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  • This topic contains 67 replies, has 30 voices, and was last updated by  Jothar 10 years ago.
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  • #590836

    azi
    Participant

    There was a story about the Women of the Wall group on YNet today which in turn was published on another site. The second sites article had almost 200 comment posts, most of them similar in style and tone. What the writers mostly agreed on is their view of Orthodox Jews. Here are some examples:

    “Almost everything I’ve read about them makes them out to be mean and arrogant”

    ” there are pockets of sanity, you should research the Chabad/Lubavitch movement”

    “Orthodox jews generally are exempt from service, primarily because they (well, a significant minority of them) tend to riot if they don’t get what they want”

    I can’t say I disagree with their sentiments.

    #669068

    haifagirl
    Participant

    Well, there’s a lesson for us to learn. We have to remember that the world is watching us, and even the smallest triviality can be blown way out of proportion. We have to remember that’s it’s not enough not to make a chillul Hashem, but we have to go out of our way to make a kiddush Hashem.

    #669069

    MaKesher
    Member

    What??!!! I don’t understand who these examples are talking about. Are they talking about the group or are they talking about the Orthodox Jews, and what was the general tone of the comments, I didn’t quite understand that either.

    Have a good Shabbos 🙂

    #669070

    Getzel
    Participant

    Let”s face the fact if you look at Klall Yisroel with dark glasses you will go in Ynets footsteps and find dirt.

    But if you will go and were the Kedushas Levis-Barditshivar ravs glasses you will see only good in klall Yisroel.

    The fact is there isn’t a nicer nation than Klall Yisroel.

    What do Non Jews and Secular people do regualy? you name it evry sin steal adultry etc…..

    The Jews are in Golus with these people do you expect them not to learn from their bad deeds?

    Open any Orthdox Jewish phone book check the Chesed and Gemach listings. then ask all the pople posting comments anti Frum if they ever did any good act, they most probbly will have to think hard.

    How much Tzedakah is given out by the Orthodox Jews? Greedy-NO WAY

    So azi wake up smell the coffe!!

    #669071

    azi, Read getzel’s comment carefully it would do you well. If you still say “I can’t say I disagree with their sentiments”, adios.

    #669072

    Jothar
    Member

    Jews are hated the world over. Orthodox Jews are the Jews’ Jews.

    I do agree that the chillulei Hashem caused by a handful of ***** have soiled our reputation.

    But as someone who lives in an Orthodox community full of chessed, Torah, and good middos, lets just say I fully disagree with their comments.

    EDITED

    #669073

    Just-a-guy
    Member

    Getzel1 wrote:

    “What do Non Jews and Secular people do regualy? you name it evry sin steal adultry etc…..

    The Jews are in Golus with these people do you expect them not to learn from their bad deeds?

    Open any Orthdox Jewish phone book check the Chesed and Gemach listings. then ask all the pople posting comments anti Frum if they ever did any good act, they most probbly will have to think hard”

    It could reasonably said that these statements display the mean and arrogant attitude that the original poster refers to. If someone mistakenly (and it is mistakenly) thinks you’re mean and arrogant, you don’t disprove them by shouting that in fact you are better than everyone else and everyone else is a sinner.

    #669074

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    One should remember that Ynet is an Israeli site, and many people in Israel (correctly or not) view Charaidim (not Orthodox, what they would call Dati) as people who sit and contribute nothing to society, take their tax shekels, blackmail the government, and most of all, don’t serve in the army and would mostly prefer an Arab government.

    I think the comments would be directed at any seeming “Fifth column”, deserving or not.

    #669075

    justaguy, The obvious difference between what azi quoted and what getzel1 wrote, is that the former is sheker while the latter is Emes. As much as you may or may not like the Emes, it doesn’t make it a “mean and arrogant attitude.”

    #669076

    Just-a-guy
    Member

    Emes or not, you don’t get someone to see that it is emes by yelling emes, emes, emes!

    #669078

    Rochelle
    Member

    Just-a-guy: You dont need to yell emes- emes- emes… but as they say – dee emes shtecht…

    #669079

    To translate Rochelle for our English speaking brethren (not zoicha to the mamme loshon): “The truth hurts.”

    #669080

    aryeh3
    Participant

    The story was about some Conservative Jewish women who would wrap tefillin and wear tzitzit and conduct prayer services at the Kotel. My understanding is that they were asked to go daven somewhere nearby, since they were causing a disturbance for the regular minyanim at the Kotel. Some of these women forced the issue and ended up getting the police involved, and then the news media reported an arrest.

    The Kotel is controlled by an Orthodox rabbinate, who do not recognize the Conservative Movement’s egalitarian minhag. This is what this is about. The secular Israeli society (whom YNET represents) judges the Orthodox halacha as oppressive towards women, and views all Orthodox Jews as backward and chauvinistic.

    IMO, this is not a problem of rude, arrogant or other negative behavior by Orthodox Jews, but is a clash of values between religious and secular segments of Israeli society.

    #669081

    Feif Un
    Participant

    getzel1:

    Do you really think those things don’t occur in the “frum” world also? Guess what: they do. There happen to be many honest people who aren’t Orthodox Jews. There are also many low-lives who consider themselves Orthodox Jews (although they’re obviously not – you can’t be a low-life and be a frum Jew).

    The problem is that because we’re supposed to set an example, people expect more from us. It also draws more attention when someone slips. It’s the old case of man bites dog.

    #669084

    azi
    Participant

    @getzel1:

    I dont want any glasses to spin my view of things. I like to look at things with my naked eyes.

    All of your points are nice and fine but it doesnt matter much when people on the outside see us exactly the opposite. What you think doesnt matter, its what they see. Meaning your response isnt a good argument because it doesnt properly counter their claims.

    #669086

    pookie
    Member

    sometimes we forget that we have to act normal in public (ex. saying kiddush lavanah smack in middle of the street)

    #669087

    Jothar
    Member

    Azi, someone I know ( a relative) just made a wedding on the quick because the kallah’s father was very sick with cancer. The entire community pitched in to help make it happen.

    People are always looking for reasons to hate Orthodox Jews because they make the irreligious feel guilty just by their existence. We shouldn’t give people ammunition with senseless acts of violence, but the good is quite easily there. If you wipe the dirt and self-loathing off your glasses you will be able to see the good as well.

    #669089

    MaKesher
    Member

    Hear Hear! I don’t think we are patting ourselves on the back. Most of us know that we’re not perfect and we’re supposed to be doing something about that imperfection. But we definately shouldn’t think that we’re better than anyone else, because we’re just as bad or even worse than another person in some area that you might think is totally easy for you. This is what nekudat habachira is and its different for each and every person no matter how frum oo close to intermarriage and complete annihilation that you may be at at the presnt time.

    #669090

    Getzel
    Participant

    OK so you guys want me to tackle this head on here i go.

    Azi wrote that he does not know what to answer to these things, well i do

    “Almost everything I’ve read about them makes them out to be mean and arrogant”

    Ha ha – Lets check this one out, ask any non Jew or orthodox Jew how many languages he can speak most can only speak one, Orthodox Jews can usually speak between 2-4.

    How many Non orthodox can list you Jewish history from 2000 years ago? so you will say it”s just that they don”t care, but i”ll call that on their part arrogant.

    Enter any Shul you got A few Talmidei Chachamim,[or call it Rabbi with a doctrine in Jewish law, History etc.] a few Doctors a few Lawyers a couple of accountants Computer programmers etc. etc..

    <NO I DON”T CALL THAT ARROGANT>

    You further wrote:

    “Orthodox jews generally are exempt from service, primarily because they (well, a significant minority of them) tend to riot if they don’t get what they want”

    About the army, The main question is Why do we need an army if None of the leaders know what Israel needs to be ?

    If Israel is like any other state, why do you need to stay in this land surrounded by many Arabs countries ?

    Why are they not going to another place in the world ?

    Why this land is more to Israelis than to the Palestinians ?

    Sometimes, we need to go to Lebanon

    but for WHAT ?

    We are here to create a very unique country.

    About the orthodox contribution: What can you say about Hatzolah ? Zaka ? Meir Panim ? Ezra Lamarpeh ? Ezer Letsion ? the Laniado Hospital in Netanya ? all the gmahims ? and all the others very big organizations who are helping EVERY DAY ALL KIND of Israelis !

    I think that they are contributing more to the country than the whole IDF !

    Azi You just need to turn off your TV.

    #669091

    Getzel
    Participant

    Just another note about the above article mentioned in the orignal post

    Forget the whole CNN vs FOX vs MSNBC debate. We have our own headline battles, though more subtle.

    The woman detained was interviewed by the Jpost:

    Frenkel said that as the women unrolled the Torah scroll and began to prepare to read, officials from the Kotel Foundation arrived and demanded that they leave the premises.

    Frenkel said that the women agreed to roll up the Torah scroll and take it to the Robinsons Arch. But on their way out Frenkel, who was wearing a talit and was carrying the Torah, was seized by police.

    I was pushed into a nearby police station and transferred to the main police station at Yaffo Gate, she said.

    About 40 women who attended the prayer formed a procession and followed the police and Frenkel through the Old City to the Yaffo Gate where they congregated and sang songs until Frenkel was released.

    The Jewish headlines are helping to divide an already divided people desperate for some kind of unity to face external threats.

    #669092

    azi
    Participant

    EDITED

    I didnt write that i dont know how to responde to those comments, what i wrote was that i agree with them.

    I honestly tried reading through your EDITED here, but I dont know what your point is. the first half seems to confirm the first comment i quoted. You are very EDITED and EDITED.

    EDITED but that should not transilate into your behavior and how you treat people.

    Secondly, you’re saying something about Israel. The comment has nothing to do woth Israel vs Palestine. It was just that Jews riot in the streets of Jerusalem when they dont get their way.

    As far as your TV comment, that just is an example of the EDITED that that make non Jews so turned off by frum Jews. You’re EDITED and EDITED. You probaby EDITED. And if you dont employ one than all I can say is baruch hashem, because EDITED.

    #669093

    starwolf
    Member

    To say that the Hareidi charities “are contributing more to the country than the whole IDF” ignores a number of things. Furthermore, charities like Ezer Letzion are not supported only by Hareidim. You post about Hatzolah and Zaka as if they are the only organizations of their type. Have a look around.

    First of all, Laniado hospital. there are plenty of hospitals not under Hareidi auspices that service all clal Yisrael as well, and the same can be said for all the nonHareidi charities as well. Hareidim and datiim in general are not the only ones that contribute to charity.

    In any event–no charity work is more of a contribution than service in the IDF. They are two different concepts. Like it or not, the Jews in Israel are under threat of attack. Hareidim as well as chilonim. The youth in Israel that serve in the IDF do so whether or not they agree with the policies of the current government, as it is recognized by all but the most obtuse that self-defense comes before any particular political orientation. These people literally risk their lives–and you think that performing charity work contributes “more to the country than the whole IDF”? Tell that to the parents whose children have paid with their lives to defend clal Yisrael. Keep in mind that those children do shmira at machsomim near towns like Emmanuel and Beitar– which are exclusively Hareidi towns.

    EDITED

    #669096

    Jothar
    Member

    Azi, there’s a difference between saying klal yisroel has flaws they need to work on and agreeing with every canard posted on an irreligious website. I agree 100% that one shouldn’t be complacent in his yiddishkeit, and that if one isn’t growing then he’s regressing. That’s not the implication of your post.

    #669098

    oomis
    Participant

    Whew!!!! Do you truly believe that? My Bubby never formally learned Torah in her life, and I guarantee you she was a very pious, religiously-observant woman, who raised two frum children, after being widowed at a young age. It may not be possible to know all the halachos without learning Torah many hours a day, but that is why we have Rabbanim of which to ask shailas. My husband is a Baal Teshuvah of over thirty-six years, and he has never sat in Yeshivah for many hours a day at any time. He is a VERY Torah-observant Jew. Your statement is not 100% accurate, though we do believe that an am haaretz cannot be a chosid. However anyone who has a rudimentary knowledge of kashrus, shmiras Shabbos, and hilchos Taharas Hamishpacha, all of which can be learned in sufficient amounts without ever learning for several hours a day, can be a shomer Torah u’mitzvos. It is not, as you say, IMPOSSIBLE.

    #669099

    azi
    Participant

    getzel1,

    I submitted a response to your post but one of the moderators, the great defenders of our faith, sitting in a basement somewhere reading all our thoughts, decided that your argument should go unchallenged. You truly have some important friends in high places.

    Well, azi, your logic got to me. So the post you speak of has been undeleted. All the readers of this thread can now read your challenge to his argument. They might also get an idea of why you started this thread. I did delete most of the insults though.

    #669100

    mybat
    Member

    oomis, maybe times have changed since your husband has become religious? I also know many people who are very shomer torah and mitzvot and they don’t learn for many hours a day. But let’s not forget that the generations are getting lower.

    #669102

    000646
    Participant

    GETZEL1 Said,

    “Ha ha – Lets check this one out, ask any non Jew or orthodox Jew how many languages he can speak most can only speak one, Orthodox Jews can usually speak between 2-4.

    How many Non orthodox can list you Jewish history from 2000 years ago? so you will say it”s just that they don”t care, but i”ll call that on their part arrogant.

    Enter any Shul you got A few Talmidei Chachamim,[or call it Rabbi with a doctrine in Jewish law, History etc.] a few Doctors a few Lawyers a couple of accountants Computer programmers etc. etc..

    NO I DON”T CALL THAT ARROGANT”

    …. um Sir do you know what arrogant means? here are a couple definitions 1 overbearingly assuming; 2 insolently proud: as in “an arrogant public official.” How on earth does what you wrote above demonstrate the chareidim arnt arrogant?

    Getzel also wrote,

    “About the army, The main question is Why do we need an army if None of the leaders know what Israel needs to be ?”

    Well one of the main reasons you need an army there is because wether you like it or not without one (bderech hatava) the arabs would pore into israel and kill as many jews as they could. If this is the fault of the zionists who lived 100 years ago or not is really beside the point.

    #669104

    A Jew learning Torah L’shmo does more for Klal Yisroel than all the IDF.

    #669105

    oomis
    Participant

    I don’t agree, mybat, that the generations are getting lower. The move to the right has been in greater numbers than ever before in the last 100 years. More boys AND girls are learning in Yeshivah from the time they enter nursery school. Unprecedented numbers of high school graduates are going to learn for more than one year in E”Y, and most of the boys continue at least half (if not most of)a day in Beis Medrash. There are more kollel boys than ever before, and a substantial number of them comes from homes that would be considered more modern. I feel the generations have gotten to a madreiga that is anything BUT lower. Yes, there are problems, but there have ALWAYS been problems from the times of the Avos and Emahos.

    #669106

    oomis
    Participant

    MM, that is a lovely thought, but I would rather you had said that a Jew learning l’shmo does as much for klal Yisroel as the IDF. It is insulting to the IDF, many of whom are frum yidden who learn Torah regularly, to diminish their contribution and self-sacrifice, literally mesiras hanefesh, to ensure the safety of those Jews who are learning in E”Y l’shmo. If Hashem wanted us to believe that learning alone is worth more than defense of E”Y, then why do you think He would have sent Am Yisroel into any milchemes mitzvah or milchemes reshus? I believe both aspects are crucial to E”Y’s survival, and the Israeli soldier is to be strongly appreciated for the risks that are taken on behalf of others. Those who especially need to be makir tov to them are those of us who second guess Israel at every turn, from the safety of our homes here in the USA.

    #669109

    oomis1105-Your Grandmother may not have formally learned out of a sefer, but she definitly learned Torah experiantially-and by living it. That’s how most women learned that which they needed to for centuries in order to preserve klal yisroel-and until the Bais Yaakov movement.

    If someone is not educated with authentic Torah values then their perception of “Orthodox” Jews can not be accurate, because they are not taking an honest look into what it means to be a a Torah true Jew. If these people who voice their disdain about Orthodox Jews would spend a full week in a frum ehrliche yid’s home, they surely would walk away amazed at how we conduct our lives. It’s a lot easier, and much less guilt ridden to not look at what is emes, and to judge Torah Judaism by those who they wish to judge and not on the Torah’s terms. If they would, it would obligate them, get to their essence and conscience and that would be too overwhelming.

    #669110

    Feif Un
    Participant

    positiveaynayim: Maybe that’s the problem these days. Yes, people spend plenty of time learning, but not enough time living. They don’t put what they learn into practice.

    #669111

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    A Jew learning Torah L’shmo does more for Klal Yisroel than all the IDF.

    That may be true. Nonetheless, ain somchin al hanes…

    The Wolf

    #669112

    Moe Green
    Member

    A Jew learning Torah L’shmo does more for Klal Yisroel than all the IDF.

    And a Jew learning Torah lishmo does more for Klal Yisroel than all the baalei battim combined.

    But the baalei battim are still the ones who are to be thanked for providing for the Jew learning Torah, and for paying for the Torah education of his children. Similarly, the IDF is to be thanked for the security of the inhabitants of the country – irregardless of whether or not their success is due to all the Torah learning that their service enables.

    Sounds fair – the IDF protects the country, enabling Jews to learn in relative peace, which in turn enables the success of the IDF. Should be a perfect relationship.

    #669113

    corleones
    Member

    Hey Moe,

    I thought we took you out

    #669114

    mosherose
    Member

    “That may be true. Nonetheless, ain somchin al hanes…”

    Except that the fact that learning protects is not a nes – its perfectly natural according to the world that Hashem created.

    #669115

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Mosherose,

    Why didn’t learning protect us from the Crusaders, the Cossacks, the pogroms and the holocaust?

    #669116

    mosherose
    Member

    Obviously we werent learning enough.

    #669117

    g73
    Member

    Mosherose,

    Who wasn’t learning enough to protect us from the crusaders? Rabbienu Tam? The other Baalay HaTosefos? Did the Ramban not learn enough to protect him from being expelled from spain. Did Abarbanel not learn enough to protect us from the Spanish Expulsion?? Obviously we need to do what Yakkov Avinu did & we must have a war strategy as well!! That is the natural order that Hashem set up and Chazal established for us!

    #669118

    000646
    Participant

    Mosherose said,

    “Except that the fact that learning protects is not a nes – its perfectly natural according to the world that Hashem created.”

    “Obviously we werent learning enough.”

    Even if your premise is correct,

    if the learning of R Elchonon Wasserman and all of the hundreds of thousands of talmidie chachomim and tzadikim who have been killed over the years wasnt enough to protect them, we would have to be extremeley arrogant to depend that our or anybody alive today’s learning to protect us by itself.

    #669119

    Lesschumras, klal yisroel is still here despite the Crusaders, Cossacks, pogroms etc. So the learning that we did do, the Torah that all those sacrificed for, did protect us. Torah true Jews believe, b’emunah sh’leima, that Talmud Torah K’neged Kulom–we say it every morning and I’m sure we believe it too.

    #669120

    aryeh3
    Participant

    To paraphrase Psalm 127, “your watchmen are useless if G-d is not protecting your city”, IOW, just like a doctor does not perform the healing, Hashem does and the doctor is merely a vessel, the IDF does not do the protecting, Hashem does, and the IDF is merely the vessel. Studying Torah obviously helps in drawing down Hashem’s protection, and the IDF by itself, without Hashem, is powerless.

    #669121

    oomis
    Participant

    “oomis1105-Your Grandmother may not have formally learned out of a sefer, but she definitly learned Torah experiantially-and by living it. That’s how most women learned that which they needed to for centuries in order to preserve klal yisroel-and until the Bais Yaakov movement.”

    That’s true, but the person who commented (which prompted MY comment) said that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be an observant Jew without someone “learning Torah several hours a day. IMPOSSIBLE!” And that gets my Irish up, as they say, because there were so many people who never attended Yeshivah, who grew up in frum homes and were extremely obervant all their lives. Living Torah is as important as learning Torah. When someone makes the statement to which I responded, it sounds very negative to me, as if ONLY the Yeshivah bochurim know how to be frum. That just ain’t so.

    I am not a professional baker who went to school to learn how to be a pro, but I learned by observing my mom and Bubby O”H how to make challah, and an assortment of pastries and cakes, as well as cook for my family. One does not always need to learn in a formal way in order to be good at something. Likewise, though of course it is good that someone learns Torah as much as he can, it does not mean that the shomer shabbos person sitting next to him in shul who does not learn several hours a day is not religiously observant. That is a tad elitist to think that way.

    #669122

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    oomis1105- you are IRISH??

    #669123

    oomis
    Participant

    “oomis1105- you are IRISH?? “

    Only on me puir mither’s side. (JK)….

    #669124

    Jothar
    Member

    Lesschumras, Despite the rishonim you quoted, there was a lot of am haaratzus during those times. I believe the meforshim say that the Chelmnicki pogroms happened because of all the talking in shuls. One thing I do know is that Hashem is the ultimate dayan ha’emes, and no punishment comes to klal yisroel if they didn’t deserve it. this doesn’t mean we don’t mourn those killed. It just means we accept it.

    #669125

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    You gotta be kidding to ask why the learning didn’t protect up from the holocaust. I’m sure you know the state of Yiddishkeit then. Most Freye today are Frey from that time.

    The same goes for Spain. You can read the Sefarim from that time to see what they say about the reasons for that Gezeira.

    Another thing to keep in mind is, just as you wouldn’t laugh at eating healthy after finding out about a health nut who became sick, so too, when Hashem tells us how he runs the world, don’t scoff at Him based on a certain example.

    #669126

    Jothar
    Member

    Rav Avigdor Miller ZT”L writes that when he first went to the Yeshiva in Slabodka in 1932, the nearby city of Kovna (of which Slabodka was a suburb)had a bus leaving every half hour on Shabbos for mechallelei shabbos to go to work. By the time he left in 1938, the bus left every 5 minutes. One disadvantage to our way of memorializing Europe is that we think everyone in Europe was frum. This was not the case. Secular Zionists, Socialists, Bundists, and many other “ists” vied for attention with frum Yiddishkeit.

    #669127

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    I am totally shocked that the first post on this thread, which is pure kitrug, was allowed through.

    It is one of the many reasons that I am inactive for the most part over the last few weeks.

    #669128

    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    OP azi; “I can’t say I disagree with their sentiments.”

    One you should do, is be dan L’kaf Zchus.

    Most people look at yidden and say, they dress so weird

    thay act so odd. Well those same people would jump up and say

    wow, I am so impressed by your adherence to your peoples ways and you dress

    immaculately, If it were a Amish person. As someone once mentioned.

    People as biased and, Eisav Soneh L’yaakov.

    Sometimes that goes for non-religious jews as well.

    Yaakov representing the observant jew. etc..

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