troubles me is that there is a battle to fight, but that no one seems to be doing it. The public announcements, the video clips, the media hype are just smokescreens to make the oilem goilem believe the battle is being fought. But nothing meaningful happens here on this stage.
There are two venues where this will be resolved. One is the backrooms with politicians, away from media, no cameras or microphones. The other may be the courtrooms.
Meanwhile, it is childish to believe that parading in sackcloth matters here (Mordechai Hatzaddik knew when to do that), nor do video clips help. And the large groups (blocs) need to rethink how they choose to endorse and support candidates. By definition, politicians running for office are notorious liars, and they don’t change their stripes once elected.December 11, 2018 7:56 am at 7:56 am #1641342
Joseph – The full text of the case is easily found.
In the Syllabus of the court makes 4 points. Both point 3 and 4 refer to their non-reliance on social welfare.
From Point 3:
“long history as a successful and self-sufficient segment of American society”
From Point 4:
“for the Amish have introduced convincing evidence that accommodating their religious objections by forgoing one or two additional years of compulsory education will not impair the physical or mental health of the child, or result in an inability to be self-supporting or to discharge the duties and responsibilities of citizenship, or in any other way materially detract from the welfare of society.”
In the detailed decision there are numerous references to the sufficiency of their education, but here is one quote where rejection of public welfare is clearly noted:
“The State attacks respondents’ position as one fostering “ignorance” from which the child must be protected by the State. No one can question the State’s duty to protect children from ignorance, but this argument does not square with the facts disclosed in the record. Whatever their idiosyncrasies as seen by the majority, this record strongly shows that the Amish community has been a highly successful social unit within our society, even if apart from the conventional “mainstream.” Its members are productive and very law-abiding members of society; they reject public welfare in any of its usual modern forms. The Congress itself recognized their self-sufficiency by authorizing exemption of such groups as the Amish from the obligation to pay social security taxes.”
Finally, not going to bother with the quotes here, the Amish get 1-8 education, it was the couple of years of secondary education that was the issue. Many of the Chassidic Yeshivas don’t even have a sufficient secular education at the elementary school level. Regardless, the issue of social welfare will very likely be one that the State can use to claim that they do not need to allow a religious based exemption from secular education. The Yeshivas that do put out many students who rely on social welfare, will very likely find that the Yoder case does not help them much.December 11, 2018 9:57 am at 9:57 am #1641384
99% of that applies to the Yeshiva students as well. The only difference is they don’t have a shitta to reject social services. Nevertheless, they too have a “long history as a successful and self-sufficient segment of American society” and their overall usage of social services is not materially much greater than graduates of the New York City public school system.
And the entire references to social services in the system is almost a footnote. The vast majority of the other positive attributes applied, equally apply to the Yeshiva graduates who by forgoing a portion of the additional years of compulsory education will not impair the physical or mental health of the child, or result in an inability to be self-supporting or to discharge the duties and responsibilities of citizenship, or in any other way materially detract from the welfare of society.” The yeshivos produce the most law abiding citizens productively engaged in civil society and are a highly successful social unit within our society, even if apart from the conventional “mainstream.” Especially compared to public school graduates who are far more likely to end up in prison or worse.December 11, 2018 9:58 am at 9:58 am #1641386
This will be interesting to see posters and the YWN home page editors have to decide between their perceived yeshivishness and their irrational hatred of Satmar.December 11, 2018 9:58 am at 9:58 am #1641388
Joseph, yet another example of why noone believes your supposed citatations, whether they be from halachic sources or otherwiseDecember 11, 2018 10:11 am at 10:11 am #1641404
Joseph, on the other hand talmidim in Pressburg earned an external baccalaureate in return for exemption from the draft as theological students. This stood the Orthodox in Hungary in good stead when a Pressburger was appointed Chief Rabbi. He spoke to Franz Josef in German whereas the head of the Neolog (Reform) spoke literary Hungarian, which annoyed the Emperor, who hated the Hungarian language he had to use there as part of the Dual Monarchy compromise. Rav Hirsch also insisted on a full program of secular studies (Torah im Derech Eretz). Both Rabbenu Bachya and the Gra say that one cannot be considered wise if he is not knowledgeable of the seven secular areas of wisdom (Logic, Mathematics, Ethics, Natural Science, Astronomy, Music, Theology). In order to function in a modern democracy one also needs a knowledge of the country’s history and political institutions. It goes without saying that one must be fluent in the language of the country (the Netziv, BTW, expressed regret at never having learned Russian and Rav Soloveitchik’s mother taught him Russian literature).December 11, 2018 10:38 am at 10:38 am #1641495
Didn’t the Lubavitcher Rebbe graduate from the Sorbone?December 11, 2018 10:50 am at 10:50 am #1641506Takes2-2tangoParticipant
Simple solution :
1.)Home school your kids!
2.)Dont take government help!December 11, 2018 10:53 am at 10:53 am #1641508
The seven lights of the menorah were against seven chochmas were the Torah was in the middle all facing the center because all other chochmas require the Torah knowledge e.g. the Rambam says in, shemona perokim, that illnes c’v comes from the body getting out of equilibrium. Freud’s Super Igo, Igo and Id comes from the Torah.December 11, 2018 11:14 am at 11:14 am #1641512
On second thought, the discussion only seems to be attracting those you uniformly dislike Satmar and the Yeshivish system.
You guys do realize that this situation would impact your beloved MO dayschools also, right? Imagine your 20K per year schools having to take on new expenses without any help from the state.December 11, 2018 11:23 am at 11:23 am #1641526GadolhadorahParticipant
Laskern: There appears to be confirmation that the Rebbe Z’TL received an electrical engineering from the ESTP, a Grande école in Paris in the late 1930s and that he also attended the Sorbone but I haven’t seen confirmation that he actually received a degree from the Sorbone. In any event, the point is that the Rebbe was highly educated in secular and technology matters as were many of the great rabbonim in our history.December 11, 2018 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #1641553CTLAWYERParticipant
NO, The Lubavitcher Rebbe did NOT graduate the Sorbonne. He enrolled in 1937 to study math, but left in 1939 when war broke out. In 1940 he fled to Vichy and then on to the USA in 1941.December 11, 2018 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #1641552
Neville, i mentioned elsewhere that there is a far greater danger to ALL yeshivas on the horizon. Now that the NY State Senate is under Democratic control, it looks like the Legislature is going to actually pass a bill establishing a 12 month filing period wherein the statute of limitations on filing molestation lawsuits will be waived. The newspaper article I read focused on the financial impact on the Catholic church but yeshivas will be hard hit as well ( just from the legal bills alone, let alone payouts).December 11, 2018 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #1641580
That’s hogwash. The Catholics are exposed because they demand celibacy, leading to the kind of problems prevalent with their clergy. Even the Protestants, who don’t demand celibacy, don’t have anywhere near the prevalence of the Catholics. Lhavdil elef alfei havdolos, the issue in the holy yeshivos is quite negligible.December 11, 2018 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1641608
The correlation seems to be with trusted, male role-models that oversee a lot of young boys. Coaches, for example, have also had problems with far less media interest.
Catholic nuns are also celibate, but don’t have this issue. Religious men who aren’t able to find a marriage partners end up being celibate, but don’t have this issue. It’s an immature and overly simplistic understanding of psychology to think that going too long without relations is going to cause a man to be attracted to children. These guys are mentally ill. There is no evidence that ending the celibacy requirement would cure them and make them attracted to women instead of boys.
However, I do agree that it doesn’t seem to be an issue in yeshivas. If it were found that there were a cover-up scandal at a yeshiva, I wouldn’t really feel bad for them being sued over it.December 11, 2018 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1641612
Joseph, I went to Chasidishe Yeshivas, Adas Yereim Wiener for elementary school and Chasan Sofer, HS, with proper english classes graduating with an academic degree with all the regents. I went to Brooklyn College majoring in Math and in Computers graduating with a BS degree. Afterwards, went to NYU Courant Institute in Mathematics for 12 credits.December 11, 2018 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #1641622
Joseph, the story with the Netziv closing the yeshiva was because the russian government wanted to influence the curriculum of secular education. I agrree wth Yserbius123.December 11, 2018 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1641635
As I mentioned many times that extremes are not good. If the yeshivas avoid secular education altogether, then the government will require extreme measures in secular education like six hours. They don’t want the students after they grow up to rely on welfare because they can’t find a job to support themselves sufficiently.December 11, 2018 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1641649
Re: Chas. Sofer
I heard that pipe smoking Mr. Altusky was tough on the secular dept. and the teachers there were excellent.December 11, 2018 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #1641664
Joseph, the story with the Netziv closing the yeshiva was because the russian government wanted to influence the curriculum of secular education.
Sounds similar to what the NYS DOE is proposing to now do.December 11, 2018 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1641732
I took chemistry in Chasan Sofer and asked the teacher, what is the use for this? He said to me, you are able to see the greatness of G-d. He created a small solar system in every atom. According to string theory, He imparted his energy into every atom.December 11, 2018 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #1641744The little I knowParticipant
I am far more interested in the across the board reporting to authorities and the expansion of programs to protect our children. However, I have a strong issue with the Markey bill, and it is based on the focus. The way it was proposed several times was designed to punish, not protect, not deter. That doesn’t sit well. I have no reason to protect a perpetrator,, and I sincerely believe there is no better place for one than in prison. I am not an advocate of less than life sentences for molesters. But the open season on yeshivos misses the point completely.
Firstly, the bad apples, whether faculty, menahalim, administrators, are probably long gone and replaced. We don’t know if past misdeeds and neglect (cover ups) were part of the reason for their no longer being in the employ of the yeshiva. But there should be personal liability for them, not the collective punishment of the yeshiva.
Secondly, the system believes anyone that claims victimization. The burden of proof is far less in this realm of crime, and this is also an issue. I grant that these crimes are generally committed away from spectators, and actual witness of the event is close to never. But the usual proof is the diagnosis of trauma symptoms, and this doesn’t implicate the perpetrator. Only the word of the victim. I actually know a case where someone was chased out of a career in chinuch, who was an excellent rebbe. The basis was the report of a child with trauma symptoms. A parent nailed this rebbe. The parent later recanted, with irreparable damage done. It turned out that the child had been victimized the year prior by someone else.
I support increasing the statute of limitations. Trauma often does not surface within the time allotted for court action. But the reality is that the longer time that passes shrinks the available testimony or evidence. And that needs to be tightened so that we are not just shooting at anyone. Until Markey does that, I vote with my feet to the ballot box to trash the bill.December 11, 2018 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #1641864
Joseph – Your first response to me was that the Yoder case does not mention the rejection of reliance on social services, which I provided direct quotes from the case to show that it factored into the decision (nevermind it is mentioned in 2 out of 4 points in the header). Now you start to argue that the weight this has in the decision. Unlike you, I do not have time to engage in discussions where the goalposts are moving. You obviously in your first comment, said something clearly very wrong. Your follow-up comment is also very wrong. You are welcome to find the decision in its entirety and to read it. I won’t be bothering to debate this with you.
If you were in court and these were your arguments, you would likely be engaging in frivolous litigation. What you are saying is simply nonsense.
Your other claims are nonsense as well. But as you will simply ignore inconvenient facts and change the arguments as you go along, there really is no point in debating you, unless someone is interested in endlessly showing how each argument you make is flawed.December 11, 2018 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1642110
HaRav Yisroel Reisman shlit”a, Rosh Yeshivah Torah Vodaas, released a video statement today calling upon all of Klal Yisroel — Litvish, Chasidish and modern Orthodox — to unite together in achdus to fight the New York State Department of Education.
(frumtd: Your comment is a misrepresentation of the discussion.)December 12, 2018 2:03 am at 2:03 am #1642291
1. The Netziv closed the yeshiva because the Russian government wanted to severely limit Talmud studies.
2. The Gras aid that what one lacks in secular knowledge he will lack one hundred fold in Torah.
3. Home schooling requires an approved curriculum.
4. So be like the Amish. Don’t use electricity. Don’t drive cars. Farm using a horse.December 12, 2018 2:03 am at 2:03 am #1642292
From the syllabus of Wisconsin vs. Yoder 406 U.S. 205 (1972) :
“Beyond this, they have carried the difficult burden of demonstrating the adequacy of their alternative mode of continuing informal vocational education in terms of the overall interest that the State relies on in support of its program of compulsory high school education.”
From the Lancaster County, PA website:
“After several years of debate, Amish community leaders and public officials worked out a compromise. This compromise known as the Amish Vocational Program allows for Amish youth to attend a weekly vocational school at the age of 14 after completing the eighth grade in their parochial school.”December 12, 2018 7:59 am at 7:59 am #1642311YeshivishrockstarParticipant
Didn’t the Lubavitcher Rebbe graduate from the Sorbone?
No. It’s revisionist history.December 12, 2018 8:14 am at 8:14 am #1642325TalmidchochomParticipant
It is high time that we witness some form of achdus on an issue of importance to the klal. May the rebbono shel olam look upon this development as our one step forward in our desire to witness bias hagoel…amen.December 12, 2018 8:15 am at 8:15 am #1642329
1. The NYS DOE’s new regulations demanding that yeshivos provide *7 hours a day* of secular studies also, clearly, severely limit Talmud studies.
2. The yeshivos, like in the case with the Amish, as is provide their students a proven well grounded upbringing as productive and law abiding citizens in society. More so, in fact, than the NYC public schools.December 12, 2018 8:16 am at 8:16 am #1642339Five Towns YidParticipant
Imagine if every time someone committs a crime, arrested etc they would mention they went to public school. That would be great.
Overall no system is perfect but I strongly believe we are doing WAY WAY better than the rest of the state.
Also to those who point to use of social service programs and their use. Our families on average are WAY larger. Most if not all social welfare programs use income and family size to qualify.
You can make $200k+ a year and if you have 10 kids be on practically free chiid health plus.December 12, 2018 10:22 am at 10:22 am #1642465GadolhadorahParticipant
I’m not sure there is any credible evidence that compliance with rules requiring a minimum number of “hours of instruction” in certain subject areas correlates with “performance’ on various tests or metrics for the subject areas of concern. Nor is there much evidence from anecdotal success stories about individual yungerleit who have learned in yeshivos with minimal secular instruction have nonetheless been able to achieve success in various business ventures. Perhaps the yeshivos could agree on some performance metrics that would not intrude on their ability to maintain their current programs in limudei kodesh while assuring that their graduates can function at minimal levels in secular reading, math and language skills.December 12, 2018 11:49 am at 11:49 am #1642598
The previous Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L and Rav Hutner ZT”L took classes together in gymnasium while they learnt by Rav Ezriel Hildesheimer ZT”L.December 12, 2018 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1643122Rebbe YidParticipant
The catholics have just announced that they will boycott the new regs. Can we do that?December 12, 2018 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1643396CSParticipant
I wouldn’t use the Rebbe as a pro college argument. Although the Rebbe attended college at the behest of his father in law the Frierdiker Rebbe, he was strongly against for the klal due to the spiritual dangers inherent today.
Also those saying that we should applaud it or not fight it – it depends where this push is coming from. Looking at the facts, it would seem its not because of welfare etc (as they would have to compare to the public schools where the rate isn’t better) but because they don’t like our values. Have you heard what is going on in the UK? They started with just regulating health and safety… And now they’re pushing lgbt education. When the motivation is wrong you give a finger and they take a hand. And here they’re not even pretending to start with a finger. I watched the clip of the RY of Torah Vodaas today – he is so right. We need to unite around this and not think that its only for the more extreme. This is looking to target ALL Torah education. Coming from Chanukah the message couldn’t be clearer.
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