Out Of The Mailbag: (Flatbush Kiddush: Tznius & Drinking Out Of Control)

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    also, nameless, I believe you misinterpreted what Rav Twerski said – because emunah 101 is that when we come to shomayim, the din vecheshbon will be absolute, meaning, if you did 100 mitzvos and 10 aveiros, you go to gehinnom to cleanse yourself for what you did wrong – the bad does not cancel out the good and the good does not cancel out the bad. EVERYTHING is taken into account, and a person’s entire being is exposed before him and before Hashem, to be examined – we cant say ‘ok, ill do an aveirah, but then ill do a mitzvah to make it all even!’

    I think rav Twerski was speaking about how such an idea is NOT daas torah, since I have heard in seforim that discuss this very idea, how people may think it, but it’s not true.

    Plus, it wouldnt be fair if mitzvos canceled out aveiros – the midah tovah is merubah by 500, keneged paranius – meaning, a mitzvah’s reward is 500x greater than the onesh for a sin, but the two are independent of one another, and it would be a detrement to you if it were the way you imagine it.


    Just what is sick about being at home? thats your secular negius talking – women are treated like trash in a society that encourages women being out for the whole world to gawk at(and gawk they do), is that what you prefer? you have been brainwashed by secular society to think that anything that makes a difference between the roles of men and women is ‘mysognisitc’ or whatever – aere you some kind of feminist? honestly, get your mind out of american shtusim and think from a torah perspective – I doubt hashem, who said kol kevudah bas melech penima, meant it to mean belitting women cv’s, aderaba, it uplifts the women to a level of kedushah that is inherent in anivus – you have been sayig some interesting ‘chidushim’ for lack of better word, but you dont even know where kol kevudah is found in the torah, and you expect me to agree with your idea that a pasuk in tehillim is meant as a drush only? there are 5 levels fo undderstanding pesukim, known as pardes: pshat, remez, din/drasha, sod – you’re suing what some use as a drasha for ol kevudah as if it were the entire concept – tell me, have you thought this through before calling hashem, cv’s, cv’s, cv’s, cv’s, ‘sick’? he says this in tehillim(writtn with ruach hakodesh), so I think it is you are have a sickness called liberalism – ain odom choteh ele em cain nichnas bo ruach shtus – and this is, my friend, a ruach shtus.

    A gut voch.

    Think BIG

    Nameless: Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Penima is a pasuk in Tehillim.(45:14)

    As any passuk in Tanach, it can be learned on many levels, literally and figuratively. Look into the commentators.



    That was a wonderful expose’. I can imagine what your Bar Mitzvah Pshetel was like. You probably ‘knocked their socks off’.

    Seriously, you did quite well until you tackled the following issues.

    No, I dont think I misunderstood Rav Twersky. The fact is that Hashem is a Baal Rachamim, and it makes perfect sense for us to be able to speak in our defense by pointing out all our mitzvohs and Maasim Toivim in order to lessen our final psak. Did you know that if a person lived his life as a Rosho and is choizer Betshuva on his deathbed, everything is deleted? (Ad Yom MOSO tICHAKEH lo…..)I stand to be correctd, but I think every Jew gets a MAXIMIUM of an hour gehenom, regardless of his deed.

    There was a story recently about a secular Jew who was cliniquely dead for some time, they send him back down because he had certain zechusimn, now he became abaal teshuva. Here is the link:http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7332930594849349840&hl=en

    Your right, as I mentioned before, my reaction was a bit harsh. But please dont play ‘physcologist’ and tell me that I’m a feminist. What I meant to say is that a woman can be soiche to do mitzvohs OUTSIDE, AND be an Akeres Habayis. Assuming other wise would border on the ‘American Shtus’ of Male chauvenism. Pleae dont let yourself be brainwashed by secular society and understand that women have mitzvohs that might require them to be outdoors, and YES , after my time, I plan to excuse myself for being ‘oiver’ on Kol Kevudah…(in the literal sense) very confidently. May no JEW every transgress anything worst.

    Gut Voch to you,

    Think BIG

    Well said, Mattisyahu

    May I add, that just because our generation has strayed far from the ideal, ie. becoming the norm that all our women are out of the house all the time, should not take away the fact that we should still learn about and strive for the ideal to whatever degree we could.

    just me

    Think what would happen if women stayed in the house:

    1)Children would be raised by their mothers instead of babysitters

    2)Men would have to go to work and just learn in their spare time as most did a generation ago.

    Maybe this would take care of some of the “children at risk”

    Seriously, if you want to take care of the tzniyus and the drinking problem, try teaching hashgafa in schools. These issues all stem from not feeling conected to Hashem, our loving Father.

    BTW, why are most of the men here busy with yelling about the women and not really touching the MEN who drink too much? Hmmmm. Interesting


    to joseph if you look in shevuous 30a..the first piece of ra’n from gemmoroh, also 1st piece rosh gemmorah, mashmah that ‘kol kevida bas melech penimah’ tehilem 44 p.14 is not a issur but bedrech mussur shouldnt drei zeich tzufeil by men…’hinai huoheloh’..rashi ‘tzeniah hu’..means since strangers (the malachim)came, so altz tzunious she went in, ‘hu oihaloh..’no, not because of inferior, etc..we are not going into the subject of goireum histaklus etc.which quite a few posters dont even know what it means (accorsing to postings on this subject in other articles)any way see chosehn mispat brings this halacha 123 seuf 1 aruch hashilchon…’ v’noshim yekoros…’ see there, cant bring whole halacha, but why only noshim ‘yekoros’..so pshat she can use this as reason not to to come to bes din but not that its assur to go.. so if you cabn enlighten me as where its paskened as ‘ISSUR’, no bderech mussar, to go out..


    Nameless – I fear you have made some more mistakes, gehinnom is at most, a year, unless you did one of the things you dont get out of gehinnom for(even then it’s not eternal, just very long), this is why we say kaddish for 11 months, to be dan lechaf zchus that it wasnt a year, since only a very bad person would get a year, so we do it for 11 instead of 12.

    Because hashem is a baal rachamaim he punishes us. This is because gehinnom is a chessed, it’s a way of purifying is for gan eden – this is where we enjoy our maysim tovim and mitzvos, however, as I said before, the reward for mitzvos is 500 times greater than the punishment for aveiros, so it would not be fair to have them cancel out aveiros – it would mean less reward for you.

    Also, teshuvah erases mistakes while you are still alive – not after you’re dead, so the idea of erasing misdeeds works even when there is a moment left to life. Once you’re standing for a judgment though, there is no teshuvah – otherwise, no one would go to hell at all, plus, the purpose of life is action, oth good and bad, changing the self – olam haba is stagnant, it has nothing to do with growth, it is what you make it, literally.

    Now, I cannot say kol kevudah(the pushut pshat) is a lav, but it is halacha, and is used in halacha all throughout shas and poskim.

    I do not remember which mussar sefer disucsses your misconception about din vecheshbon, but I am sure I have seen it addressed as a misconception, i think it was the nefesh hachaim, but i honestly do not remember now.

    The story of that baal teshuvah was said over at the shabbos table – it’s a touching, beautiful mayshoh, but I do not what relevance it has to what we were discussing – that man came back, and hence, he did teshuvah, but he would not have been able to do that if he stayed there, as he said himself, all the malachim he made with his averos were there, and once you’re in beis din, there’s no teshuvah anymore – thats only something you can do here, and here, he did it, thank G-d.

    anon for this

    How would the idea of women spending most of their time indoors apply practically today? Many women who do not work outside the home are responsible for some/ most/ all of the shopping; errand-running; transportation of children to & from school, camp, playdates, and other activities; and bringing children to various medical/ dental appointments. How would a woman, particularly a mother with young children, fulfill these responsibilities without leaving the home? Also, how could a woman take her children outside to play or to the park or zoo is she is unable to go outside, especially if she doesn’t have a backyard?

    Some of these services are available. There are services that deliver groceries or dry-cleaning. And some children are provided with bus services (although ideally this would need to be door-to-door service so the mother doesn’t need to go outside to wait for/ with her children, since she obviously can’t leave them unattended). But these services are limited & often expensive.

    I’d particularly like to hear Matisyohu28’s opinion on this.


    My opinion is that you try to be makayam kol kevudah whenever possible – meaning, for instance, if you have to buy something, and you’re able to buy it online instead of going to a store, that would be preferable – regarding taking care of children, that’s a separate issue and when a woman does that she is(hopefully) doing a mitzvah of chinuch. Kol kevudah does not mean it’s assur to go outside, it means that women should stay inside as much as possible, and this is how chazal use it in many places in the gemora, as a general rule, that women stay inside, they then quote this pasuk as precedent for whatever ruling they are talking about.

    Bekitzur, it’s a wonderful thing to do whenever possible. However the poster’s opinion that it is ‘sick’ is absurd and am haratzus, to say the least, as it is mentioned in most facets of torah(gemora, mishnayos, meforshim, halacha seforim) – this is why women should not learn gemora, the proof is just by reading what this poster wrote – it was filled with misinformation and am haratzus, and I am very surprised at the elementary hashkafic and halachic errors, as these are things that most women know.



    I will thank you not to play the ‘spin card’!

    When I said ‘sick…..’ I was referring to the manner in which you alluded a woman should stay in doors, even if mitzvohs require that she be out!

    I still say that the shiur I heard from rav Twersky is as I rpeated it!

    Is it possible that your not aware of everything?? Throwing around expressions like ‘absurd and am haaratzish’ is not just Gaavah(which btw, is something the ALMIGHTY hates) but it might fall into the category of ‘Hamalbin….(welll, you know what that leads to RL)

    Choose your words carefully my friend, and make sure to get your facts straight before your choished someone of misinterperting anything(choised biksheirm, wow! I must say for someone who preaches how we should go about life here in order to achieve there, your not giving a very good example)

    Thridly, if your intimidated by the knwoledge many woman have, it still doesnt give you areason to demean anyone with falsities!



    you really think its better for a woman to shop online than to go to a store????

    All the rabbonim have spoken out against going online for non-business purposes. and you’re saying that lechatchila its preferable to do that??

    and yes, I know I shouldn’t be on YWN either because its not business related, but I admit that its my own shortcoming. I admit I shouldn’t be here. But that’s very different than saying its the lechatchila thing to do.

    Think BIG


    Allow me a few words on the subject, not that I am an expert like you.

    Kol Kevudah has got to take on a different emphasis than just staying home as much as possible. The idea is to be “penima”, to stay hidden. That encompasses alot more than just staying at home, which is really not such a challenge if you think of it. (see Rav Shamshon R. Hirsch on this passuk…)

    Dina was punished with the story of shechem for going to a parade, where she should not have been seen at all. Her mother Dina went out to greet Yaakov and spoke to him in an “unrefined” manner, if i may.

    Penima, as i understand it means you know you are a soul, not just a body. It means you do what you need to do in a refined, quiet, hidden manner, not in an attention seeking way. If a woman goes shopping and behaves as a bas melech should at the store, that is penima. Suggesting that it is preferable to shop online is denying that going online has its own hazards. Certainly no woman should take that advice before checking with their husband or rav! (imagine the scene, “Husband, dear, we need to get access to the internet because this guy on yeshivaworld said that its better to shop online than going to a store. Oy, I’ve been doing it wrong all these years!)

    The real reason I have a problem with what you are saying is that i have heard a lot and read alot about the subject of tznius. And I have never (before this) heard of any Rav or knowledgeable authority (or anyone for that matter) explain it that way. Maybe since it just isnt feasable, being that our girls start going out really young to Bais Yaakov and all, but watever the case, your take on it is certainly original.


    nameless – it sounded like you were saying that the whole idea of women being inside was sick – doing mitzvos outside when necessary is one thing, but it sounded like you were speaking of the whole concept, which is why I responded the way I did.

    Also, i dont see how there was gayva in saying that the idea you mentioned is spoken about in mussar seforim as an example of an error – being choshed kesherim is when you know that kesherim are saying something and you are choshid them – here, i have no reason to believe rabbi twerski said anything you were talking about, so I am being choshed your report on what he said, since it flies in the face of chazal – big difference.

    also, i wasnt really thinking about other ways of doing things when I wrote about shopping online, it was just an example – in retrospect, you’re right, it was not an advisable thing to do, but I meant that kol kevudah should be kept whenever possible, and thawas just an example of the idea – so I’ll rephrase that by saying that shopping over the phone would be preferable


    regarding the original topic of out of control drinking on Shabbos. My brother in law is a member of Hatzala in Staten Island and he told me yesterday something that hadn’t occured to me, but is probably happening in any community served by Hatzala. What was happening was members would have a few drinks at kiddush, get a call on their walkie talkie and run to the emergency. People were driving while impaired, if not actually drunk and arriving at the scene with alcohol on their breaths. They had to lay down the law; if you take even one drink at a kiddush, put away the walkie talkie.


    gevalt..hatzolah too!? I hope to g-d this was an isolated case – a geshmake shabbos is one thing, but when you have one’s life in your hands, thats sakanas nefashos, both of the driver, the people on the road, and the person he’s coming to help

    anon for this


    Thanks for clarifying your point. I had not understood “kol k’vodah…” as applying to me in the literal sense, because it seems to me that given the way our communities and lifestyles are structured, staying inside all the time with younger children would mean compromising their education, health, safety, mental well-being, etc. for the reasons I detailed above. I understood the phrase more in the sense Think BIG explained, as describing how a woman should conduct herself when she is outside.

    Taking my children where they need to go & supervising them while they play is one of the ways I care for them, which I consider one of my primary tasks at this time. None of the grocery stores near me take telephone orders; some take internet orders, but sometimes shopping in-store is the only way to get the items I need. Taking my children out on errands allows me to model appropriate behavior in public places, which is an important part of their chinuch.

    Thinking out loud

    Many months ago, I posted on YWN regarding tznius. I posted with the best of intentions. However, in the process of making my point I made a very grave error. I was lax with the honor that is due a gadol batorah. I commented about a sefer that was written with yiras shamayim to be mezakeh es harabim. It is a terrible, terrible sin to disparage a Talmid Chochom, and even more so to cause others to do so. Since I am known by a screen name on this website, I would like to apologize to the author of the sefer in this forum, where I publicly made this grave error. May it be H-shem’s will, that no further harm should come as a result of my mistake.

    In the zechus of the efforts of the many people who are trying so hard to restore kedusha to klal yisroel, may we be zoche to merit teshuva shelaima, and the resulting geulah.


    I’m reviving this topic. Not the tznius aspect but rather the drinking aspect. If anyone thinks the drinking at kiddushim has stopped or at least slowed, they only need to look at the new “how a lchaim can become a limaves” campaign started recently by Hatzala, Misaskim, Shomrim and other Brooklyn community organizations. It isn’t a Shabbos morning kiddish problem any more. It is now a Friday night oneg and even post mishmor Thursday night to wash down the chulent problem too.


    On your very first coffee room post in the beginning of this thread you seem dismissive that a drinking problem exists.

    What a difference seven and a half years makes. Has it worsened?


    I still don’t see it in shul and I still don’t get invited to those kiddushim. I guess my social life and social standing hasn’t changed much. I do have sons who are 7 years older and Thursday nights and Friday night “oneg shabbos” with the guys frightens me. It isn’t out in the open the way It was described here rather, away from parents, rabbeim and other adult supervision.


    There will not be a Klal Yisroel in 20 years.

    Well, it’s been 7 years since this prediction, and I think we’re doing ok.

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕

    Maybe we were a lot more okay seven years ago.


    After rereading this thread-

    who says that the pashut pshat of “kol kvuda bas melech pnima” is that women have to stay indoors any more than it has to do with middos? The “poshut pshat” is “all of the honor of the daughter of the king is within.” Within what? What kind of honor? If my dad works in an office and doesn’t rule anywhere, does it still apply? 😛 The “staying indoors” explanation is just as pshat as the middos and inner glory explanation, really.

    (And it’s tehillim. It would be an interesting world if we paskened from tehillim.)

    Essentially, while tznius is a wonderful thing, the amount of hateful invective on this thread was actually scary to read.

    And yes, I think the drinking is a huge issue as well.


    writersoul: Both the Shulchan Aruch and Rambam pasken l’halacha that kol kevuda is a reason why women must mostly stay indoors.


    Agree with DY, we are going in the direction that was predicted. We are quickly finding ourselves needing to write off more and more people in order to preserve kedusha. We are becoming more and more fractured and extremist across the spectrum. I do not think we are doing OK.


    squeak: can your cite some examples of what you’re referring to?


    That doesn’t make that explanation more pshat than the other one. That’s not how pshat works. (See Rashbam.)

    Anyway, that would be more of an asmachta than an actual prooftext, no?


    The entire problem with the shul kiddeishim that spiral out of control is that people forget the very reason why they went to shul in the first place!

    I have been in different communities where the physical tznuis was arguably worse than the worst Flatbush kehillah (hate to stereotype, but let’s face it, Flatbush as a majority is pretty pathetic in this regard), but they were always aware of WHY they came to shul and nothing spiraled out of control; on the contrary, there was a decent sense of respectful decorum.

    Ay, now you wonder how it could be possible that women could be dressed terribly and not to have mechitzah, but yet comingling and kalos rosh to be rather non-existant?

    The answer is thus:

    Every human being is on a different level. Some people are going up. Some people are going down.

    If you are not going up, the only alternative is down.

    In Yiddishkeit, there is no such thing as being stagnant.

    So, the bottom line is that the reason for the pritzus you saw, had little to do with the actual tznuis, but rather to do with the downward spiritual path of the people attending. Lack of tznuis, both in dress and action, is only a siman that someone’s spiritual world is out of whack.

    So at the end of the day, the question is, do you really want to attend a shul with such people? (or did you only stop by as an obligation?)

    They may be wonderful people, and even have moments of growth- but the downward surge can take you along with it.

    Please consider carefully, and perhaps ask your own Rav before attending such events.


    I find myself reading through these older posts and I come to the conclusion, surprisingly, that many of the more “conservative” opinions here are right (as regards tzniusdik dress and activity and alcohol consumption at kiddush).

    Someone who is brought up with seychel and derech eretz will be taught to dress modestly and appropriately in shul, regardless of denomination. It all starts and ends in the home, so a parent will and should model this kind of dress and behaviour. Now, I don’t think either of the two letters in the OP were complaining about sleeves to the elbow and skirts to the knee. It seems a lot more than that was displayed. It seems that much more immodest dress and behaviour was described. There’s no place for this in anyone’s shul, or for that matter any place of worship.

    I’ve also seen the growth of the drinking phenomenon, though I haven’t personally encountered much of it with the youth. And the immodesty of drinking can sometimes be of a gaaivadik variety – oh, I brought a $200 bottle of single malt…Oh, I brought a $300 bottle of vodka…etc. That is as untzniusdik as a low neckline on a dress, or worse, because it incorporates pride, greed and gluttony along with immodesty.

    Our shuls are places of holiness, learning, and Jewish unity. If that is recognized by secheldik people, they won’t come dressed immodestly, and they won’t come to drink themselves silly.

    I’d make a couple of exceptions and comments, though. First, often enough there are those who do not have the upbringing to know what is appropriate, and are wearing what to them might have seemed the most appropriate. If these are one-offs, there for a simcha, it is the responsibility of the baal simcha to try to educate them on expectations in a place of sanctity.

    If the individual is in shul for the first or a rare time, it can be a teaching and learning opportunity even if they aren’t dressed appropriately. As hard as it might be, such an individual should be treated with respect and kindness. That way they may come back, and they would likely emulate the dress of those who go frequently.

    Finally, where I vehemently do not agree is with the focus on women and their tzniyus responsibility, while indicating that the only male tzniyus responsibility is to keep his women caged at home. Each of us, man and woman has a responsibility to live a Torah life in the world, meeting the challenges of tzniyus and all other challenges with the education, mussar, and guidance of our parents, teachers, and those who we take as our leaders. We should all turn inwards to protect the vitality of our homes and our families and their holiness, at the appropriate times, in the appropriate ways. And in that, as in so many other ways, our mothers, sisters, wives and daughters can show us the derech.


    “while indicating that the only male tzniyus responsibility is to keep his women caged at home.”

    The gemara tells us this is what Pappus ben Yehuda did to his wife. This resulted in immorality that yielded the most famous mamzer in history.


    <There will not be a Klal Yisroel in 20 years.>

    well, 10 years later were still going strong.
    Mi Kiamcha Yisroel



    Taking this same theme to the (somewhat) newer fad of BBQ events for a wide variety of good causes, it seems to be spiraling out of control. Scotch and whiskey tasting, hand rolled cigars, multiple varieties of smoked meats etc. readily available for those who want to support any one of a number of good causes.

    I have been to exactly one such event and while the cause was a worthwhile one, the behavior and atmosphere is not one I can agree with.

    I guess this is where we are headed. The slope is very steep and long.


    I agree with RebYidd23. Very well said.


    Meno, at least there’s one thing we found that an ish emes can agree with RY23 about!


    The link at the beginning is broken.


    RY: That link was live in 2008 when this thread started. Many pages get deleted after 9 years .

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