Opposite Gender Friendships

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  • #592647

    Sacrilege
    Member

    Is it ok for SHIDDUCH AGED males and females to be friends with each other?

    (The reason I stress Shidduch Age is because I feel Teens sometimes get swept up in the excitement of talking to someone of the opposite gender that they just don’t think clearly all together)

    #795856

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Google ladder theory.

    #795857

    Ben Torah
    Participant

    Sacrilege – It is assur M’DORAISA for males and females to be friends with each other.

    #795858

    WIY
    Member

    Sacrilege

    No its not ok, you can very easily get into “trouble” especially if you have feelings for each other and there’s no shmirah because its not a shidduchim context so there’s nothing stopping you.

    #795859

    Sacrilege
    Member

    I’m aware of that Theory.

    In a case where you both ARENT interested in each other.

    I am 5’9 he is 5’2. Not going to happen. What then?

    #795860

    bpt
    Participant

    (speaking as a yeshiva-rooted person)

    Freinds as in hello / goodbye? That’s ok. Friends as in I’ve got an extra ticket to a ball game, wanna come? No, that’s not ok.

    Either date, or don’t

    #795861

    real-brisker
    Member

    No!

    #795862

    HaQer
    Member

    “I’m aware of that Theory.

    In a case where you both ARENT interested in each other.

    I am 5’9 he is 5’2. Not going to happen. What then?”

    You obviously don’t understand the theory. No woman understands it. But it is basicly true. Yes- even among frum men.

    #795863

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    It depends on a lot of things.

    #795864

    It depends on how much risk you like to take. If you’re the type of person who would go swimming with sharks because you’re pretty sure they won’t take a limb off. Well then you might be inclined to take the chance.

    For the rest of us that don’t enjoy having our limbs surgically sutured onto our bodies, I wouldn’t recommend it.

    #795865

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes, that is the beauty of the theory; women will never understand it no matter how many times we try to explain it.

    #795866

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I’m sorry to say but Popa is right

    Listen to R’ Orlofsky’s shmooze on “Platonic Relationships” you can access it online

    #795867

    mormat
    Member

    R Moshe, in Even Haezer Chelek Daled Siman Samech, writes that it’s Asur & probably involves a number of Isurei D’oraisa.

    #795868

    Toi
    Participant

    women do not get it. over. and they can’t. the same way we don’t get them

    #795869

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Sacrilege – It is assur M’DORAISA for males and females to be friends with each other.

    My wife is my best friend. Last time I checked, I was male and she was female.

    I guess we’re just sinners. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #795871

    Girls may be able to be friends with boys , but trust me when i say men can’t be freinds with girls….

    #795872

    flowers
    Participant

    Sacrilege: Derech HaMelech’s words may seem overly dramatic, but he is 100% correct.

    #795873

    If you notice in davening by P’Sukei D’zimrah that we say every morning: Zekeinim IM ne’arim, bachurim VGAM besulos- That word VGAM separates the two whereas by the zekeinim and nearim it can be connected.

    #795874

    Interesting how not one man here seems to disagree with the theory. I guess that should say something.

    #795875

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Many years ago I did have a female plutonic friend, There was no interst on my end of anything.

    My main regret was when I met her (now ex-) husband. As a male friend I was able to size him down and figure out something really bad that maybe a female who was excited to get engaged could not see

    I was able to size that this guy had an issue keeping a job. I kept my mouth shut and didnt say anything as I did not want to ruin her shidduch and unfortunatly I discovered I was right.

    #795876

    Pac-Man
    Member

    zsdad: Frankly you sound jealous of his pending marriage to “your” so-called “plutonic” gf. It’s not your place to “size him down”.

    Like the Rabbonim said, there’s no such thing as “platonic” when boys and girls are friends.

    #795877

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Not at all. Actually I had gone out with her once and wasnt interested

    Like any friend one should try to help friends.

    Actually it was my place to size him up, I would do it for any friend in order to prevent a mistake, my mistake was not expressing my misgivings about the guy.

    I will now give any woman my opinions of a man if I am asked and I will give me honest opinions.

    #795878

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    female plutonic friend

    You had a friend from Pluto?? (Let me guess, she gave you the cold shoulder?? 🙂 )

    The Wolf

    #795879

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Women are from Venus not Pluto

    #795880

    RedNails19
    Participant

    No, It is NOT ok to be friends witht he opposite gender.

    Im saying this from a “yeshivish” BY point of veiw, the “modern” accepted way, and even shidduchim scene wise- it DOES not make it ok- I have many friends that do hang/are friends (“plutonic”) with the other gender and it NEVER ends well- and is not something I would condone.

    Im not here to tell anyone what to do but thats my strong opinion.

    Last year I was a shiur counselor in a more “open-minded” girls camp where the girls did hang out with guys and honestly did not know much of the halachot of shomer negia/yichud etc…but there was a mashal I told them that can VERY much be applicable here.

    Your in a the park, and you want to go on the water ride. So, you go up to the top and your going down the slide but in your head you decided- im just going on the ride but im not going to fall into the big pool at the end of the ride. So, what do you do- how do you stop yourself while your sliding downstream?

    So the girls gave answers-

    “you hold on to the side of the slide and try to get yourself up and off the ride”

    so I asked them “What are the chances of you not making it to the top and falling down into the water?”

    they answered “theres a 98% chance you will fall in.”

    So I explained- you want to go out with boys- its fun, you have a great time- just like the water ride..but you say to yourself; dont worry- im going to be careful I’m not going to do things I shouldnt (ex: not being shomer) and I’ll be ok; were just friends.

    But the chances of that happening are usually 98%! 98%- and are you willing to take that chance- that 2% chance of doing something you could have avoided all togteher…and so on…Even in our “big” mature adult world- WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL and we have to set gedarim; it doesnt mean you cant say “hello” “good-Bye” and be menshlach- but it doesnt mean you have to be friends either- Is it really a risk worth taking?

    #795881

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    “You had a friend from Pluto??”

    “Women are from Venus not Pluto”

    I honestly think the discussion of where in the solar system female humans come from is much more interesting and helpful than the discussion of whether one can have friends of the opposite gender.

    #795882

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Women are from Venus

    Ah, maybe that explains why they always feel like they’re under so much pressure. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #795883

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Ah, maybe that explains why they always feel like they’re under so much pressure. 🙂

    The Wolf

    Thanks for making me smile 🙂

    #795884

    RedNails- Very well said. The goyishe world is just so loose that it takes courage and strength to uphold the holy. My wife uses books by Gila Manalson (i.e- The Magic Touch) to teach youngsters, teens, unaffiliated adults, etc. about the dangers of a loose society and the ultimate beauty of upholding the kedusha.

    One needs only to skim Pikei Avos to see the many things said about these topics….May Hashem see our desire to fight and take us out of the 49th level of tuma we find ourselves in (again!) bimheira b’yameinu, amen.

    #795885

    pumper
    Member

    rednails-

    that is a great mashal! Kudos for sharing it!

    #795886

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    My wife is my best friend. Last time I checked, I was male and she was female.

    I guess we’re just sinners. 🙂

    Well, apparently, it is only assur for males and females to be friends with each other, but one on one should be okay (at least if you’re married). ?

    #795887

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    I guess I’ll be burning:)

    #795888

    RedNails19
    Participant

    Thanks KIsh Echad BLev Echad & pumper!!

    #795889

    GeshmakMan
    Participant

    The Ladder theory is blocked my my firewall at work, but from experience in the “Chinuch/Social” world, there is NO such thing as a plutonic relationship between Boy/Man and Girl/Woman

    Never Never ever

    #795890

    this is getting ridiculous:

    its pl A tonic, not pl U tonic

    #795891

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    GeshmakMan: You are correct. There is no such thing as a plutonic relationship. However, there is a platonic relationship:)

    #795892

    bpt
    Participant

    The ladder theory was too complicated for me to follow, but the waterslide pretty much summed it up.

    In “friendship situations” women think with their emotions and intellect, men think with neither.

    Play it safe and keep it distant, unless you really want to date for tachlis. Otherwise, someone is bound to get hurt.

    #795893

    GeshmakMan
    Participant

    either way – they both don’t exist!

    #795894

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    its pl A tonic, not pl U tonic

    You know, some of us don’t use tonic at all. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #795895

    student
    Participant

    I was just wondering,where in the Torah does it say it’s asur to for a man and woman to be friends?

    #795897

    EzratHashem
    Member

    The way it appears to me, in the MO world this is not even a question mostly. They have largely adopted the view of the secular world regarding the permissability of cross gender friendships.

    #795898

    Homeowner
    Member

    Does anyone here have a job? Are you friendly with anyone at work?

    #795899

    shlishi
    Member

    Being “friendly” and being “friends” are two different things. The former is to be commended; the latter to be censured (in the context of opposite genders).

    #795900

    student- Shlomis Bas Divri ended up with an Egyptian man because she was friendly and said hello to everyone, which is why she was known as bas DIVRI (as in dibbur, speech) She was the only casulty in mitzrayim and that’s why the Torah publicized it.

    Homeowner- With all due respect, one can be friendly and greet everyone with a smile, be polite, and just take care of his/her job at work but I was always told that in the workplace one should not refer to the opposite gender by their first name, because that breeds closeness. It’s Ms., Mrs., or Mr. So-and-so. In today’s day and age one has to be even more careful. There’s too much closeness in the workplace that can, G-d forbid lead to marriage issues. I’ve heard countless stories, unfortunately that I’d rather not share…..

    #795901

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    I have dozens of Talmidim who are living proof that even if they thought it can be done in theory……… it cannot be done in practical life. The mishna warns against it and the Mishna is timeless. Al Tarbeh Sicha Im Haisha.

    Rabbi Orlofskys theory is right on. I just heard it live and women met with him to ask how he understands them so well…..

    Ish and Isha without the Shchina is FIRE!!! Aish. Only foolish people or Big Baalei Gaavah play with fire.

    The Mishna says we must be ever vigilant….. do not trust yourself until the day you leave this world. A Kohain Gadol changed after serving 80 years!!! Can we invite Yetzer Horah and then trust ourselves to beat him??? I have enough trouble fending him off when he comes uninvited,

    BTW, 5-9 and 5-2. is it unheard of??? I know a few happily married couples where she is significantly taller and he is not blind!

    Hatzlacha in Tahara and Kedusha!

    #795902

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    student:

    I was just wondering,where in the Torah does it say it’s asur to for a man and woman to be friends?

    Vayikra 18:6 and 18:19

    I think that covers all married and single women over Bas Mitzvah

    #795903

    mod,

    thats talking about family members or niddahs, where do u see about other women??

    #795904

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Hmmm. I assume that there is an issur of lo sikrivu by Eishes Ish. Though you seem to be right that it doesn’t fall under “sh’er bisaro” or nidda. I can definitely see it m’svara though we need a pasuk.

    It’s been awhile since I learned meseches Yevamos so I can’t remember all the limudim but I’m pretty sure that we learn all issurei erva from each other.

    Maybe Joseph can help us out

    #795905

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Rav Moshe Feinstein: Prohibition of social dating

    “There is also a severe prohibition from the Torah in close friendships between a young man and woman.”

    #795906

    not disagreeing that its definitely assur to be friends, but those pesukim may not be the actual source

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