NYC Board of Health Votes to Regulate Bris Milah

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  • #1096254

    Sam2
    Participant

    Mods, you really let those posts through? I know he’s controversial, but that’s downright disrespectful to a huge Talmid Chacham.

    #1096255

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Chacham is as chacham does.

    #1096256

    WIY
    Member

    Sam2

    Hes a yoideah Torah not a Talmud Chacham.

    #1096257

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: He has a right to his opinions, even if he’s in the minority. I’ve sent him very strongly-worded letters in the past where I feel he said something that wasn’t P’shat, but I still have the same respect for him that I do any other Talmid Chacham. He is a Bar Hachi of having his opinions.

    #1096258

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam2,

    I’m just saying that if you want to convince anyone of anything you have to begin by agreeing on the same premises.

    If that’s true, then there’s no point in discussing it. They don’t agree to the premise that there’s a RS”O who want us to do a bris to begin with.

    Rather, we argue from the point of view that they are infringing upon our beliefs, and those who practice MBP indeed believe that it’s an age old practice.

    He has a right to his opinions, even if he’s in the minority.

    So do all of the big talmidei chachamim who feel that he is a rasha. The negativity you are seeing here is not merely from cynical, anonymous bloggers. There’s no reason for you, who are broad minded, not to accept the legitimate opinion that he is not a talmid chochom as a valid opinion.

    #1096259

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Opinion is one thing. Attacking others publicly and inviting government intervention for his ‘opinion’ is beyond the pale.

    #1096260

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Sam2- As this is a hot topic now- especially because a Rabbi in Monsey was quoted in the Journal news (see news section) , so I did some research. The gemoro and the Rambam (quoted in this thread) talk about “metzitzah’ but do not add the word “be-peh’The Hebrew word “metzitza” seesm to indicate by mouth, although this is not conclusive. From a quick web search I found a site that deals with this and there, it claims that the first time “metzitza be’peh’ is mentioned’ is by the Remo and subsequently by the Kabbalists. That makes it fifteenth/sixteenth century onwards.

    The most intruiguing aspect on that site is the claim that the Syrian, Yemenite and other Sefardi jes do NOT practice “metzitzah be-peh”. That would make it a European minhag, almost exclusively (yes- I know the Ari was a sefardi). If any psoters know anything asbout this, please inform us!

    #1096261

    DerechHamelech:

    “enlightendjew:

    I’d like to see those people consent to surgery on their person or a loved one where none of the docs or nurses are wearing masks, gloves, gowns, etc.

    You can meet these people yourself. Just walk into any shul that’s having a bris that morning. There you will see a man performing a minor surgery on an infant without masks, gloves, gowns, etc. In fact, the surgeon often has elongated thumb nails to assist in the surgery.”

    Great way of sidestepping my point…

    #1096262

    iced
    Member

    rob: The Sefardim and Teimanim do MBP. And the Ari was Ashkenazi (as was his father.) His mother was Sefardi.

    #1096263

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sam:

    He’s got a right to an opinion. He doesn’t have the right to use the secular authority to enforce his opinion on the rest of klal yisroel.

    ????????? ?? ??? ????

    If he is so sure he is correct, let him go to the moetzes and build a consensus on this. No, he goes to the government. And that is what takes him outside of the machane yisroel.

    #1096264

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    RabbiOfBerlin, Motzetz means sucking. Using a tube will still be called sucking but Sam’s other suggestion, squeezing, doesn’t fit.

    #1096265

    computer777
    Member

    Great way of sidestepping my point…

    And you conviently ignored the rest of his post.

    #1096266

    bubka
    Participant

    Even aside from the rabbonim who said Tendler is a rasha, simple logic says that even if he had a right to his own shitta — no one is forcing him to perform MBP on his children — yet he clearly and absolutely has no right to force others — who b’shitta hold MBP is absolutely halachicly mandatory — to follow his “shitta” not to perform MBP.

    And even far worse is his mesira of getting the government involved in his attempts to stop Yidden from following their halachic shitta that it is mandatory.

    #1096267

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I know of a very big Mohel, His reaction to to Mezea B’Peh is how the question is worded to him

    If someone say, you arent going to do that are you? And he answers of course not

    And if someone asks him, you’d better be doing Mezeia b’peh . He will answer of course I do it

    #1096268

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: I’m not aware of all the details. Can you actually show where a major Gadol has called him a Rasha and not just a Da’as Yachid?

    You also make a very good point. I’ll retract my previous arguments about what we can prove and stuff. Not that I think they were necessarily incorrect (for all we know MBP actually did start in the time of the late RIshonim), but because they’re irrelevant.

    #1096269

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Haleivi- In today’s Hebrew, indeed, ‘motzetz’ means sucking and usually it means by mouth. However, did it mean the same in the gemoro’s time?

    Iced- that the teimanim and sefardim to ‘metzitzah be’peh’ TODAY does not prove that they did it always.

    As far as the ARi goes- you surprised me with your mention that his father was an Ashkenazi. In egypt?? and what do you mean that he ‘was an ashkenazi”. I’d be very surprised to hear that he followed the Rosh and the Tur, rather than the Rif and the Rambam. Or that he followed the remo, rather than the Bais josef.

    #1096270

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    iced-I checked wikipedia and two other websites and ,indeed, the Ari’s father was an ashkenazi (luria was the family name- one website even asserts that his ancestors came from brisk- russia)although his mother was sefardit.

    He grew up in egypt when his father died as he was very young- and hence, the common assumption (at least by me) that he was a sefardi. Still, I’d like to know what minhagim he followed, the Rosh (ashkenazi) or the Rambam (sefardi)

    #1096272

    oomis
    Participant

    And if you care, it isn’t very sanitary when a baby nurses from its mother either. Nor when they kiss their baby”

    Not true. Unless the mother is ill, the baby already is used to her germs from being in utero. The danger is greater from everyone ELSE’S germs.

    #1096273

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Oomis,

    The following is from a paper published on the NIH site.

    “In conclusion, our findings indicate that HSV-1 and HSV-2 are shed into breast milk in a significant proportion of puerperals and breast-feeding may be an important route for the transmission of these viruses to infants.”

    Yet the mayor, through his aggressive “Latch on NY” program is attempting to force all women to nurse. Yet it seems that the risks of exposure to HSV are more significant via nursing than Via MbP which he is trying to outlaw.

    What hypocrisy. Or is it shame of Jewish customs?

    #1096274

    “Great way of sidestepping my point…

    And you conviently ignored the rest of his post.”

    I responded to this. Why was my post ignored??? Mods?

    #1096275

    iced
    Member

    Great point, ndg. The anti-semites (including the self-hating Jews with or without a yarmulka) have no logical explanation why they wish to forcibly ban MBP all the while allowing other activities with greater risks (such as breastfeeding, as you elequently pointed out) to continue unabated.

    #1096276

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam2,

    For the record, I wasn’t saying that he’s a rasha, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there are gedolim who hold he is. He certainly seems to be very antagonistic towards the RW, especially chassidim.

    I can relate a (unconfirmed) quote about him from a well known litvishe RY – “He’s a second rate talmid chochom… and a third rate scientist”.

    This was before the MBP controversy.

    And yes, my point wasn’t to prove the ancient origins of metzitza b’peh; my main point , you conceded.

    It is mistaver, though, that it was performed b’peh in the times of Chaza”l and earlier. The issue is whether b’peh was b’davka, or simply the available method.

    #1096277

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Can we get back to tendler bashing (?? ????? ????)

    #1096278

    mdd
    Member

    PBA, WIY and the rest, stop with the propaganda. What makes someone into a Talmid Chocham and a Gadol? Saying the shittos you like? Having some am’aratzim brainwashed into thinking that someone is a Gadol even if, sometimes, the person in question is not even a Talmid Chocham? Trust there were big Rabbis (Gedolim) who wrote shittos that you would not like.

    #1096279

    mdd
    Member

    Re: the propaganda piece about nursing. Nursing is not done from an open wound!

    #1096280

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    MDD: And that is exactly what you should be telling tendler. He is the one who apparently cannot tolerate any opinion but his own, and goes to the goyim to force it on us.

    I don’t have a problem with his opinion. I have a problem with his being a malshin. And a rasha. If he is so sure he is right, let him convince the gedolim. The litvish gedolim don’t even hold you need MBP; let him try to convince them to get involved. No, he goes straight to the goyim on his own gasus haruach. Well, that’s what takes him out of machane yisroel.

    And I have to add; it is so liberating to be able to tell lashon hara about someone! There is no way this guy is a tinok shenishba–he is Rav Moshe’s son in law! Ah, this is so geshmak; I should really save it for shabbos.

    #1096281

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Re: the propaganda piece about nursing. Nursing is not done from an open wound!

    I know nothing about nursing. But are you really using sevara to be mechaliek between ingesting something and sucking a wound? Why not use science? Go read some academic papers about it.

    #1096282

    iced
    Member

    mdd: Nursing is known to pass herpes.

    Do you propose nursing (and anything else that contains risk) be banned? Or is the proposal only that the ban apply to the stuff G-d told us to do?

    #1096283

    computer777
    Member

    While nursing is usually not done from an open would, it COULD be done from an open wound. Pretty painful, but does happen.

    #1096284

    mdd
    Member

    PBA and Iced, please, the mother nurses only her child. She does not go around nursing tons of babies. Plus, an open wound is different. Stop with the ridiculous arguments just to defend the cause. You lose credibility and turn people off that way!

    #1096285

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    mdd:

    You are the one being ridiculous. You are using sevara instead of science. It’s like you’re in the stone ages. If you want to know whether nursing spreads herpes or other viruses, go read a medical journal.

    #1096286

    mdd
    Member

    Iced, I propose banning fanatics as they have already caused enough damage to the G-d’s cause. For example, their behavior has driven a lot of people off the derech.

    #1096287

    mdd
    Member

    How many kids does a mother nurse, PBA? Calm down, will you?

    #1096288

    iced
    Member

    So what it is “only her child”? You want to allow mothers to cause brain damage or kill “only her child”?

    Oh. The risk is very small you say? It is also very small by MBP. Or driving. (Actually the risk of killing someone or getting killed driving is greater than doing MBP or nursing.)

    So we all take small calculated risks every day, don’t we. If we can take these risks for nursing and driving, we can take it for following our religion. Religious practice (i.e. doing G-d’s will) is at least as well worth the very small risk as driving or nursing.

    Surely those against MBP would similarly (to say the least) be opposed to the Akeidas Yitzchok. How dare a father plan on killing his child! Tendler would’ve likely called the cops to arrest Avraham Avinu and charge him with attempted murder.

    #1096289

    mdd
    Member

    PBA, on the other hand,if someone goes and sucks wounds by people, there could be cases of reshaim who have machalos becuse of their aveiros. Get it?

    #1096290

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    PBA, on the other hand,if someone goes and sucks wounds by people, there could be cases of reshaim who have machalos becuse of their aveiros. Get it?

    I don’t think you know what this herpes virus is. It is carried by something like 97% of the population and causes cold sores when it flared up. It is not the herpes you are thinking of.

    #1096291

    mdd
    Member

    Iced, my point is that with one mother and her child where they would get infected from? However, when many people are involved…

    Besides, every surgical procedure in a hospital is required to have all the precautions. Not so is nursing. Again, you are just damaging your credibility with this type of arguments.

    #1096292

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Iced, my point is that with one mother and her child where they would get infected from? However, when many people are involved…

    Dude: you have no idea what you are saying. Most people in the united states are infected with herpes simplex 1, and it is not the same as the virus you are thinking of. Do a google search and see for yourself. Search for oral herpes or herpes simplex

    #1096293

    iced
    Member

    Over 90% of all adults have herpes complex.

    #1096294

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    This is not about banning, Its about signing a piece of paper saying you know there are risks.

    What is wrong with telling the public there is a small chance of a health risk.

    FYI Rav Tendler is not the only one who is against MBP, However it seems that in the more Charedi communities they are all for it and in the more modern communities they are against it.

    #1096295

    Health
    Participant

    HaLeiVi -“Opinion is one thing. Attacking others publicly and inviting government intervention for his ‘opinion’ is beyond the pale.”

    This comment I agree with, but there is a Limud Zecus for Rabbi Dr. Tendler. It seems he helped publish an article written in the AAP mag “Pediatrics”, awhile ago. It seems Docs in Israel have basically proven that MBP causes HSV-1 in infants.

    So I understand his frustration because it seems that e/o is ignoring the 800 lb. gorilla in the room.

    Awhile ago I called for a panel to discuss this issue and come out with recommendations. As far as I know the “powers that be” have Not done anything of the sort. It seems they have swept this under the carpet just like the molestation issue.

    So I’ll recommend guidelines myself and here they are:

    1. All Mohelim should be tested for HSV 1 & 2.

    2. Those that test negative should be retested every 3 months.

    3. Those that test positive should not perform MBP without explaining the risks to the parents; it doesn’t have to be a written explanation.

    4. If the parents want the Mohel that is HSV pos. to go ahead anyway with MBP, then the Parents should be given the option that the Mohel has to take antivirals, starting a few days before the Mila, to lessen the chance of the infant picking up the HSV.

    The Mohel doesn’t have to continue taking the drugs after the Mila, unless he wants to.

    5. Those Mohelim that don’t want to comply with this guideline should Not be allowed to practice Mila!

    Now the only problem is getting the Gedolim to implement the guideline.

    #1096296

    iced
    Member

    Zsd: Its not just a consent form. The required form states that MBP can kill the baby.

    #1096297

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Health: How would that work? Don’t like 90% of people carry Herpes simplex 1?

    #1096298

    ygmonsey
    Participant

    Just for the record. When the Mohel Hatzadik, R’ Yitzchok Fischer was vilified & reported to city & state officials aproximately 7 yrs ago, by this piece of rubbish, many prominent Rabonim spoke out by refferring to him as a Roshah, Rodeph and many other titles. One of the most Chashuva Robonim refused to mention his name in the Bais Medresh. BTW I don’t know if the tape is still available, but this low life personaly took credit of the masirah.

    With regard to the Har Habayis, all the Gedolim clearly forbade any Jew from accending the Har Habayis. It was not enough that he went himself, but he insisted in having it video taped. I think this says it all.

    #1096299

    Health
    Participant

    PBA – Please reread my comments. I didn’t say Mohelim who test pos. Cannot perform Mila or even MBP. I just gave them certain restrictions.

    Babies health, esp. when it could be Sakanos Nefoshos is Not Hefker!

    #1096300

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Well is there no chance of any harm to the baby or is there some truth to the form.

    I sign all sorts of stupid waiver telling me something can possibly kill me.

    Instead of fighting this, The charedi Rabbis should be looking to remove the Mohels who caused this in the first place and REQUIRE testing for Herpes of Mohels. If you test positive for herpes you cannot be a Mohel.

    #1096301

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    But health: what is the purpose of testing for something with a 90% probability. How about just saying if you have open sores you shouldn’t do MBP that day? (You could just have the father do it.)

    zdad: 90% of people have it. It lies dormant but never goes away.

    #1096302

    Health
    Participant

    PBA -Because even if it was 1% of Mohelim who don’t have it -the parents have that right to know.

    Right now the ball is in the Mohelim’s court -I’m just evening the play.

    Not like Zdad, I don’t feel all HSV pos. have no right to practice Mila or MBP.

    “How about just saying if you have open sores you shouldn’t do MBP that day? (You could just have the father do it.)”

    This wouldn’t solve anything. Anyone who is HSV pos. (both 1 & 2) sheds virus all the time, even when asymptomatic. Although when they don’t have the actual cold sore they are less contagious, but not entirely Non-contagious. And unless the father is HSV -neg., then giving the job to the father makes zero difference.

    We have to protect the rights of innocent babies, along with the rights of anyone who wants to practice Mila and MBP!

    #1096303

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: Yes, everyone has it. But it’s far more dangerous to transfer it to an open wound then it is through normal contact, certainly to someone that young.

    DY: I said that identical thing (whether MBP was Davka or just the best way in Chazal’s time) here a few months back.

    ygmonsey: Not “all the Gedolim” said it. It was a Machlokes. He felt that he needed to very strongly show which way he held.

    #1096304

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    mdd (or should that be mdt),

    What propaganda about Nursing? The Mayor’s plan to try to force every women to Nurse?

    I did not see any other item that possibly could be considered propoganda about nursing.

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