September 21, 2012 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #1096305
mdd (or should that be mdt),
Where in the DOH provision does it differntiate between someone just doing MbP for one child or someone who does it more often, as a Mohel?
In addition, a mother nurses her child *way* more often than a mohel performs MbP.
Your whole arguiment is specious and baseless.September 21, 2012 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #1096306
mdd (or should that be mdt),
No one, certainly not me, is calling for an end to mothers nursing. The point is that at the same time that the Mayor is hot to stop MbP becauses of an *unsupported* and apparently *unsuportable* claim that it causes HSV transmission. (Obviously we are not talking about open sores, Mohelim do not do MbP when they have the slightest indication of illness)
At the same time he is pushing a practice that according to a study reported by the National Institutes of Health (US government agency, part of the US Dept of Health and Human Services)does put a baby at risk for getting the HSV. Obviously he feels that it should not be stopped because the risk is small enoufgh, yet it is clear that the risk is many times greater than any risk associated with MbP.
Therein lies the hypocrisy, which you to seem to have been infected with as well. (And apparently not through MbP)September 21, 2012 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1096307
mdd (or should that be mdt),
It would seem that people who are blase about keeping up the mesorah and grab onto to any narishe thing that it allegedly more modern have caused significantly more neshomos to be lost to klal yisroel than any that may have left because of fanatics. And this is not new.September 21, 2012 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #1096308
You inanely say “The charedi Rabbis should be looking to remove the Mohels who caused this in the first place and REQUIRE testing for Herpes of Mohels. If you test positive for herpes you cannot be a Mohel.”
What you really mean is that someone should remove the *person* who spread false rumors about a mohel and got the DOH to pass the first government imposed restrictions to milah. (Notice I did not say circumcision)September 21, 2012 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1096309
You present the following as a signe of your ignorance “However it seems that in the more Charedi communities they are all for it and in the more modern communities they are against it.
A) The RCA also came out against the DOH sanctions.
B) Not everyone who is Chored al dvar hashem feels that MbP is a must. However the yrecognize that is an accepted hakpodah by others. And they feel that they are entitled to follow their mesorah.
However you seem to be a part of the group that feels only your way of doing things is correct and you will do all you can to dirupt what these G-d fearing Jews have been risking their lives to do for centuries.
No one is forcing you to do MbP and for that matter, I doubt if a mohel would do MpB for you were you to engage a mohel because of health risks.
But why do you feel that you have right to dtermine what other should do? It is certainly not from your superior halachic knowledge nor scientfic knowledge.September 21, 2012 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #1096310
The general rate in the U.S. of neonatal herpes simplex is 1 in 3,000 infants. The rate of neonatal herpes simplex, as counted by the NYC DOH, among babies who had MBP is NO HIGHER than the rate of the general populace.
Thus, we see that MBP carries no greater risk of herpes than a baby who does not have MBP or does not even have a Bris altogether!September 21, 2012 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #1096311zahavasdadParticipant
The RCA may have come against the law itself, but individual Rabbis have come out against MBP (The RCA doesnt speak for all its members), Just like the Agudah doesnt speak for every Charedi RabbiSeptember 21, 2012 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #1096312
Zdad: of course. And don’t get us wrong, I myself do not approve of MBP. I just recognize the right of other minhagim who disagree with me.September 21, 2012 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1096313
PBA: If (completely hypothetically) it could be proven that MBP carries with it serious health risks would you still recognize the rights of those MInhagim?September 21, 2012 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #1096314
Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh wanted MBP to be done. He once gave an exceptional heter to a particular case to forgo it, but he made clear he wanted MBP to be done regularly. The Maharam Schick and many Litvishe Gedolim insisted that MBP must be done.September 21, 2012 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #1096315
PBA: If (completely hypothetically) it could be proven that MBP carries with it serious health risks would you still recognize the rights of those MInhagim?
I suppose at some point it could be clear they were lunatics, like if it killed every time, and we know that bris is not yehareig v’al yaavor. But even your hypothetical does not go that far.
See, this is about the fact that the people doing this have poskim, and have gedolim, and this is what they are being told to do. How can I sit here and decide that their poskim and gedolim are so clearly wrong, on an issue which really is not very clear at all, and indeed is the way bris has been practiced for millennia?
It is very rare for a posek to be that wrong that popa in his throne would be willing to call him obviously wrong. The only example I can think of off the bat, is the ??? ?????, of whom this discussion is about.September 21, 2012 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #1096317
If? We see that it doesn’t. There are so few instances of HSV. If there were serious risks there would have to be more cases.
Remember, we are not talking about when the mohel has an active case. They already abstain then. As they do when they have sniffles or any active health concerns. You are talking if it might be transmitted when the mohel is solely a carrier. 80% + are carriers and there have been no correlation at all to any incidence that can match that.
You may as well ask if there would be the same reaction to R Tendler if he were chasidish. From either group. It’s an inane question.September 21, 2012 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #1096318
Those that claim we can do away with MBP because it was only instituted for medical benefits and they now say it has no medical benefits… according to your logic you should discontinue ANY metzitza — including with a tube — based upon that faulty logic. Why do you still do metzitza at all (with a tube)?September 21, 2012 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #1096319
Before you said ” FYI Rav Tendler is not the only one who is against MBP, However it seems that in the more Charedi communities they are all for it and in the more modern communities they are against it.”
Clearly you meant that those were the overwhelming majority views of the respective communities.
Now you say that RCA does not represent all MO. But a significant portion they certainly do. They are clearly the leading and overwhelmingly largest Modern Orthodox rabbinic assembly in the US. Maybe they do not represent the Avi Weiss group. And not Tendler. But you are at a minimum being inconsistent. And more likely just farblundget.September 21, 2012 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #1096320
Shlishi: I believe R’ Schachter has said that it is a very serious issue because if Metzitzah is only for the health benefits then it should be an Issur D’Oraisa Bizman Hazeh on Shabbos because our doctors say there is no Sakanah if you don’t do it. (Maybe one could think like the Tzitz Eliezer and say that if Chazal declare something a Sakanah that it stays a Sakanah L’olam Va’ed even to be Mechallel Shabbos over it even if our doctors say there’s no Sakanah, but that is very, very Shver). Pashtus in many Poskim is that it’s only because it’s a Sakanah if you don’t do Metzitzah. Which makes what to do on Shabbos a very serious Shaila.
Nisht: I was talking in a broader case and not even about Metzitzah. And it’s not so true that people know not to do MBP when they have an open sore. I remember a Rebbe of mine (who is very, very Chareidi) told us that when he looked into this 30+ years ago (this issue has been around for 200 years now) a lot of the Mohalim he spoke to knew scarily little about germs and transmissions of diseases and stuff like that and that of course they would do MBP even if they were sick. Hopefully the one good thing that comes out of this whole controversy is that all Mohalim will hopefully know not to do it if they are even the least bit sick or if they have an open sore.September 21, 2012 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #1096321
Why do you still do metzitza at all (with a tube)?
Because the Gemara says that not to do metzitza is a sakana.September 21, 2012 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #1096322
DaasYochid: You missed my point. I was addressing my question to those that say it is unnecessary to do MBP because it has now been proven medically unnecessary. Based upon that reasoning, they should do away with any metzitza.September 21, 2012 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #1096323
Shlishi: First of all, quote properly. That’s not R’ Hutner’s Rebbe but the Rebbe of the author of the T’shuvos Pachad Yitzchak. And he is not the only opinion on the matter. Several Achronim are Chocheich L’hachmir by killing lice on Shabbos.September 21, 2012 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1096324
I made no mention of Rav Hutner. And although Rav Hutner wrote a Sefer by that name, Rav Hutner is not commonly known as “The Pachad Yitzchok”. My comment was quite clear with the context of referring to Rav Breil and his status as the Rebbe of the Pachad Yitzchok.September 22, 2012 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1096325truthsharerMember
There is a difference to MBP and MBTube. Many/Most (contrary to what you read in the YWN) frum jews do MBT because they know that there is a health benefit to metzitzah, but the benefit is negated when you do it MBP. The “halacha” is do to metzitzah, but if it’s safer to do it with a tube, now that 1) we invented tubes and 2) we know that there is a (slim) possibility of transferring diseases we don’t need to do it b’peh.September 23, 2012 1:02 am at 1:02 am #1096326
” frum jews do MBT because they know that there is a health benefit to metzitzah, but the benefit is negated when you do it MBP.”
What is the health benefit to metitzah with a tube?September 23, 2012 5:46 am at 5:46 am #1096327
What is the health benefit to metitzah with a tube?
It removes the blood, even that which is distant from the wound.September 23, 2012 5:58 am at 5:58 am #1096328
Shlishi: What’s the health benefit to do Metzitzah with the mouth?September 23, 2012 7:46 am at 7:46 am #1096329HaLeiViParticipant
Sam, there is a Teshuva from Rav Kuk about Metzitza, where he says that a doctor has a Din of Safek and Divrei Chazal are Vadai.September 23, 2012 11:25 am at 11:25 am #1096330
Sam2: truthsharer said above that there is a health benefit to metitza with a tube. So I wish to know what it is.
DaasYochid: There are many in the anti-MBP crowd (and I’m not in any way referring to you or people who use a tube in general but rather the anti crowd) that make the argument that a) MBP was only instituted for the health benefit b) now there is a greater health benefit to do bris milah without MBP and c) therefore we halachicly can and should replace MBP with a new method that promotes greater health and safety.
So my question to those folks is that, using their line of reasoning, they should be promoting discontinuing any metzitza even with a tube and rather be using modern medicine’s approach to keep the baby healthy immediately after the bris, than using any form of metzitza. Modern medicine does not require any metzitza (and no doctor [instead of a mohel] performing a neonatal circumcision will use metzitza to remove the blood) as they have “safer” methods.September 23, 2012 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #1096331
HaLeiVi: The Aruch Hashulchan says the same thing. He has a great line in there too. “Chazal are smarter than them.”
Shlishi: The point is that the same potential health benefits that could exist with MBP exist with doing it with a sterile tube. The reason we still do it is because Chazal were Kovea it as a Sakanah and therefore we have to treat it as such even if modern medicine says it isn’t (much like the Tzitz Eliezer’s Shittah on these types of issues).September 23, 2012 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1096332HaLeiViParticipant
Shlishi, the idea is probably that they don’t want to disregard the words of Chazal.September 23, 2012 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #1096333
So if we are still mechalel shabbos for it, doesn’t it make sense that it would also crowd out a very minor sakana?September 23, 2012 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1096334
That’s exactly my point! Even the vocal anti-MBP crowd themselves continue metzitza (with a tube as it is) because Chazal were Kovea it as such (and even though modern medicine would tell them to forgo metzitza altogether for a medically safer approach).
And our point is that Chazal were Kovea MBP itself. (Granted they disagree with this view of Chazal, but nevertheless it is our strongly posited halachic definition of Chazal. And they cannot demand we forgo what we pasken is mandatory per Chazal.) So just as they insist on continuing metzitza with a tube because Chazal were Kovea it, we insist on continuing MBP because Chazal were Kovea it.
If they demand we stop MBP despite our poskim paskening we must do MBP per Chazal, they should have stopped metzitza (even with a tube — in favor of a more modern medically safe approach). Since they are not, they are being hypocritical in their position. They continue MBT (per Chazal) but demand we stop MBP (which is also mandatory per Chazal, according to our poskim.)September 23, 2012 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #1096335
shlishi -“So just as they insist on continuing metzitza with a tube because Chazal were Kovea it, we insist on continuing MBP because Chazal were Kovea it.”
I agree that MBP should continue, but only if there is a guideline. They could use mine that I posted above or a different one, but they can’t continue to pretend there is No danger to the babies!September 23, 2012 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1096336
There are risks involved in neonatal circumcision even without metzitza. Those risks include life-threatening bacterial infection, bacteremia, hemorrhage, surgical trauma and urinary tract infections.
Perhaps these folks should be pressing for government regulation, or even banning, of any neonatal circumcision performed by a non-physician or outside a medical facility.
There are risks to plain circumcision. Certainly the aforementioned risks are reduced when performed in a medical facility (i.e. a hospital) and by a doctor.
How can these people risk their babies health performing it outside a medical facility or by a non-physician?September 23, 2012 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #1096337
A few points: The Gemara says metzitzah must be done. It does not say it must be done with the mouth. It just says there must be suction. We learn that it’s done by mouth because the Rema says that you spit out the blood into the dirt. (Not that the Rema is not cause enough to do it!)
As for the reasoning behind it, the OU writes the following on their website:
The Chatam Sofer went on to demonstrate that applying cumin powder is also listed in the Mishnah as something done even on Shabbat, yet no one argues that only cumin must be used as a salve for the area. Since the Talmudic era we have found more effective methods of achieving homeostasis and protecting the wound from infection, and this is why halachic authorities do not require the use of cumin alone. Similarly, contended the Chatam Sofer, based on the Mishnah, no one could argue that the mouth alone had to be used to suction the blood.
12. This letter was first printed in 1845 by Menachem Mendel Stern in the periodical Kochvei Yitzchak. It is quoted in a number of secondary sources, including Rabbi Rami Cohen, Bris Avraham HaKohen (New York, 1993), 192.”September 24, 2012 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1096338
Menachem Mendel Stern was a maskil and Kochvei Yitzchak was a publication of the haskala. Anything they published is suspect of forgery.September 24, 2012 1:56 am at 1:56 am #1096339
And to clarify, you are quoting from R Romi Cohen who happens to be at the forefront of the battle against the DOH. Perhaps that should tell you something.September 24, 2012 3:20 am at 3:20 am #1096340
So, finally something is waking the people up to whats going on!! What a relief ! I knew this was coming, but unfortunately jews are in denial until something happens to them. What am I talking about? This is what Ron Paul has been trying to tell you all along. The government is taking over every aspect of your life. You dont believe it, well now you will see it. I have been trying to tell people about this, since they are doing the same thing with vaccines. Just by the way, many non jewish babies died after birth and they call it SIDS. check the insert. The DTP vaccine insrt states that SIDS can be followed by the vaccine. SO now instead of blaming the vaccine they blame the parents for shaking the baby, but better yet , blame the Mohel, who just did a bris on a baby that got the HEP b vaccine at birth, and now the hep b virus is transfered to the mohel, so the mohel is causing the baby to die. WOw! great , when the non jewish baby dies from the HEP b vaccine, they say its sids, eventhough the brain gets inflamed from the vaccine. WHen will people see the truth about whats going on? My guess, is never, because people are ridiculous and think that the US government is here to protect you. wake up real fast. ANd thanks to this forum, I cant even let you know about this , since the moderator will delete anything they think is not to their liking. I am sick and tired of people living in a daze, not seeing what is coming. Then they have all the problems. SO start doing your research now.September 24, 2012 3:27 am at 3:27 am #1096341
And by the way there is no benefit to vaccinate with HEP B , it was given to the babies because the adults who were the ones at risk didnt want to take it , so congress said give it to th babies. YOur child isnt at risk for a STD , sorry folks. They are also coming out with a AIDS vaccine. Do you believe now that your child will get aids? just think about it, and oh,one more , they are giving the GARDASIL vaccine for boys. It was meant to protect from cervical cancer, HUH? to boys? go figure. If it doesnt make sense then do your research and you will be shocked at what you will find.September 24, 2012 3:50 am at 3:50 am #1096342
Didnt you see it coming? This is happening with every aspect of our life.
Colorado homeschoolers have to keep vaccination records that can be audited. In California, if AB 2109 is signed by Governor Brown, the new requirements will apply to all homeschools. We don’t lose our rights overnight, they are taken away gradually. Too many people sit back, do nothing and say “that won’t affect me” or “I’ll just move to another state.” We are seeing new bills and rules to restrict exemptions in many states.September 24, 2012 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #1096343September 24, 2012 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #1096344gavra_at_workParticipant
“It is a permissible reading of the [free exercise clause]…to say that if prohibiting the exercise of religion is not the object of the [law] but merely the incidental effect of a generally applicable and otherwise valid provision, the First Amendment has not been offended….To make an individual’s obligation to obey such a law contingent upon the law’s coincidence with his religious beliefs, except where the State’s interest is ‘compelling’ – permitting him, by virtue of his beliefs, ‘to become a law unto himself,’ contradicts both constitutional tradition and common sense.’ To adopt a true ‘compelling interest’ requirement for laws that affect religious practice would lead towards anarchy.”
Employment Division v. SmithSeptember 24, 2012 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #1096345
shein: The letter is also printed in the sefer from R’ Romi Cohen, which has glowing haskamos from many Rabbonim.
nishtdayngesheft: I know all about R’ Cohen. He was the mohel at my son’s bris. My point was in response to shlishi, to prove that metzitzah is for medical benefit. These are not my words, they’re the words of the Chassam Sofer.
The Chassam Sofer also wrote, “However, we have no dealing with hidden matters if there is at all even the slightest concern of a health hazard.”
In this case, many Rabbonim hold there is more than even a slight concern. They, however, realize that there are others who disagree.
R’ Tendler goes a step further. He holds it is full-on pikuach nefesh to do it, and that is why he came out so strongly against it. Not out of disrespect, but out of concern. He feels that he is literally saving lives.September 24, 2012 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1096346
Chance -“SO now instead of blaming the vaccine they blame the parents for shaking the baby, but better yet , blame the Mohel, who just did a bris on a baby that got the HEP b vaccine at birth, and now the hep b virus is transfered to the mohel, so the mohel is causing the baby to die.”
You just proved the adage of -“Some people never change”.
It must be fun living your whole life with conspiracy theories.
So let me get this straight -the baby comes down with Hep B from a Non-living vaccine and then gives it to the Mohel who in turn passes it on to other kids and then they die from Hep B and not from Herpes? Just making sure I understand the theory correctly.
Btw, what’s your opinion on whether men actually landed on the moon? How about JFK -who killed him?September 24, 2012 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #1096347
1) Metzizah is for medical benefit, therefore no one holds that If metzizah is done in another fashion you do not have to redo the bris.
2) That does not mean that it is not a chelek of the mitzvah.
3) that does not mean that there is not a preferential way to do that part of the mitzvah.
4) Tendler’s stance is irrational and not supportable by anyone, not even the study he co(made up)authored. What he has done is a true chilul hasahem, in any meaning of the word. The biggest proof is the way he has gone about it, including running to the urinal news for his story. Which is akin to publishing something against the yidden in Goebbels ym’s newspaper. I am not sure how he can look himself in the mirror without feeling sick.September 25, 2012 12:23 am at 12:23 am #1096348
nishtdayngesheft: RABBI Tendler is a huge talmud chacham, and it is not for you to judge him. Personally, I disagree with him as well. That doesn’t give me the right to insult and degrade him. I haven’t heard any big Rabbonim insult him. Who are you (or anyone else on this site) to insult him?September 25, 2012 4:39 am at 4:39 am #1096349rabbiofberlinParticipant
gavra at work- you are misquoting the Supreme Court decision. The case you are quoting deals with a situation if someone uses religious beliefs as a pretext to avoid a law. Read the whole deision. Quite different from the case here.September 25, 2012 5:11 am at 5:11 am #1096350
RABBI Tendler is a huge talmud chacham, and it is not for you to judge him.
Yes, usually I wouldn’t. But when he is a malshin, all bets are off.
Yeravom ben nevat was also the gadol hador before he became an oved avodah zara. And the bnei yisroel were still held to task for not standing up to him, when he suggested worshiping avodah zara. Even though he had a good lomdish explanation.
There is no defense for tendler (?? ????? ????). If he wants to make a takana, he should go to the other rabbonim in his city. If he can convince them-good. If he can’t–he is not allowed to instead institute it via the government.
It is not good enough for him to simply claim that it is sakanas nefashos. I will grant that he thinks it is. But does he have access to information that the rest of the rabbonim in his city do not? If he does, let him show it to them. If his argument is so strong, let him convince the other rabbonim in his city to act together with him. Clearly, the other rabbonim do not agree with him.September 25, 2012 6:01 am at 6:01 am #1096351
nishtdayngesheft -“not even the study he co(made up) authored.”
So is that how the ones who believe in MBP get around the Issur D’oraysa of Sakonos Nefoshos? Since Rabbi Tendler put his name in the article -so it must be false? I personally believe you can do MBP, but only with a guideline, like I posted previously.
If the community and their Rabbonim and the Mohelim are going to pretend there is No danger -they all will end up being Metztaref in the Issur of Rezicha, if they haven’t already.
Here is the article printed in “Pediatrics” from the AAP. Just the abstract:
“Neonatal Genital Herpes Simplex Virus Type 1 Infection After Jewish Ritual Circumcision: Modern Medicine and Religious Tradition”
+ Author Affiliations”
“*Pediatric Hematology/Oncology Unit, Soroka University Medical Center and the Faculty of Health Sciences, Ben Gurion University, Beer Sheva, Israel
?Department of Pediatrics, Hadassah University Hospital, Ein Kerem, Jerusalem, Israel
#Department of Pediatric Laboratory Medicine, Hospital for Sick Children and the University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
**Department of Clinical Pharmacology and Toxicology, Hospital for Sick Children and the University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Objective. Genital neonatal herpes simplex virus type 1 (HSV-1) infection was observed in a series of neonates after traditional Jewish ritual circumcision. The objective of this study was to describe neonate genital HSV-1 infection after ritual circumcision and investigate the association between genital HSV-1 after circumcision and the practice of the traditional circumcision.
Methods. Eight neonates with genital HSV-1 infection after ritual circumcision were identified.September 25, 2012 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1096352
Methods. Eight neonates with genital HSV-1 infection after ritual circumcision were identified.
Exactly what scientific standards does a study have, when it
studies 8 cases?
And bases its conclusion on the average amount of time between exposure and infection, when the times range up to 3 times the amount of time as the lower end?
And uses no counterfactuals?
And makes assumptions based on an exposure which every baby in that community is exposed to, without using the average from the community?
Hilarious.September 25, 2012 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1096353gavra_at_workParticipant
rabbiofberlin: That is my point. The government cannot make a law that only affects a religious practice. It CAN make a law that incidentally affects a religious practice.
The MBP law will probably be declared unconstitutional as is.September 25, 2012 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #1096354
I can hardly believe you would try to pass yourself of as a health professional without noting the numerous glaring holes in the alleged study. Which as everyone knows had the conclusion written before the study began.
I wonder if that is is how some justify the colossal chillul Hashem perpetrated by this individual? Because he has a half baked study?
Please, even his original target has performed Grissom many thousands of times and he can only find two cases to pin on him? That alone flies in the face of his own study.
Besides I wonder if you any clue what sakonas necashos means.
As I stated numerous times above, we are not talking about when there is an active case. Mohel in do not so MbP then anyway. What is manufactured is that there is any real risk of shedding from non active cases.
If there were, then it would be ossur to nurse because the sakonah is at least as great then. Are you suggesting that it should be ossur to nurse as well? You should if your consistent.September 25, 2012 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #1096355
pba: And who are you to call Rabbi Tendler a malshin?
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