Natural-Hair Sheitels Are Assur

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  • #1396815

    GAON
    Participant

    Dance/ Joseph:

    Sorry, but All your comment seem to agenda-based. We know that there are many Osrim on Pe’ah Nuchris, and have different opinions of why it is Assur and why we need to cover in the first place. All yours, Joseph’s and others reasons, are all based on the opinion that prohibit it .
    However, we rely on the Poskei Hadoros:
    The REMA in “דרכי משה, who quotes the ,שלטי הגיבורים who clearly allows in Reshus haRabim – wearing NATURAL hair. There are no IF’s and But’s to their psak. Following their opinion are the:
    מגן אברהם, לבוש, פרישה, אליה רבה, “שו”ע הרב, מחצית השקל, ביאור הגר”א and others
    I hope you understand the magnitude of these Poskim, as anyone trying to rule differently — ידו על תחתונה.
    In terms of Halacha, these are The Poskim that makeup the majority! Joseph is welcome to start bringing a pile of Admorim, stories and local recent poskim – it does NOT change the fact that the above Poskim are the final Authorities in ALL aspects of Halacha ומימיהם אנו שותים!

    Yes, there are many later Achronim that do prohibit it, as for why? or when is really beyond the scope of this post.
    However, I will just summarize in short:
    Basically, there are two components to covering hair, one is biblical (termed Dat Moshe) and one is ‘Dat ‘Yehadis’ which is basically an act of tzinius that Bnos Yisrael accepted upon themselves, and that part is mostly ‘relatively minhag based’ and has constantly been changed, updated in the course of time, or with the change of different regions. E.g. in the Rambam’s times girls covered their hair as well, and so is it in the Shulchan Aruch in E”H, as that was the custom of ‘modesty’ at the time, even among non-Jews (i.e. Muslim countries – as was the recent Yemenite minhag).
    Later, as of 1800’s early 1900’s, wearing a wig was uncommon (as per SHU”T Divrei Chaim of Sanz) and only “pritzus” women wore wigs, even in Germany – anyone seen with a wig was thought of as going ‘uncovered’ (especially, that many frum women in Russia and Poland did go uncovered at one point – see Rav Shlomo Kluger responsum, Magen Geborim ch 75 due to gezeros) and was against the accepted Minhag at the time.

    Whereas nowadays, wigs are easily available and, most Charedi women don wigs, therefore there is no reason why one would think one going as ‘uncovered’, and once the Minhag has been accepted, there is automatically no Dat Yehudit .

    Hence, all poskim you quote are IRRELEVANT!

    #1396816

    GAON
    Participant

    Marbe,

    As per Rav Belsky, if I remember correct, its a factual and lomdot question; he agrees that “some” indeed shave their hair as an “offer per se”, but he claims that according to all Hindu priests it is a concept of self-sacrifice only – NOT Takrovas, and therefore, what each individual does is considered “shlo kederech Avodah” and permitted. Rav Elyashov, I think, never responded on that point.

    #1397225

    yehudayona
    Participant

    I’m wondering if Dancingmom is one of Joseph’s aliases.

    #1397249

    dancingmom
    Participant

    The wigs worn in the times of the Shiltei Giborim, the Rema and all the other poskim quoted looked NOTHING liked the wigs of today. They allowed an item that is completely different from today’s wigs. Wigs than looked liked head coverings- they didn’t have the technology of today. .
    The heter was a huge debate among poskim- and many great Gedolim did assur the wigs.
    But that’s not the point. The point is that today’s wigs are completely hypocritical and immodest. There’s a reason why the wig and extension business is a multi billion dollar industry- the wigs are so beautifying, usually much more so than ones own hair. Wigs in the times of the Gemara were not beautifying like today’s sheitels – which are very provocative. You could quote as many sources as you want justifying these wigs- the truth is plain to see in the streets. Many frum women look unmarried and extremely attracting with natural looking and pretty wigs. It’s a total mockery of the mitzvah

    Bh there are currently a lot women that are recognizing this hypocrisy and are starting to wear tichels which are the ideal head covering – both halachically and hashkafically.

    #1397254

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s assur to look provocative; it’s not assur to look pretty.

    #1397257

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Women shouldn’t look pretty. It’s against their natures.

    #1397263

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “I’m wondering if Dancingmom is one of Joseph’s aliases.”

    Perhaps and intern?

    #1397268

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    A woman should strive to look like the humble potato, which is a staple of the kitchen, which is where a woman belongs, because women are skilled at turning the dumpy potato into delicacies such as the succulent french fry.

    #1397270

    Finance
    Participant

    There are a few issues here.

    1- Rav Moshe already paskened 40 years ago that sheitlach are muttar and Indian hair is not an issue since those hairs from the temple don’t come to market. Rav Wosner and Rav Elyashiv were the daas yechidem and the velt followed Rav Moshe.
    2- there are people that love to denigrate this generation’s posek hador Rav Belski and not put him in the same league as others in Israel. Rav Belski in many ways is undisputed since he is the only to truly investigate each case on his own before issuing a psak. We know unfortunately that gedolim rely on third parties for informational and at times unscrupulous people gave misinformation to further ones agenda.

    #1397286

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The ONLY issue here IMO is, what does your Rav say you should do.

    #1397259

    dancingmom
    Participant

    Hair is provocative – period.
    The reason that the Torah prohibits a married woman to reveal her hair is the following:
    אסור גלוי הראש אינו אלא משום פריצות דגברי (תרומת הדשן)
    The prohibition of revealing one’s hair is because hair is Pritzus. Since the hair of a married woman is attractive to another man and can cause him to sin, it must be covered. The mitzvah of kisui rosh is not a chok.
    Single women are trying to attract a mate so they don’t need to cover their hair. It doesn’t mean that they could wear unrefined hair styles.
    A married women has to have an extra level of tznius upon marriage- it’s a grave sin for a man to look at a married woman. Hence she is commanded to cover her hair which is a major source of attraction.
    Her hair becomes erva after marriage- it has the potential to cause a man to be attracted to her.
    Wearing a sheitel that looks like ones hair or is nicer than ones own hair is defeating the entire purpose of the mitzvah. Secular Jews and non Jews get the hypocrisy of today’s wigs right away. It’s only the frum Jews who endlessly defend the wigs.
    We are so machmir on all aspects of judiasm- except with the sheitels. It’s really a total avoda Zora. Women should wear their sheitels at home for their husbands where they should be worn and they should wear tichels outside so they actually look like modest religious married Jewish women.

    #1397281

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “rabbi blesky as great as he was…we still follow rabbi elyashiv who was in a different league of gadlus.”

    Is this what chazal had in mind when they taught, asay licha Rav.

    #1397285

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Most women mistakenly believe that wigs were worn as head coverings by Jewish women for hundreds of years and that it is part of our mesora”

    One can make the same statement about black fedoras and shtreimlach too. Regarding your peah nachris comment, a gemara at the end of Sanhedrin seems to indicate otherwise.
    I’ll try to find it and reference it.

    #1397421

    apushatayid
    Participant

    See Sanhedrin kuf yud beis amud alef, maybe 5-10 lines from the bottom of the amud. the gemara discusses a shayla if the hair of nashim tzikaniyos are included in the shalal of an ir hanidachas. See Rashi and other meforshim.

    #1397482

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    In all my years on YWN, I don’t believe I can recall anyone dismissively characterizing the views of R’ Elyashiv, Z”TL as “daas yachid” (aka an outlying opinion) that should be ignored in favor of a more prevalent view among other rabbonim. Nor have I heard R’ Belsky characterized as a second tier posek in comparison to someone else. In any event, we hold by our own LRP and its up to him to advise us as to which of the gadolim he relies upon for the guidance he provides to us.

    #1397497

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Dancingmom, it makes no sense for women to wear sheitels for their husbands. Women wear sheitels for other women; men can’t tell two sheitels apart.

    #1397726

    catch yourself
    Participant

    One could say by the same token, Gadolhadorah, that it’s easier to criticize others for focusing on Halachic issues instead of on introspection, than it is to be introspective yourself.
    Not that I disagree with you; people like me should certainly spend more time on introspection than we do.
    However, I do not agree with your attempt to slam the door on this discussion, and I emphatically disagree with your tactic. There is no reason for personal attacks here.
    Actually, this is a perfectly valid debate about an important Halachic issue. The fact that the practical aspect of this Halacha relates more to women than to men is no reason for men not to discuss it and invest great energy in it. I doubt you would have made the same observation about a discussion of the Halachos of lighting candles on Friday night.
    All of these issues were litigated multiple times over the years, most recently about ten years ago. I heard from a source very close to Rav Belsky that when Rav Belsky went to Rav Elyashiv’s house to discuss the questions about Sheitlach, Rav Elyashiv acknowledged that he was not provided with compelling evidence to support an Issur, and that according to Rav Belsky’s data it would be Muttar. No change in the Metzius is alleged in the recent Kol Koreh.
    If I remember correctly, Rav Belsky was joined in allowing Indian Sheitlach by Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky, Rav Dovid Feinstein, Rav Dovid Cohen, Rav Feivel Cohen, and the vast majority of Poskim in America at the time. Unlike the Anisakis worm and Copepod issues (which were going on at around the same time), there was broad consensus on this, at least on this side of the Atlantic.

    #1398164

    GAON
    Participant

    J/Dancing:
    “The reason that the Torah prohibits a married woman to reveal her hair is the following”

    Based on your posts, it seems that you are really misinformed, and have no clue what the very argument was in the first place. You should really sit down and read the very sources – not copy/paste from a book, and then comment. As the very claim of differentiating Human hair, is to a degree ignoramus.

    On the other hand, I’m not sure you are capable of that, and other readers might benefit, thus I will quote:

    The source of all Matirim is the Shiltie Giborim, so let’s see what exactly he has to say:
    שלטי הגיבורים” על הרי”ף שבת כ”ט ע”ב מדפי הרי”ף
    “יראה מזה להביא ראיה וסמך לנשים היוצאות בכיסוי שערות שלהן כשהן נשואות, אבל במקום קליעת שערן נושאות שערות חברותיהן שקורין קרינאל”ו בלע”ז, מההיא דשנינו פרק במה מההיא דשנינו פרק במה אשה יוצאה שהאשה יוצאה בפאה נכרית בשבת, ופירשו המפרשים, כי פאה נכרית היא מגבעת, ידבקו בו שיער נאה והרבה, ותשים אותו האשה על ראשה כדי שתתקשט בשיער, והתם באשה נשואה מיירי מתניתין, מדקאמר בגמ’ דהטעם משום דלא תתגנה על בעלה הרי דבנשואה מיירי, והרי פאה נכרית הוי ממש כעין אלו הקרניא”ל, ומשמע להדיא שמותרות בנות ישראל להתקשט בהן, דשיער באשה ערוה דקאמר לא הוי אלא בשיער הדבוק לבשרה ממש ונראה גם בשרה עם השיער, אבל שיער המכסה שערה אין כאן משום שיער באשה ערוה וגם לא משום פרועת ראש.
    ונראה דלא שנא שערות דידה לא שנא שערות של חברתה, כל עוד דעבידי לכיסוי השיער והן תלושות, אע”פ דקישוט הוא לה כדי שתראה בעלת שיער, אין בכך כלום ושפיר דמי….ולכשתעיין סוף פרק קמא דערכין ופרק מי שמתו בדברי רש”י שם ובדברי הרא”ש, תמצא דאין איסור בשיער
    ” אשה משום ערוה אלא במחובר לבשרה וגם שהבשר נראה עם השיער כדאוקימנא

    As you can see the source of all Matirim is specific loud and clear:
    “אע”פ דקישוט הוא לה כדי שתראה בעלת שיער, אין בכך כלום ושפיר דמי”
    i.e. that even if her purpose is to look pretty as if wearing own hair – it is Muttar.
    And is ONLY prohibited when :
    במחובר לבשרה וגם שהבשר נראה עם השיער

    Whereas, the opposing poskim i.e. the Bee’r Sheva etc. opposed for THAT very reason Joseph and Dancing is mentioning, that how can you say its muttar its still attractive “looks like hair” etc. (see Bee’r Sheva)…!

    Despite all that, the Remah and more specifically the Magen Avraham defends the shiltas Shiltei Giborim and rules like him, the same with all others mentioned above – all ruled in favor of the Shiltei Giborim, despite all arguments of the opposing Be’er Sheva.
    The Kaf Hachaim in ch 75 says the Shiltei Giborim is the final psak of all Achronim.

    As far as current Da’as Torah goes:
    The Chazon Ish, Rav Moshe and the Brisker Rav ZTL held that its preferably to go with a Pe’eh Nachris and not machmir to cover your hair.

    Modesty is sure an issue as all general issues with Tznius, but it has nothing with the above mentioned issue.

    #1398236

    slominer
    Participant

    What halachic logic would make a posek “prefer” a sheitel over a tichel?

    #1398416

    GAON
    Participant

    Dancing-
    ” Many frum women look unmarried and extremely attracting with natural looking and pretty wigs. It’s a total mockery of the mitzvah”
    So what is your suggestion? Asuur to ALL ?!
    Would you prefer them going with their own hair, as was the case in pre-war Europe in most Russian and Polish cities and towns?

    This is exactly the very problem of the entire A”Z hair issue – even if you would to have a legit argument, in regards to the AZ India issue, people like you have an agenda against the very wearing of Shaitels, thus, the cry of “A”Z hair” will never be taken as serious.

    #1398607

    GAON
    Participant

    Slonim:
    Here is a quote of Rav Chaim Kenievsky:
    “בשם החזון איש אומרים, שיש מעלה בפאה, משום שמכסה את כל השערות. ואה”נ, באשה שמקפידה שלא יצאו כל שערותיה אין שום עדיפות [אבל אין זה מצוי, והמטפחת מחליקה מידי פעם ונראה השיער. וכוונתו לאפוקי ממש”כ כמה מהפוסקים, שיש עדיפות מטעמים אחרים, כגון שלא יתן עינו באשה אחרת]. ויש אחרונים שמחמירים בפאה, אך אצלנו לא נהגו להחמיר”.
    – ספר נזר החיים

    Rav Moshe ZTL:

    “וזכורני מיד לאחר נשואי שאלתי את הגאון הגדול הנ”ל [בעל אגרות משה] אם צריך ללבוש כובע על הפאה נכרית, ואמר לי שאין צריך. ועוד הוסיף לומר לי כי פאה נכרית יותר טוב ממטפחת, כי פאה נכרית מכסה את כל השערות, ועוד שבזה תמיד נשאר מכוסה כל זמן שהיא על ראשה, מה שאין כן במטפחת”

    – שו”ת אור יצחק – אה”ע סי’ ג’

    I figure it only applies when you have no specific minhag to go covered.

    #1398181

    GAON
    Participant

    Yid,
    “A woman should strive to look like the humble potato”which is a staple of the kitchen, which is where a woman belongs, because women are skilled at turning the dumpy potato into delicacies such as the succulent french fry.”
    I think Joseph will go more for the Potato Kugel look…

    #1398809

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Dancingmom says “Hair is provocative, period.” Good thing I’m losing mine. I certainly wouldn’t want to be provocative.

    #1398825

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Many frum women look unmarried and extremely attracting”

    About the 1st part of this quote…is there an issur for a married woman to look “unmarried”? Alternatively, is there some inyan for a married woman to look married?

    #1398857

    Joseph
    Participant

    “is there an issur for a married woman to look “unmarried”? Alternatively, is there some inyan for a married woman to look married?”

    The Sefer HaChinuch writes that, while according to Halacha Kiddushin can be performed with any marginally valuable item, the custom is to utilize a ring. The reason he gives is that it serves as a “constant reminder” to her status.

    #1398864

    dancingmom
    Participant

    Rav Elyashiv z”l and Rav Vozner z”l were the most recent Gedolim in our times, they were “fortunate” to see the current sheitels. They knew all the earlier poskim you mentioned, and they even quote them in their writings. Their final psak was לאיסור גמור ומוחלט בלי שום פשרות.

    Now for us to go start debating on the previous sources after we have the final bottom line psak is not only senseless but rather reckless and dangerous. We don’t have the knowledge regarding this sugya as they had and they ruled לאיסור without compromise.

    This sugya is not simple at all and the average layman is unfamiliar with so many facts around the words of the שלטי הגיבורים – it’s not rational to take his words at face value. Here’s just one example of many to demonstrate this:

    The same מגן אברהם that you quoted that brings the שיטה of the שלטי גבורים HE himself harshly prohibited even unmarried girls (whose hair is not yet consider ערוה) to go out with long loose hair because it’s פריצות!

    Does it make any sense that our girls in school are taught at a young age to keep their hair shoulder length and in a pony tail for modesty (to follow the מגן אברהם) Yet when they become an אשת איש ALL boundaries disappear!

    It’s just amazing how the most educated people can quote and twist all these sources to support the current immodest looking wigs and completely miss the fact that the wigs in the times of these Poskim looked NOTHING like the wigs of today. It was a heter (which was a heated dispute) on an item that was completely different from today. Even if the wigs than were made out of human hair- they didn’t have the technology of today and they looked like helmets not like silky natural hair.

    This is not about assur/mutar regarding the sheitels- this is about a serious breach of tznius that is causing frum men to stumble and causing a tremendous chillul Hashem.

    But please go on posting all the sources that supported today’s immodest wigs (even though they never saw them)

    Heaven forbid frum women should have to (gasp!) give up their expensive custom “hair” that most likely comes from Indian temples- and Chas vashalom have to consider covering their hair with a scarf or hat (which Rav Elyashiv and many other Gedolim called “glatt” as the tichel was never a dispute among Poskim) Imagine – married women will actually look like they have head coverings on. What a concept.

    #1398877

    dancingmom
    Participant

    As to why married women cover their hair:

    Rav Falk writes in his pamphlet Mitzvos Kisui Saaros that “The Torah requires a married women to conceal her hair from the eyes of the public in order to lessen attraction to herself.” (page 7)
    He continues: “An unmarried maiden may attract attention to herself (within the boundaries of tznius) so that she is sought after and eventually marries (Ta’anis 13a and Kesubos 52b). Similarly, a man may look at a girl and take an interest in her appearance, chein, mannerisms etc. if he is considering her for marriage for himself or someone else. A married woman may, however, neither attract attention to herself (Kesubos 73a Rashi v.s. Sahara. See also Rosh and Ritvo) nor may a man take an interest in the appearance of an eishes ish, as she is unavailable to everyone but her husband.
    For this reason the hair of a girl may be seen, whilst the hair of a married woman, which is naturally a major source of attraction to her, must be covered and hidden from the eye of the public. Accordingly, for a married woman to wear a head covering that easily passes as her own hair, defeats the very function of this mitzvah, since a man seeing her can think that he is seeing her own hair and be attracted by it, especially when he does not know who she is and whether she is married or not.
    A similar but different reason why just a married woman must cover her hair is based on the verse “stolen waters are sweet” (Mishlei 9:17). Due to this phenomenon there is a special yetzer hora towards a married woman since she is an eishes ish (see Sanhedrin 75a and Avoda Zarah 20a). The mitzvah of kisui sa’aros was given to lessen attraction to such a person and safeguard Kedushas Yisroel. See Oz Vehadar Levusha, page 265 that in numerous places in the Torah hair is highlighted as a major source of attraction. Accordingly, by commanding the married woman to withhold from the public how she looks in her true hair, there is far less danger of a person being drawn to her and Kedushas Yisroel is guaranteed.
    A natural looking sheitel is furthermore forbidden because of Maris hoayin (it appears that the person is sinning), as some observers will not be able to discern whether this woman has covered her hair or not.” (pages 7-9)

    #1398879

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Dancingmom, shoulder length hair is not actually very tzniusdik. A girl should wear her hair long in a braid.*

    *Only long hair can be braided, so yeah.

    #1398883

    dancingmom
    Participant

    One more point-
    Logically speaking if kisui rosh wasn’t about modesty than it wouldn’t be fine for women to see a married woman’s hair.
    Only men are not allowed to see a married women’s hair- of course it’s best for a woman to have her hair covered at all times even at home where no one is around but that’s not Halacha.
    According to Halacha women can have their hair exposed in front of other women. It’s obviously about modesty- men are not allowed to see a married woman’s full beauty. Her hair is a major source of attraction so it needs to be covered after marriage and reserved for her husband ONLY.

    #1398894

    hml
    Participant

    Wow! I can’t believe this has started up again, but then again, Joseph does like to stir the pot, doesn’t he?

    According to OUR mesorah, it is better to wear a sheitel than a hat, tichel, or anything else, and a woman should look pretty and put together. Human hair is so much nicer than horsehair, which is what my Bubba wore. So Joey, since YOUR poskim ain’t mine I’ll ignore everything you said. Which YOU no doubt do if YOUR Rav disagrees with another.

    Lastly… since you and your poskim have banned human hair sheitlach, I won’t let you try mine on. So there.

    #1398915

    dancingmom
    Participant

    regarding todays sheitels being our “mesora”: (from the book “Adorned with Dignity” by C. T. Friedman)

    “I Have to Follow My Mesorah”
    The yetzer hara will try to convince us that we cannot deviate from the tradition of our family, and we have to follow our mesorah. Let us honestly ask ourselves, “What type of sheitel did my grandmother or great-grandmother wear? Was it as long, flowing, and natural-looking? Surely not; it was short, stiff, and wiggy-looking.”
    (Moreover, we need only go back a few generations until most of us will discover that either our great-grandmother, great-great-grandmother, or a previous ancestor wore a kerchief as a head-covering instead of a sheitel. This head-covering dates all the way back to Sarah Imeinu. As mentioned earlier, this tradition was broken due to the horrors of the Holocaust and the modernization of some communities.)

    When a woman upgrades her level of covering the head, she brings nachas to Hashem and to her deceased ancestors in Shamayim. This will serve as as an aliyas neshamah for her grandparents and as a zechus for her and her family.

    On pg 80:

    “We support and bless those women who have returned to the age-old custom of covering their head with a kerchief instead of a wig in order to fulfill the opinion of all poskim…and especially in today’s times when many of the contemporary wigs are not in line with the guidelines of tznius.”(Letter signed by Harav Shmuel Halevi Wosner zt”l; Harav Lipkowitz; Harav R’ Hager, Rebbe of Viznitz; Harav Karelitz; Harav Shmuel Aurbach (in name of his father, Harav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt”l); Harav Gestetner, yb”l; Harav Elyashiv zt”l. )

    #1398924

    hml
    Participant

    To dancingmom

    Do I infer that your nom de plume means you like to dance? The minuet? The waltz? The dances of the Renaissance? How far back are you prepared to go to follow your practices?

    Don’t try to force your views on others. I can just imagine how you’d explode if I told you you had to follow mine. Some of them are extremely challenging & I am 63 years old, and I’ve been following them for ever! If you believe in going back thousands of years, that’s fine with me, but please…. be consistent. Wear all the rest of the clothing from the time of Sarah Imeinu, since that was the custom then.

    Lastly…. “ALL” poskim? Err…no. So that negates the entire argument.

    #1399006

    GAON
    Participant

    Dancing,
    ““What type of sheitel did my grandmother or great-grandmother wear? Was it as long, flowing, and natural-looking? Surely not; it was short, stiff, and wiggy-looking.”

    You remind me of a true story; one ultra frum yid in Jerusalem that was makpid not to have a phone in his house – why? He explained being that “in the Heim in his shtetll we didn’t use one”. When he told that to an Adom Gadol, he answered him: you know why they didn’t have one?

    Because there was none!

    If Natural looking hair would have been available – they would have had one.

    The שלטי הגיבורים case is simple – one is permitted to take her OWN hair and cover herself and walk like that in Reshus haRabim. That means, a Kallah getting married can cut her own long braids and use that as a covering. Period!
    (Note, the Levush does argue on using ones own hair)

    “The same מגן אברהם that you quoted that brings the שיטה of the שלטי גבורים HE himself harshly prohibited even unmarried girls (whose hair is not yet consider ערוה) to go out with long loose hair because it’s פריצות!”

    Why are you confusing two different issues?

    One is about natural looking hair in a MODEST form (whatever you define “modest”), which is Muttar as per final poskim – even if it looks exactly like hair! And then we have the issue of immodest looking Shaitels – which is an issue on its own, even if it would to be synthetic.

    Wearing a bright red scarf can also be an issue of Tzinuos – will you asser all scarfs then?

    #1399070

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Moreover, we need only go back a few generations until most of us will discover that either our great-grandmother, great-great-grandmother, or a previous ancestor wore a kerchief as a head-covering instead of a sheitel. ”

    they could barely afford a piece of chicken, and almost never ate meat either.

    the gemara sanhedrin 112a several lines from the bottom is clear that women owned a “peah nachris” and commonly wore it out of the house. and they wore it “linoi”, Rashis explanation, not mine.

    #1399071

    GAON
    Participant

    Rav Elyashiv z”l and Rav Vozner z”l were the most recent Gedolim in our times, they were “fortunate” to see the current sheitels. They knew all the earlier poskim you mentioned, and they even quote them in their writings. Their final psak was לאיסור גמור ומוחלט בלי שום פשרות.”

    Whilst I’m not sure about Rav Wosner, Rav Elyashiv NEVER assered any non-Indian Sheitels. Please Stop confusing different issues with diff psakim.

    If you do have any written psak – please quote the sources.

    #1399078

    GAON
    Participant

    “הנה בענין פאה נכרית שנשאלתי מרעיתך הרבנית הכבודה תחי’… אף דאיכא מאן דחושש לאסור
    פאה נכרית משום מראית עין… מ”מ רוב רבותינו וגם מאלו שסומכין עיקרי ההוראה עליהם מתירים,
    והם הרמ”א שם ובסימן ש”ג בדרכי משה, והמג”א והפמ”ג, וכן משמע גם מהגר”א שסובר כן, שלא
    אסרו בזה משום מראית העין. וכמעט שמוכרח מהגמ’ פרק במה אשה, שאם איירי דיוצאה בפאה
    נכרית דוקא במכוסה, לא היה שייך לומר דעל שערות זקנה לילדה ניחוש למחכו עלה. והטעם פשוט,
    שכיון שלא מצינו בגמ’ שאסרו, אין למילף ממקומות אחרים שאסרו משום מראית עין…

    – שו”ת “אגרות משה” אה”ע חלק ב’ סי’ י”ב –

    We see clearly Rav Moshe’s opinion that there is NO issue with מראית עין!

    As for reasoning’s we can quote:

    באשר לשאלתו בדין פאה נכרית לנשים נשואות, אם דינה כמו שיער ראשה שאסור לגלותה משום
    הרהור, דלפעמים היא יותר יפה משיער ראשה ומייפה אותה יותר, ואתי לידי הרהור, וכן משום
    מראית העין, דהרואה נדמה לו שהן שערותיה ממש… הנה זה לשון הדרכי משה… ומותר לאשה
    נשואה לגלות פאה נכרית שלה, לא שנא אם היא עשויה משערותיה או משיער חברתה, דאין שיער
    באשה ערוה אלא דוקא שערותיה המדובקים בבשרה, אבל לא בתלושין העשויות לכסות שערותיה
    האחרות, אע”ג דעבדה לקישוט שתהא נראית בעלת שיער. ע”כ. ונראה בטעם הדבר, דהוא משום
    דקים להו לרבנן, שאין יצה”ר שולט אלא בדבר הדבוק בגוף האשה עצמה, היינו הדבר הדבוק בגוף
    הערוה עצמה, דאין שליטה להיצה”ר אלא בדבר שיש לו נפש חיונית, לא בדבר שאין לו נפש חיונית,
    ולכן בנתלש מגוף האשה, דניטל ממנו נפש החיונית, הרי פקע ממנו אותה הערוה שהיתה עליו בזמן
    שהיה דבוק בגוף האשה, דהרי הוא כפגר מת שאין להיצה”ר שליטה בו, ולכן התירו להסתכל בו, דכיון
    שאין להיצה”ר שליטה בו, הרי לא יבוא לידי הרהור”.

    – שו”ת “ישכיל עבדי” – חלק ז’, אה”ע סי’ ט”ז – הגאון הספרדי רבי עובדיה הדאיה זצ”ל, ראש ישיבת המקובלים בית אל –

    #1399081

    GAON
    Participant

    APY,
    “the gemara sanhedrin 112a several lines from the bottom is clear that women owned a “peah nachris” and commonly wore it out of the house. and they wore it “linoi”, Rashis explanation, not mine.”

    Thanks for the Marei Makom!!

    However, I’m not sure its so clear where exactly it was worn. I can see the Osrim saying pshat that it was only worn inside or in the courtyard, etc. The gemora in Shabbos, however, is more clear that it is speaking about going outside, as per the שלטי הגיבורים….

    #1399212

    dancingmom
    Participant

    please post the words of rav ovadia yosef and the sheitel company article

    #1399279

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Dancingmom, if going way, way, way back to discover our true mesorah, my ancestors were ovdei avoda zara. What then?

    #1399296

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Does it make any sense that our girls in school are taught at a young age to keep their hair shoulder length and in a pony tail for modesty (to follow the מגן אברהם) Yet when they become an אשת איש ALL boundaries disappear!’

    Actually, that happens even before they are married – as soon as they finish school and are in shidduchim, they no longer have to wear their hair in a pony tail.
    That’s because the reason for the pony tail is that it’s a school rule and not because everyone follows the Magen Avraham. They also stop wearing school uniforms at the same time, for the same reason.

    The school rule about pony tails is a relatively recent innovation altogether. And it bothers me when something becomes a style (or a school rule) and all of a sudden, people thinks it’s the halacha. The halacha doesn’t change because of the school rules.

    #1399327

    zaltzvasser
    Participant

    About today’s shaitels “SURELY” being assur because those who were mattir didn’t mean our wigs because they are much prettier:
    In the olden days they wore the wigs לנוי.
    In our days they wear the wigs לנוי.
    Do you want to explain to me the difference between my great-great-great-great grandmother wanting to look pretty and my mother wanting to look pretty? The only real difference is that the former didn’t have today’s wigs available to her… otherwise, it could be she would have worn them.

    #1399483

    YW Moderator-25
    Moderator
    #1399562

    dancingmom
    Participant

    Please don’t start telling me how the Poskim from hundreds of years ago would have allowed today’s wigs. You are taking everything out of context, quoting all these sources but missing the main point of the mitzvah. (Bh many frum women are starting to realize the emes)

    Hollywood actresses aren’t wearing these sheitels to look modest! They are wearing them to look glamorous. Bh they can now look as beautiful as all the frum women wearing wigs because the trend has caught on!

    Just two months ago Vogue magazine featured a famous actress on their cover proudly wearing a wig from a frum sheitel company- and this was a short wig. She definitely looked very modest with her natural wig on!

    Here’s just one article from many about one sheitel company:
    ABOUT xxxx WIGS
    (article in a non Jewish publcation)
    The prestigious xxxx Wigs New York Collection is an iconic brand in the world of hair. It is red carpet certified and has been featured on countless runways, TV shows and magazines. It is also the number one choice amongst many celebrity stylists and discerning clients alike. xxxx Wigs are on the forefront of hair trends, bringing in the latest looks, styles, and color combinations. WEAR IT, OWN IT, FLAUNT IT!
    xxxx is a dynamic lady who started making wigs at her kitchen table. Today, she is one of the most sought after wigmakers in the industry. Although, her primary customer base has been Orthodox Jewish women who are required to wear a sheitel (wig) when they get married, news of xxxx’s exceptional talent reached the fashion industry and her wigs have been featured in Essence, Elle, Vogue, and even the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue. She has deftly navigated honoring her traditions while making wigs available to women of all cultures and faiths. Although the motivations may be different, during our conversation xxxx stated that at the end of the day all women want to look beautiful. So true!

    Surely this is how G-d intended frum women to cover their hair!

    #1399609

    dancingmom
    Participant

    This was sent to today from a highly respected talmud chachum in response to this discussion:

    I saw the text you posted on the psak of the Shiltei Giborim allowing sheitels. I have done extensive research on this topic and I would like to share a few fundamental points:
    Firstly, let us honestly ask ourselves a profound question:
    “DO THE SHEITELS OF TODAY RESEMBLE IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM THE WIGS THAT THE SHILTEI GIBORIM WAS REFERRING TO?
    Even if one would like to rely on the psak of the Shiltei Giborim (which was disputed upon by many poskim – see later)- what type of sheitels were prevalent in his times? Do they come close to the natural looking, eye-catching, enticing sheitels of today.
    Many Gedolim in our times were deeply pained about this and stated their opinions in writing and in various public speeches:
    HaRav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv zt”l declared, “The wigs of today look just like hair and are certainly assur. On this (type of wig) – not even one posek has given a heter. The wigs of today are actual ervah, they look just like hair; and there is no difference!
    The posek hador, Harav Shmuel Halevi Wosner zt”l, stated, “The wigs that were worn approximately sixty years ago—even in the more modernized country, Vienna—were clearly recognizable from a distance. It was clear that it wasn’t the woman’s own hair since those wigs did not have the natural characteristics of hair. Yet the wigs of today look just like natural hair.” He then added, “They incite the yetzer hara even more than natural hair, and there would be no posek in previous generations who would be able to find any type of leniency to permit such a sheitel.”
    Harav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt”l declared, “Why are people rationalizing that the women in the previous generation wore wigs? Those wigs looked like straw! Today, they come to me and I don’t know the difference between a wig and hair!”

    #1399610

    dancingmom
    Participant

    He continued:

    Harav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv zt”l was distraught about the new style of natural-looking sheitels. Before his passing, he declared, “The dispute about if the sheitel is permissible applied to the wigs of previous generations (which were short and stiff, and the hairs did not move from their place). But the natural-looking sheitels incite the yetzer hara just like hair… Who can permit wearing such a sheitel, which is ervah?”

    Harav Shalom Schwadron explained, “Women are unaware that the permissibility of wearing of a sheitel was a debated issue among the poskim. Indeed, there are over twenty-four gedolei haposkim who forbade it. And even for those who go according to the opinions of the poskim who permitted it, do they think that these rabbanim permitted a woman to wear a sheitel that doesn’t even look like a wig? For this, there is no heter in the world!”
    For this reason, gedolim have issued the following kol korei regarding natural-looking sheitels:
    “Since in our communities women have begun wearing sheitels that cause sin just like hair because they look like natural hair, we feel obligated to let people know the view of our holy Torah. This is assur. Even in the communities where they followed the heter of wearing a sheitel, it didn’t come into question to allow such types of wigs (which are worn today). Indeed, one misdeed leads to another…” (This was signed by rabbanim, among them rabbanim from Gur, Vizhnitz, Erloi, Biala, Lelov, and Spinka.)

    IMPORTANT: The above mentioned statements were issued a number of years ago when the wigs didn’t come close to the long, provocative, attracting, wigs of today which are causing immeasurable obstacles and severe aveiros on a daily basis, even among the most respected of our communities.

    #1399611

    dancingmom
    Participant

    He continues:

    The words of the Shiltei Giborim have been studied, evaluated, and disputed upon throughout the generations. It is not within the scope of this forum to debate about this. Yet, I would like to share some of the research I discovered.
    1. Opposition to the psak of the Shiltei Giborim
    Many people are not aware that at the time of the psak of the Shiltei Giborim, most rabbanim at that time and many of the later Poskim were against it. I will quote some of these sources.
    Mahari Mintz Katzenelbogen who lived during the times of the Shiltei Giborim stated:
    “Our parents and grandparents in all the communities in Ashkenaz have stated their opinion that one should not wear on the head, even a nylon fabric whose weave resembles hair.”

    The Maharatz Chiyus declared, “It was accepted throughout the generations that all women were careful not to wear a wig in public. Even in my youth, I never heard of a woman living in our country who wore a sheitel. It is a new breach of the boundaries of mesorah.”

    Below is a list of some of the many rabbanim who were vehemently against the psak of the Shiltei Giborim:
    The Mahari Mintz, the Be’er Sheva, the Chida, the Yaavitz, the Chasam Sofer, the Divrei Chaim, the Sdei Chemed, Rabbi Avraham Palagi, Rabbi Yitzchak Abulafya, Harav Ovadia Yosef, most Chasidic poskim from before the Holocaust, and many other gedolim and rabbanim).

    #1399612

    dancingmom
    Participant

    last part:

    . Opinions as to the intention of the Shiltei Giborim
    The words of the Shiltei Giborim cannot be taken at face value. There is actually a whole sefer called “Das Moshe v’Yisroel” which expounds upon this psak. (This sefer has many haskamos; including HaRav Moshe Arye Freund zt”l, Av Beis Din of the Eidah Hachareidus) The sefer delves into the Shiltei Giborim’s commentaries in both mesachtas Shabbos and Kesubos and concludes that he never intended to give a heter for a woman to wear a wig in public (an act which was never performed by any Torah observant woman up until his times). It is clear from their findings that the Shiltei Giborim was referring to the wearing of a wig in the חצר – the courtyard, where other men were usually not prevalent.
    HaGaon HaRav Shmuel HaLevi Wosner zt”l expounds upon the dispute about the intention of the Shiltei Giborim:
    “It is known that the Shiltei Giborim gave a heter. Yet, this was a minority against the majority that were machmir. And in places where they couldn’t enforce this, they relied on this leniency. Some are of the opinion that even those who were lenient did not intend to give an explicit heter. And even those poskim who were lenient only gave a heter with specific requirements. And not like those people who make leniencies for themselves and wear all types of sheitels without any basis (in halacha).
    CONCLUSION: OVER THE GENERATIONS THERE WERE MANY DIFFERENT VIEWS ON THIS PSAK WHICH OUR GEDOLIM WERE AWARE OF AND WHICH ARE EXPOUNDED UPON IN SEFER “DAS MOSHE V’YISROEL”. IT IS NOT WITHIN OUR SCOPE OF KNOWLEDGE AND INTELLIGENCE TO DEBATE ABOUT THE VARIOUS OPINIONS.
    IN ANY CASE, (AS STATED ABOVE) OUR GEDOLIM HAVE RULED THAT EVEN FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO RELY ON THIS PSAK, THE SHILTEI GIBORIM WOULD NEVER HAVE GIVEN A HETER TO THE SHEITELS OF TODAY.

    LET US FINALLY OPEN OUR EYES AND HEARTS TO THE TRUTH AND THE CRYSTAL CLEAR WORDS OF OUR GEDOLIM.

    #1399650

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DM: nobody here has defended wearing “provocative” or “enticing” shaitels. The same way you wouldn’t defend provocative or enticing tichels or snoods.

    So half of your argument is what we’d call “straw man”.

    The other half, that natural hair shaitels are always assur, has been shown to have more than “highly respected talmid chachum” disagree with.

    I think you need to understand what you quoted earlier – “It is a new breach of the boundaries of mesorah” – was true perhaps when it was uncommon. It’s clearly not a breach in any boundaries today when probably a majority of frum women wear natural hair shaitels.

    I think you need to calm down, take a deep breath, and realize that those who do wear natural shaitels are following the mainstream psak accepted in klal Yisroel, as decided by gedolei poskim every bit as big as those you quote, that they’re 100% muttar.

    #1399654

    Meno
    Participant

    Hair is provocative – period.

    That would explain all the looks I’ve been getting since I started wearing this toupee.

    #1399656

    Joseph
    Participant

    I think you need to understand what you quoted earlier – “It is a new breach of the boundaries of mesorah” – was true perhaps when it was uncommon. It’s clearly not a breach in any boundaries today when probably a majority of frum women wear natural hair shaitels.

    How does the Mesorah change just because most people changed from following their Mesorah?

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