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In last week’s parsha, Moshe Rabbeinu criticizes 2 tribes for not wanting to fight for the Land.
How is that different from the chareidim who refuse to join the IDF and fight for our Land?
Inquiring minds want to know.Very easy. By Moshe Rabbeinu we were fighting for the Jewish Eretz Yisroel.
Over here they’re fighting for the secular, anti-Torah, anti-Jewish, heretic Medinat so-called “Israel”, that was born in mamzeirus and is halacicly an illegitimate state.
I’m sure you knew all this already but you’re so knee-deep in Israeli idol-worship that you’re blinded by it.
In parshas Beshalach, Yisro, Ki Sisa, Vayakhel, Kedoshim, Shelach, and Voeschanan, Moshe Rabbeinu criticized people who drive on shabbos. How is that different from the chilonim who refuse to join the chareidim and keep shabbos? To put it differently, what should be the Jewish people’s priority be now? Forcing the chilonim to keep all the mitzvos or forcing the chareidim to enlist in the IDF? Which mitzvah is more chomur? Or in other words, is this about being ???? ???? ?? ????? for the observance of mitzvos, or is there a different motive behind those who are constantly criticizing the chareidim?
@yechiell
With Moshe, G-d said fight that war.With the Zionists (may they be quickly destroyed, amen), G-d said don’t fight that war and don’t have anything to do with evil people that do fight wars.
Hmmm
How is it different from those today who refuse to join Hamas or PIJ to fight for the land??
Bamidbar, chapter 32, verse 6:
Moshe replies to the Tribe of Gad and the Tribe of Reuven:
“Shall your brothers come to war while you remain here?”
__________________________________________In Tanach, Sefer Shoftim, [the Book of Judges] chapter 5,
the Prophetess Deborah [Devorah HaNeviyah],
sings a Divinely-inspired song.In chapter 5, verses 12 to 16, the Prophetess Deborah
publicly praises those Jews who fought against the enemies of Israel.Then she publicly REBUKES those Jews who
did NOT join the fight against the enemies of Israel.__________________________________________
Tanach, Nechemiah, chapter 4, verse 8:
“And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles,
and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people:
‘Be not afraid of them!Remember HaShem, who is great and awesome,
and FIGHT FOR YOUR BROTHERS, your sons
and your daughters, your wives and your houses!’”__________________________________________
Babylonian Talmud, tractate Sanhedrin, page 72A:
“If you see someone coming to kill you,
then arise and kill him first.”PERSONAL COMMENT:
In our time, Hamas and Hezbollah are coming to kill us.
For Jews to arise and kill them first is not merely permitted,
it is required by Torah Law.__________________________________________
Shulchan Aruch, chelek Orach Chaim, Siman 329, Sif 6:
???”? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ????
??? ?? ??? ????? ????’ ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ?? ????
????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ????
??? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? [?”?]:(6) Regarding non-Jews who besiege Jewish cities:
If they come for money, we do not desecrate the Shabbat [to protect ourselves],
but if they came to kill or come with no presented reason,
we go out with weapons and desecrate the Shabbat.
In a city that is near the border, even if they just come for straw or hay,
we desecrate the Shabbat.Rema: Even if they haven’t come but they want to come (Or Zarua).
__________________________________________
Rambam, Hilchot Shabbat, chapter 2, paragraph 23:
[The following rules apply] when gentiles lay siege to Jewish cities:
If their intent was financial gain, then Shabbat laws
should not be violated because of them,
nor are we allowed to wage war against them.If a city is located near the border, however, we should march
against them with weapons and wage war against them,
even when they are [merely] demanding hay or straw.In any location, if the gentiles’ intent was [to harm] Jewish lives,
or if they engaged in battle with a city or laid siege to it,
without stating a specific intention, we must wage war against them
and the Shabbat laws should be violated because of them.It is a mitzvah for every member of the Jewish people
who can come [to their assistance] to go out and
help their brothers who are under siege and save them
from the gentiles [even on] Shabbat.
It is forbidden to delay until after Shabbat.After they [the Jewish soldiers] saved their brothers,
they [the Jewish soldiers] may return home with
their weapons [even] on Shabbat, so that
a dangerous situation will not be created in the future.______________________________________________________________
Once full-scale war broke out after the State of Israel
declared its existence on May 14, 1948 [CE]
Reb Shraga Feivel’s [Mendlowitz] thoughts
were never far from Eretz Yisrael.A group of students saw him outside the Mesivta building one day,
talking excitedly with Rabbi Gedaliah Schorr and
gesticulating rapidly with the newspaper held in his hand.“If I were your age,” he told the students,
“I would take a gun and go to Eretz Yisrael.”SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
the architect of Torah in America (chapter 26, page 338) by Yonoson Rosenblum
for Artscroll / Mesorah, year 2001, based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana,
ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965______________________________________________________________
Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan [ZTL ZYA] said this in his HANDBOOK OF
JEWISH THOUGHT, volume II, chapter 3, paragraph 24, top of page 23:“Experience has shown us that when Jews
are not ready to defend and die for their fellows,
an even greater number are killed in the end.”______________________________________________________________
Rabbi Steven Pruzansky [an Orthodox Rabbi who made aliyah] said:
“The IDF [Israeli Army] soldier fulfills three mitzvot
that cannot be fulfilled by the soldier in any other army:the settlement (Yishuv) of Eretz Yisrael,
preserving Jewish life (Pikuach Nefesh),
and Kiddush HaShem, the sanctification of G-d’s Name,
implicit in the Jewish people exercising sovereignty over our homeland.”SOURCE: Ask the Rabbi, Part 22 by Rabbi Steven Pruzansky
2023 August 18 from www (dot) RabbiPruzansky (dot) comI don’t think you read the same parsha as me. Also, please read Sefer Yehoshua. The Tribes of Gad and Reuben both fought in the battles to conquer the land and even stayed an extra 7 years, helping out until Joshua finished dividing up the land among the other tribes.
Its no way similar to now days.
yechiell:
By Moshe Rabbeinu, G-d explicitly instructed the Jews then to go up and conquer the land. The plan was that they would do so without any war, like when they blew the shofar around Jericho and the walls came down, etc. As well, his army consisted of only supremely righteous Jews, never mind that the high spiritual level of a typical Jew then is unimaginable to us today. As Chazal say, even a maidservant at the sea saw greater spiritual visions than did Yechezkel the prophet.As opposed to today, Zionism is itself a gross rebellion against G-d (unlike Moshe Rabbeinu, of course) and the Zionist army is designed expressly to shmad Jews and is a den of all three of the inviolable sins, A”Z, giluy arayos and shifachas damim.
For starters. So, it’s not even a question.
Shazsheri: Excellent comment.
Yasher Koach!
We should be asking more important questions:
Why isn’t the state of Israel fighting for Torah, as commanded?
???? ????? ?? ????? ??????
Wow yechiel and Aaq posted the same shtus
Did you guys fight?
There was always a core group sitting in learning and not heading to battle. At that time it happened to have been shevet Levi. Moshe himself was from that shevet. When he criticized bnei gad ubnei reuven , they didnt respond with : “hypocrite, your own shevet sits back and reads these books all day while others must fight your battles and put our lives at risk? Why should we do it?”
That wasnt even something they would think of because it was a given that the zechus Hatoirah was necessary. Halevai that would be understood these days.
This episode of Bnei gad ubnei reuven that everyone loves to quote as proof that we should draft the bnei hayeshivos ,is ironically a raaye farkert..doe> The Tribes of Gad and Reuben both fought in the battles to conquer the land and even stayed an extra 7 years,
Exactly, whether their original statement was clumsy and they planned to go fight or whether they accepted tochacha from Moshe, they joined the rest of AM Israel, while keeping their pastures. So, it is not late for those sitting out now to join tzahal and then return to their studies.
Those who start immediately arguing about different matzav are right of course, but you need first to accept Moshe’s argument of responsibility for your brothers whatever other issues are out there.
The reason not to join the Israeli army is because the decisions are made by secular politicians, lawmakers and judges, a Torah Jew has no right to place his life in the hands of secular decision makers who send soldiers to die en masse instead of carpet bombing from the air. All other reasons and discussions are mere attempts to distract attention from the plain and simple truth. In the army of a genuine Malchus Yisroel Torah Jews will be the first to join like Matisyahu Kohen Gadol and his sons.
The biggest enemy of the Jewish nation today is not Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah or anyone else. The biggest enemy today is the Israeli Supreme Court who are the enablers and supporters of the terrorists. Every day they brutally send thousands of soldiers to die. A true Jewish army fights against these wicked people not for them!
If you still believe that Agudath Israel of America,
and the Gedolim they represent, are not pro-Israel,
then please read this news article:Yeshivah World News said this:
“Agudath Israel appreciates the administration’s longstanding
support for Israel, including supplying the Iron Dome
so Israel may defend itself – as Israel was forced
to do just last month when Iran directly launched
the largest military drone attack in history.”SOURCE: article titled: “Agudath Israel Blasts
White House’s Unprecedented Decision to Cease
Supplying Certain Arms to Israel”
2024 May 9 by The Yeshiva World [News]Maybe there were some differences between the army of Yehoshua bin Nun and, ?????? ??? ???? ??????, the IDF?
1. No girls.
2. No chilonim.
3. No singles. (The draft age was 20, being single after 20 subjects one to condition number 4…)
4. No ???? of any kind, ????????, or ?????, or ???? ?? ???? ?????, up to and including interrupting between ?????? ?? ?? and ?? ???…
5. No Kohanim and Leviim.
6. Probably no one currently in the IDF, or in the Yeshivos for that matter, would make the grade.
??? ???? ????, so how do we make an army now? Well, that’s a very good question. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the concept of a “Jewish Army” as described in Tanach and ????? ????? of the Rambam. Nothing. Zero.
Yechiell said – Why does this forum allow anti-Zionists to spew forth their vile hatred?
Are you new to this site? What did you think would happen when you threw out a potentially provocative question? (Which happens to be incorrect, regardless of your position on Zionism itself.)
I have a better question. Why does this forum allow some commenters to “spew forth” anti-Yeshivish attitudes and content while calling itself “Yeshivah World News”? I am not a fan of ‘ujm’ or ‘somejew’ type screeds, but at least this isn’t “Zionist World News”, so their comments don’t directly contradict the stated purpose of the site. Some of the anti-Chareidi comments I have seen here would be offensive to many ‘Traditional’ non-Chareidi Israelis…
@always_ask_questions
I won’t give my opinion on whether they should join the IDF or not.
However, I will say a fact that the current IDF does not have enough equipment for the current people in the IDF I don’t think it is the best idea to recruit more if they cannot adequately take care of the current army that they have.AAQ said – Those who start immediately arguing about different matzav are right of course, but you need first to accept Moshe’s argument of responsibility for your brothers whatever other issues are out there.
So come here and join. We’re waiting for you… If you really believe what you say, then why is living in America a bigger ???? to ‘shirk responsibility’ than concern about real Halacha and Hashkafa issues is? If this is a ??? ????? issue, so why are you (and all the other big talkers in America) less obligated than the boys who happen to live here?
LOL. The IDF isn’t Moshe Rabbeinu’s army. Not by a long shot.
duvid > biggest enemy today is the Israeli Supreme Court
you are illustrating what was happening, say, in 1920s Poland – where Jews (and Poles also) were involved in fighting between different subgroups – while ignoring two evil superpowers on their borders.
As to the army run by secular politicians – you probably live in a democratic country where majority makes the rules, whether it is Israel or US. Alternatives to democracies exist, if you are willing to live in Iran/China/Russia/Saudi Arabia. If not, you need to follow halocha and follow the rules of the country. It is normal for every country to have an army to defend against the enemies. And it is up to you to vote the right politicians, convince other people in the country to vote same way as you do be seeing how righteous you are, and by making the army more religious, including the leaders.
yechiell:
Zionism is diametrically opposed to the Torah and Judaism. That is a simple fact.
A much better question, then, would be why this site allows “Religious Zionist” idolaters to spew their idolatry. After all, this site calls itself Yeshiva World News, not Mizrachi World News.Chazit > There was always a core group sitting in learning and not heading to battle
That’s a good argument, not ignoring Moshe’s words! Now the question is – can one self-select himself as a shevet Levi? Maybe let’s not discuss shevet Levi of those times, but look at more appropriate models: say, Zevulun-Issahar, when one learns and one works and they share schar. It is a contract, signed by both parties.
Why not pair someone who learns with someone who goes to the army, where they both appreciate the value of learning? I presume DL community will be able to do that within their own families. Presuming you are a chareidi – could you find a soldier who will be willing to join you in this partnership? Maybe you can increase your ties – you can help deliver supplies ot the army and share some of your learning when you meet.
Chazit35
Rabbi Akiva brought in the Medarash brought by Rashi on Chumash argues on you..:
???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? (????? ???”?) ?? ????? (????? ??, ?) ????? ????????? ????? ????????? ????? ??????? ?????????? ??????????? ????????. “??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???”
Always_Ask_Questions:
Nope. Even that argument doesn’t apply. The wicked Zionists invaded the holy land against the will of the Jews there (the chareidim). The Jews there (chareidim), therefore, have zero responsibility to help out the Zionists in their endless wars. If anything, the wicked Zionists (as they agreed to Agudah when they declared “independence”) need to treat the chareidim as a protected class.David,
I’ve asked this question before. If the US reinstated a draft, how would you evade ? Canada? With regard to Israel, you can’t have it both ways. If it’s not a Jewish government, you can’t
refuse to serve if drafted by claiming a status of sitting and learning@anonymous-jew you wrote:
With regard to Israel, you can’t have it both ways. If it’s not a Jewish government, you can’t
refuse to serve if drafted by claiming a status of sitting and learningThe only reason a Jew listens to any non-Jewish government is because our Torah teaches us to. Our only obligation is to Hashem, so only if He tells us to do something do we do it.
If the Torah says a certain government is NOT legitimate it does NOT teach us to follow its laws.
This is very common in the laws of shmad, where there is an explicit rejection of any “dinei dmalchsei dine” when the government is actively challenging our Torah obligations.
AJ: The US army has offered conscientious objective status to not joining the army as well as religious seminary exemptions. Even at time of war, such as during Vietnam.
> invaded the holy land against the will of the Jews there (the chareidim).
Eida Charedit (that is not the same as large number of current haredim) was located at a couple of places under Turks. They did not control the country.
And I am personally fine if you want to separate from the country as Neturei Karta and live under your own protection. As far as I know none of Roshei Yeshivos hold by this and reside in the areas covered by Iron Dome.@SQUARE_ROOT according to that if a country attacks America or wherever you live you should go sign up for the army
AAQ:
“> invaded the holy land against the will of the Jews there (the chareidim).Eida Charedit (that is not the same as large number of current haredim) was located at a couple of places under Turks. They did not control the country.
And I am personally fine if you want to separate from the country as Neturei Karta and live under your own protection. As far as I know none of Roshei Yeshivos hold by this and reside in the areas covered by Iron Dome.”No, of course they did not control the country; it was first under Turkish rule, then under British rule via the UN until the Zionist fought and terrorized the British into leaving and refused the UN’s wish to start a new mandate when the Zionists declared their “independence”. Either way, the Zionists invaded against the will of the Jews there, as mentioned before, and Rav YCC Sonnenfeld who led the Jews there did not want the Zionists to represent the Jews, which is why the Zionists murdered Dr. DeHaan, HY”D. Because Zionism comes before Jewish lives, as the Zionists amply demonstrated during (and before and after) the Holocaust.
Your “suggestion” seems odd. Obviously, they all live under whatever conditions the Zionist invaders provide, whether that is the Iron Dome or anything else. The Jews there have no choice in that matter unless they were to move out of the country. But it is the Zionists who invaded against the will of the Jews living there, as mentioned, so it is the Zionists who need to leave the Jews alone and also not impoverish them and let them work like in every normal country without requiring the Jews to convert to Zionism in the Zionist shmad army first. It’s really not complicated.
HaKatan > Obviously, they all live under whatever conditions the Zionist invaders provide, whether that is the Iron Dome or anything else.
I have an idea for you to demonstrate your principles. Iron Dome’s munitions are expensive – and Arrow (against larger missiles) are even more expensive.
So, the way system works – it evaluates where the missile is flying and if that area is empty, then no interceptors are sent out. So, you can simply make an agreement with the Tzahal that your areas should be considered a midbar (as Chazon Ish said) and not requiring protection by Iron Dome. You can post signs on the streets – under divine protection, no iron dome.> and let them work like in every normal country
work a good start, I am glad we are coming to a common point. But draft is also a normal thing. US had draft after to the 1970s, and Jews were drafted, although college students had deferral. I don’t know whether BMG qualified. Did it? Is Tzahal kashrus below the standard of US Army?
AAQ:
You still don’t seem to understand.The Zionists invaded against the will of the Jews there, and destroyed the peace of the Jews there, over a century ago. If anything, the Zionists should prioritize protecting the chareidim, because the Zionists are the ones who ruined their peaceful existence there over a century ago. (Yes, if you ask about the Chevron Massacre then you obviously are ignorant of history, because that, too, was a result of – not despite – Zionism, as Rav Baruch Kaplan and others noted).
No, having a draft is not a normal thing, at least not in most of the world. And, again, as the Chazon Ish told David Green, the first Zionist “Prime Minister”, if not for the Zionists, there would have been no need for any army there.
So, the Zionists are the ones who chose to invade against the will of the Jews there; therefore, the Zionists cannot make the chareidim try to clean up the cataclysmic mess the Zionists made. As well, specifically regarding lomdei Torah, the Zionists made a deal with Agudah that Torah learners would not be drafted. The wicked Zionists may not renege on their deal.
We are not guided by G-d directly from a prophet so you can’t say oh this is what G-d wants and fallow it without thinking so I wouldn’t put it in the same category simply cuz the circumstances are different. I think tho each person needs to ask himself what G-d wants from him and what he is called to do maybe in that sense it would be similar
DuvidF – The Sifri you quote proves the opposite – ONLY in ????? ???? did ??? ??? participate, NEVER in any other war, and we need a special ???? to teach us that THAT ONE TIME ??? ??? was also included. The ??????? discuss why, mainly because ????? ???? was a ??????? battle to avenge the ???? ????, similar to the story of Chanukah, which is the only other historical military campaign of ??? ????? where ??? ??? participated and led.
It’s a general rule in Shas, that whenever a special ???? or ???? is necessary, it is to teach an EXCEPTION, not the normative rule.
> No, having a draft is not a normal thing, at least not in most of the world.
are you that stubborn that you require documentation on every statement? Nordics, Baltics, Greece, Turkey, Koreas, Ukraine have draft. US registers males in case it needs to go back to the draft. It depends on the current matzav in a country.
> if not for the Zionists, there would have been no need for any army there.
Almost every country in middle east was not involved in bloody wars and revolutions during last 80 years. Non-muslims are gone from most of those countries. Chazon Ish did not know that, you do.
And you can always change that, of course – maybe muslims will be thrilled to sponsor anti-zionist dhimmies. Go.> Zionists made a deal with Agudah that Torah learners would not be drafted. The wicked Zionists may not renege on their deal.
Is this the fourth of 3 shevuos?! Israel is a democracy and current knesses can vote for different laws, subject to basic laws. And, if you read what gedolim say – the 4th oath is extended, midrabanan? – to those who are not learning but dress like them.
The US has draft deferrals, including during war time such as Vietnam, for religious seminary students as well as for general conscientious objectors.
thanks, ujm, pls convince katan that drafts are real. We can then discuss how US law will deal with a deferral request based on undocumented yeshiva attendance.
AAQ:
Again, “having a draft is not a normal thing, at least not in most of the world.”, regardless of “documentation”.
The rest of your post is incomprehensible.Ujm: Charedim are not conscientious objectors, nor are they “religious seminary students”. No, they’re draft dodgers, they know it and everyone else does as well.
By the way, if you didn’t respond to the selective service card you received at age 18, you’re a draft dodger by US law, you’ve committed a felony and can be liable for 250,000 USD in fines and possibly jail time.
Yaakov Yosef:
You have taken ONE side that claims a huge chiddush with little support.
Below is an essay proving exactly the opposite.
Regardless, the entire discussion would only apply to a BIOLOGICAL LEVI, any applying of Levi status and priviliges to NON BIOLOGICAL LEVIIM is a total FABRICATION with no source at all. ANY NON BIOLGICAL LEVI WHO EATS TRUMA OR MAASER NO MATTER HOW MUSH TORAH HE LEARNS VIOLATES TORAH COMMANDMENTS.??? ????”? ??:
[?] ?? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ????, ??? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ?????, ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????.
[??] ???? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????? ???, ??? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????.
[??] ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ????, ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?’ ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ?????, ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????. ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????, ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?’ ????, ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??????.
[??] ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?’ ????? ??????? ???? ?? ?’ ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????, ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?’ ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???”? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?????, ??? ??? ?”? ???? ?’ ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????.
?. ????? ??????? ?? ???? ????”?
???? ????”? ??????, ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????:1) ????? ????? ???? ????”? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????, ??? ????”? ???? ???? ?????? ????? (?”? ?”?):
??? ????? ?????? ???????? ????? ??? ?????? ??????, ?????? ?????, ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??????.
?????”? ????? (??, ?”? ?”?):
…??? ?? ??? ????? ????, ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?????… ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ??????? ?????.
???? ??????? ?????, ???? ????? ????? ???? – ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ??, ????? ??? ???? ?????, ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ????: ‘??? ???? ????? ??? ???’. ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????. ?? ?? ????, ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???, ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????, ????? ??????? ????? ?? ??? ????.
??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????”? ???? ??? ?????? ????, ?????, ??? ????, ??? ??? ??? ??? ??????, ??? ?? ??? ???? ??????, ??? ????? ????”? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??. ?? ????? ????”? (??, ?”? ?”?):
?????? ?? ??????, ?????? ??? ?????? ????, ???? ????? ???? ????, ????? ?????? ???? ?????, ????? ?????? ??????, ?? ????? ????? ??????, ???? ????.
??? ??? ????”? ????? ??? (??, ?”? ?”?):
????? ??? ??????? ????? ????”? ??????? ????? ???, ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ????… ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ????… ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??????…
????? ?????? ??? ??????? ????? ?????????: ??? ???? ??????, ??? ????? ?????? ??????, ??? ??? ???? ????. ???? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ????, ???? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ?? ?????? ????, ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????,[2] ???? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ?????? ?? ???! ??? ??? ?? ????, ???? ????”? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ????, ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????, ????? ????: ????? ????? ????”? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????”? ????????’?? ??? ??? ????, ??? ???? ??”?.
2) ????? ?”? (??’ ????”? ??) ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?’. ??? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????, ???? ????? ????, ???????? ??????? ??? ?? ??????? ???????. ????? ??? ????? ?”? ???? ????”? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????, ???? ???????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???????? ??????? ???? ????? ??????!
3) ???? ???? ????”? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????, ??? ?????? ????? ???????????
4) ?????? ????? (?”?, ?”?) ????? ????”? ?? ???? ???? ??????: ‘?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???”, ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???????. ???? ?????? ?? ????”? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???, ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ?????? ???????
?. ????? ?????? ???????? ????? ????”?
???? ‘??? ???? ?? ????? ???’ ?? ????? ????? ?????, ?????? ???? ????? ????? (??”? ??”?), ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??”?. ???? ???? ??? ???.[3]?? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????. ?????? ????? ???? ??????, ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????. ?? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ‘??? ????’, ???? ‘????? ???????’ ????? ???? ???’.[4] ????? ?????? ????, ??? ????? ???? ????? ????”? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????![5]
???? ‘???? ???'[6] ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??????. ?????? ??? ??????, ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??, ??? ???????, ????? ?????? ?????? ??, ??? ?????? ???????? ??? ???????. ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?????. ????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ???, ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????.
?) ?? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ??????, ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????.?) ???? ???, ??????? ????? ????? ??????? ???? – ??? ?? ??? – ???? ??????. ?? ??? ??”? (???? ?? ?”?): ‘?????? ???? ????? ???? ????… ???? ??? ???? – ????? ????? ????? ????’. ?? ???? ?? ??????? ???”? (?????? ?? ?”?):
?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????… ?????? ??? ???????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??.
?????, ?? ???”? ?? ??????? ???”?, ??? ???? ????? ????. ??? ??? ?? ???”? (????? ?, ??):
????”? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?????, ?????? ?????? ?’ ??? ????. ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??????, ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ??????. ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?????.
????? ?? ????? ??????, ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???????? ?????.
?) ??????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ????? – ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????[7] ??? ??????? ??????? ????,[8] ??? ???? ?????? ??.[9]
?) ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ?????? (??? ??’ ??????? ???????), ???? ????? ??? ???. ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????, ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?????.
?? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? (????? ?? ????? ?):
??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????… ?? ?”? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????, ????? ?? ???? ?? ???.?????? ??? ??? ?’ ??? ???? ?’????? ???? ??? ??’ (???? ????, ????? ???):[10]
??? ???? – ????? ??? ??? ??? ????, ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????, ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???, ???”? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???????? ??? ??? ??????, ????? ??”? ????”? ??? ?”? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?????, ?”? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?’ ??????? ?? ??.
???? ???”? ?? ????? (??’ ??), ?????? ????? ‘????? ??? ???’ ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????, ??? ?? ???? ???????? ??????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ?????, ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????: ‘??? ???? ??? ???? ?????, ????? ??? ???’. ??? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ??????:
?) ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ????”? ????, ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?????, ???? ????? ????.[11]
?) ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????: ‘??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ???’ – ?? ??? ???”?. ??? ???? ?? ??? ??????? ???????: ???? ??????? (????? ?????? ?????) ??? ??? ?? ????. ??? ????, ?? ????? ??????? ‘?????’, ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??????, ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ‘?????’ ??????? ????”?[12] ??? ‘????? ????’,[13] ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???????, ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ??????. ???, ????? ??????? ????? ????? ?? ??????.
???? ??? ???? ??????? (????? ??) ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?????, ???????:
???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???, ??? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??????. ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????????, ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????.
??? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ?????:
?) ????? ???? ????????, ??????, ?? ?????, ???? ??? ??? ???????. ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ‘?????’ ?? ??? ???, ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????; ??? ??? ???? ‘??????’ ?? ??? ???, ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ?????. ?? ?? ??, ????? ????? ???? ????? ????????.
?) ??????? ???? ????, ??????, ????? ????. ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?????, ???? ??”? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??????! ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???, ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????, ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???, ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????. ??? ???, ???? ??? ??? ???????, ????? ????? ??? ?? ?????.
?’???? ????'[14] ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ??????? ?? ??????, ??? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ????. ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? (?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????), ???? ?????? ??????. ??? ????? ?? ?????:
?) ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????”? ????, ?’???’, ???? ??? ???, ?????? ?????? ????? – ?????? ????? ?? ??????.?) ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?????, ????? ?? ?????, ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????, ???? ??? ??”? ???? ????? ????????[15]
???? ‘??? ????”?'[16] ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??????, ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???????. ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????:
?) ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???’ ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???????, ?? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????, ?? ?????? ???? ???????, ??”? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??????) ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??????, ????? ????, ?? ???? ????”? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ????.
???”? ??”? ??? ??????? ‘???? ???'[17] ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ????. ?????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????”? ????, ?????? ????? ????? ??”?, ???? ??:
…????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????, ??? ?? ??? ???…????? ????”? ???? ????, ???? ?????? ???? ????. ??? ?????? ??, ???? ????”? ???:
?) ????? ? (??) ??? ????”? ?? ‘?? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ????, ??? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ?????…’. ????”? ??? ???? ?????? ???: ??? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ??????. ??? ?? ????? ??: ‘???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???????’, ??? ???? ??????: ??????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???’!
?) ?????? ????? (?”? ?”?) ????”? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????, ???? ??? ???, ???? ???? (?? ?”? ?”?) ?? ?? ????? ????? ????!
?) ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ????”? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?’ (???? ??), ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???????, ?”? ???? ????”? (???? ??) ???? ??? ???? ????? ???”?, ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ??????
???? ???? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?’ ???’, ?? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??’, ??? ??? ????? ??????. ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???, ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???, ??? ?? ???? ??????, ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ????. ???, ?? ????? ?? ???, ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?????, ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???, ?????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????, ?”? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???’ ??? ???? ???????
??? ???? ???????? ??? ????? ‘??? ?????’ (??’ ????”? ??”? ??”?) ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ??????, ??? ?? ????? ??????, ???? ?????? ??? ?’??? ??? ??? ????’ ????? ?? ????? ??????. ???, ?? ?? ????? ?? ?????:
?) ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????”? ???? ???????? ?? ????, ???? ??? ???, ???? ?????? ???????) ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?????, ???? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ????. ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? (???? ?2) ??????.
?) ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??????, ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???????, ?”? ??? ????: ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????, ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ???, ??? ??? ?? ???? ???, ????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? – ???, ????? ????.
?) ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???????.
??? ????”? ????????’?? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ?????? ??????, ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???. ????? ??? ??? ????? ??????, ???? ?????? ?????, ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????, ??? ??? ?????? ????’, ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????, ???? ???? ????? ?? ?????: ?????, ??????, ?????? ????. ????? ?? ???? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????????? ???????. ????? ??? ?? ???????, ????? ???, ?? ????? ??????? ????. ?? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????, ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??????. ????? ???? ????? ????”? ?????? ????? ??????? ?’???? ?????? ????? ???? ?????’ – ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????, ????? ????, ??? ???? ‘????? ?????? ????? ???’. ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? (????? ? ?”?):
??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? – ??? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??????? ?????. ??”? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ??? (??????? ?? ?”?) ??????? ?????? ?? ?????…????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ??????, ??? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?????.
????”? ???, ??? ?’??? ????’ (??”? ??”?):
????? ???”? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????, ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ??? ????? ?? ???, ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ?????, ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?’ ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?’ ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???.???? ??? ???, ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???????, ???? ?????? ????. ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????. ?????, ??????? ?????? ?? ??????? ?????? ???????, ??? ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ?’. ??? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ??????, ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????. ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????”? ?????? (?”? ?”?):
??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????, ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ?????.
????”? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??????, ????? ??????. ?) ????? ?????, ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????, ??? ???? ????? ????, ????? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ?”? ?? ?? ?????? ???. ?) ????? ?????, ???? ???? ?????, ?? ??? ?? ?? ?”? ?? ???? ?????? ??????. ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????????. ?????? ?? ??? ?????, ???? ?????? ????? ????????, ?? ?? ???? ??? ????, ??? ??? ????????? ??????? ??????. ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???.
?????
??? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???????: ?? ?? ????”? ????????’?? ??? ?? ????”? ???. ???? ?????, ??? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ????. ?? ??? ???? ???? ??????: ????”? ????????’?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????????, ???? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????. ????? ??? ???? ????”? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ???????.[18] ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ????”?:?) ??? ?? ????? ????? ????”?. ??? ?? ??????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????, ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?????, ????”? ?????? ???????? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ??????, ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????, ????? ????’, ?? ?? ?????? ??????? ??????.
?) ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????, ???????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????.
?) ???? ???? ????”? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?????. ???? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ?????, ??? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??????, ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?????. ?? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ??????, ?? ??? ??? ????, ?? ?????? ??????.
?) ??? ??????, ??? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??’, ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ??”?, ??? ?? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ?????. ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ????? ??????? ???????, ?? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ??? ??????, ?? ?????? ???? ????? (‘?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?????’ ???’), ?? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???’. ??? ????? ????? (????? ??? ????? ???):
????? ?’ ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?????… ????? ?’ ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?????. ??? ???? ?????? – ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????.
????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??”?, ??????? ????? ??????? ???? ?????.
???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????”? (????? ????? ?????, ?? ??”?): ‘??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????…’ – ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?????.
ZSK > By the way, if you didn’t respond to the selective service card you received at age 18, you’re a draft dodger by US law, you’ve committed a felony and can be liable for 250,000 USD in fines and possibly jail time.
Right, so according to shitato: every charedi needs to register with the draft first and then bring proofs of their exemption.
@AAQ – Yes, exactly.
@aaq
draft for haredim was duly legislated and appeared on the books .
It was the unelected SC which illegally nullified this law.
There have no legal power to nullify laws.
Which created the current anarchy.
.DuvidF – Shkoyach Reb Noach, so, if you like, erase point #5. That is the least relevant of the issues I raised, since I was in fact referring to ‘biological’ Kohanim and Leviim. I deliberately didn’t raise the issue of drafting ?????? ????? or ????? ?????, to avoid endless debate on who qualifies for those terms. (That there is a prohibition on drafting ?????? ????? is quite clear, but not necessary or even relevant for our purposes.) The main problem with the IDF is ????? ?????, along with a host of other issues, which are issues even for ‘Dati’ soldiers, of whom approximately 20% go OTD, (down from 50% decades ago…), but their leaders ‘religious’ devotion to the Medinah and the IDF overrides these concerns.
ZSK said – Charedim are not conscientious objectors, nor are they “religious seminary students”. No, they’re draft dodgers, they know it and everyone else does as well.
A ‘conscientious objector’ in the Western legal sense is usually someone opposed to the entire concept of war for religious or ideological reasons. Chareidi opposition to serving in the IDF is clearly based on religious and ideological reasons, whether you agree with them or not. If living the Chareidi lifestyle is so easy, and it’s worth it just to get out of the pesky draft (for laziness’s sake of course, no ideology to see here…), so why don’t the RZ and Chilonim join Chareidi Yeshivos and live the good life? ??? ???, you know yourself that what you are saying is nonsense, and the whole Chareidi position isn’t ‘worth it’ from any point of view other than religious/ideological, except that you strongly disagree with their ideology, so TO YOUR MIND they are ‘draft dodgers’, even though if you want to be honest with yourself you have to admit that ??????? it would be much easier for them to just ‘go with the flow’ RZ style (as some weaker ones do, that actually is the exception that proves the rule.)
AAQ said – Right, so according to shitato: every charedi needs to register with the draft first and then bring proofs of their exemption.
That’s exactly what they do… You should familiarize yourself with the subject more if you really want to weigh in with an opinion. Why you would need to have an opinion altogether when you live in ??? ???? is a different ????, one that I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer to…
For everyone, pro-Medinah and anti:
1. Chareidi opposition to service in the IDF in its present form doesn’t have anything to do with ‘Zionism’. It is primarily due to ???? ????? ???? (the basis of a ‘Jewish Army’), and even honest RZ admit that is true.
2. Any meaningful efforts to change the IDF to an extent that would genuinely meet Chareidi standards are impossible without total reform of the judicial junta dictatorship that de facto controls Israel, as well as undoing the last 30 years of legislative and judicial precedents WRT ‘gender integration’. This might actually happen when Chareidim eventually become a majority of the population.
3. Whatever course Chareidi Jewry takes will be charted by ????? ?????, who know better than me and you. Those who think they know better will anyway do what they want. (No need to roll out the rusty old tropes about the Holocaust and the Medinah and yadda yadda. You can do what you want without being ???? yourself to me or the lamppost.) Hashem will do what He wants. Far enough forward it will be clear in hindsight who was right. ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????
Yaakov Yosef A:
“1. Chareidi opposition to service in the IDF in its present form doesn’t have anything to do with ‘Zionism’. It is primarily due to ???? ????? ???? (the basis of a ‘Jewish Army’), and even honest RZ admit that is true.”
Although your reason is true, and a non-starter, the opposition is even more basic: Zionism is shmad and their army is the chief instrument of that shmad.Zionism is idolatrous and heretical (godless) nationalism, and (not merely adding on to, which would be terrible as it is but) redefining Judaism and Jew into Zionism and Zionist. The Zionist army is one major way in which the wicked Zionists accomplish that shmad.
@YYA:
1) The Knesset passed a law that everyone, including Charedim, needs to serve. That should be the end of it. The HCJ had no business declaring the law unconstitutional and sending it back to the Knesset for more pointless debate.
2) Per your definition, Charedim do not qualify as “conscientious objectors” since they aren’t opposed to the concept of war. If they were the majority, post-October 7th they would have waged war per Halacha and the war would have ended far sooner. They don’t want to serve on ideological grounds that to the non-Charedi majority boils down to cultural preservation, not opposition to the concept of war.
3) Like you said, the objection is based on ???? ????? ???? (Not “Shmad”). I don’t disagree with this and I’ve said so on more than one occasion on this forum. However, I do not consider such a good enough reason for Charedi and RZ men to not serve (women shouldn’t be serving in any combat capacity, period, if at all). I believe and think that rather than constantly threatening to bring down governments and cause elections because the Gerrer Rebbe is specifically trying to prevent his grandson from being drafted, the Charedi leadership should be making real attempts to work with the IDF to make service possible rather than shutting down all attempts with nary a second thought. Compromise is absolutely necessary.
4) It is patently obvious that the entire situation is a problem (putting it very mildly) because the entire government needs fundamental reform – our current AG, the HCJ and the so-called anti-reform protests (actually just expanded “We hate Bibi” protests from the Covid-19 era) – are prime examples of the problem. I don’t believe there is need to undo everything the Knesset and HCJ has done.
5) I have never said that the Charedi lifestyle is easy. My belief: Let Charedi men do basic training, then get jobs and do a week or two of Miluim here and there. The Batei Midrash may empty out to some degree, but those who are actually dedicated to learning and not wasting their time hanging around stores in Bnei Brak (where I lived for 7 years and saw this daily) will remain and should receive a government stipend at a level minimally equal to a freshman MK or Dayan.
6) You’re overlooking the power politics at play here – specifically the power Shas and the Gerrer Rebbe hold (I read the Hebrew language Charedi press), as well as the power Roshei Yeshiva have when they tell ????? ????? to completely ignore draft notices and not show up to present the relevant paperwork for getting their exemption.
7) The majority of those who go OTD while in the IDF wanted to do so already. IDF service was the way out.
8) Obviously, I disagree with their position. I don’t deny it and have never denied it.
9) As an aside: The draft dodgers in Ramat Aviv Gimmel, Ramat HaSharon, Hod HaSharon, Ramat Efal, etc. who get out of service thanks to their parents bribing psychiatrists to diagnose their kids with mental disorders should be thrown in jail just like Charedim who don’t show up to get their exemptions. And their parents? Prosecute them, fine them and/or put them in jail.
Also: people in ???? can have opinions about these issues. Whether they are relevant or not is a different issue altogether.
ZSK:
1. The ‘Bagatz’ is THE wedge preventing any cooperation in Israeli society in general, and plays incessant divide-and-conquer to achieve their own goals.
2. My focus was on ‘conscientious’, as in ‘due to matters of conscience’. The fact that those ‘matters of conscience’ are of the type ‘that to the non-Charedi majority boils down to cultural preservation’ doesn’t change anything. The ‘non-Chareidi majority’ doesn’t decide matters of Halacha or Hashkafa for us.
3A. You said – I don’t disagree with this and I’ve said so on more than one occasion on this forum. However, I do not consider such a good enough reason for Charedi and RZ men to not serve. – Well, ????? ????? do not agree with you. I don’t know what planet you live on if you think the Gerrer Rebbe wants to (or needs to…) bring down a government just to get his grandson out of the draft.
3B. “the Charedi leadership should be making real attempts to work with the IDF to make service possible” – Something that cannot take place under ‘Bagatz’ progressive dictatorship. Both of us know that, and you have also said so yourself.
4. Here you almost explicitly agree with what I said in 3B.
5. That is probably what will eventually happen once the Bagatz is out of the way, and real change to the IDF becomes possible. It doesn’t look like that is happening anytime soon.
6. I don’t have the time or the stomach to write in detail about politics. Suffice it to say that the usual ??? ???? ???? deflections of blaming everything ????? ????? say that they don’t like on power politics won’t cut it here. It is clear that there is a broad and deep consensus here between a wide range of Rabbonim, Rebbes, and Roshei Yeshiva, which goes way beyond ‘politics’.
7-8. That is true, but only because those were the majority of the ‘Chareidim’ filling the quotas until now… The anti-Chareidi camp is starting to understand that, and they want real Chareidi blood, not the fake variety.
9. IMHO, the IDF isn’t so stupid, and they look the other way rather than drafting kids they don’t want. They play this same game ??????? with boys from strongly anti-Zionist communities and ‘Hilltop Youth’, among others. If they really wanted them, they wouldn’t ‘buy’ the psychiatrist stories.
Moshe Rabbeinu was not the only Biblical prophet
who criticized Jews for not fighting for the Land of Israel.__________________________________________
In Tanach, Sefer Shoftim, [the Book of Judges] chapter 5,
the Prophetess Deborah [Devorah HaNeviyah],
sings a Divinely-inspired song.In chapter 5, verses 12 to 16, the Prophetess Deborah
publicly praises those Jews who fought against the enemies of Israel.Then she publicly REBUKES those Jews who
did NOT join the fight against the enemies of Israel.__________________________________________
In Tanach, in Sefer Shmuel Aleph, chapter 18, verse 7,
we see Shaul HaMelech and the General of Shaul’s Army,
David ben Yishai. (This was before David became King.)They are both returning home from recent victory in war.
We see the Jewish women publicly praising both of them:
“SHAUL HAS SLAIN HIS THOUSANDS AND
DAVID [HAS SLAIN] HIS TENS OF THOUSANDS.”PERSONAL NOTE:
From this we see that the soldiers who fight our enemies
deserve to be publicly praised and thanked.__________________________________________
Tanach, Nechemiah, chapter 4, verse 8:“And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles,
and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people:‘Be not afraid of them!
Remember HaShem, who is great and awesome,
and FIGHT FOR YOUR BROTHERS, your sons
and your daughters, your wives and your houses!’”______________________________________________________________
Babylonian Talmud, tractate Sanhedrin, page 72A:“If you see someone coming to kill you, then arise and kill him first.”
PERSONAL COMMENT:
In our time, Hamas and Hezbollah are coming to kill us.
For Jews to arise and kill them first is not merely permitted,
it is required by Torah Law.
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