Nashim Da'atan Kalos and Women Today

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  • #598159

    Obaminator
    Member

    How does the Gemorah’s principle of Nashim Da’atan Kalos apply today? What can we learn from the Gemorah’s principle. For example, in my business my employees need to keep secrets in a very strict sense. Must I worry that by having female employees their lightheadedness may result in their revealing my corporate secrets to family or friends? (Women do tend to socialize more.)

    P.S. I posted this question in gavra’s similar thread but he told me it was off-topic and he requested I start a new thread.

    #942517

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Thank you Obaminator.

    It would seem that the answer is yes.

    #942518

    Englishman
    Member

    gavra_at_work:

    Are you making the bridge from the Gemorah saying female lightheadedness makes women easier to convince to sin to that it is easier to pry a secret out of a woman?

    #942519

    minyan gal
    Member

    Many women are in professions that require them to keep secrets and they can do it very well, thank you very much. Your assumption is negated by the vast numbers of female doctors, lawyers and nurses, who, by their professional codes of conduct, must conduct themselves with confidientiality. And what about social workers, mediators, Rebbetzins who do counselling, etc, etc.? Even best friends are wonderful secret keepers if requested to – so “lightheadedness” – whatever that is supposed to mean in today’s world – plays no part in the ability for a woman to be discreet.

    #942520

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Certainly, halachos that are based on this principle are still in force today. For example the halacha that one man may not be secluded with 2 women.

    #942521

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Where do you get that datan kalos means lightheadedness?

    #942522

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Where do you get that datan kalos means lightheadedness? From Rashi in Kiddushin it appears the translation is easily persuaded. Light headedness is common translation for Kalus Rosh, which is not the same as datan kalos.

    #942524

    Englishman:

    I don’t think the principle means that it is easier to convince women to sin. But that it is easier to convince women altogether.

    #942525

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Englishman: Seemingly the issue is persuasion, which the Gemorah seems to say it is easier to persuade a female than a male (in general). So if you would have two employees who are exactly the same excepting gender, and I had to steal a secret out of one of them, I would start with the female.

    #942526

    Englishman
    Member

    Derech HaMelech/gavra_at_work:

    Why does the Gemorah make this point? What is it trying to convey/teach/alert us to?

    #942527

    In one case, R’ Shimon bar Yochai was explaining that he was worried his wife might give away his position if she was tortured. Apparently he felt a woman is more likely to cave under torture.

    In the second case, the gemara is explaining why one man can’t be misyached with two women. The gemarah seems to feel that it the man can more easily convince the two women to aveiros than in the inverse case.

    #942528

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    I am not going to comment on the question of whether or not it applies today, but it should be clarified that it is not only about persuasion. It is more general than that. For example, the Beis Yosef in the beginning of Hilchos Shechita cites an opinion that women should not shecht because they are more prone to feeling faint at the sight of all the blood and not shecht properly then men, because nashim da’atam kalos. It is an idea that seems to say that women are generally weaker-hearted than men.

    #942529

    LanderTalmid
    Participant

    I heard that a reason why Hashem gave Nashim this characteristic of daton kalos was so that they would be able to accept having more children and not reject the idea because of the memory of their first birth.

    #942531

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    LT: I’d like to know a source for that.

    #942532

    Just Emes
    Member

    i heard that it obviously is not referring to a woman’s intelligence because they have binah — it rather refers to the ability of women to multi-task more easily than man — i believe i saw this kind of concept in the river kettle and the bird but not completely sure

    #942534

    Health
    Participant

    Just Emes -“i heard that it obviously is not referring to a woman’s intelligence because they have binah — it rather refers to the ability of women to multi-task more easily than man”

    Binah is only a part of a person’s intelligence.

    It is some character flaw and it does affect their intelligence. Because sometimes (most times) they let their emotions control their brain.

    #1771002

    Joseph
    Participant

    Why are some folks uncomfortable acknowledging this Chazal or its truthfulness?

    #1771072

    778899
    Participant

    Daaton kalos means superficial logic.
    This is also includes all the other mentioned interpretations.

    #1771087

    I have been taught that Noshim Daatim kalos means that men and women have different levels of concentration. It is easier for women to focus on more than one thing at a time meaning they are better at multi tasking than men and therefore make for better managers.

    #1771109

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “I have been taught that Noshim Daatim kalos means that men and women have different levels of concentration“

    That goes against the story with bruriah

    #1771138

    lakewhut
    Participant

    That’s a good example

    #1771139

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    They say that there are two kinds of people, thinking and feeling. The women are more feeling people.

    #1771161

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The above is part of a personality test (mbti – Myers Briggs Type Indicator)

    Where you focus your attention – Extraversion (E) or Introversion (I)
    The way you take in information – Sensing (S) or INtuition (N)
    How you make decisions – Thinking (T) or Feeling (F)
    How you deal with the world – Judging (J) or Perceiving (P)

    #1771181

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “Why are some folks uncomfortable acknowledging this Chazal or its truthfulness?”
    I suspect there are many reasons that could be offered in response to your question. One that immediately comes to mind is that there are many who purport to quote chazal or bring down inyanim from chazal who manage to distort its meaning and application to the facts of contemporary life. Its not the “truthfulness” of chazal itself but the veracity and “spin” of those who invoke it out of context or apply their own bias or misogyny in its interpretation.

    #1771082

    Phil
    Participant

    “Why are some folks uncomfortable acknowledging this Chazal or its truthfulness?”

    Simple; most people mistakenly associate da’as with intelligence and they know of many intelligent females. They also know of many males who seem so unintelligent as they spew their nasty opinions all over the web.

    You have nothing better to do during the Nine Days than troll an old thread last updated six years ago, in the hope of getting people upset? What a shame since you seem to have been behaving yourself for the past few weeks.

    #1771129

    Joseph
    Participant

    “That goes against the story with bruriah”

    But it’s politically more expedient and correct to reinterpret it differently than Chazal, Rishonim and Achronim to better fit the 21st century Western model and sensibilities.

    Do it for “kiruv”.

    #1771302

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    GH – I so rarely agree with you to this degree. Well spoken. And forgive me for expecting something much less (if at all) supportive of chazal and halacha.

    Joseph – I used to think you were a frum, educated person with very poor role models. Today you have removed any doubt that Hashem’s will is not yours.
    Feel free to feign ignorance.

    #1771264

    blacknwhite
    Participant

    The Gemara said a great many things that does not comport with now-known facts: most well-known is that the sun revolves around the earth, but there are many other examples as well. When confronted with this, one has two options: One, say that the Gemara was wrong, or Two, try to interpret the untrue statements in a way that matches now-known facts. It would be ludicrous, however, to insist that the literal reading is correct and the sun does revolve around the earth.
    The same is true here. Nashim Da’tan Kalos cannot mean that the female intelligence is in any way inferior to male intelligence because it simply is not supported; to the contrary, women excel in the fields of medicine, law, and business. So, we have two options, we can say that the Gemara was referring to women in the times of the Talmud who were largely uneducated and were not given the chance to develop their intelligence, or we can interpret that statement in some other way. But it would be ludicrous to give that statement any literal translation.

    #1771444

    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    There is no proof that the gemara was wrong about the sun going around the earth

    #1771451

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The way we see it is that the sun is moving. The Magen Avraham says by lighting candles for yom tov אין הכמה לאשה no differentiation between shabbos and yom tov.

    #1771568

    Joseph
    Participant

    Nashim Da’atan Kalos is as true today as it was in the time of Chazal. To attempt to claim that Chazal made a mistake or even trying to reinterpret Chazal to something other than its original meaning how the meforshim explain it is simply apikorsus.

    #1771659

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “Nashim Da’tan Kalos cannot mean that the female intelligence is in any way inferior to male intelligence because it simply is not supported; “

    Blackandwhite,

    1) דעת isn’t the same as חכמה you’re talking about חכמה we’re talking about דעת

    2) the story with ברוריה disproves you too, so women back then we’re like that (maybe you can say something changed, but if for sure was the מציות back then)

    #1771684

    interjection
    Participant

    The language of the Gemara was specifically da’as. The question is what does da’as mean? How does it differentiate from chochma or binah? Were they referring to da’as as in the literal translation, i.e. intelligence? The same word is used in terms of a union between man and woman (Adam yada es Chava), so did they choose that word because women are only allowed to be married to one man while men are allowed many wives? Were they referring to the da’as that is brought down in Sefer Yetzirot? Were they referring to the deep awareness of Hashem, which is called da’as?

    To use the phrase “nashim datan kalos” as business advice is silly unless you delved deeply into all the sources to understand what was meant.

    #1771688

    interjection
    Participant

    “I heard that a reason why Hashem gave Nashim this characteristic of daton kalos was so that they would be able to accept having more children and not reject the idea because of the memory of their first birth.”

    That’s a very cute interpretation but most women don’t forget the pain of pregnancy and birth. They do it because they want more children but not because they forgot what they went through.

    #1771693

    bk613
    Participant

    “The Gemara said a great many things that does not comport with now-known facts: most well-known is that the sun revolves around the earth, but there are many other examples as well. ”
    Joseph, how would you respond to this?

    #1771706

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    These are the words of the Shulchan Aruch:

    שולחן ערוך יורה דעה הלכות תלמוד תורה סימן רמו סעיף ו
    צוו חז”ל שלא ילמד אדם את בתו תורה, מפני שרוב הנשים אין דעתן מכוונת להתלמד, ומוציאות דברי תורה לדברי הבאי לפי עניות דעתן. אמרו חכמים: כל המלמד את בתו תורה, כאילו מלמדה תיפלות (פי’ דבר עבירה). כה] בד”א בתורה שבע”פ; <ד> אבל תורה שבכתב לא ילמד אותה לכתחלה, ואם מלמדה אינו כמלמדה תיפלות (רמב”ם וסמ”ג ולא כמקצת ספרי הטור).

    #1771711

    Joseph
    Participant

    bk613: Others have already answered the sun/earth rotation issue.

    Anything Chazal say always was, is and will remain 100% Emes.

    #1771731

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer’s words:

    חתם סופר מסכת נדה דף מה עמוד ב
    בינה יתירא באשה יותר מבאיש אם הדבר כפשוטו הוא תמוה קצת ומוכחש בחוש והנ”ל בזה ע”ד שאמרו אם אין בינה אין דעת ואם אין דעת אין בינה והמובן מפשוטו הוא כי הבינה הוא העיון החריף ההולך לעיין למרחוק והוא טועה ברוב ע”ד אגב חורפא שבשתא. וע”כ צריך לזה מדה אחרת והוא הדעת ליישב הדברים בלבו ולעיין באחריתם הטובה היא אם רעה

    #1771745

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    interjection – it could be related. Because of eitz hadaas women were punished to suffer at birth, so in order to
    forget it and have more children, there daas was diminished.

    #1771814

    Lucy
    Participant

    Whats the story with Bruriah?

    #1771847

    Benephraim
    Participant

    Chazal did not say it must be so or it always will be so. They spoke of the milieu when it was so. Today it is up to our Chazal to decide if our Nashim are like their ancestors or not.

    #1771859

    DrYidd
    Participant

    joseph, i would choose Prof. christine hayes’ daas over yours in a nanosecond.

    #1771869

    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    The story is that breuriah mocked what chachomim said that noshim daatan kallos, her husband told one of his students to try to convince her to do an avira with him, eventually he succeeded, and then he told her that it was just a trick and what chachomim said was true, then she committed suicide

    #1771879

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You have nothing better to do during the Nine Days than troll an old thread last updated six years ago, in the hope of getting people upset? What a shame since you seem to have been behaving yourself for the past few weeks.

    Perhaps, if you think it was necessary to give mussar, you could have done it in a nicer way, especially during the nine days.

    #1771885

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Perhaps, if you think it was necessary to give mussar, you could have done it in a nicer way, especially during the nine days.
    Perhaps you are underestimating the severity of that behavior at this time of year. (<—-mussar given in a nicer way)

    #1771892

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Perhaps it still warrants behind nice.

    #1771914

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Benephraim
    “Chazal did not say it must be so or it always will be so. They spoke of the milieu when it was so. Today it is up to our Chazal to decide if our Nashim are like their ancestors or not.”

    Being as “chazal ”
    Is an acronym for חכמינו זכרונם לברכה it’s pretty tough to get “chazal” of our days

    #1772026

    Heckter Chalavim
    Participant

    Just read this post. I am very impressed. Appears to me me that the writer asking the question here is a woman.

    #1772022

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Beruriah ,
    Where do you see that he made it his
    “life’s battle cry”?
    Every time someone takes a position it becomes their life’s battle cry?
    So if there would be an argument about which flavor ice cream is best and he said vanilla,you’d say his life’s battle cry is vanilla ice cream??
    Perhaps you really are a woman. And perhaps you are illustrating the flimsy daas of a woman. (though that’s not what the quote means)
    And the best offense you can come up with is a spelling mistake? Which may even have been an auto correct???
    I guess Josef must be on solid ground

    #1772020

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Wow,

    Bruriah came up from the grave just to knock joe

    🙄

    As we’ve been saying all along דעתן קלות doesn’t mean stupid it means emotional

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