Non-yiddishe music on ipods

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  • #592946

    I’m a Ben Torah that happens to have an iPod (ofcourse every single gigabyte is Torah) but lemaaseh I have a friend that nebach has access to non-yiddeshe music. The nesayon of not getting music from him is mamosh getting to hard. So my kasha is if a) I should get rid of my iPod (and memaleh not be able to listen to my shiurim) or b) to bedavka not be his friend at all.

    #707997
    myfriend
    Member

    If he is leading you astray, you should break off communications with him ASAP.

    #707998
    allsgr8
    Participant

    Mistama if you continue sticking to your yeshivish lingo, even if you listen to an ipod lav davka your chaver will be able to have a hashpa’ah on you!

    #708000
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Learn Toiyra!

    #708001
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I’m more worried about your temptation to steal (i.e. download music from your friend’s Ipod) than your temptation to listen to non-Jewish music.

    The Wolf

    #708003
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    and to “The Wolf”, i hope you are a posek and can back up that wild pesak that downloading music is stealing. even for someone who calls himself “The Wolf” thats a pretty bold statement to be throwing around.

    It is stealing.

    And even if it does not mean the technical halachic definition of stealing, it’s still wrong and doesn’t pass the yashrus test.

    The Wolf

    #708005
    myfriend
    Member

    Wolf:

    It possibly may not pass the yashrus test and is wrong, but if it is not stealing don’t call it stealing.

    #708006

    You know what passuk the OP reminded me of?

    Hakol Kol Yaakov… v’hayadayim yedei Esav.

    I wonder why…

    #708007
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    and what yasrus test are u talking about.

    Do you mean to tell me that you see absolutely no ethical problem with copying music and not paying for it?

    The Wolf

    #708009
    myfriend
    Member

    Wolf – you didn’t respond to my earlier comment.

    A few additional points:

    Nothing the OP said indicates any potential copying (and it should be noted he said he never yet has copied) is not of “free source” music.

    Additionally, under U.S. copyright law, copying copyrighted material for personal non-commercial usage falls under the “fair use” doctrine and is legal. Even if it is one friend copying for another, without any mass distribution involved.

    #708010
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Anyone else think yushka’s name is a little strange for YWN?

    #708011
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Anyone else think yushka’s name is a little strange for YWN?

    Real name = Josh 🙂

    #708012
    IDKyet
    Member

    if you use your ipod only for shiurim, keep it for shiurim only. if you have a strict policy with yourself that you are not going to put any music on the ipod, you wont come to downloading your friend’s garbage. also, with regard to not being friends with this person anymore, he is obviously struggling with something and needs all the positive support he can get. this is the time to be there for him and help him. good luck

    #708013
    WIY
    Member

    Yushka2

    First of all I’m only talking Jewish music. It is assur to listen to non Jewish music. Classical music is different and I believe there are many who are matir. Bottom line as long as there’s no singing and no lyrics.

    About copying: It is assur to copy or download music that one has not purchased. Yes one may listen to their friends ipod or cd sincle that falls under normal use, however I don’t know what the Halacha would be if your friend had illegally downloaded or copied the music

    #708014
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    u totally missed the point. does this happen to you a lot? im starting to think that the most embarrassing story you posted is true…

    Perhaps it is. Perhaps I really am very stupid or mentally retarded. Perhaps I’m the stupidest person on the face of the earth.

    The Wolf

    #708015
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Nothing the OP said indicates any potential copying (and it should be noted he said he never yet has copied) is not of “free source” music.

    Fair enough. I suppose it’s possible the OP is considering copying stuff in the public domain. I doubt it to be the case, but I’ll grant that it’s possible.

    The Wolf

    #708016
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    It possibly may not pass the yashrus test and is wrong, but if it is not stealing don’t call it stealing.

    Fair enough. I’ll amend my comment:

    I’m more worried about your temptation to do things that are unethical (i.e. download copyrighted music from your friend’s Ipod) than your temptation to listen to non-Jewish music.

    #708017
    apushatayid
    Participant

    I have the instrumental versions of popular “yiddishe music” and Chicago 17 on my smartphone. Peter Cetera, Jason Scheff and crew produced music that sounds more yiddishe than what currently passes for yiddishe music.

    #708018
    cb1
    Member

    copying music for your own use without actually purchasing the album is stealing according to halacha however you ARE allowed to listen to music off of your friends ipod

    #708019
    Helpful
    Member

    It isn’t stealing, even if their may be another issur.

    #708020
    cb1
    Member

    it is stealing

    #708021
    Helpful
    Member

    Is not.

    #708022
    yushka2
    Member

    I’m not gonna pretend that I am a big enough Posek to pasken this Shaylah which has already be debated by people far greater than me. All I originally said was that it’s not so simple that it’s assur that like the wolf assumed.

    To you well informed yid, I know u from past forums and even watched you have a great debate of my last screen name, if yushka was a rasha or not, you seem to stand confidently behind ur screen name and I must say sometimes u make it sound like ur not so well informed. The premis for the shayla of downloading music is the first guy to copy the CD and upload it online is in violation of the copyright. But NOW that it has already been uploaded and is floating around the Web, who’s is to say I cant download it now?

    This is without getting involoved with the shayla if there is even such a thing as someone copyrighting an idea or in this case a niggun.

    Unless u change ur name to ” well informed Posek” I would be careful what i say.

    P.s. Not a discussion here but goyish music vs today ” Jewish music” perhaps the goyish stuff is better, at least u know it’s goyish but when u have Jewish singers singing certain songs by wedding u can see the rabbis singing along to a lady gaga song! They don’t even chop what’s happening to them!

    And the YouTube chillul hashem to follow

    #708023
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Is so. And my daddy is bigger than your daddy, so there.

    #708024
    bezalel
    Participant

    <i>Additionally, under U.S. copyright law, copying copyrighted material for personal non-commercial usage falls under the “fair use” doctrine and is legal. Even if it is one friend copying for another, without any mass distribution involved.</i>

    Did you even read the law?

    #708025
    WIY
    Member

    Helpful

    Downloading music off the internet that one didt pay for is stealing. Copying a cd your friend baught and keeping that copy for yourself, or putting it onto your ipod is stealing.

    Its really not a chiddush. Should be pashut to all.

    #708026
    myfriend
    Member

    WIY:

    It is not stealing under halacha. (There may be other halachic concerns, however.)

    #708027

    Be’emes, I think the real issue is whether you’re worried about the gavra or the cheftza.

    The gavra is not an issue, l’fi pashtus, because an etzemdike yid who’s mamish considering being soiser his relationship with his friend because of content on an Ipod cannot possibly be tainted by as kleine a zach as an Ipod.

    The cheftza, on the other hand (your Ipod), is mistama an issue. The repercussions, rachmana litzlan, of “non-yiddishe music” running within its veins (k’v’yachol) is not something to be sneered at. A heilige authority would have to be consulted before being matir such a geferleche matzav.

    Because of the safek, I would be machmir.

    #708028
    WIY
    Member

    myfriend

    Copyright Issues from Halachically Speaking

    During the summer months it is very common to listen to more music than

    usual while walking, driving, or doing any other activities. Therefore, it is proper

    to discuss what one is and what is not permitted to copy as far as music CDs

    and tapes are concerned. One should not say that copying is permitted. That

    for stealing from music producers and artists. Many people are accustomed to

    Every CD that is copied steals at least five dollars from the producers. If all the

    money lost on the CDs that are copied would be added up the producers etc. are

    losing a lot of parnasa, despite their investing a lot of time and money to create

    something that the public is interested in. One wonders why some people who

    are very stringent to keep every custom even when it may have little backing in

    A CD or tape which is no longer sold in stores and is not possible to buy may

    be copied from a friend.96 However, one must make sure that the item is really

    not available for purchase. Many old tapes are still being sold online (by the

    original producer or someone who bought the rights to them). One who owns

    a CD or tape and is scared it may get lost is permitted to copy it. One who had a

    CD or tape which broke may make a copy of it from a friend. One who owns a CD

    or tape may make a copy of it for personal use. For example, he may make a copy

    for his car, since it can be assumed that the one would not buy another copy of

    the CD or tape for his car, so no loss is being caused by the copying.97 A CD or

    live at home. However, once a child gets married a copy may not be made for

    that child. It is permitted to copy a song off the radio since the quality is not

    as good as it would be if one were to buy the CD or tape. Music that is offered

    on the internet may not be copied since it is only put there for one to listen to.98

    Some producers maintain that the forty-five second clips that are offered on the

    internet may be copied. Copying a CD or tape is forbidden even if one would

    never buy the CD or tape.99

    94.

    Horav Yisroel Belsky Shlita. Refer to Igros Moshe O.C. 4:40:19, Yabea Omer C.M. 7:9, Mishnas Zechuyos

    (number 21).

    95. Parshas Yisro 20:13.

    96. Refer to Igros Moshe O.C. 4:40:19.

    97. Refer to Rivevos Ephraim 4:248, 3:596.

    9:footnotes 26-27.

    99. Horav Yisroel Belsky Shlita. One is not allowed to copy even one song from many CDs or tapes to make a mix

    (Horav Yisroel Belsky Shlita). If one who copied a CD or tape despite not being allowed to do so may listen to it in

    #708029
    yushka2
    Member

    WIY

    ” download music off the Internet that one didn’t pay for is stealing”

    What are u baseing ur statement on? I hope it’s not on the fact that he didn’t pay for it. Let me ask u this. A goy goes to the store and buy a cd, he makes 100 copies of it and throws them all over the street, are u WIY going to tell me that it is stealing for Someone to pick up one of those CDs?!

    #708031
    WIY
    Member

    Yanky55

    Listening to non-Jewish music is not Halachicly prohibited, at least not the tune. That is simply unhealthy for your soul, as the Mishna Brura quotes in the name of the Shelah. However, the words of the song may qualify as “divrei cheishek”, having sexual connotations, and therefore are prohibited as per Shulchan Aruch OH 307:16.

    Hey I didnt write the Shulchon Aruch im just quoting the Halacha. If you have an issue keeping Halacha thats between you and Hashem DONT take it out on me.

    #708032
    myfriend
    Member

    WIY:

    Check the sources you cited from Halachically Speaking.

    The issue is Hasagas Ge’vul (and perhaps Ze nehene ve’ze chaser), but NOT geneiva. Again, check the sources in the footnotes of what you yourself cited.

    #708033
    charliehall
    Participant

    WellInformedYid,

    Many rabbis permit vocal music. Rov Soloveitchik z’tz’l permitted opera. YU has had an annual opera fundraiser for decades. This year it isn’t an opera but Mendelssohn’s oratorio, “Elijah”.

    #708034
    WIY
    Member

    myfriend

    If you read what I copy/pasted he keeps saying how its stealing. Many people are accustomed to

    Every CD that is copied steals at least five dollars from the producers. If all the

    money lost on the CDs that are copied would be added up the producers etc. are

    losing a lot of parnasa, despite their investing a lot of time and money to create

    something that the public is interested in. One wonders why some people who

    are very stringent to keep every custom even when it may have little backing in

    Read through it again.

    #708035
    WIY
    Member

    charliehall

    “Many rabbis permit vocal music.”

    I think that is a misstatement. Some Rabbis permit vocal music when the lyrics are clean and it isnt kol isha.

    #708036
    myfriend
    Member

    WIY:

    Instead of reading the summary by whoever wrote that, crack open the sources like the Igros Moshe cited. It is not geneiva.

    #708037

    WIY-

    Did you see my other posts in two other threads about the shidduch that I have for you? Im serious here. Id at least like to get the girls resume over to you somehow. Im willing to lose my identity for this….

    I just want to ask you before bothering the mods if you can date a girl who is 5’7″

    Please let me know.

    #708039
    crdle
    Member

    what does OP mean? and how do u bold words?

    #708040
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    what does OP mean? and how do u bold words?

    OP = Original Poster

    To bold text, use the “strong” tag.

    The Wolf

    #708041

    for bold:

    <strong>your bold text here</strong>

    #708042
    WIY
    Member

    whatrutalkingabt

    Yes 5’7″ is fine. Ok I’m going to seriously go out on a limb here and say that the mods can give you my email address.

    #708043
    Yanky55
    Member

    WIY- This is your original post:

    “First of all I’m only talking Jewish music. It is assur to listen to non Jewish music. Classical music is different and I believe there are many who are matir. Bottom line as long as there’s no singing and no lyrics”.

    Then you post:

    “Listening to non-Jewish music is not Halachicly prohibited”

    Make up your mind. Which is it? Assur or not halachicly prohibited?

    I’m not taking out anything on you. I’m simply pointing out that you are not as well informed as you would like everyone to believe.

    #708045
    WIY
    Member

    Yanky55

    I have to be clearer. This is talking strictly Halacha not mussar and hashkafa. There’s nothing technically wrong with music, plain music like classical music and operatic music.

    The issue is lyrical music and especially when it is kol isha.

    #708046

    WIY- let me know if you didnt get the email I sent you

    #708047
    WIY
    Member

    Yanky55

    And when I say lyrical that means love songs…a song about a truck or a house or a sandwich not containing vulgarity would be mutar according to Halacha. But there are various Hashkafa reasons not to listen to music created and sung by non Jews.

    #708049
    apushatayid
    Participant

    I believe halacha will agree that dina dimalchusa dina when it comes to copywright law.

    This may be relevant to anyone who wants to make a copy of anything digital that is copywrighted.

    http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-digital.html#backup

    #708050

    geshmakehacker, b”h i don’t have such nisyonos. I don’t have an ipod and goyish music doesnt interest me. Someone suggested cutting ties with him. I wouldn’t say break away totally, but why don’t you “cool it off” a little. I had to do this once with a friend when i realized it wasn’t a healthy friendship. Be cordial and nice but start cutting off a little.

    (sorry if im repeating i didn’t read all the posts)

    #708051
    apushatayid
    Participant

    http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-definitions.html#infringement

    What is copyright infringement?

    As a general matter, copyright infringement occurs when a copyrighted work is reproduced, distributed, performed, publicly displayed, or made into a derivative work without the permission of the copyright owner.

    #708052
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Whenever I’m tempted to copy music (or, with me, it’s more likely to be software), I tell myself the following:

    “Is my self respect worth more than the $20 I’m saving?”

    The Wolf

    #708053
    Helpful
    Member

    Photoshop isn’t $20.

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