My Inner Thoughts On Vaccine Politics

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  • #1630949

    getitclear
    Participant

    I want to share my inner thoughts on vaccine politics, a very heated topic these days in our community.
    It hurts me greatly how parents who choose not to vaccinate are ridiculed for their opinions, written off by others as crazy, uneducated and naive people, and mostly the animosity toward us, is unfathomable.
    Yes I understand you pro vaxxers strongly believe in vaccines, and their safety and effectiveness. You don’t fear live viruses, in vaccines, as well as additives and human and animal cells and DNA….
    You trust that the vaccine industry is working hard to protect you and keep you healthy. You trust that they are honest and expose all the truths, never hiding facts that may be important for you to know to help formulate your decision.
    I understand that.
    I understand that fear is something you want to avoid at all costs. So if the government and vaccine producers can limit your fear of disease, and assure your well being, you will choose to follow their advice, innovations and promises.
    I believe all you parents who go to the doctor to vaccinate have the best intentions in mind, and of course you don’t take your doctor’s word with certainty when he says vaccines are very safe, safer than the disease.
    I believe you take the time to read disease facts. I believe you have the courage to ask your doctor to show you the vaccine package insert, so you can read the adverse side effects related to the vaccine your child is about to receive.
    I believe your doctor is honest and lawfully hands that to you, the consumer. I believe you read it….I believe you discuss your concerns and take the time to make a conscious choice to allow your doctor to administer the vaccine to you dear child.
    You are a truly responsible and caring parent who takes the time to educate yourself before allowing the doctor to administer the vaccine.
    I applaud you for making the choice that’s right for you and your child. You don’t blindly trust the doctor or government, who do care about your health, but should ethically never impose on you any health procedure or treatment.
    After all we live in America.
    I’m sure you know our country was founded on the belief of freedom. I’m sure you agree that as humans we should have freedom of choice.
    I don’t know everything backing your choice of vaccination.
    I respect you for your choice and understand we may never agree on this topic. I agree to disagree. I don’t intend to convince you to see it my way. I don’t intend to mock your educated choice of health care, because I believe we have a birthright to choose.
    I however, doubt vaccine safety and effectiveness. I do fear lab tampered viruses, human and animal cells, foreign DNA and other additives contained in vaccines. I do fear vaccine components that are known to cross the blood brain barrier, such as aluminum. I fear inflammation of the gut and brain.
    I also doubt the vaccine industries intentions.
    Perhaps it’s not only about my health, or my children’s health. Perhaps they’re not sharing with us the full picture. Perhaps not all the facts are exposed to the average consumer, or government agencies or health journals, and the media.
    I believe in taking responsibility for my health. I believe in giving my body what it needs so it can function the way it was designed to be. I’m aware that when disease strikes, I or my kids may be sick for a week or two, but will get over it with Hashems help.
    I believe our body was designed with an immune system so that it can deal with illness and then gain lifelong immunity. You fear disease.
    I fear vaccines.
    You trust the government with certainty.
    I trust Hashem – my body’s designer with certainty.
    Can you please understand that there’s another opinion out there by descent, well intentioned human beings?
    Can you understand that we never entered an agreement that I, who oppose vaccines will get vaccinated, to help protect you?
    I also did research. I do think I’m a responsible adult and parent.
    I deserve basic human respect.
    I don’t ask you to agree or follow my choices.
    I ask you to stop with the hatred and cynicism that’s driving us further apart as humans on this planet, and as people of one nation.
    Your decision seems so right to you.
    My decision seems so right to me.
    No one should be ruling who’s right.
    Because it’s a basic human right to have freedom of choice.
    Our creator has given us bechira.
    As true Torah Jews you should not want this freedom to be taken from anyone. For if you fight and scream for this choice to be taken away from others you may one day discover that a choice you hold dear is being taken away from you.
    Do you want to set the stage for forceful laws and regulations regarding your health or religion to be imposed on you?
    Or basic human rights to be taken away from you???

    #1631865

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Can you understand that we never entered an agreement that I, who oppose vaccines will get vaccinated, to help protect you?

    Nevertheless, it’s your obligation.

    That is the bottom line. You don’t have the right to inflict your meshugas on your children or anyone else’s.

    #1631874

    concerrned mom
    Participant

    Very nicely put down.I think its the first sensical thing written by an anti vaxxer.lets say i understand your points.lets say for reg times i can give you that right and respect it.But now when there is a breakout in OUR community do u rethink and pehaps alter ur decision????

    #1631877

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s not sensical, or sensible. It’s purely emotional.

    #1631893

    1
    Participant

    There’s no such thing as pro-vaccinate. Don’t get the game mixed up. You vaccinate, whether you like it or not. Hopefully that straightened out your thought process.

    #1631890

    2scents
    Participant

    Why is it that all anti vaxxers write ridiculously long posts?

    On a personal level, I can understand the notion of doing what you believe is right. However,

    A. Dont spread false information, and by dumping large quantities of many different arguments and made up studies, you will not come across as more credible.

    B. Understand that while you have your rights, the rest of the world and the schools also have rights.

    C. Understand that for the rest of us, this is not emotional, we have the data, regulatory institutions and constant micro oversight on vaccines, due to the now proven fraudulent data.

    D. While systems have flaws, we live in the real world where conspiracies arent what drive our decisions.

    To summarize, your argument about freedom of choice is understood, but also understand that the topic is a public health topic, so dont expect the public to welcome those that are a potential risk to them.

    #1631905

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    OP should have just posted to the other thread.

    #1631948

    New Yorker at heart
    Participant

    If the overwhelming majority of poskim from all walks of yiddishkeit say to vaccinate,

    How can these “well educated” anti-vaxxers go against them??????

    #1631923

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I posted a long reply
    which I hope wil lget approved.

    Here is the cliff notes version
    you claim to want to understand us here are the simple things I hope you can understand
    1) keep my religion out of it. Yo udon’t want to vaccinate, fine but don’t claim “religous exemption” if you claim to practice Judaism. I am not aware of a single posek that opposes vaccination on religous grounds. Most require , a few leave it up to the individual

    2) you dont want to vaccinate, fine. But why do we have to accept your risk? Move to North Dakota by a isolated farm and stay away from the rest of us. I really don’t understand why we have to “respect your right” but you dont have to respect ours not to be exposed to unvaccinated people

    3) For crying out loud https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/thread-not-for-anti-vaxxers
    please answer the op. ITs crazy EVERY SINGLE time

    #1631945

    New Yorker at heart
    Participant

    If a overwhelming majority of Poskim from all walks of Yiddishkeit say to vaccinate because that is today’s hishtadlus against disease,

    How can these so called “well educated” anti-vaxxers go against it?

    If a overwhelming majority of poskim say that something is assur to be eaten,
    Would these “well educated” anti-vaxxers say yes?

    #1631919

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    getitclear part 1 of 2

    You seem well meaning and hurt, so I will indulge your error filled post.
    I will not reply to every wrong point in your long post but will choose some to point out, how while perhaps well-meaning you are nonetheless terribly misguided and wrong .

    “It hurts me greatly how parents who choose not to vaccinate are ridiculed for their opinions, written off by others as crazy, uneducated and naive people, and mostly the animosity toward us, is unfathomable.”

    It hurts me too. but make no mistake most (all?) pro-diseasers are in fact crazy and uneducated. I say this after years and years of encounters with many pro-diseasers. You dont seem crazy, but you do make many many illogical statements in your post that really beg the question how you can claim to have properly researched this topic

    “You trust that the vaccine industry is working hard to protect you and keep you healthy. You trust that they are honest and expose all the truths, never hiding facts that may be important for you to know to help formulate your decision. I understand that.”

    Its great that you understand that but it isnt true. I do not trust them at all. And if there wasnt study after study showing their safety I wouldnt administer nor accept vaccines. Trust as little if anythign to do with it. and it is confusing that a person who implies to not be “uneducated” on the subject isnt aware of that.

    “I understand that fear is something you want to avoid at all costs. ”
    Wait what? You earlier said that we ” don’t fear live viruses, in vaccines, as well as additives and human and animal cells and DNA….”

    “So if the government and vaccine producers can limit your fear of disease, and assure your well being, you will choose to follow their advice, innovations and promises.”
    Nope, see above

    “I believe you take the time to read disease facts….”
    I am not sure why you believe that. IF you trust your doctor, what’s wrong with taking his/her word for it?

    “You are a truly responsible and caring parent who takes the time to educate yourself before allowing the doctor to administer the vaccine.”
    Thank you! iyh by you

    ” but should ethically never impose on you any health procedure or treatment.”
    “on you” agreed. But do you really believe that doctors/the government should not force antibiotics on a child of xtian scientists who do not believe in medicine?

    “I’m sure you agree that as humans we should have freedom of choice.”
    Not when it affects others. yo udont have freedom to open fire on a crowd of people nor to shout fire in a crowded theater.

    “I don’t know everything backing your choice of vaccination.”
    Then you arent fully educated on the subject. Keep reading so that you too can make a truly informed decision

    ” I agree to disagree. ”
    no no no this isnt a “agree to disagree situation”

    “I believe in taking responsibility for my health. I believe in giving my body what it needs so it can function the way it was designed to be. I’m aware that when disease strikes, I or my kids may be sick for a week or two, but will get over it with Hashems help.
    I believe our body was designed with an immune system so that it can deal with illness and then gain lifelong immunity.”
    These beliefs are wrong and frankly, crazy. Are you not aware that occasionally people die? Are you not aware that occasionally treatments can help? This line makes no sense

    #1631920

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    get it clear part 2 of 2
    (cont)
    ” You trust the government with certainty.”
    Um, no again.

    “I trust Hashem – my body’s designer with certainty.”
    No you don’t if you did you would follow the majority of poskim And besides did you eat today? Why? If Hashem designed a body that really needed nutrients He would have made a automatically replenishing system.

    “Can you please understand that there’s another opinion out there by descent, well intentioned human beings?”
    no this isnt an opinion issue. I thought your group was well-intentioned but perhaps misguided, but that beleif is no longer sustainable

    “Can you understand that we never entered an agreement that I, who oppose vaccines will get vaccinated, to help protect you?”
    No, and for arguments sake ok. so keep away from us. dont come to our shuls, schools, simchas stores etc. You WANT us to accept you but dont care to “help protect us” that isnt fair.

    “I deserve basic human respect.”
    Agreed, And I respectfully disagree, as your research is clearly lacking

    “I don’t ask you to agree or follow my choices”.
    but you do. Look, lets say you opposed seatbelt use. you read someplace about a person who was r”l trapped in a car due to seatbelt and couldnt escape. Do you think you have the right to not seatbelt your kids. More to the point, do you have the right to not seat-belt MY kids, if they are riding with you. IT may not be fair that no reasonable parent would let their kids in your car let kids go on trips with your kids etc. But that is our right. This is no different

    “No one should be ruling who’s right.”
    Not even scientists, with hard data?

    “Our creator has given us bechira.”
    another strange argument, does that mean I have a right to shoot people , and you should respect my right? Bechira isnt a blanket right to make wrong decisions.

    “As true Torah Jews you should not want this freedom to be taken from anyone. ”
    Just the opposite, rights are a foreign concept. We believe in responsibilities. yo u have a responsibility to give tzedaka, it isnt a right. Yo udo not have a right to say what you want , nor do yo u have a right to play games with your or your kid’s health.

    “For if you fight and scream for this choice to be taken away from others you may one day discover that a choice you hold dear is being taken away from you.”
    Then we will fight to keep that choice. What is right is right. You dont allow a wrong becuase of another right.

    “Do you want to set the stage for forceful laws and regulations regarding your health or religion to be imposed on you?”
    Health – yes of course as demonstrated above
    Religion – Again the courts have already ruled that religion doesn’t always trump health. I am not sure what religion yo u practice. but Judaism requires vaccination, according to most poskim, and according to none does it oppose it. so don’t misuse my religion to protect you backwards idea.

    #1631911

    Health
    Participant

    getitclear -“I believe you take the time to read disease facts. I believe you have the courage to ask your doctor to show you the vaccine package insert, so you can read the adverse side effects related to the vaccine your child is about to receive.
    I believe your doctor is honest and lawfully hands that to you, the consumer. I believe you read it….I believe you discuss your concerns and take the time to make a conscious choice to allow your doctor to administer the vaccine to you dear child.”

    These 2 paragraphs are full of Sarcasm.

    “Because it’s a basic human right to have freedom of choice.”

    You can have that choice when you live in a forest or when you move to Guatamala.
    Unfortunely when you live amongst others – they also have rights.
    These rights include not getting near unvaxxed people. This includes schools, Shuls, etc.
    You can not expose them to diseases, No matter what your beliefs are!

    #1631917

    The little I know
    Participant

    getitclear:

    Your post is appreciated despite our disagreement. It is polite, and for a subject under debate in the CR, that is an accomplishment. I see things quite opposite, and I have major comments on your post. As we are all in this emotionally, I will try to emulate your decency in responding.

    Several points you made deserve challenge. I find them highly irritating (the content, not the delivery). I will try to list some of these individually.

    * “So if the government and vaccine producers can limit your fear of disease, and assure your well being, you will choose to follow their advice, innovations and promises.” – This point is untrue. The government is not trying to allay fears. It is trying to eradicate disease. And studies show it has fared quite well. There is a great track record of eliminating quite a few diseases, and greatly reducing the incidence of others.

    * “I believe all you parents who go to the doctor to vaccinate have the best intentions in mind, and of course you don’t take your doctor’s word with certainty when he says vaccines are very safe, safer than the disease.
    I believe you take the time to read disease facts. I believe you have the courage to ask your doctor to show you the vaccine package insert, so you can read the adverse side effects related to the vaccine your child is about to receive.
    I believe your doctor is honest and lawfully hands that to you, the consumer. I believe you read it….I believe you discuss your concerns and take the time to make a conscious choice to allow your doctor to administer the vaccine to you dear child.” – This is the sarcasm that serves as the emotional cover for the intellectual weakness of the arguments. We vaxxers rely on the government to do the research for us. We entered this world observing the successes of vaccinating, and do not engage in the scientific study of a subject that lies outside our domain of learning and experience. That’s the role of government. Once again, we openly saw the devastation of various illnesses and how they vanished once there was widespread vaxxing.

    * “I’m sure you know our country was founded on the belief of freedom. I’m sure you agree that as humans we should have freedom of choice.” – Nice sales pitch. That’s why we chose to vaccinate and you chose not to. That freedom is yours. No one ever entered your home and threatened you with criminal charges over your decision to not vaccinate. I might have an ideological issue with your exercise of parental authority to deprive the baby/child of the resistance to the illnesses. But that argument against abortion was flatly rejected by the left, and has all but vanished from discussion.

    * “I believe in taking responsibility for my health. I believe in giving my body what it needs so it can function the way it was designed to be. I’m aware that when disease strikes, I or my kids may be sick for a week or two, but will get over it with Hashem’s help.” – I challenge the responsibility of that statement. There are benign diseases that are hardly the threat they once were. In earlier generations, diseases that are mostly considered insignificant today were killers. Anti-biotics changed that. The development of strains of microbes that are resistant to these medications is an unfortunate side effect. That is a real issue. And I am a firm believer that אני ה’ רפאך. But that does not mean to avoid doctors, or to reject mainstream medical care. Hashem provided us with the advances in science and technology that enable us to study the human body and its functions, and to intervene in a great many ways to improve our health, well being, and longevity. But denying normal medical care is akin to staying home and not going to work since מזונותיו של אדם קצובין לו מראש השנה עד ראש השנה. That’s blatantly irresponsible. Hashem provided us with the avenues through which he will heal and cure us. False בטחון is not a mitzvah or a virtue.

    * “You trust the government with certainty. I trust Hashem – my body’s designer with certainty.” – That’s a veiled accusation that vaxxers lack trust in Hashem. That is not only unfair and untrue, but a misrepresentation of what trust in Hashem means. The previous comment contains the reaction to this line of yours.

    * “Can you understand that we never entered an agreement that I, who oppose vaccines will get vaccinated, to help protect you?” – We never entered into any agreement. But Torah Law is clear that causing someone else harm is completely ossur. I have no interest in your organic, vegan, gluten free, etc., diet. Those choices are yours alone, and no agreements with anyone else are needed. The situation here is the danger and risk you are inflicting on me. You may be entitled to your anti-vaxxing shittah. But you are not entitled to expose other people to disease. If there is an outbreak, your unvaccinated child is a potential threat to others, and should be restricted from those venues that place others at risk. Keeping these kids out of school is not unfair.

    * “I ask you to stop with the hatred and cynicism that’s driving us further apart as humans on this planet, and as people of one nation.” – I concur 100% that hatred and cynicism should be banished. They are also threats to our health, emotional and spiritual, and even physical. However, the frank resistance to the banning of unvaccinated kids in school is without merit. Reality is that their presence provides exposure that has already sickened several hundred children, with several that are suffering from very serious conditions. You chose to raise your kids without vaccines, that’s your freedom. But imposing your freedom on others is unacceptable. We don’t hate your choice, just have a legitimate issue with imposing disease on our children. Our right to safety wins on this.

    * “Do you want to set the stage for forceful laws and regulations regarding your health or religion to be imposed on you?” – Absolutely not! But just as I want our Halachic leaders and Poskim to provide me with guidance that insures my compliance with Halacha, I want the medical experts to provide me with the guidance to maintain my health. Are you opposed to warning labels on cigarettes or alcohol? If I choose to smoke, I may do so as long as it doesn’t impinge on others’ right to breathe air. I may not pump stinky second hand smoke into the room, with considerations of the foul odor and health consequences of second hand smoke. I want our government to make these laws and regulations. They employ the experts for these matters. We have Poskim to serve as the Halacha experts.

    I commend your post for its delivery. I strongly disagree with many of your points. I am not looking to convince you of anything, but to be tolerant of our safety.

    #1631910

    Doing my best
    Participant

    “After all we live in America.
    I’m sure you know our country was founded on the belief of freedom. I’m sure you agree that as humans we should have freedom of choice.”
    Yes, but just like I can’t fire off ten rounds from a gun in a super market which may or may not damage someone, you can’t live in a pro-vax community and vaccinate.
    If you want you can start a new community elsewhere and stay out of the pro-vax communities.

    “I don’t ask you to agree or follow my choices.”
    That’s right, however you do ask me to run the risk of I or my family members contracting a deadly illness.

    #1632015

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Anti-vaxxers are under the mistaken impression that there is a vaccine “debate”. That there are two sides to the issue, “pro-vax” and “anti-vax”. That’s a fantasy concocted by the anti-vax crowd and is completely false. There’s no debate. There’s merely facts (which the majority of intelligent seicheldikeh people understand and abide by) and there’s scare tactics and lies pulled from weird looking websites with only some token out of context scientific data to back it up.

    #1632017

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    To add to my previous comment. The debate over vaccinations is no more a debate than the debate over flat Earth, whether the President is an alien, and government mind-control satellites. Not surprisingly, they are all discussed in the same forums.

    So if you want people to discuss “both sides” and continue to pretend that this is a debate, just know that you sound no different than the people that claimed the world will end in 2012.

    #1632048

    interjection
    Participant

    “I want to share my inner thoughts on vaccine politics, a very heated topic these days in our community.”
    -Only anti-vaxxers think it is political.

    “the animosity toward us, is unfathomable.”
    -Because anti-vaxxers know that other people may die for their decision but they still won’t budge.

    “Yes I understand you pro vaxxers strongly believe in vaccines, and their safety and effectiveness.”
    -because it’s been tested extensively.

    “You don’t fear live viruses, in vaccines, as well as additives and human and animal cells and DNA….”
    -I do fear those things. I am only willing to vaccinate my kids because they have proven, through extensive studies, that it is safe.

    “You trust that the vaccine industry is working hard to protect you and keep you healthy. You trust that they are honest and expose all the truths, never hiding facts that may be important for you to know to help formulate your decision. I understand that fear is something you want to avoid at all costs. So if the government and vaccine producers can limit your fear of disease, and assure your well being, you will choose to follow their advice, innovations and promises.”
    -I don’t trust anyone. I don’t trust the vaccine industry nor the government and I definitely don’t trust the anti-vaxxing arguments especially since every single one has been refuted. It comes down to whom should I rely on. Someone is lying. The liars are either 1) the vast majority of doctors, plus the government, plus the vast majority of scientists, plus the vast majority of rabbanim, plus the vast majority of journalists, or 2) a small percentage of doctors plus a tiny percentage of scientists, plus 1-2 rabbanim, plus a few journalists who also think the mossad masterminded 9/11

    “I believe all you parents who go to the doctor to vaccinate have the best intentions in mind, and of course you don’t take your doctor’s word with certainty when he says vaccines are very safe, safer than the disease. I believe you take the time to read disease facts. I believe you have the courage to ask your doctor to show you the vaccine package insert, so you can read the adverse side effects related to the vaccine your child is about to receive. I believe your doctor is honest and lawfully hands that to you, the consumer. I believe you read it….I believe you discuss your concerns and take the time to make a conscious choice to allow your doctor to administer the vaccine to you dear child. You are a truly responsible and caring parent who takes the time to educate yourself before allowing the doctor to administer the vaccine. I applaud you for making the choice that’s right for you and your child. You don’t blindly trust the doctor or government”
    -I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic but yes that is all true.

    “government, who do care about your health, but should ethically never impose on you any health procedure or treatment.”
    -I don’t know if that’s true. As an extreme example, if a person has a severe bout of psychosis and they think they need to kill someone, I would hope that he would be sedated or treated even against his will.

    “I do fear vaccine components that are known to cross the blood brain barrier, such as aluminum.”
    I fear aluminum which is why I don’t use it whenever possible. I use natural deodorant and I line my pans with parchment paper.

    “I fear inflammation of the gut and brain.”
    -I fear those too which is why I vaccinate my kids against diseases that cause those things.

    “I also doubt the vaccine industries intentions.”
    -I don’t care about their intentions. I’m sure they have some intentions that are noble, such as to eradicate disease and other intentions that are selfish, such as to make money. However, I’m sure alternative practitioners also have both good intentions.

    “Perhaps they’re not sharing with us the full picture. Perhaps not all the facts are exposed to the average consumer, or government agencies or health journals, and the media.”
    -Assuming vaccines are all a hoax, I honestly don’t know how they could pull this off in the massive way that they are doing. Not everyone can be bought off with money.

    “I’m aware that when disease strikes, I or my kids may be sick for a week or two, but will get over it with Hashems help.”
    -That’s really nice to do that to your kids. You do know that encephalitis which comes from the measles can occur 6-10 years after the patient has already overcome measles.

    I believe our body was designed with an immune system so that it can deal with illness and then gain lifelong immunity. You fear disease. I fear vaccines.”
    -I fear both. I choose vaccines because I would never want to put my child through suffering that could have been prevented very easily.

    “You trust the government with certainty.”
    -I don’t. I just trust them more than I trust conspiracy theorists.

    “I trust Hashem – my body’s designer with certainty.”
    -I trust Hashem too which is why I think that if I’m doing my hishtadlus to prevent these diseases, then Hashem will protect me. Hashem knows how much information I have access to and He knows that my only desire is to protect my family from harm and I believe that when I do vaccinate, it is a shemira against illness and I believe that Hashem sees that I am doing my best. When I do vaccinate, I daven that we shouldn’t have adverse reactions and that we should be protected from the diseases.
    I think the claim that anti-vaxxers trust Hashem more than vaxxers, is very insulting.

    “Can you please understand that there’s another opinion out there by descent, well intentioned human beings?”
    -I’m not why this boils down to opinion. It’s not political. Anti-vax think they can do something, knowing that it may (obviously not definitely) kill the immune deficient. Measles is not dangerous to people whose health is optimum. The problem is that not everyone else’s health is optimum and those people cannot vaccinate, through no choice of their own. When a person carries the measles, they risk transferring it over to the people to whom these diseases are life-threatening.

    “Can you understand that we never entered an agreement that I, who oppose vaccines will get vaccinated, to help protect you?”
    -That’s fine but I hope you can then understand why others find that attitude to be extremely selfish and even despicable.

    “I also did research. I do think I’m a responsible adult and parent.”
    -I also did and I feel the same way.

    “I ask you to stop with the hatred and cynicism that’s driving us further apart as humans on this planet, and as people of one nation.”
    -Habah lehargecha, hashkem lehargo. Not that I think that pasuk is completely appropriate in this situation, but it does explain that you don’t have to love another Jew when his belief can kill you.

    “Our creator has given us bechira.”
    -Bechira does not mean that all options are right. A person can kill, serve avodah zara and commit adultery because they have bechira. However all those things are forbidden and the violater will be punished.

    “As true Torah Jews you should not want this freedom to be taken from anyone. For if you fight and scream for this choice to be taken away from others you may one day discover that a choice you hold dear is being taken away from you.”
    -There are many laws that restrict our freedoms in some way or another. This should be another one.

    “Do you want to set the stage for forceful laws and regulations regarding your health or religion to be imposed on you?”
    -No, but I don’t think vaccines fall into that category.

    “Or basic human rights to be taken away from you???”
    -It should not be a basic human right to be able to infect others with a dangerous illness.

    Final thoughts:
    Anti-vaxxers think that the diseases that vaccines are meant to prevent are not dangerous diseases. They think that vaccines are dangerous. They also think that everyone is being paid off by Big Pharma. These arguments have been refuted myriad times by many educated and qualified professionals. However, they will not budge. Therefore, I think that this was all a waste of my time.

    #1632024

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Is there really such a thing as “agreeing to disagree” when it comes to life and death decisions?

    #1632111

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    The Little I Know – if you thought the post was kind you obviously didnt read it.

    Interjection- thank you!!

    #1632124

    The little I know
    Participant

    Syag:

    The manner of expression was menchlich. Read it again, and you gotta notice that. Quite in contrast to many other anti-vaxxer comments on this thread and others on the subject. That’s why I commended that. The content has been appropriately destroyed by several commenters here who tore it apart point by point.

    I believe I stated this elsewhere. When someone does something for emotional reasons and passions run high, the tendency is to ignore anything intellectual. If we approach the anti-vax movement with logic, the debate will go nowhere. It is not supported by logic but by emotion. My personal preference is to follow the dictate, the language of which was coined by the Baal Hatanya – מוח שליט על הלב. We are to make logic dominate over emotion.

    #1632148

    Some Common Sense
    Participant

    Get it clear,
    what will you say when your child dies or causes another child to die because of your decision?
    What will you say if your children have mumps and can NEVER have children when a vaccine would have prevented that?
    If we are al servants of HaShem, that should be first and foremost; since our Gedolim have repeated said to vaccine, why are anti-vaxxers not following our leaders. In other words, are they placing their own views above the Torah?
    I am not a “pro-vaxxer”, I try to be servant of HaShem and when my rabbenim said I should get my children and grandchildren vaccinated based on the very far majority of doctors, I following them.

    #1632163

    kavod Habriot
    Participant

    Besides the health risks of vaccination, it is important to discuss the issue of corporate and federal fraud by the vaccine companies. As a parent, if a company is being sued for fraud regarding their product, why in the world would I want to give that product to my children? Merck is currently being sued for fraud for withholding data about the effectiveness of their mumps vaccine. GlaxoSmithKline recently paid $3 billion dollars in a fraud settlement case. Not to mention the fact that the pharmaceutical industry is the biggest defrauder in history under the False Claims Act. Yet, legislation continues to be put in place to protect these corporations and not the population. As a mother it is my right to protect my children from these criminals. Research before you vaccinate your helpless child. Dont let anyone scare you! Vaccination is medication! Why are you medicating your healthy child. Does the One Above not know what hes doing? C”V. Does he send down imperfect babies to the world that we have to mess around with them & drug them up right away…Please be careful before you pump the bloodstream of your loved ones with garbage.

    #1632171

    Some Common Sense
    Participant

    Kavod HaBrios,
    Are you an Eved HaShem or Eved Ini?
    An Eved HaSehm follows our Gedolim but Eved Ini follow his own path despite what our Rabbis are saying.
    Please answer my previous questions because as much as we much have Emuna, HaShem expects us to place our own effect as guided by the Gedolim.

    #1632178

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Kavod habriot
    Ill keep this one short. 2 questions:

    1) “Does he send down imperfect babies to the world that we have to mess around with them & drug them up right away”
    does He send down imperfect wheat that yo uhave to mess around with and grind mix with water bake etc before eating, or do you eat wheat the way the One Above sent it?

    2) “why in the world would I want to give that product to my children?”
    Fine (for argument’s sake) so don’t, but why do we have to accept your kids in our schools?

    Thanks

    #1632175

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    The little I know- while the manner and expression might have been kind, when the words are sarcastic and condescending it is not by any means mentchlich. He could have been so, but he missed the opportunity to be respectful and make a point without being hateful. That being said, i agree with your point(s) 1000%

    #1632177

    sariray
    Participant

    Any body who says anti vaxers shouldn’t have a choice is denying the very fundamental truth which is that vaccines are not 100% safe. Anyone who denies this is either uninformed, misinformed, or in extreme denial. The very inserts that come with vaccines as with any other medications has a list of possible side effects. It lists Common side effects (which would be mild like fever, rash, swelling at injection site) and then it also lists KNOWN severe reactions, which do include life threatening conditions in many vaccines.
    Also just wanted to point out that even anti vaxers would say that not all vaccines are created equally. And saying so, not all illnesses are equally dangerous . So while they may choose to vaccinate for a circulating illness, they may feel safe choosing to decline vaccines for sexually transmitted diseases (HPV, HepB) or polio (which hasn’t been around in 30 years) but many are told that if you choose religious exemptions you cannot pick and choose vaccines it’s all or none.

    #1632214

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Pregnancy isn’t 100% safe either.

    #1632211

    Health
    Participant

    kavod Habriot -“Besides the health risks of vaccination, it is important to discuss the issue of corporate and federal fraud by the vaccine companies. As a parent, if a company is being sued for fraud regarding their product, why in the world would I want to give that product to my children? ”

    SO DON’T! What you Anti-vaxxers fail to understand is that by Not vaccinating and living amongst Frum people there is a higher chance of you spreading the disease to us.
    If you really had any Kovod Habrious – you’d move to Guatamala, like Lev Tahor!

    #1632216

    Joseph
    Participant

    sariray: Cancer treatments also have known side effects and risks. Would you also suggest a cancer patient r’l not be treated?

    #1632237

    akuperma
    Participant

    Just out of curiousity, what Rabbanin and telling people not to vaccinate? Unless this is a dispute between different rabbanim on halacha, the debate is over some Baal ha-battim, obviously ignorant in the ways of the world (okay, with deficient secular educationwhich can be attributed to Jewish schools), who listen to fools on the internet and mistake it for wisdom.

    #1632263

    sariray
    Participant

    the difference between cancer and vaccines is obvious , at least to me. Cancer the person is already ill and seeking treatment. It is also usually 100% fatal if untreated. Vaccines are given to PREVENT an illness, many of which are not fatal to the average healthy human. Quite different.

    #1632244

    apushatayid
    Participant

    To the OP:

    “Can you understand that we never entered an agreement that I, who oppose vaccines will get vaccinated, to help protect you?”

    Lets assume this is a halachic and hashkaficly sound statement: What if I rewrote the sentences as follows:

    Can you understand that we never entered an agreement that I, who do not have a child allergic to peanuts will stop sending peanut butter sanwiches with my child to school to help protect your child? What is your response?

    #1632332

    sariray
    Participant

    Am I the only one who gets bothered by comparisons that don’t make any sense?

    #1632295

    sariray
    Participant

    And just as some women have risk factors that make pregnancy dangerous and they don’t have children, so too some people have issues that make vaccines more dangerous for them (such as mthfr mutations a mitochondrial disorder which is genetic and quite common)
    , or auto immune issues) Or siblings who were vaccine damaged and the parents don’t want to take the chance.

    #1632346

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Am I the only one who gets bothered by comparisons that don’t make any sense?”

    no, but after discussing with pro-diseasers for years Ive gotten used to it.
    you’d be shocked how many of them make a variation of the crazy argument that Hashem wouldnt create “imperfect” babies

    #1632317

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Sariray. Peanuts are also not usually fatal to the average healthy human, yet, as a society of civil people the overwhelming majority of people, those not affected in any way, make accommodations for those who are. in this case, those who do not choose to vaccinate and accomodate all the immuno compromised members of the population who are susceptible to these illnesses, are being asked to refrain from being in proximity to those people, at least for the duration of an outbreak of such a disease. what it boild down to is “I dont want to help protect those members of society by getting vaccinated – for whatever valid reason you believe you have – then at the very least respect their wishes by not endangering them by coming into close proximity to them”.

    #1632325

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    sairay
    “Any body who says anti vaxers shouldn’t have a choice is denying the very fundamental truth which is that vaccines are not 100% safe”

    This does not follow. I used the example of seatbelts earlier. Seatbelts are not 100% safe. There are times that people have been harmed by seatblets (probably more than vaccines). Never the less, you are a fool if you dont wear a seatblet. adn I dont think you should have a choice whether to seatbelt your child.

    More to the point though, Idont think you should have a choice to seatbelt MY child. Yes it is sad that as a result of your bad decision not to seatbelt I and sane individuals do not want out children riding in your car .

    Please Please explain this to me, ok for arguments sake you have a right not to vaccinate or seatbelt your child, but why do yo u have the right to not seatbelt mine, or to send your unvaccinated child to our schools?

    #1632343

    sariray
    Participant

    Seriously, you are comparing not getting a vaccine to my kid going to the store and buying a measles sandwich and feeding it to your immunocompromised child….

    #1632351

    The little I know
    Participant

    sariray:

    Comparisons that are senseless is one of the arguing points here. There is much more illogic than meets the eye.

    Each and every medication, whether prescription, over-the-counter, and even nutritional supplements has actions that it accomplishes and side effects. Using any of these requires a judgment that weighs the benefits against the risks. Passing such judgment requires an understanding of the entire picture, not a specific or single report even in the professional literature. The average person is not equipped to make this judgment, and must resort to relying on experts to do that. So until I know that a commenter here on behalf of anti-vaxxing is an expert, I dismiss it as I would do with any non-professional advice. On legal matters, one should consult with an attorney, and on medical matters, with a physician. On Halacha, one asks a Rov, and on a leaky pipe, with a plumber. Lay advice is worthless.

    The cancer patient takes medication that is toxic. Why? Because the benefits of killing the cancer outweigh the risks of the adverse reactions. First, insure survival, then deal with the consequences. A dead patient is useless. The issue of vaccination is that simple. Yes, it can have adverse reactions. So does Tylenol. So does every other medication. Taking it needlessly is not advisable. Why suffer the negatives when there is no gain?

    Rav Sternbuch’s tshuvah here was most revealing in focusing on our obligation to follow mainstream medicine, rather than conspiracy theorists. And mainstream medicine acknowledges that vaccinating is far better than the alternative.

    #1632365

    Joseph
    Participant

    To sariray and others who choose not to vaccinate:

    Would you be happy and accepting if, like yourself or others, EVERYONE chose to not vaccinate?

    #1632382

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Sariray, peanut allergens are airborne.

    #1632395

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Seriously, you are comparing not getting a vaccine to my kid going to the store and buying a measles sandwich and feeding it to your immunocompromised child….”

    Guess what, that IS what you are doing.

    #1632394

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Sariray, to many immuno compromised, they ARE 1 and the same.

    #1632466

    truthishidden
    Participant

    to Joseph:
    Absolutely YES!

    #1632487

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Sariray,

    You have the luxury of living in a world that , because of vaccination, has not known the impact of widespread disease. Go to any Jewish cemetery that dates back to the 1800’s ( like Washington Cemetery in Brooklyn). What you’ll notice is quite a few tree stump monuments. Those are graves of children. My father in law lost 3 siblings who died of diseases that are preventable today. Until the Salk and Sabin vaccines for polio were developed, thousands either died or were paralyzed annually. When Salk asked for volunteers to take the vaccine, the line of mothers and children was almost a mile long. You live in a world made safe for children by vaccinations

    #1632510

    benignuman
    Participant

    Get it clear,

    I understand your position and your feeling of being hurt by the animosity towards yourself and other anti-vaxxer parents. The reason there is animosity–and the reason this issue isn’t simply a question of personal freedom–is because other people’s children can be hospitalized or die due to your failure to vaccinate. Babies under 6 months old and immunocompromised children cannot get vaccinated and are at the most risk for dying from diseases like measles, mumps, whooping cough, or chicken pox.

    It is fine to have your own hashkofos and to do what you believe–however misguided–is best for your children. But what is the justification for grossly increasing the risk to my children?

    #1632569

    sariray
    Participant

    So, basically out of the other hundreds of millions of people on the planet, mine are the ones who are disease vectors…. even with this latest outbreak in the US we only saw less than 100 cases. And if you think that the anti vaxers are the only ones who are capable of catching measles, we have problems. Two of my very own sister in laws who were fully vaccinated as children were told (one was told TWICE) that they needed another MMR. They were tested during pregnancy and surprise, the vaccine was either ineffective of worn off. The vaccine is quite imperfect and many people are not as immune as they think. Add to that number the twenty million undocumented immigrants . Add to that all the immunocompromised. And probably others I can’t rhink of. You should be surprised we haven’t had an outbreak sooner….

    #1632580

    Health
    Participant

    ubiq -“you’d be shocked how many of them make a variation of the crazy argument that Hashem wouldnt create “imperfect” babies”

    If there are such people, why are they accepted in the Frum community?
    They should be treated like any missionary! S/o who spouts Kefira shoudn’t be allowed to live amongst us.

    #1632628

    OURtorah
    Participant

    Getitclear, Sariray and everyone else here who is an antivaxxer:

    Thank you.
    Thank YOU. YOU are the reason we have extinct diseases that left the world when vaccinating became a thing. Your selfishness and ignorance is appalling. Forget about the fact that rabbanim worldwide are calling against anti vaccination, your so called “emunah” in Hashem is a disgrace. (And I’m not going to cover my sarcasm here. I’m truely disappointed in you).

    How dare you ask Hashem to help you or your perfectly healthy unvaccinated children, when Chas veshalom they get sick with one of these diseases. It isn’t very clear that your kids will be sick for 2 weeks with no lasting issues, you have alot of nerve to say something like that. You had an opportunity to boost your children’s immune system and you didn’t.

    Dont come back at me that vaccinating causes issues and problems. I had a reaction to a vaccination and I WILL vaccinate my children. Because the odds of having a serious reaction to a vaccination is so small compared to a. The problems measles , mumps, polio, rubella, diphtheria and the list goes on causes and b. The probelms you cause by not vaccinating (spreading to people who are immunocompromised, pregnant, I’ll, too young or old etc.).

    I am a registered nurse, with years of experience in health care and I simply cannot understand your points. Your emunah is exactly the same as in the joke with the man who is in a flood and a surfboard, boat and helicopter come by to save him and he says nah, Hashem will save me. And when he dies from drowning he goes to Hashem and says why didn’t you save me and Hashem says, but I sent you a surfboard, boat and helicopter and you chose not to use it.

    We are NOT angels and Hashem doesn’t owe us anything if we don’t put in our hishtadlus. And to the person who wrote about cancer drugs- it is 100% relatable to vaccinating. This isn’t about already having a disease or preventing one. It’s about recognizing that Hashem has created medicine to help us and using it IS OUR HISHTADLUS. Yes question the health system all you want, they make many mistakes. But please make informed decisions. Not based on the very very very FEW verified cases of real vaccination reactions (not “well he wasn’t autistic before the vaccine and now he is after the vaccine”. That’s not scientific or informed, that’s a correlation and a story).

    I’m genuinely curious: do u agree with the fact that diseases like measles, polio, rubella etc. We’re rampant and caused many issues and deaths many years ago. Then vaccines came out and the numbers dwindled. And suddenly numbers are growing with the anti vaccination movement? Like can you see this fact or no?

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