December 25, 2010 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #837219Derech HaMelechMember
AC, I don’t think aliyos to neshamos work by virtue of the neshama hearing the Torah. I think when someone learns something l’iluy nishmas a person, the zechus of being the cause of someone’s learning is what the neshamah gets.
Unless a niftar has caused you to learn something I’m not sure he would get a zchus from it. In that respect actually I’d imagine that Hitler ym”sh might somehow get something for causing a Jew to learn Torah.December 25, 2010 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #837220
</What does the word nittel mean?>
Nittel comes from the word nitleh, the hung one, from toleh.
When was he killed? The gemora sanhedrin says 1st day pesach (though all drawings of ‘The Last Supper’ show large round matzos -a big kushya!) The goyim say that he was born on 25 Dec. Seforim write that actually he was a mamzer as we know, and therefore his birth was obviously kept secret so nobody knows the date of his birth. However they chose 8 days before their new year to say he was born on 25 Dec. so that his bris would have been on new year day so they celebrate both days when he would have had a simcha.December 25, 2010 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #837221
I once heard that one of the reasons men don’t learn on nittel is because then Yoshke’s neshomo comes down in form of an animal or something else, and if he hears divrei Torah he will get a zechus.
In any case, I fail to see how Hitler comes into the equation here.
You can say the same about any deceased who was a Rosho.
With re to KEN ZAYN’s post about Rav Segal ZATZAL, I heard the following story;
One Rav came to visit another rav on nittle and saw that he was learning. He asked him why would he be learning tonite.
The Rav answered, “I would like to see the gehenom I get for learning Torah on Nitel.”
To which the first Rav replied, “I DON’T want to see the gehenom I get for not following the minhag of Tzaddikim like the Chasam Sofer and others who said not to learn.”
At that moment the Rav who was learning closed his sefer right away.
A minhag breaks a din!December 25, 2010 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #837222
He wasn’t hanged, he was crucified. Wouldn’t that be ‘Skilah’?
Also, if he were a mamzer, how would he be accepted as a talmid? Isn’t a mamzer to be rejected in Kahal Hashem?December 25, 2010 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #837223
Aishes chayil you’re too knowledgeable to be an aishes chayil. Methinks you’re more of a gavra rabba.December 25, 2010 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #837229EphraimParticipant
Leaniyas daati the whole thing sounds like a shtus (if no yidden are learning then the world goes back to tohu vovohu) but it has it’s mekoros so there you go.
There are in fact many mekoros to go either way. There were many great Tzadikim who, in fact, didn’t learn on Nittel, some even on both the 25th of Dec. and the 6th of Jan. As far as your Tohu Vovohu problem is concerned, when it is nittel here in NY it is the next morning in Hong Kong or Australia. In fact if you figure it out that way, Shabbos in fact is on the globe for a full 48 hours.December 26, 2010 12:22 am at 12:22 am #837230blueprintsParticipant
Yes but it depends if you’re machmir lechol hadayos then nittlenacht lasts 2 weeksDecember 26, 2010 12:39 am at 12:39 am #837231Sister BearMember
Sorry for my wrong info.December 26, 2010 1:04 am at 1:04 am #837232mw13Participant
Today, it is generally accepted in the Chassidish world not to learn nittel night, while the Litvaks do learn. Both have their own Gedolim to rely on, and zeh v’zeh divrei Elokim chayim.December 26, 2010 1:33 am at 1:33 am #837233deiyezoogerMember
“leaniyas daati the whole thing sounds like a shtus (if no yidden are learning then the world goes back to tohu vovohu) but it has it’s mekoros so there you go”
there is a story about a priest who asked Rav Yonoson Eibshitz how can jews not learn nitel? dont you believe that the world cant exist without torah? his answer was that since minhag yisroel torah the fact that we do not learn is torah.December 26, 2010 1:49 am at 1:49 am #837234tzippiMember
Aishes Chayil, doesn’t the gemara talk about a mamzer who’s a talmid chacham?
And Hamodia had an article about chess this week for just this reason.December 26, 2010 3:51 am at 3:51 am #837235ShintavMember
First, there’s nothing wrong with teaching a Mamzer torah, they just have very restricted options on who they can marry.
Second, Skila means ‘stoning’. T’lia means ‘hanging’ and is often used to described Yeshu, probably because the central part of crucifiction was to hang the victim up on a cross.
Third, where are you getting this information from? These ideas are not even close to being present in Judaism…December 26, 2010 4:40 am at 4:40 am #837236
goodbye: I refuse to reply in kind to your rude and obnoxious tone. I am surprised that the mods let your post through, which only goes to debunk the complaints of over moderation.
My Roshei Yeshiva were from Slabodka, Brisk and the Mir and all said the minhag was to learn on “nittel”. Same goes for my grandfather from Kovno. I don’t have access to Chok uZman, but I know it was written by a Belzer chossid, I trust those who grew up in Lita to know minhagei Lita more.December 26, 2010 5:39 am at 5:39 am #837237
To all those readers and posters who take the seriousness of refraining from learning Torah on this night, (Dec. 24th. going on the 25th.) lightly, I have story. A Yiddishe Youngerman once decided to convert to Christianity (r”l). So he went over to the priest’s house. He rings the bell. The wife of the priest (We are talking about a Catholic Priest who was married) tells him that her husband is not home, and she invited the young man to wait for him in the living room. While there, he takes out a pocket size Gemara and starts learning. His friend, who came along asked him. “Are You crazy?” You’ve come here to “Shmad” and you’re learning Gemara! The guy answered one word “Bitul Teyre”!December 26, 2010 7:06 am at 7:06 am #837238
I was just responding to Ken Zayn’s post , a few above mine…..December 26, 2010 7:08 am at 7:08 am #837239
Believe me I am an ‘Aishes’ whatever you want to think.
Trust me, there is no KNOWLEGEABLE man on this earth who would want to make anyone believe he is a woman!!!!December 26, 2010 11:29 am at 11:29 am #837240
Charliehall: Regarding staying indoors, B”H Jews aren’t systematically murdered on Christian holidays any more. I don’t think any shul anywhere in the world has cancelled Shabat services this year based on the custom you mention.
We never stop any minhag or derech just because the times change. We still for example keep 2 days yomtov in chutz la’aretz when there’s no s’feika d’yoma anymore
AC: He wasn’t hanged, he was crucified. Wouldn’t that be ‘Skilah’?
Firstly he was ‘hung’ on the cross as the poster above also says. Secondly, after this he was actually hung from a tree. When some yiden tried to take his body down that night so not to leave a Jew hanging overnight (lo solin nivlaso ad boker?), they were seen and suspected of hanging him. This is why the goyim say we killed him when it was in fact the RomansDecember 26, 2010 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #837241apushatayidParticipant
1: Yeshu mentioned in the gemara couldn’t possibly be oso ish the xtians are celebrating. Yeshu of the gemara was a talmid of yehoshua ben prachya (according to the gemara) who predated hillel and shammai by several doros (see pirkei avos), while oso ish the xtians celebrate was supposedly a contenporary of Raban Gamliel and a talmid of hillel according to their scriptures.
2: The xtians themselves have surely made up a birth date for oso ish, just as surely as they made up his yichus (different books of xtial gospel list very different yichus back to david hamelech – with one listing 24 generations and another more than 40 – with most of the names different in each – and one listing the yichus through the mother, since they believe he had no physical father). The birthday chosen is one that coincides with numerous old pagan beliefs.
3: To learn or not learn on the night of nittel is surely a minhag that some have while others do not. Instead of haggling over yes or no, it makes way more sense for us to focus on how to reach out to the vast majority of jews who will not learn a word of torah, unfortunately, on any night of the year, and worse, might have been celebrating his birthday on that night.December 26, 2010 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #837242
‘Yeshu mentioned in the gemara couldn’t possibly be oso ish the xtians are celebrating. Yeshu of the gemara was a talmid of yehoshua ben prachya (according to the gemara)’
What happened after Yeshu (Ben Prachia’s talmid) apparantly became upset when his Rav derpived him of some atention? It seems that he became hot-headed and turned the other cheek as a result of that.
How do you connect that incident with ‘Osoh Ish’? It would seem to be the same eprson.
Please clarrify….December 26, 2010 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #837243
Thanks for your post.
However isnt it a fact that Bais Din paskened that he be killed because of his heresy, even if the actual crim was commited by the Romans?
Also, I heard the word Nittel comes from Natala, which means ‘night’ in I think latin or some old language…anyone hear that?December 26, 2010 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #837244
hello99: chok uz’mahn was ABSOLUTELY NOT written by a belzer chosid, and the mekoros he brings there (especially in his letter in the hosofos in the back of the sefer) are not of people who learned in ponovizh, but of those who learned in kelm, telz, kletzk etc., with their names, so with all due respect to your rebbeim, they obviously don’t know everything about lithuanian history. besides, as others have already testified here, the minhog was widespread across the Jewish world, including by many sfardim. even if you are very thin-skinned, you are still factually wrong in your claim that “as I said it was never the minhag except by Chassidim, don’t care which seforim mention the concept”… what you care about or not is irrelevant…December 26, 2010 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #837245
Apushatayid aishes etc.:
tos’fos horosh writes that there were two different people referred to as yeishu hanotzri (which only means that his name was yehoshua and he came from nazareth). the first was a talmid of R’ Yehoshua ben P’rachya. he got insulted and therefore served an idol, as detailed in the gemora. the second was many generations later, and he practiced black magic and sorcery, and tried to missionize among the lower class of Jews. he is discussed in chesronos hashas on sanhedrin.December 26, 2010 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #837246
which one is the infamous Yoshke , worshipped by the goyim and commemarated on the 25th of December?December 26, 2010 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #837247
aishes: the second one. the famous ‘nazarene’, (who was obviously from nazareth, not bethlehem), lived at the very end of the second beis hamikdosh (until around 2010 years ago). R’ Yehoshua ben P’rachya lived centuries earlier, towards the beginning of the second beis hamikdosh.December 26, 2010 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #837248
Goodbye & Aishes Chail; The Gemara (In Mes. Sanhedrin) states plainly that there were Two individuals called “Yeshu”, who apparently had some popular following during the times of Roman oppression of the Jewish population in Israel. But they were about 150 Years apart. The Second one is the one that was a member of the Essenes, and whom today’s Christians celebrate. He was ostensibly killed by the Romans on the order of Pontius Pilate, the Governor of Palesitne (Eretz Israel) at the time.December 26, 2010 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #837249RuffRuffMember
What Tosafos says was used by the debates many times, to show that the Gemara doesn’t make fun of, or even discuss, Oso Ha’ish. Some say that Tosafos didn’t really mean it, either. The Seder Hakabala of the Ra’avad mentions the two views and says that he thinks it was one. The Ramban in his debate said that we beleive he was earlier and they say he was later (in order to claim the Churban a retribution for not accepting him).
The Minhag was known in the Litta, but was dropped in the Yeshivos. By now, it is not their Minhag anymore.
The word, Nittel, comes from Nettle (or something like that), which means birth. That was the name the gentiles called it. Perhaps we changed it a bit to Nittel to mean, taken, as opposed to, birth.December 26, 2010 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #837250Shticky GuyParticipant
Goodbye, notzri doesnt just mean from nazareth as you posted. Acc to one p’shat it comes from the word ‘notzar’, or created. This is to disprove the catholics who say he is a son of g-d and not from human birth, so the word notzar was added to his name to say he WAS created ie from human birth. Its a fascinating and very large topic. Its also amazing that the majority of todays world population hold of either mamzer yeshu, or the person that the rambam calls ‘hameshuga’ ie mohammed. This is to put the concept of moshiach into the world cos both these 2 are believed by their followers to be a messiah!December 26, 2010 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #837251
I hearD , Nittel means ‘night’.
Whatever the case, does everyone hold that he was the later one?
What was the signifigance of him getting insulted by his rav, if he wasnt the same one?December 26, 2010 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #837252
As far as I’m concerned, I’m extremely happy that I learn on Christmas eve. Thanks to that fact I was able to teach an adult his first Mishnah last year, and hear a very interesting chaburah on a ???? ???? this year.December 26, 2010 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #837253
shticky: what you are bringing is a drush. the pashtus remains that notzri means from nazareth. that’s also why we have more than one individual being referred to that way, although only one has the issue you are referring to. in addition, even the plain meaning of notzri – ‘nazarene’ – refutes their fantasy that he was from bethlehem, a detail they would like to use to have him coming from ‘the davidic line’ which supposedly was in the bethlehem area. how that fits with their claim that he had no father etc. is another discussion.December 26, 2010 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #837254
Aishes: we are not limited in how many resho’im to insult 🙂 the first yeishu hanotzri commented to his Rebbe and friends about the beauty of a woman they encountered, and when his rebbe reprimanded him he became insulted and went off to find some avoda zora to serve. the second yeishu had enough of his own problems as well…December 26, 2010 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #837255
Re – Yoshke getting insulted,
I thought he had asked him a question about something in the Talmud and Ben Prachia told him to wait a minute, so J got ticked off that he was being dodged and therefore reacted.
Didnt know it was about a comment with regard to a women’s beauty…December 27, 2010 1:14 am at 1:14 am #837256apushatayidParticipant
Does it really matter? Todays religion is is a creation of Saul of Tarsus (paul) who managed to convince enough pagans to follow his new religion based on this (some historians say) mythical person.
Back to learning. The majority of jews did not learn friday night, motsai shabbos, tonight, or any night of their life. What is everyone doing to get at least one of those people to learn, at least once in their life?December 27, 2010 2:09 am at 2:09 am #837257RuffRuffMember
If there were two, then the second one is not mentioned at all in the Gembra. The way it happened was that Rebbe Yehoshua ben Prachya, his Rebbe, said that a certain hostess was very nice, as in nice to them. This disciple, who’s train of thought made him think that his Rebbe was refering to her physical beauty, commented that, oh yes, her eyes are very round. Rebbe Yehoshua ben Prachya yelled at him, is this what you are busy with? Then he sent him away. The disciple came back a few times, and was sent away. Then, he came back while his Rebbe was reciting Krias Shma and couldn’t talk. Rebbe Yehoshua wanted to accept him at that point, but being that he couldn’t talk he motioned to him to wait. The student understood the motion as pushing him away, permanently. He left and began worshipping idols and got involved in sorcery and took a lot of Jews away from their faith.December 27, 2010 2:26 am at 2:26 am #837258
Goodbye & Aishes Chail; The story about “J” is –to the best of my recollection– as follows. R.Yhoshua Ben P’rachia and some of his students (“J” among them) were staying at an inn. The innkeeper went out of her way to serve them. (Probably not charging them.) R. Yhoshua Ben P. commented “How Beautiful is this woman”, when “J” retorted. “:But Her eyes are Oval shaped” (Half closed)????” ??????..Upon which he was reprimanded. “I wasn’t commenting on her physical beauty. I said she’s spiritually beautiful”. Subsequently he tried to apologize but his Rabbi rejected the apology. He then decided to try once again, when R. Yoshua was in middle of Kryias Sh’ma. R. Yoshua was at this point ready to forgive his student for the inappropriate comment. He motioned for him to wait till he’s done with Sh’ma. But “J” mistook it as another sign of rejection. Upon which he (“J”) rebelled against the Jewish Religion. And the rest is history.December 27, 2010 4:07 am at 4:07 am #837259NonsenseMember
The real question is if we’re allowed to post here on nittel.December 27, 2010 5:17 am at 5:17 am #837260Derech HaMelechMember
According to the Rambam, the gemarah in Sanhedrin is about Yoshka.
By context and content that gemarah seems to be suggesting that it was the Sanhedrin who killed him. It also says that he got skilah and only had 5 students as opposed to 12 that the goyim say.
When you consider that the goyishe books were only first written half a century after they believe Yoshke died – and that the person describing his life NEVER EVEN MET HIM, (never mind the fact that each of their books have contradicting stories for just about every major occurrence in their descriptions of his life) its no wonder why there is such a divergence between what the gemarah says and what, lehavdil, the goyim say.December 27, 2010 6:06 am at 6:06 am #837261
Once again: derech hamelech is right! and according to the Rosh I quoted earlier metro driver is unfortunately not! The story metro is discussing was about an earlier Yeishu, who was ALSO from Nazareth, but lived centuries before J—s, in the time of R’ Yehoushua ben p’rachya. the story in Sanhedrin (in chesronos hashas) is about the (in)famous J—s, who died around 2010 years ago at the very END of bayis shaini. As well known (and recorded in the Gemora), in the last decades of bayis sheini, beis din no longer implemented the death penalty. The Roman empire did, though… It would be an interesting question if when the Romans crucified Yoshke it was within those last decades or immediately before…December 27, 2010 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #837263
Of course, that gemara was written hundreds of years after the books by those who never met him. The gemara was also written in a non-christian country. The amoraim had no interest in some apikores from a time when false messiahs were a dime a dozen. It could have been yeshu, it could have been one of the many people whose (mostly fictional) biographies went into the Christian canon. OTOH it could have been just another apikorus.
goodbye: isn’t it “chisurei” hashas, not chisronos?December 27, 2010 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #837264
goodbye: Nitei Gavriel quotes Rav Ovadia Yosef in Yabia Omer as writing that the Sfardim “never saw nor heard”of the minhag not to learn Nittel. He also quotes the Chazon ISh and others that the minhag in Litta was to learn Nittel.December 27, 2010 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #837265
Rav Saadia Gaon writes that there was only one J and that he lived in the time of Rav Yehoshua ben Prachya, the C forged the history books to make him appear to have lived much later to be able to tie the Churban to our rejection of him.December 28, 2010 2:10 am at 2:10 am #837266
What does it mean that there was one J? Does it mean that only one person in history ever had that name until the religion started?December 28, 2010 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #837268
hello99: I am well aware of R’ Ovadya’s statement. Still, as the Chok Uz’man brings, there are 4-5 gedolei sfard including the famous chupas chasanim and R’ chayim falaji who do bring this hanhogoh l’ma’aseh. as aishes chayil brought earlier, she is personally familiar with at least one sfardi who has this hanhogoh from sfardi circles. you may be unaware that r’ ovadya’s way has been to be m’vatel completely any sfardi hanhogo he is unfamiliar with or is not part of his local mesora. the particular statement of his that you are quoting was written in response to sfardi women who WERE keeping nittel… and he wants to be mevatel the long-standing minhog by saying it wasn’t heard of. the facts remain otherwise. i personally wrote a letter to R’ ovadya and his son R’ Yitzchok asking how he could say this if there are 4-5 famous sfardi rabonim who write to keep nittel. got no response from either of them…
as far as nittel in lita, as i wrote, check out chok uz’man who seems to have seen everything in nitei gavriel, and did his own research confounding this statement of his.December 28, 2010 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #837269
Sefardim do have the minhag of not learning. I was friends with a sefardic girl who’ father didnt learn.
If you will check one of my previous posts, I quoted the reasonDecember 28, 2010 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #837270
AC:one person does not a minhag makeDecember 28, 2010 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #837271Trying my bestMember
hello: You’ve been cited Seforim HaKedoshim.December 28, 2010 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #837272
Ruff-Ruff; I posted downstream of your post (without reading the content of your latest posting. You summed it up better than I did. However the translation “T’rutos” ?????? as being round is inaccurate. I looked up the definition in Sefer “Aruch” ???? and the translation is “Oval” (Halfay closed) As opposed to wide open/Round.November 19, 2011 6:53 am at 6:53 am #837273roseofsharonMember
i would like to respectfully give an opinion. There is no rational reason why jewish people have been accused of killing oso ish. The accusation cannot even be explained by illiteracy and ignorance albeit any goyim who actually read any writings about it could not come to that conclusion.
oso ish was involved in the heresy dispute but pilate and the romans killed him. the idea ” i wash my hands and was only following orders” did not fly in the 1940’s or in ancient times, ot at least it should not
the extent to which this piece of propaganda has been believed and the consequences – the word evil might apply,rationality plays no part
The idea of dec 25th being a pagan holiday is totally correct. a roman emperor decided to magically make that pagan holiday the birthday of oso ish
at least they get the timing of easter correctly near passover but of course they mix it all up with a bunny rabbit hopping aroundNovember 20, 2011 12:20 am at 12:20 am #837274real-briskerMember
Where is it not shabbos 16hrs before shabbos ended in EST?November 20, 2011 4:30 am at 4:30 am #837275Feif UnParticipant
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