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  • #598868
    yentemonkey
    Member

    Hi I’m 17 i am not in yeshiva currently – i started out as a good kid but i wasn’t the best i would hang out with the wrong friends but i was always frum and kept shabos and tefilin and kashrus . I was thrown out of yeshiva for talking to girls which was not such a big problem . NOW HERE IS MY QUESTION – I don’t understand why the rabbi threw me out if i didn’t ruin other kids ? if he had a problem with me talking to girls he should of spoke tome and WORK WITH ME TO STOP !!! In gemara i was doing well i wanted to do good but i had one weakness and that was girls !! NOW i don’t understand something what do the rabbiam ,principales and teachers think is going to happen if they kick a kid out of school ? Do they think the student will change ? THE ANSWER IS NO !! The student will be worse and will end up in the street and start to rebel !! I sometimes don’t understand why neighbors ,teachers and colleagues snitch or rat out students for hanging out !! WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU ARE GAINING BY BEING A SNITCH ? YOU ARE RUINING US KIDS !! If you have a problem with what I’m doing talk to me about it !! NOT MY MENAHEL OR MICHANECHES !! Maybe I’ll change and stop !! Why do you have to be the one to snitch and mess up my life ??? NOW i’m on the street with a bunch of bums that im aware aren’t my friends they are just users and drug abusers ! and who do yo think caused it all ?? YOU (the snitch)in part ! I agree that i shouldn’t be talking to girls and its wrong !! but why don’t you talk to me straight ??? WHY GO TO THE MENAHEL ??? A BOCHUR WHO HAS GONE ASTRAY AND IS FINDING HIS WAY BACK thanks all for reading MAY WE BE ZOCHA TO HAVE ME AND ALL MY FRIENDS BACK ON THE DERECH BIKAROV ! AMEN ! 😉

    #801686
    observanteen
    Member

    First of all, amein to your bracha.

    Now, before I judge the rebbe, menahel or teacher, I’d like to ask you to take a step back. Where were YOU? Yeah, YOU. You knew you were a good kid with one weakness, why didn’t you ask for help? If you didn’t feel comfortable discussing it with your rebbe, why didn’t you have a talk with your parents? Or daas Torah? Or the rav of your shul? Or a big brother/in law? Or an uncle?

    You seem to be a smart kid who knows what’s right and wrong. It doesn’t look like you’re struggling with your Emuna, B”H. All you need, is a little guidance. Perhaps you’re right, maybe they WERE to quick to decide to throw you out – there’s no way I should know since I’m not involved in this. But I think that instead of focusing on THEIR wrongdoing and how bad THEY are, why don’t you spend your energy on thinking how you can better yourself? You don’t seem to be too deeply involved with the “bad crowd” on the streets – baruch Hashem. Before things spiral out of control, SEEK HELP! Don’t just sit back and blame your rebbes. Try being saved! You’ve entered a VERY dangerous zone which is like quicksand. Before you know it, things may get MUCH more complicated chalila. DON’T DO IT! For your sake and for klal yisroel. You said you’re good in gemara. You might end up being a great talmid chacham! Don’t allow this to go to waste.

    Look for the right person. Try getting a mentor. Tell them you’re willing to change. I can almost guarantee you that if you are sincere and truly show that your willing and ready to work hard, they’ll accept you with open arms. From experience I tell you – it pays!

    (BTW, I’m 18 and I too, struggled this past year. I think being 17 is not easy, but now I can say that all my difficulty truly helped me grow and helped me be what I’m now.)

    Hatzlacha rabba.

    #801687

    I agree with you, throwing you out is not the way to go and as you said can have an even greater negative effect… As they say you cath mote bees with honey than vinegar…you should have been dealt with patience and love… BH many rabbonim know how to deal with kids… I would spend some time looking for one…as we approach Elul now better than ever… I would suggest getting in touch with rabbi Wallerstein

    #801688
    RSRH
    Member

    Simple answer: Many (maybe most) people just do not understand how to deal with these situations properly – they have never gone through them themselves or worked closely to help those who have; they react impulsively without thinking things through. This goes for friends, neighbors, and yes, even people in positions of authority like rabbeim and roshei yeshiva (though generally rabbonim of a kehilla are far better at this since they must deal with their congregants as a whole – they don’t get to send them home after seder and let them be their parents’ problem). Simply put, oftentimes people do stupid things. It seems as though you have been subjected to this, and most unfortunately it came from those who you should be able to trust and work with.

    I don’t know where you live, or whether your looking for some support and help, but I have quite a bit of experience in these metters, and if you’d like to contact the mods and get in contact with me, please please do so.

    Kol tuv, and the best of luck to you! You are a wonderful person trying hard to do what’s right, and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise – only you know how difficult your struggles are and how hard your trying; most everyone else is just looking at the outside.

    #801689
    rosesharon
    Member

    Its more of a problem that your menahel threw you out and that you were snitched on then you talking to girls, I hope you realize that. Please take this experience and grow from it. Learn to help other bochers like you maintain their yiddishkeit when it is mutilated by “well meaning” yidden. Turn this into something positive and learn the laws of lashon hara in the zechus of the one that snitched on you- they will need all the zechus they can get and by learning the laws you will ensure that 1)you will never do the same in any situation and 2) you can stop it from happening to someone else.

    #801690
    emunah613
    Member

    You are obviously very hurt and you are right- a person should have spoken to you first before tattling on you. My question is why did you not go to a different yeshiva? Why was your choice to go straight to “the street”?

    My cousin had your situation and was thrown out of a long list of yeshivos but going to the street was never an option that occured to him. He is a kollel avreich today. (Ironically he has 7 daughters)

    Even if you are now on the street, why do you not try to get back into another yeshiva? You are so young and you are not the first person to confront this issue. There are numerous yeshiva options-why not speak to a rav to ask for advice on where you might go?

    Please write back and let us know how you are! All of Klal Yisroel wants you back! Chazak Veametz. Your mind is too precious to waste. The only one who can make something happen is you.

    BTW my son was kicked out of yeshiva for smoking Marlboros. He was devastated. We spoke to his 6th grade rebbe who recommended the yeshiva he is in now. There he met the rav that changed his entire outlook on life. He is your age and is so shtark! Don’t give up-you may just end up in a yeshiva that will be the best place for you to grow in.

    #801691
    Yatzmich
    Member

    Yente,

    You sound so frustrated, & rightfully so. You write that you’re on the street with a bunch of chevra that you are aware are not your friends. It’s so good that you are aware of where you’re holding in life and you know that these guys are no good for you.

    Please, please, try not to hang with them, you don’t want to be brought (down) to their level. Try to stay where YOU are at, and things will be better for you. When people see that you have an opportunity to decline, and you pass it up to stay at a higher level, they will take notice & RESPECT, yes I said RESPECT you, & then life will start becoming a bit brighter for you & you will slowly climb from your low point.

    #801692
    Hacham
    Member

    A boy who talks to girls WILL negatively influence his classmates. The Menahel had to weigh hurting one person vs. hurting 25 persons in the class.

    #801693
    deiyezooger
    Member

    Others might be the blame for your problems but at the end of the day it’s your life!! Take control over it. (Those things that are in your control of course, you cant control what others do to you but you can control what you do to yourself). With the positive attitude you ended your post I’m sure you will come out of this better and stronger.

    #801695
    Hacham
    Member

    Every aveira? There is a humongous difference between skipping a tefila and arayos/talking to girls.

    #801697
    kylbdnr
    Member

    I was in the same boat as you. I was considered the “bad girl” in my school until my mom found out (or so she thought). She found out and instead of her treating me like a human being, she just put me down and yelled at me. Did it help? NO. Did it make me worse? YES! I was outside on the streets till late and I didn’t care… Lucky for me, one of the guys I bumped into came from a traditional family and with his help, I became a “better” girl. We both helped each other get out of it. He never used to go to shul or go learn and now he goes to shul almost every day to pray and learn. After 3 years, I’m finally engaged to him 😉 Can this have ended up much worse? Yes. I was very lucky to meet him and I stopped talking to all the other guys I spoke to (even if it took a year.)

    Was it wrong to snitch on you? Definitely. But you can’t change the past (my mom treated me bad too. In fact, she was encouraging my school to do the same. Eventually she thought I stopped even though I really didn’t.) Hopefully you can continue going in the right path. I agree with mikehall about getting in touch with Rabbi Wallerstein.

    #801698
    Health
    Participant

    yentemonkey – While I agree with you what you did then pales in comparison to what you do now, still there are others besides you in the school. The kid did the right thing in snitching and the prinicpal did the right thing in throwing you out. He could have given you a warning, but he isn’t/wasn’t required to. There are posters above who don’t like this, but it doesn’t mean they are right.

    “NOW i’m on the street with a bunch of bums that im aware aren’t my friends they are just users and drug abusers !”

    Now I understand that you are angry and frustrated and I would be too, but why hang out in the streets? Hanging out in the streets will only lead to you losing any Jewish identity you still have.

    Why don’t you go to a modern orthodox school? I’ve posted this many times in the CR. They have normal Torah learning. Most of the students keep Shabbos. And being that most of these schools are mixed, you won’t get thrown out for talking to girls.

    This I think is the problem -most parents are only out for themselves, so they won’t do what’s best for the kid. A lot of parents will waste time trying to get their kid into another frum school for their own reputation, instead of putting the kid in an MO school. In the meantime the kid is hanging out in the worst places. I don’t want to sound Sharf, but these parents will have to give a bigger Din V’chesbon than the school because their kid is OTD. Let them get off their high horse and put the kid in a MO Yeshiva!

    #801699
    bombmaniac
    Participant

    Call me harsh, but get over yourself. Stop blaming everyone else. Can you seriously look yourself in the mirror and honestly say that your menahel was wrong for chucking you and that people like him cause society’s problems? You admit that you were doing things clearly against Yeshiva rules. See that word, rules? It means…that if you don;t follow them…there are consequences. There are reasons for those rules. People who break them stand to be a severe negative influence on their peers. Tell us, were you suspended? Were you given mussar? Were you disciplined? Ever?! IF yes, then you knew that what you were doing was wrong and would result in your expulsion. So stop blaming everyone. The fault belongs to none but yourself.

    That being said, you obviously don’t like where you are right now in life, and that’s a good start. As long as you have a desire to improve, there is potential. There are places for people who have had problems with yeshivos. The yeshiva that chucked you is in no way obligated to take you back, or even arrange for your transfer. They can’t take charge of your improvement, you can. Only you can pull yourself out of your current pit. Relying on others every time life throws you a challenge will get you nowhere. Take charge of your own future, and make yourself into what you want yourself to be.

    Find a Rav. Find a yeshiva. Find a counselor to help you through any problems that you may be having with family, etc. Find a group of suitable friends. Find a kiruv program if that;s what you need. But most importantly, be aware of who you are and where you are. You need to understand what your current level is if you want to improve. It may be tough, but you really do need to do a cheshbon hanefesh of sorts. Take stock of where you are and where you want to be. Then work toward your future.

    #801700
    MindOverChatter
    Participant

    “rabbiam ,principales and teachers think is going to happen if they kick a kid out of school ? Do they think the student will change ? THE ANSWER IS NO !!”

    Well, the world doesn’t revolve around one student. If 25 kids’ matzav in Yiddishkeit is at risk, then yes, the menahel should take action. If you don’t care about yourself, and you hang around with a crowd that you know don’t really like you, why do you expect others to care so much about you?

    #801701
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Once a Rav brought another rav to meet with the Chofetz Chaim , and the Chofetz Chaim threw the second rav out. As the Chofetz Chaim was not known to act this way. The came back a second time and he threw them out again.

    The came back a third time and before he could throw them out, The 2nd rav (The one who was thrown out) asked, Why do you throw me out.

    The Chofetz Chaim asked him do you remember Lev Bronstein. The rav answered. YES I do. I had to throw him out of the yeshiva..

    The Chofetz Chaim told him that Lev Bronstein was now Leon Trotsky head of the Bolshevik Revolution

    #801702
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Hacham, when a bochur skips a tfila his classmates notice and it can negatively influence them whereas if he talks to girls privately and his classmates don’t know about it then it won’t affect them. I heard somewhere that throwing a kid out of yeshiva is a case of dinei nefashos and should be treated as such.

    #801703

    The way we treat people is the way HAshem will treat us on 120 yrs, if we show compassion and love, if we try to help and show mercy… HAshem will do the same for us… As perfect as we think we are, when every minute of our lives are being reviewed, there will be no place to hide…”up there” the prosecutors don’t miss a thing, even our thoughts….you better pray for a compassionate and loving judge….if you throw somebody out, who otherwise shows potential and can be helped… then when your averias are brought to light, you may get thrown out as well, or much worse…something to keep in mind..

    And for the record this does not mean that every averia someone does should be blown aside, physical abuse, murder, molestation etc. Needs and should be dealt with harshly… But even with that, there is still proper procedures and punishments….

    I’m sorry, but throwing a kid even at 17 who knows he is struggling and has a desire to learn doesn’t seem the proper way to deal with him

    #801704

    There never was such an incident regarding Trotsky of less than blessed memory. He was never in any yeshiva and did not come from a frum family.

    An MO school will not help because it will be too hard to adjust to a completely different framework for someone who has already had adjustment issues.

    The rav was not right in throwing you out. How in the world did he find out you were talking to girls? I really have no respect for any rav or menahel who takes the word of a snitch – or even if he does, he should take it as a reason to work with you and not to throw you out. Someone once snitched on me to my public school teacher in the 6th grade – and I was actually guilty as charged – but the teacher disciplined the snitch for being immature and I had the last laugh. Today, that teacher is enjoying his retirement in Florida after a second career as a very successful real estate broker.

    There are probably other bochurim in your yeshiva who get away with more than you were thrown out for – because they are fakers and know how to hide their aveirois, or because their parents are (wealthy, big names etc). Throwing out should be reserved for bochurim who disrupt, or who really need to be in a vocational framework, or who are truly OTD and convincing others to go off.

    #801705
    abcd2
    Participant

    The boy is a teenager, he was most probably aware of the rules. HOWEVER even the owner of an animal is warned three times before being liable for being a muad. Perhaps the boy does not think talking to girls is such a big deal, a teacher or menahale must try reaching out educating and talking before using expulsion.

    A far better idea would have been to

    A) find out why the boy was hanging out

    B) after finding out such go over the halachos of tzniyus inside to make the boy realize that it is truly wrong. Not just some rules the school likes to enforce

    C) Then warn the boy that such further behavior cannot be tolerated as it is unbecoming a true yeshiva bochur.

    D)The informer should have spoken to the boy or if not viable to the boys parents.By speaking to the principle first, the boy was already shechted by the time he came to the office.As who knows what the informer said.

    The life of a teenager is very hard and complex.A yeshiva boy works harder then most adults from seven in the morning till late at night and no sundays.Additionally, they must constantly follow certain rules which they do not understand. We as a society demand a lot from them in turn we must be extremely understanding of them

    We cannot just press the Auto-Pilot button and assume that teenagers should just listen to everything just because it is right or came from an adult or Rebbe. How many Mussar sefarim are there? Dozens! Because it is so easy for adults to go astray. Why expect more from a teenager? Remember a teenager, does not fully comprehend things yet, is a work in progress and is in a constant state of pressure to succeed.Teenagers today have a very pressured life Yet, the chinuch model has generally not changed to help them, and we expect so much from them.Many times unfortunately, for problems big and small we just sweep them under the rug or completely asser certain activities without an effective way of dealing with them.What harm would have been done by this Rosh Yeshiva in a loving way learning together with this boy the Halachos of tzniyus with a warning that this behavior should not happen again?

    May the writer find Hatzlacha in all future endeavors

    #801707
    Toi
    Participant

    i want to remind all posters that only one side of this story is being presented, which means at best half the facts, perhaps mostly opinions. i was at risk and getting out of it is nearly impossible. i got “busted” and my RY yelled at me for half an hour and broke down crying. thats what i needed to snap out of it. maybe the op had recieved previous intervention that he didnt respond to. in todays day and age its easy to crucify every rov and RY, but the truth is that its the easy way to play the blame game. bite the bullet and snap out of it. its your life and dont let the fact that your mad cloud your shtayging. on a harsher note get over yourself jst a bit. people have been through this and worse. find someone older – in their forties or fifties that you can trust. younger people often seem like thew ones you want to talk to but i find that age = wisdom and experience, and they generally have less ulterior motives.

    #801709
    adorable
    Participant

    There is nothing you can do to change the way the situation was dealt with. you are a kid and you are only seeing one side of the coin. you dont see it affecting other in the class but you have no clue. from now on all you can do is change the way you continue in this situation that you are put into. I would suggest you speak to Rabbi wallerstein (as mentioned above- he gave me such simple clear advice that just made so much sense but I would never have thought about it on my own and that really was the beginning of the end to all my issues) and moving on. go to a yeshiva or some sort of learners-earners program and get into shape.

    #801710
    Hacham
    Member

    cantoresq: That’s a total myth. Rav Dessler’s exact words (from Michtav M’Eliyahu 3) is “One thousand students enter to study Mikra… and only one emerges to hora’ah” (halachic decision making). Nowhere has he ever said *anyone* is sacrificed.

    #801711
    MDG
    Participant

    For a translation of Rabbi Dessler, see this link:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-making-of-talmidei-chachomim

    It includes this line “It is better that 1000 fools die to obtain one genuine scholar.”

    #801712
    Moshe Kohn
    Member

    Hacham: I haven’t seen the piece of R’ Dessler in question, but the words that you quoted are not R’ Dessler’s. They are found in Midrash Vayikra Rabba 2, and quoted by Rashi in Koheles 7:28.

    #801713
    Health
    Participant

    Hacham -I don’t know what R. Dessler said, but your comment can’t be attibuted to him -Shlomah Hamelech said it.

    #801714
    Health
    Participant

    600 Kilo bear – “An MO school will not help because it will be too hard to adjust to a completely different framework for someone who has already had adjustment issues.”

    While your whole comments are based on what would be the best situation possible, you aren’t living in reality. Reality is most yeshivos will throw out for talking to girls. If somehow you can change this situation, by all means do it. Maybe you can start your own Yeshiva and have more lenient rules. The Frum Yeshivos that I know – won’t allow a boy to talk to girls.

    But my comments are based on reality – what is the best in the situation right now. If you want to say the lesser of two evils, fine. Is it better to hang out in the streets or go to a MO yeshiva, where there might be some adjustment issues?

    #801715
    Hacham
    Member

    MDG: That’s a quote from the Rambam. Nowhere, no place, has Rav Dessler or anyone suggested that any bochorim in the Yeshiva be sacrificed. The heavy price Rav Dessler refers to is that the intense Torah study in the Yeshivos mean many of the students aren’t cut out to put all their energies exclusively on Torah learning and would leave, and the Yeshiva *helped* those students who left to stay as bnei Torah in the workforce. (Except those that chose to go to University, which the Yeshivos cut off contact with, in order the university students should not negatively influence the Yeshiva students.) Nowhere does he suggest anyone be “sacrificed” c”v.

    #801717
    Toi
    Participant

    obviously a child raised in a certain hashkafic environment by his parents; with future education decisions made by his parents will not end up in an MO institution, because they probably dont want him talikg to girls. thats not really a solution; more like an admitted defeat. this kid needs a shoulder to cry on and then to man up and take control.

    #801720
    abcd2
    Participant

    re for above post whether the quote is a fool should die or student be sacrificed Why should we intimate that the writer of the post be categorized in such a hurtful manner? How do we know that he isn’t the one in 1000?

    Some of past and present Rabbonim and Gedolim were not exactly mistake or aveira free growing up. This person still has their whole life ahead of them conversely there are some top boys in high school who peter out as life goes on.

    As long as there is a will to succeed and do right on the part of the bachur he will come out on top in the end.

    Boruch Hashem life does not end at 17

    #801721
    MDG
    Participant

    Hacham,

    According to that translation (from the earlier thread), the last line seems to clearly imply that some are to be sacrificed.

    Look at that thread, where I commented that – from a web search – the Rambam did NOT say that. See the link that I posted, which included the sources.

    #801724
    Hacham
    Member

    MDG: The point of Rav Dessler was his quote of Vayikra Rabbah 2:1: “One thousand students enter to study Mikra… and only one emerges to hora’ah.” That the Yeshiva system was designed to give that 1 in 1,000 student the ability to become a godol b’yisroel. That unless the Yeshiva system was as demanding as it was, that 1 in 1,000 wouldn’t become the godol he could. And we need those gedolim.

    cantoresq: Rav Dessler point was not that the other 999 will become poor am ha’aratzim c”v. Rav Dessler specifically pointed out that the Roshei Yeshivos would do all they could for the other 999 to remain bnei Torah. (He wrote: “They tried as best they could to help those who could not remain in the yeshiva as bnei Torah.”) A ben Torah is in no way, shape, or form an am ha’aretz.

    #801725
    ootinny
    Member

    Yentemonkey I really wish you much hatzlacha, and I know a lot of people that were able to pull thru in similar situations, and I think you can as well. You just have to believe in yourself, and take one step at a time and you can soon be a real Yirei Shamayim and make Hashem very proud. All the little things you do are very important and don’t get discouraged the way people look at you or judge you. You have to answer to Hashem at the end of the day, not anyone else, and Hashem knows where you’re holding spritually. And I definitely hear where your resentment is coming from and I personally wish I could change the entire yeshiva system. Don’t forget to ask Hashem for help!

    #801727
    Hacham
    Member

    cantoresq: Because they would require a University level education, which will bring along with it those negative influences that would affect both the individual as well as those who he is associated with.

    #801728
    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    yentemonkey; you are totally right in your sentiment.

    Not every Mechanech in the field should be honored w/ that title.

    Many unfortunately are undeserving of the title just as their

    students are undeserving of being under such empty-headed, short-sighted, insensitive, inexperienced people who regretfully managed to infiltrate the Holy World of Chinuch, not being worthy of the great responsibilities or the task.

    I’m happy your resentment was placed were it should be placed,

    on the system, not on our religion.

    Since you are now aware of this, please use your knowledge and experience to try to get involved in the future with helping the

    holy neshamas of our youth rise up out of darkness and despair

    to the great heights they were born to achieve.

    May HB”H bless you and all of our Klal Yisroel with enormous success in all our endeavors may they all be holy and pure.

    #801729
    deiyezooger
    Member

    “Once a Rav brought another rav to meet with the Chofetz Chaim , and the Chofetz Chaim threw the second rav out. As the Chofetz Chaim was not known to act this way. The came back a second time and he threw them out again.

    The came back a third time and before he could throw them out, The 2nd rav (The one who was thrown out) asked, Why do you throw me out.

    The Chofetz Chaim asked him do you remember Lev Bronstein. The rav answered. YES I do. I had to throw him out of the yeshiva..

    The Chofetz Chaim told him that Lev Bronstein was now Leon Trotsky head of the Bolshevik Revolution”

    But that melamed didn’t trow the kid out because of bad behavior, he refused to learn with the kid because his mother was a poor widow who couldn’t pay for him.

    #801730
    Sam2
    Participant

    That story cannot be true. Trotsky’s family was never religious and his parents sent him away to Odessa to get an education at the age of 9.

    #801731
    mommamia22
    Participant

    Yentemonkey

    Trying to heal through blaming the menahel is not going to work. You need to figure out how you’re going to let this affect your life. You’re acting out your anger and sending a message (“oh, yeah? You thought I was bad then?”) by hanging out with the wrong crowd now. The people you would’ve liked to have listened to your outcry have stopped listening. If you feel others let you down, you need to, at the very least, be a friend to yourself. I failed first period two semesters straight in ninth grade because I could never get to school on time. I was 13 and traveling on my own for the first time in my life. I was a latchkey kid, and no one noticed. I had horrible grades, and nearly failed out if high school. It was only later, when I went to seminary and college that I began to care. Going through a rough period is just that; a period. How would you like to see yourself? Forget about what everybody else wants for you and from you. If what you want contradicts what others say is good for you, then find an authority figure (and I know that will be hard after such a major one in your life let you down) and speak. Ask all those questions, discuss all your doubts, talk about your needs and how you don’t know how to make it work with Yiddishkeit. There are people who love to talk to teens who are struggling and to help them. You have to decide what you want to make of this. Look at the kids from the ghetto who have so much anger and never take responsibility to try to make their lives better. My dad has a companion who grew up this way, fighting and angry. He decided he wanted more for himself and is now putting himself through school. He could have crumbled and been a thug and justified it by saying that’s what life threw at him. Instead, he chose to focus on how he can rise above the difficulties.

    #801732
    Health
    Participant

    Toi -“thats not really a solution; more like an admitted defeat. this kid needs a shoulder to cry on and then to man up and take control.”

    It depends on how you look at it. Granted the kid should have worked on himself, but isn’t now a little too late as far as yeshivos go? He has already been thrown out. Once you’re thrown out, it’s almost impossible to get into a regular Yeshiva nowadays. This reminds me of a Moshol from the C.C. -A kid was selling apples in the street. A thief came along and started grabbing apples, so the boy started crying. An adult there said stop crying and grab what you can for yourself. I think the CC uses this by -if s/o is at the end of Shmoneh Esray and didn’t have Kavanah till then, you should at least have Kavanah for the last part. But it could be applied to many things.

    So what do you think is better to hang out in the streets or go to a MO yeshiva?

    #801733
    MiddlePath
    Participant

    OP, I agree with many of the posters here that we don’t really know the impact or lack of impact had on your classmates, since that is something not always shown on the surface. I personally have certain views on the topic of communication between boys and girls that aren’t quite in line with some people’s views here, but that doesn’t change the fact that a school rule was broken. But, I do think that in general, a Principal or Rabbi in a school should really think carefully before making a decision that can possible change a student’s life, because they may be held responsible in heaven for their decision.

    Concerning something else brought up here, I don’t think going to an MO school will solve anything. If anything, it’ll make things worse, both for this student, and fellow classmates. I PERSONALLY know of so many kids from more religious schools who were expelled, went to more modern schools, and ended in far worse trouble, and caused other classmates to stumble, eventually giving the class, and even the entire school, a bad name.

    I think MO schools should NOT accept students who were expelled from more religious schools. There are schools specially made for students like that in most large cities.

    But of course, my opinion on this is simply based on what I saw. So if people disagree with me, that is perfectly fine, because they may have seen things work out differently, and I understand that.

    May you find your path back to G-d quickly and easily.

    #801734
    kb248
    Member

    i know how you feel but going through life and blaming other people for everything(even if they are wrong)will get you no where.life is not smooth but rather full of challenges. Our job is to overcome those challenges and grow as a person from them.I hear your story and i totally agree with you,but your just ruining your own life because of other peoples mistakes. Do you enjoy living on the streets like a bum,obviously not.The people you are with are not helping you in any way rather they are just dragging you down to their messed up life style.You would admit yourself that your just doing this to rebel, and you don’t like where you are heading,but is it worth it ruin your life just because of one thing that happened. think about where you will be standing in 5 years from now if you continue like this. and i hope that you realize yourself you made a mistake and learn from it as soon as possible. my best wishes to you and your “friends”.Good luck

    #801735
    Toi
    Participant

    go find a learning earning thing. or do daf yomi and work. dont impart foreign hashkafos just to be in an institution.

    #801736

    Adjustment issues is a polite way of saying that the MO school won’t work out either which means back to square one.

    It has happened in almost every instance I know of where someone tried that route – and the end result was complete OTD.

    MO is a completely different world. Just the more rigorous secular studies program would cause more problems for a bochur coming from a regular yeshiva. So would the social order.

    In any case the point is moot. No MO school is going to accept a new student for senior year (age 17) and there is no more time to even try because classes start the week after next.

    Advice to the OP – contact Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz for advice. I think he has contact info on his website. Forget the kibitzers here :). Hatzlocho!

    Not the Trotsky story AGAIN!

    1) He had two parents.

    2) He was never frum.

    Inaccurate stories like that end up leading people astray.

    #801739
    Health
    Participant

    MP -“this student, and fellow classmates. I PERSONALLY know of so many kids from more religious schools who were expelled, went to more modern schools, and ended in far worse trouble, and caused other classmates to stumble, eventually giving the class, and even the entire school, a bad name.”

    I was recommending what is good for the student, not necessarily the school.

    “I think MO schools should NOT accept students who were expelled from more religious schools. There are schools specially made for students like that in most large cities.”

    Granted I can agree with this statement, but there aren’t that many of these types of schools. If every city/town had enough, you wouldn’t have so many of these kids in the street. Also, a lot of these schools aren’t really schools, more like places for them to be – where they can learn a little, work a little and hang out.

    I personally think, it really depends on whether the kid is on the way up or down. If he/she is on the way up, a MO school with structure would be the most beneifcial. On the other hand, if the kid is on the way down, they will cause damage to the MO school, like you said.

    #801740
    Health
    Participant

    600 Kilo Bear -“In any case the point is moot. No MO school is going to accept a new student for senior year (age 17) and there is no more time to even try because classes start the week after next.”

    In this particular case, you’re probably right, but I see no harm in trying. And if getting into a MO school is hard at this point, can you imagine trying to get him into a regular Yeshiva now?!?

    “Adjustment issues is a polite way of saying that the MO school won’t work out either which means back to square one.

    It has happened in almost every instance I know of where someone tried that route – and the end result was complete OTD.

    MO is a completely different world. Just the more rigorous secular studies program would cause more problems for a bochur coming from a regular yeshiva. So would the social order.”

    Like I just posted to MP, it really depends which direction the kid is going. If he wants to be given a second chance and is upset with his behavior, a more rigorous program will help him excel and build his self-esteem. If on the other hand, they are on they way down, then you’re correct he will become OTD and possibly bring others along. This is when you need to get the kid professional help or into one of these “schools” made for guys like this!

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