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Im not sure i understand your question
hes asking: is it possible to marry someone who is not your bashert? if someone gets married can we say with certainty that that person was their bashert?
Oh thanks for clarifying. Gavra i guess it is possible, I see where you are getting at, but the reasons for marrying the wrong person is not necessarily age gap, there are thousands of other reasons!
hes asking: is it possible to marry someone who is not your bashert? if someone gets married can we say with certainty that that person was their bashert?
Thanks, Mr. Mod.
AZ- I mentioned a solution earlier in the thread ill repost it here.- The chairs are there in the other room just not e/o sees it/wants to see it. These chairs are the chipped and shabby chairs but are still strong and standing straight. (meaning ppl think they are “damaged goods” and don’t want to consider them, but in reality they are very good chairs)
That could be a contributing factor. I personally know s/o who went out with s/o and said no for a stupid reason, and a few years later went out again and are married now. SOmetimes you have to overlook certain things. The theory with the age gap may be another factor- but i don’t think its a strong reason whats causing the problem.
hello: Thank you. I’m starting to understand.
AZ: I’m back to my original thinking: Let’s discuss problems which have solutions. You have no solution to the age gap issue. There is no real, wide reaching solution.
I’m taking my toys and going home.
Maybe, the root of the problem is as blinky said, there are plenty of so called damaged goods out there. The age gap is causing that boys are not looking at the so called dameged goods, but are only looking at the next batch.
says who:
If that was the case, shouldn’t there be not enough girls? I suspect it is the opposite.
AZ:
I’m not really going anywhere. I looked around a bit for your solutions. I skimmed “the AZ thread”. I saw you advocating boys dating half a year earlier.
So you say you have 3 solutions. Please present them for us in one post in a simple format.
Clearly AZ has an agenda to promote and isnt open to hearing anyone else’s opinion.
Is it possible we are not setting up enough chairs for all the players? Are eliminating a group of chairs because the upholstry is not black enough? They did not come out of the cookie cutter factories?
sacrilege
weve known that for a long time
Well each 30 year old participant had a chance to play the game a few times but still managed to lose and its possible that some of those loses were for narishkite reasons like heel getting stuck and so on.
Some people are very stubborn with their demands and I say: you can either be stubborn or married.
I dont mean to offend anyone and I know that not everyone got a fair opportunity im just talking about those that did.
Mod – well I guess I’m a newby to these boards, and a quick learner.
Apashuyeyid – “Is it possible we are not setting up enough chairs for all the players?” In an analogy where the chairs are the boys how would you like to set up more chairs? Should parents have more kids and only boys starting at age 23? Am I missing something?
I know. We can only have test tube babies and implant more boys than girls.
“is it possible to marry someone who is not your bashert? if someone gets married can we say with certainty that that person was their bashert? “
The answer is yes, one can marry someone who is not their bashert, even if that person was destined for someone else. Then the answer to the second question is obvious; one cannot say with certainty that a given marriage was bashert.
This answer is from Sefer Chassidim (Rav Margoilis edition), se’if 321 ,near the end of the footnote .
If you are a believing Jew, you WILL agree with the following two points:
1. G-d has a great Master Plan in place for the entire world, and for every individual in this world.
2. The abovementioned Plan includes a spouse for everyone who is destined to get married.
(If you do NOT believe either #1, #2, or both, your problems are far greater than I can help you with. You need to find a qualified rabbi to discuss that issue.)
So why, then, are a great number of young men and women who are looking for their predestined match having so much trouble finding it?
A: WE DO NOT KNOW
This is such a devastating problem in our community that one can only assume that the cause of it is OUR shortcomings; this must be punishment for some community-wide sin. (The blame is definitely NOT placed on the shoulders of our singles; rather on our society at large.)
As a tip for those “in shidduchim”, we can definitely suggest letting go of prejudice such as yeshiva, seminary, family background, physical appearance, and yes, age as well… but let’s not blame numbers because we don’t want to accept blame ourselves. It is so much easier to spend time, energy, and the patience of others to research and preach about data that contradicts points #1 and #2 than to admit that we need to improve ourselves to bring merit upon our nation.
And before you tell me that G-d had it all worked out and we bumbling mortal fools came and wrecked His Plan, realize what you are saying about His omniscience and clairvoyance and decide yourself if that rebuttal is heresy.
May all searching singles find their spouse soon.
Deliberately_Esoteric – Well said. We often get so caught up in doing our hishtadlus in this world that we forget that at the end of the day, Hashem is the only One who controls what will happen.
shlomozalman, 100%, people make a mistake and there’s really two “types” of bashert. There’s a type that is they’re ruchniyus “partner” that they will grow … and then there’s “that was sooo bashet”. I was told by a choshuve rav, a person can marry their bashert and have sholom bayis problems, and a person can “miss’ their bashert and have unbelievable shalmo bayis. Basically, shalom bayis has nothing to do with basherts.
Dear AZ,
I am having a hard time communicating with you. If we were sitting across from each other at a coffee shop, would you be avoiding direct responses in this fashion? I really do not know what your agenda is here.
Be well,
Popa
someone asked on the first page for a source that the cherem rabbeinu gershum was renewed after the expiration date specified by rabbeinu gershum. if it is expired, then that my be a solution to use on a limited basis.
another possibility is to emulate the chasidish shidduch practices, since they dont have an age gap. many litvish rabbonim advocated having both boys and girls marry at a young age. if litvish boys would get married starting at 18 (similar to the chasidim), they would almost automatically be marrying close in age girls. (after all, how much younger than 18 can the kallah be?)
2 potential solutions right here!
Ben torah:
There are three factors which must be discussed for every solution.
A. Will it actually make an appreciable difference.
B. Is it implementable; will people do it?
C. Will it create other problems; will it be worth it?
So, in regards to your first idea, I’ll say it satisfies the first question but fails the second and third, with no further explanation needed.
Your second idea, everyone getting married at 18, bears discussion. I will divide my response into three categories corresponding to the three issues.
A. If effectively implemented, it would eliminate the age gap.
B. Implementing this could be very difficult, especially in light of the potential dangers.
Additionally, there really is nobody who would be able to convince the masses to adopt this custom. We must remember that the cohort we are dealing with does not have rigid definitions, but is a fluid group.
Also, creating this custom would likely alter the composition of the group, as many who consider themselves part of “Yeshiva Orthodoxy”, would not be ready to adopt this lifestyle.
So, the feasibility of this idea is very questionable.
C. This is the most important, as it is the basis for why nobody would want to do this. This solution would create several problems.
Firstly, most 18 year olds in our community are not mature enough for marriage, meaning the relationship. Pointing to the success among chassidim is disingenuous, as their lifestyle is quite different. We could change our lifestyle, but that brings us sharply back to “issue B” (namely, we’re not going to).
Secondly, currently, men in the litvish community learn many more years on average than chassidim. The standard chssidish man leaves learning about 2 years after marriage, at around the age of 21. (I may be slightly off, I’m sure I’ll be corrected, but I’m basically on target.)
It is very likely that our adopting this custom would lead to a similar situation, as parents have only limited resources towards supporting children in learning, and at 18, women will necessarily not have the same advanced degrees. (speech, special ed, graphic design, nursing, shaitel maching)
Also, it is verifiable that the amount of years one learns is by and large, dependent on when one gets married, ie. 3 years after marriage + 5 before = 8; 3 after + 2 before = 5.
Thirdly, we will be alienating a large segment of our greater community. The same boy who now learns in our yeshivos for several years yet comes from a more “baal habatish” background, and eventually assimilates into more “yeshivish” culture, is not ready to commit to this at 18. (BTW, that means less boys)
The same is true for girls. Girls from less yeshivish backgrounds whose communities will not have joined the new group, will not wish to marry 18 year olds from the new group.
What will result is a new, thick line, in “Yeshiva orthodoxy”, dividing it into two defined communities, instead of the continuum which now exists. This would be a bad thing.
I will probably think of more problems, but I think these suffice, and this may be the longest post I have ever written. Nobody is going to read it.
AZ:
The 10th principle translates as follows: I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, knows all the deeds of human beings and all their thoughts, as it is written, “Who fashioned the hearts of them all, Who comprehends all their actions” (Psalms 33:15).
Correct me if I’m wrong, but that principle refers to G-d’s omniscience. He was well aware since the beginning of time that one day, Orthodox Jews would have this gender discrepancy in dating age. And I do believe that He would never abandon us and has someone for all of us to marry.
I’m sorry if your faith is not as strong as mine.
And by the way, our dating fell into this pattern NATURALLY. There is no other way to do it. This is because of the maturity/sophistication gap between our young men and young women. If you plan to start a new movement of 18-year-old boys getting married, I’d suggest you begin training an army of men and women in psychology – and specifically marriage counseling – to help these babies stay married. I beg of you not to start a divorce epidemic.
For those few 18-year-olds who are ready, I say go for it! And for the 25-year-olds who aren’t, please, please wait.
PBA:
I read your post and thought it very intelligently put. You sound like you care very much about the “shidduch crisis” but are aware that such “solutions” cannot work.
People become “less” prepared for marriage the older they get, and thus the propensity for divorce or unhappiness all the greater as they age and become more “sophisticated.” When they are 18, and don’t expect the world, their expectations are in check. Once they hit 25 or more, there is a tendency for them to have greater, unrealistic, expectations of marriage and their spouse – thus setting themselves up for potential failure. Additionally, they are then more exposed to the outside world and all its negative influences. Frankly speaking, often divorces stem from these unrealistic expectations of couples that married “older”. The “younger” couples grew together, including their expectations of each other, and those marriages tend to be stronger. Bottom line? Getting married young works and is generally speaking the way to go.
az, one thing i do know. in order to accomplish encouraging young men to marry younger, it will have to be done in conjunction with encouraging young women to marry younger. you can’t encourage young men to marry at 18 (or 20 – whatever the young age may be), while on the other hand encourage young women to do otherwise. it is important for both genders to marry young for many reasons. (not the least of which, is if an 18 or 20 year old young man is going to get married, he will likely be marrying a young woman of between 17 and 20 years old.)
the way to implement this encouragement, is through chinuch. parents, melamdim, rabbeim, morahs, melamdos, roshei yeshiva, rebbes, and rabbonim should encourage and instill in everyone the importance of marrying young. and this kind of education should begin from a young age, for both boys and girls.
popa, it was done for thousands of years in europe, and only in recent history, primarily america, did marrying later become the norm. i don’t see why we cant successfully revert to our tradition of so long.
I would make sure that there were no “arm” chairs and that all the chairs were “one size fits all” and accommodated players of various heights as well. In addition, the chairs would have no mirrors and would be limited to pertinent questions only. Yes, I would also bring in the short chairs and those with scratches and bruises of course. Even those that are missing a little paint at the top or have some extra padding. I would even bring in the used chairs or pre-owned chairs and I would leave the King and Queen chairs in the back room so they can’t scrutinize the players.
Why do you assume that “getting more chairs into the game” has anything to do having more boys or the like?
Perhaps those responsible for setting up the chairs should stop limiting their furniture suppliers to companies such as BMG, Brisk and other similar suppliers. Many smaller niche suppliers exist, but have a difficult time getting their products into the general market.
Just last week a fine bachur who gives my name as a reference was turned down by the prospective shidduch because “if he was really such a good bachur he would be in BMG”. This is not to say this is the fault of shadchanim, but whoever and whatever created this lust for making sure you live up to the next perons expectations. If shadchanim would promote these boys/girls and parents would not have the attitude expressed above, perhaps we would have less older singles.
Since I am removed from this discussion by geography, and age, not to mention the fact that I have no young ones “in the parsha,” perhaps I can add something.
First, any serious problem usually has more than one cause. Looking for “the” cause only causes confusion. Each one sees the issue from his/her own perspective, so we get rhetoric rather than analysis. The “shidduch crisis” is no different.
Second, it’s not so useful to compare the US situation to that of Europe, because there are more differences than geography and hashkafah. “Europe” as we refer to it belongs to a past age, when babies died in droves and grown women died in childbirth. Diseases like tuberculosis also cut off lives. Poverty was real. People were more pragmatic about things like age because they had to be.
So, what about here and now? There are several reasons suggested, and most of them are right. One major reason is simply mathematical. 2+2=4 and 2-2=0. I’m comfortable with math and numbers and I can assure you that if you have equal numbers of boys and girls in each year, that if you remove the boys from three years worth of young people, that you will end up with three years’ worth of “extra” girls. Your “moving average” will asure that as boys get married and leave at one end of the pipleline and a new year’s worth enters, that if the pipleline for boys begins at age 21 and the girls’ at age 18, you are always going to have 3 years worth of girls “in excess.” This is objective. I’m not sure how to change it.
Another major cause of grief is the “pasul him/her out” mentality. “I only want the best.” This is usually said not by the boy but by the boy’s parents, but since they are doing the screening it’s their opinion that counts. So many girls who are – horrible to say – a size 12 or whose fourth cousin is off the derech, will be ruled out. Same if they went to the wrong seminary. Boys get posuled out because the went to the wrong yeshiva or – gasp – have been seen wearing a blue shirt. Forget it if the young person’s parents have been divorced, or someone in the family hs a “problem.” So the boys’ parents posul out half the girls, and the girls who are posuled out don’t want to take the “non-BMG non-future Gadol” boys.
And then of course we have the shadchanim making more problems of the same nature, and really creating a bottleneck that makes it all much, much worse.
And of course everyone has their idea of the “perfect” boy/girl, usually dictated by their fear of what the neighbors will think if they “settle.”
So what to do? As I mentioned above, the “math” aspect is beyond me. As someone else said, we should be discussing those aspects we can solve. Nevertheless, I think a major step forward would be eliminating shadchanim. Yep. ALL of them. It should be assur to take money for making a shidduch.
I know that that flies in the face of minhag, but the professionals are making the whole process a chillul HaShem. People who indulge in indiscriminate matchmaking because they would like the money or the kavod are almost as bad. Perhaps a central (computerized?) registry could be set up and lists could be generated and sent to the parents, in addition to free-lancing by “civilian” family and friends. At any rate, make shadchanus a matter of the mitzvah alone.
We also need to make it socially unacceptable to sit around gossiping about other people’s shidduchim. I don’t know how to accomplish that, either, since people take the idea of tachlis to the imaginable limits, but we can make a try.
I have some other suggestions, but this post is already too long, and most of them have already been put forward.
Midwest very true, i agree to everything.
i do have one more point. did anyone mention that beemes, it’s “easier” to be a “top” girl than a “top” boy? lemaasa, a girl has to be a yarei shamayim, and a baalas midos (geshikt…ok whatever) a boy needs to be a yarei shamayim, baal midos AND a shtarka learner, a budding talmid chachom. That’s an extra and it’s much harder ???. The girl doesn’t have to sit over a gemara for four hours streight and need the discipline to do so to be considered a good girl. She doesn’t have to wake up on time for minyan at zman krias shma, (only zman tefilla) and stay up late after night seder learning. there are extra pressures on boys than on girls. Thereby, there are fewer “good” boys than “good” girls.
Sof davar, there is no shortage of top girls, there are many wonderful girls, the problem is that many parents of boys don’t see it or realize it because they are not necessarily looking for wonderful girls. THEY are looking for wonderful girls who are also a size 2 or less; not too tall but of course not short; beautiful without makeup but yet wears makeup well; is not high maintenance yet wears designer labels; comes from a wealthy home but doesn’t expect anything from their in-laws; has a magnificent home, well decorated and well appointed; went to the best schools and seminary; and is willing to put up with their son’s behaviors good or bad as well as manners or lack thereof; as well as accept their son for who he is, not what he looks like or who he can become.
And you were saying that boys are under more pressure because they have learn??????? Um, I don’t think so. Do you know how hard it is to maintain the qualifications that these mothers are looking for if one is willing to try? Do you know how difficult it is to be a size 2 if you are not naturally that thin?
sof davar hakol nishma – Very true.
Midwest2 – “So, what about here and now? There are several reasons suggested, and most of them are right. One major reason is simply mathematical. 2+2=4 and 2-2=0. I’m comfortable with math and numbers and I can assure you that if you have equal numbers of boys and girls in each year, that if you remove the boys from three years worth of young people, that you will end up with three years’ worth of “extra” girls. Your “moving average” will asure that as boys get married and leave at one end of the pipleline and a new year’s worth enters, that if the pipleline for boys begins at age 21 and the girls’ at age 18, you are always going to have 3 years worth of girls “in excess.” This is objective. I’m not sure how to change it.”
True. Perhaps we should raise the age that girls start dating to 20 or even 21? That should ensure three year’s worth of girls aren’t automatically chairless.
Perhaps we should raise the age that girls start dating to 20 or even 21?
I refer to my 3 conditions.
A. This would alleviate the age gap.
B. This is not very feasible. How will you convince a girl of 19 to not date in the midst of a shidduch crisis? Who will decree this and be accepted?
C. I don’t see any dangers. Some people might.
“This is not very feasible. How will you convince a girl of 19 to not date in the midst of a shidduch crisis?”
Perhaps we could convince them to work for a few years before going onto the market, and besides then they’d have some money to start off with too.
“Who will decree this and be accepted?”
Now we get to the hard part. Maybe the Agudah? Probably still wouldn’t have much of an effect, I know. The only way to get people to listen is to do something that bites – like, get a whole bunch of Rabbonim to sign that they won’t attend any chasunos where the girl is under 20/21. And maybe convince some halls/caterers not to service these weddings, too.
aries, you’re not getting what i wrote. I’m not saying there aren’t enough good girls. I’m saying it’s EASIER (not taht it’s easy alltogether) to be considered a good girl than a good boy. Because the boys also have to be a good learner, a budding t”ch. that’s all.
“The only way to get people to listen is to do something that bites – like, get a whole bunch of Rabbonim to sign that they won’t attend any chasunos where the girl is under 20/21. And maybe convince some halls/caterers not to service these weddings, too. “
mw13, sorry, that will never happen.
SDHN – Never said it will.
Sof Davar, and my point is that I don’t feel badly for boys who “HAVE” to be good learners if that is what they plan to do for a number of years or even longer. That should not be a problem for them since that is what they have been training to do all their lives, learn. IF it is a problem for them, then they should let their parents know that it is NOT what they want to do and they should look for an appropriate shiduch.
As far as the girls are concerned, MY point is that they are being overlooked even though they are “good” even “great” girls because the parents or more to the point “mother” of boys are not really looking for that, they are taking that for granted and looking for shtusim that have nothing to do with being a good wife or a good mother; and it has nothing to do with building a bais neeman b’yisroel.
Maybe if Roshei Yeshivas gave some mussar on the subject of what to look for in a shidduch; maybe if the Roshei Yeshivos gave some hadracha in what a bashert truly is; maybe if the Roshei Yeshivos prepared the boys for marriage like the seminaries are trying to prepare the girls for marriage they would have their feet more firmly planted on the ground and their dating requirements wouldn’t revolve around size, looks and financial statements.
Great! Now we are talking business.
Here are the issues I am having with this idea.
1. I am not convinced it is possible to pull this off. I am not aware that BMG is interested in making such a rule.
2. Currently, most BMG students begin dating upon arrival in America and leaving the “freezer”.
However, this is because they delay their return to America until they wish to begin dating. There is little reason to think that a mandated early return would translate into earlier dating.
aries, i agree 100%, unfortunately what you are saying is SO true.
So far all i’ve been reading about the age gap was about a 5 year difference between the guy and the girl. But what about a much bigger age gap where the guy is 20yrs older than the girl? What do you think?
Another potential chair was just added to the game, BE”H.
I’m doing my part!
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