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So suppose the problem is that there are more girls than boys because there is population growth and boys marry girls younger than them.
So NASI thinks a good solution is for boys to get married younger. But there’s a reason they don’t already; because this way they learn more years total, and are more mature when they get married.
But there are other solutions.
How about, just everyone should have less kids, so that there isn’t population growth.
Sure then Lakewood won’t need to open up 3 new schools every year to find space for everyone.
Shame on you for writing to stop having children. Are you insane?
I pray to Hashem that he send you a refuah shleima
Rechnitz should provide an extra two years’ support to those who get married at 21.
It’s a much wiser use of money than funding a study to prove what anyone sane already knows.
The solution is simple bring back Polygyny. (only half joking)
Whichever is greater.
Popa bar Abba I don’t know what type of person you are but you should be ashamed of writing such an inappropriate solution plus it’s a really dumb solution because most people will still have more then 2 kids then you still have a growing population just on a smaller scale and shiduch crisis on smaller scale but also less shadchanim and people to help the problem so come up with some better and more appropriate ideas!!!
Popa is not serious.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/lying-on-ywn
I’m serious
Don’t say that. Some people might believe it (and/or think serious is the same thing as literal).
Also, RD’s ad would have to read: “Met your bashert? Good for you! Now help your kids and your friends’ kids meet theirs by having only 2 kids”
1. There was a major change in the American economy just under ten years ago, and many “boys” are reasonably postponing marriage until they are better established financially. Similar behaviors have been observed in the past. Many women probably have similar concerns.
2. Due to changes in medical care over the last century, it isn’t such a big deal. When a woman finds out she is pregnant today, she can assume that she will be marrying off her offspring in 20-30 years. In the past, the liklihood of both her and the child being alive in 30 years was not very good. Indeed, the chances that both the mother and child would be alive a year after conception was troubling (many mothers,and most babies, didn’t make it). The bottom line, relevant to our discussion, is that people who delay marriage until their late 20s or early 30s can still end up producing a “house full of children”. There is no reason to panic.
3. If one looks at the cost of raising a child, even paying tuition, and compares it to the life time income of the child, it is clear that having children is a good investment. It would be tragic if people give up having children since they think it would cost too much. There are some cultures and countries (as a country, Japan is a good example, as a sub-culture, secular Jews are an example) in which people prefer to maximize their enjoyment of life by not having children so they have more money to spend on themselves – which in the long term is disasterous since you end up with a community of old people with no next generation and no future.
That is not the only part of his post which doesn’t make sense.
Also, presumably, you’d have the same per capita.
the government gets mad at us
Huh?
I’m a bit confused.
The subject line of this thread is proposals to address the shidduch crises. But, the responses are predominantly about the effect of the financial burden of having children on shidduchim. While I certainly see a connection between the two issues, they aren’t one and the same.
To begin with, is it axiomatic that both problems must be solved at the same time or can they be addressed separately?
Regarding creative solutions to the financial burden of raising children, one radical approach might be to pool resources. Rather than each family being responsible for funding the education, clothing, feeding and medical needs of their children, the “community” takes on this responsibility instead, similar to the way the old socialist Kibbutzim used to do (do they still do that?).
Everyone – no matter how many or few children they have – is assessed an annual “tax” and the resulting pool of funds is used to pay for those things.
How the community is defined, how the assessments are performed, how the money is collected and managed and who is chosen to oversee so massive a responsibility are just some of the probably mind-boggling number of issues that would need to be agreed upon for this to take place.
I’m a bit confused.
The subject line of this thread is proposals to address the shidduch crises. But, the responses are predominantly about the effect of the financial burden of having children on shidduchim.
Welcome to a popa troll thread (albeit with a serious point).
He is pointing out that the proposed solutions have possible downsides. He is correct. His proposed “solution” is an exaggeration to prove a point. He doesn’t really think people should limit family size to solve the shidduch crisis. He doesn’t either think we should stop being mekarev women, make 10% of the girls frei, or retract Cherem D’Rabeinu Gershom, although all of the above would be mathematical solutions.
The million dollar question is how do we balance the possible negative consequences with the negative consequences of inaction.
Part of that question is how negatively do we view the consequences.
There are big roshei yeshiva on either side of this hashkafically thorny issue, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t discuss it. Even though I lean towards one side of the issue, I don’t dismiss the other.
As far as the tangent started by those who have no clue what the thread was supposed to be about, we have a semi-socialist approach to tuition already, as no yeshivish schools insist on full tuition for those who truly can’t afford it. I think the chassidishe mosdos are even more socialist about this than we are.
How is the number of children going to affect the balance of available boys to available girls? If you’re going that route you’d need to enforce selective pregnancies based on gender.
Tell the girls who aren’t getting married to do something instead of sitting at the phone. Go join a Kollel and become the next Devorah HaNeviah, or Nechama Leibowitz (or Maharat, take your pick).
blubluh – Why should there be any financial burden of shidduchim (other than the wedding, and that can be done simply)?
> we have a semi-socialist approach to tuition already,
> as no yeshivish schools insist on full tuition for
> those who truly can’t afford it. I think the
> chassidishe middos are even more socialist about
> this than we are.
Of course, that only addresses tuition, which, though significant, is just one of the many financial burdens borne (no phonetic pun intended) by those raising children.
Many of these educational institutions themselves face financial pressures. In Oct. 2015, there were reports of poorly maintained buildings of “yeshiveshe” schools in Rockland County, NY (with counter-claims of politically motivated accusations – See edited and search “unsafe conditions” for that date).
come to crawley, UK – there is no shidduch crisis here!
Why is it better for them to go off the derech at 14? Let them go to school, and when they see there’s no shidduch for them by the time they’re 25, they’ll go off then.
This way, at least they’ll be frum for another 9 years or so.
Or the community can keep a list of babies every year and however many more there are of one gender, adopt babies of the opposite gender from outside.
This may be the all-time strangest thread I’ve seen on the CR. And that’s saying alot.
The solution is too drastic. Needs to be softened, e.g. your first two children can be whoever they want, but every child born after the second needs to become a shadchan. Or needs to be a boy who will date starting at age 18. Or needs to be shipped off to a different continent. It’s not going to work as well to simply mandate no more than two children.
RY: I realize you’re joking, but just for clarity’s sake NOBODY IS SAYING THERE ARE MORE GIRLS BORN EACH YEAR THAN BOYS!!!
I thought statistically, there were more boys born than girls.
Wrong, PBA. There are about 105 BOYS born for each 100 girls in the US. Globally, it’s 107 to 100. But that greater disparity is mainly due to the Chinese preferring boys. (Their numbers are 118 to 100.) This is based on 2011 numbers, so it may have changed slightly.
The US (and most of the world) does have more females than males though, as women tend to live longer. And that’s the real reason why more boys are born, as boys’ mortality rates are higher, even in infants.
Mammele, and who do you think all those extra Chinese boys are going to marry?
Obviously, non-Chinese girls. 😉
Of course you also have to get the babies matched up as infants, though arrangements can change when they’re older.
Bring over the 18 extra chinese boys from the above statistic and shidduch crisis solved! (But make sure theyve got all their vaccinations first)
Actually, lets do the math:
Assuming in a typical year, the amount of boys born is roughly equal to the amount of girls born and relatively constant growth rate…
if the typical age of guys getting married is… say… 22 (for arguments sake)
and the typical age of gals getting married is 18 (also for arguments sake)
and the population of Kiryas Yoel (chosen for illustrative purposes due to low influx and high birthrate) in 2010 was 20,175 and in 2000 was 13,168
then
20175/13168 = 1.532
1.532 ^ (4/10) = 1.18
which means that there are, based on the growth rate of kiryas yoel, 18% more gals of marriage-able age than guys of marriage-able age.
There’s your problem…
If guys are willing to marry girls that are two years older, we can alleviate the shidduch crisis almost entirely.
here popa, I’ll make it easy for you:
There is no shidduch crisis. It only exists as an excuse in the mind of those who do not wish to take responsibility for/change the way they chose/discard suggested individuals.
It’s also a substitute for something called bitachon, but nobody wants to talk about that either.
Poof – now it’s gone!
Syag, that doesn’t really explain how there are some really big talmidei chachomim who have more bitachon than you or I will ever have, understand where bitachon and hishtsdlus overlap, and, agav, have long passed the shidduch parsha in their own lives.
Popa: Tongues don’t always belong in cheeks.
popa – bar abba – are you religious?
daas yachid – their are plenty of religious people who only want 2 kids but the majority want a lot. so i dont think popa bar abba is joking. why should people give up on finding a shidduch at 25? theres a G-d and he determines when someone gets married.
akuperma – i agree with you especially since the mo people think i wanna get married at like 30 and have like only 2 kids and think im crazy that i want to get married younger than that because you know everyone must become a doctor and than get married and only have 2 kids so that way you focus on being a doctor.
gavra at work – the single girls (including myself) are VERY busy maybe even more so you didnt know med school was intense and full time and hard? id much rather have kids to be busy with than med school. Also you need to pay your shadchanim.
mammele – you sure? i thought there was more girls than boys?
syag lachochma – that sounds like my idea. no more judging how the guys look if his a good frum boy marry him! were jewish and need to marry another jewish person dont look at the persons looks only if his a good boy and you see potential for a good marriage.
Can I say that the most obvious and downside-free solution, if we get people’s heads straight, is to have women get married later? Not even that much later- let’s say 21, with the guys around the same age or hey, even a bit older.
Funny story- the guy who’s the money behind NASI originally started off with this idea, and he traveled to all the seminaries to talk to the principals, asking them to encourage the girls to wait to get married as a method of ending the shidduch crisis in exchange for a donation to the school. All of the principals apologize and said that sociologically, this couldn’t work- there is a culture among girls of panic and paranoia, where for ever second you’re “on the market” your market value goes down until you’ve reached age 20 and you’ve withered on the vine. (Or worse, 22, when you’re already a raisin.) So the principals said it wouldn’t work, and the guy decided to try getting guys married younger instead.
Literally, though, this makes so much more sense. More time waiting to date is more time to mature, which is always a good thing. (At age 18-19, a girl still has another 6-7 years until her brain is fully developed.) In the kollel system, or even in today’s pressured financial climate where so many families need two incomes, a girl who’s had her schooling not compounded with the pressures of dating, marriage, and pregnancy but rather as a single can finish more quickly and with more menuchas hanefesh, and can earn an income much more quickly rather than be dependent on parental support. (In fact, guys starting college while single might not be the worst idea for the same reason, and I do know guys who are doing it.) Also, many girls come out of seminary starry-eyed and idealistic, and crash down a few months later. The guy they happily get engaged to in October might not be the guy she would have wanted had she waited til May. Girls should be allowed time to mellow out.
I propose a one-year minimum freezer for girls. Give them time to get jobs, begin school, re-adjust to real life without the pressure of shidduchim and a complete change of lifestyle on their backs. Apply all the same tactics they use to get boys engaged younger to get girls engaged older.
Rav Avigdor Miller:
“A Beis Yaakov girl should be wed soon after or before graduation. Every day after she leaves the Beis Yaakov marks another step away from idealism, for the street and the office and the secular school have an unfailing effect which increases from day to day.”
Why is it not the same with bochurim then? Why don’t they get married right after finishing high school? If it is because they will continue to learn, or at least be kovea ittim, why not make sure that the girls are also in a framework of Torah?
What is it about marriage that prevents this downward slide, unless its function is simply to lock her in?
The bochorim are learning Torah *full-time*. In the abscence of that, they too should soon wed. Torah keeps the idealism running strong. Marriage indeed is usually a sort of lock, to a large extent, on the ruchniyuskeit one achieved to that point. Once one starts swimming in the outside world, outside the daled amos of Torah, they are being pulled further away.
It’s not a lock, but it is a stabilizing factor.
Rabbi Miller wanted girls getting married younger so that they don’t lose their idealism, but a boy might be better off marrying a girl whose hashkafos were developed in her home rather than adopted in the past few months in seminary.
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