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They don’t go to these shuls to daven. They talk there during the davening and they go there just for the ‘kiddush’ food. These are the ‘kiddush hoppers’.The husbands buy the clothes for their pretty wives and their beautiful daughters. The rebbitzen wears the most colorful dresses. At sholosh seudos,they have a fashion contest.
People have to stop being judgmental. if people have a serious problem with the tznius in their community, they should talk to their rav, not send email to the editor of a website, that is ludicrous. it is an attempt to feel good about themselves that they are “doing something”. in my neighborhood, marine park, a rov was told about the problem, and he spoke about it on shabbos with seichel and a bit of class. to some people he made a roishem, on others it didn’t. a tv has nothing to do with it. (i do find it funny that ishbainanoshim uses fughedaboutit in his message, which comes from movies and television shows portraying Italian mafioso slang!)
tznius is something that there is no black and white. most people here kleep on saying that the knee needs to be coverd, and the elbow needs to be covered. they clearly never learned a halacha of tznius in their lives, and just roboticaly repeat what people have told them. hilchos tznius is not really learned in yeshivos thoroughly due to the fact that rebbeim consider it not tzniusdig. that is stupid, and leads to these problems. it MUST be taught. the halacha is about the bone of the thigh and the bone of the forearm.. there is a “MACHLOKES” as to whether the elbow and knee are part of this due to these bones being a ball and socket connection. most rabbonim hold that they must be covered. again, most, but some disagree, and say that covering up to the knee and up to the elbow are fine as well. calling these people goyim is just ignorant and pure sinos chinam.
you want to change things letter writers one and two, go to your ROV, not yeshiva world. if you have daughters, have them speak to other girls in your shul. have your wife speak to the other wives. but of course, since you don’t due these things, i take it your both coward-like creatures who hides behind the rhetoric and pseudonyms of the blogosphere, not even being man enough (or women enough, but i doubt your women) to say what neighborhood your from.
Moderator – i think from now on, you should put first names and last initials on the mailbag letters, like in newspaper letters to the editor.
I wanted to write about this issue for a very long time but was waiting for someone else to bring it up. I know there would be some cynicle comments on this but I would like to say it as it is. As a child I grew up davening in a Yeshiva and the Rosh Yeshiva was one of the Gedolei Yisroel. At the time whenever there was a Kiddush it would be held in a large dining room with men on one side and women on the other. There was no Mechitza in the middle but there certainly was no mingling between the men and the ladies. As I grew up, it became a bit uncomfortable for people and I believe today therev is a Mechitza. I don’t think it is a bad thing that people today are becoming more quote on quote “frummer”.
I was recently at a Kiddush in an “Agudah” shul and was appalled to see the mingling during the Kiddush. The Rov, a well known Choshuva rov and Talmid Chochom, was mingling there together with the others. After questioning his behavior he said that people come from other shuls that are less Makpid on this and they are the ones that are creating this problem. His reason for this is that he wants to be Mekarev them. This shul does not keep a Mechitza up during the Kiddush. Isin’t it time that we put our standard above others and make it understood that we strive for greater levels in Tznius etc. We cannot change others but we can change ourselves.
At another shul I recently attended, I saw a new phenomenon. There was a Mechitza in one corner of the hall where the Rov sat and everyone else was mingling. COMEON, lets be real. Where are we going with this? Let the Rabbonim stand up for what is right.
With all the stories that are going on, we must do our maximum to prepare ourselves for the many “Nisyonos” that we are up against. May HKB”H have Rachmonus on us and lead us in the right direction and have the “Siyata D’Smaya” to act properly.
Thinking out loud, thank you for that post. It needed to be said.
We have lived in EY for several years and have recently returned to the US. The lack of tznius is beyond appalling. What’s with the excessively tight short clothes? Is that what a previous commentator meant when she said that Bais Yaakov girls should look their best? Wearing spaghetti strap tank tops with a tight t shirt underneath? I work in a goyish enviornment and the goyish ladies there dress more tniusdikly than the ladies in Flatbush!
And to all that wrote “he should just not look” or “he should change shuls” he can certainly do that, but we still have to deal with this horrific problem.
woman are not dressed tzniusdikly because they dont want to. they think its nerdy to wear something that isnt formfitting. b. it isnt because “thats what they are selling in stores” that is such shtus because there is plenty tobuy in stores.. and theres always a size bigger! i agree that there are a lot of outfits that are being sold that arent tzniusdik but if it isnt tzniusdik then.. you dont buy it!!! nobody is forcing you to buy it!! so dont blame your lack of tznius on the store owners.. theyr not forcing you to buy anything. its totally up to u if you want to be tzniusdik or not.
People have to stop being judgmental. if people have a serious problem with the tznius in their community, they should talk to their rav, not send email to the editor of a website, that is ludicrous. it is an attempt to feel good about themselves that they are “doing something”. in my neighborhood, marine park, a rov was told about the problem, and he spoke about it on shabbos with seichel and a bit of class. to some people he made a roishem, on others it didn’t. a tv has nothing to do with it. (i do find it funny that ishbainanoshim uses fughedaboutit in his message, which comes from movies and television shows portraying Italian mafioso slang!)
tznius is something that there is no black and white. most people here kleep on saying that the knee needs to be coverd, and the elbow needs to be covered. they clearly never learned a halacha of tznius in their lives, and just roboticaly repeat what people have told them. hilchos tznius is not really learned in yeshivos thoroughly due to the fact that rebbeim consider it not tzniusdig. that is stupid, and leads to these problems. it MUST be taught. the halacha is about the bone of the thigh and the bone of the forearm.. there is a “MACHLOKES” as to whether the elbow and knee are part of this due to these bones being a ball and socket connection. most rabbonim hold that they must be covered. again, most, but some disagree, and say that covering up to the knee and up to the elbow are fine as well. calling these people goyim is just ignorant and pure sinos chinam.
you want to change things letter writers one and two, go to your ROV, not yeshiva world. if you have daughters, have them speak to other girls in your shul. have your wife speak to the other wives. but of course, since you don’t due these things, i take it your both coward-like creatures who hides behind the rhetoric and pseudonyms of the blogosphere, not even being man enough (or women enough, but i doubt your women) to say what neighborhood your from.
Moderator – i think from now on, you should put first names and last initials on the mailbag letters, like in newspaper letters to the editor.
Its amazing how men are shifting all the blame on the women.
Wake up and smell the coffee; men, you also have a chiyuv in tzniyus, if you stop staring at another woman or a girl maybe then your wives and children will stop having the pressure to look like someone walking out of Paris and out of Hollywood!
yiddishemishpacha said: “Too many people are just marching along, keeping Shabbos, performing mitzvahs but they have no kesher with Hashem or understanding of their role as a Jew. Too much of what I see looks like rote actions.” I think you did an excellent job describing yourself!!
What really troubles me is that we ARE busy banning everything else except what NEEDS to be banned or at least controlled. We’re banning concerts, amusement parks, ballgames and the like. Not a word though when it comes to today’s real problems: Tzniyus, drinking, rampant lashon harah, shady business practices, chillul Hashem and more. Where are the “Askanim” and “Rabbanim” when it comes to this? It really is mind boggling…..
go speak to Rav Simcha bunim Cohen shlita while i dont live in that part of lakewood i see first hand on what effect he has at his shull unbelivable change and mostly “ballei battim” in learning tznius and yiras shomiyim (ie tznius shurim balei battim finshing shas etc etc
lesschumros: thank you for your perhaps warranted criticism. I assume you are concerned because of your ahavas yisroel and not simple distaste for anyone who says the truth that touches on of your raw nerves. I don’t want to be doing anything by rote, especially because I (and my family) are baalas teshuvas and chose to serve Hashem although we grew up in an environment very far from it. Anyway, I definitely will think about what you said and do not deny that in some aspects of my observance I am quite possibly guilty as charged. I live in Flatbush and the complete lack of tznius (and not only in the area of dress) is very disappointing to me especially because I think we should expect better from women who were fortunate enough to have attended B.Y schools (i.e. assumingly had a Jewish education and were taught tznius)
the tznius is horrible in the frum world the truth is we should just look down on the street and not complain becausee are not changing the world.
but why do ladies dress like this they think tznius is just covering the parts where you have to. the truth is making one to try look at you and get their attention is also a problem with tznius. in halacha it says not to dress in red because that attracts the eye.
Husbands and fathers have to convince who they can to try to dress properly as this story with Rav Schach zt”l shows a man once complained to Rav Schach that his wife is not dressing properly. Rav Schach said to call in his wife. When the qwife came in Rav Schach said her husband complaint she replied that the only time my husband complements me on how i dress is when i dress not properly.
About a year ago there was a roumor about moshiach coming ( with Rav Eliyashiv shlit”a) a lady called a Rov and said she does not want moshiach to come yet because she has nothing tznius to wear. Its a true story. I hope when mashiach comes, we will have some thing tznius to wear to gret him and when we do he wont push away ladies (AND MEN WHO ALSO DRESS TO SHOW AND TO ATTRACT ATTENTION) because they are not dressed properly. may we be zoche to mashiach very soon
agreed
Both letter writers have valid points , however they should both stop attending these niteclub kiddushim. tznius and drinking have always been problems at social affairs,
GO DAVEN SOMEWHERE ELSE ,you wont notice the problem anymore !!!!!
TZNIUS IS OUR PRIDE AND GLORY!
The Torah states:
???????? ?????? ??????
Holy You Should Be!
By wearing immodest clothing we distance the Shechina (Divine Presence) from us.
As the Torah states:
??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??????
Immodesty should not be seen amongst you!
Or Hashem will withdraw his presence from you!
When the Shechina departs, we are stripped of our protection ?”?
Maybe this is why so many tzoros, illness, crushing poverty and unbearable tragedies, have befallen us.
In the words of the Holy Chofetz Chaim tzl in a famous letter:
To a large degree this despicable style negates the statement of the Torah:
Tight-fitting, short, flashy clothing, low cut necklines, long extravagant sheitels, etc. are contrary to Tznius standards,
Dear Sisters!
Let us wear clothes that are befitting for Jewish Daughters. This will cause the Shechina to reside in our midst. This will bring many blessings upon ourselves, and ultimately bring the Geulah Sheleima ??”?
????? ???? ??????? ?????? ?????! The key to our salvation is in your hands!
Oy! The responses on YWN are as usual a rachmanos!
These 2 letters were obviously written by people who care and are in pain for Klal Yisrael. If all the responders would really care about the Ratzon Hashem and the need for us to keep it then we would all look inward and see how and where we can affect a positive change. Whether in ourselves, family, friends, or others who we don’t know but can touch by writing a heartfelt letter or the like.
R’ Chaim Smuelevitz said “When it hurts you scream”
Yasher Koach to the authors of these letters
I think the solution is simple, if it your shul that this tool place, then you should speak with the Rav ans ask point blank why this is allowed to happen. Then get together with others in your shul to help enforce policy. (Most will have a board and this is a good place to start) There are probably many others who feel the same way. However keep your comments constructive and think of how to make your issue one that people will want to take to heart.
If that doesn’t work, then it’s time to look for a shul that does represent your value system.
Note….I’m wondering why so many are worried about the sake of Klal Yisroel. Between the 3 places where I Daven, (My shul at home at home, my parents and in-laws) there has never been a problem. Nost of the shul’s in my area have strict guidlines where most people are happy to follow. (One of which is a more modern shul with no machitzah by the kiddush and for the most part husbands stick with wives and men on one side and women on the other) Maybe it’s time to look at the good in Klal Yisroel and stop putting a blanket on all Yiddishkeit.
Ah Meinyonai Deyoima… In today’s Daf Yomi Soiteh 22A, it discusses a young woman who davens to HASHEM that noone should be enticed to sin because of her, and Reb Yochanan praised her.
We should teach our Bnois Yisrael “Hell has no fury as a woman adorn (in Non=Tznius fashion)”.
I live in flatbush and find it quite tzinuusdick on shabbos, when families and young adults walk around. My shul is mainly middle aged couples, clueless about fashion, and they look mechabadik.
Open Rabbi Falk’s book on tznius – think it’s called “oz vehadar levusha” & you’ll be surprised. The same halachos apply to everyone.
This book is TZNIUS according to Rav Falk, not according to halacha lemaasah. He interjects much of his own ‘spirit of the law’. Following half of what he writes will have you look like an aidel bas yisroel.
to all of you who think that drinking is not a huge problem in the frum velt you have your head in the sand. ever clean up after a kiddush or any simcha and count the finished bottles of shnaps and beer our heimeshe oilim goes through. we have become no better than the shikkurim who hang out in the bars.
It started with getting drunk on Purim at the rebbes house,carried over to getting high every Friday night in Yeshivas in Israel and ends up a member of the weekly kiddush club that needs help finding their way home after davenning.
I have complained to rabbonim, rosh yeshivas and askonim about the need to speak out about this terrible trend but it has fallen on deaf ears.
R”L we are waiting for an accident to happen before anyone important will say boo.
By the way, shame on those that spend $150 on a bottle of shnaps to show off to their friends and then drink it like a bunch of drunken sailors in front of their kids.
bklynmom: Following half of what he writes will have you look like an aidel bas yisroel.Chas V’Shalom! “look like an aidel bas yisroel”, what could be worse!?
yiddishemishpacha: Hashem will judge me. YOU keep your eyes to yourself and judge me B’sayva Panim Yafot! That is YOUR chiyuv. I’ll take care of mine.
After reading previous posts I can PROUDLY say I’ve not seen anything like this in Wash Hghts or in KAJ k’hillo.There are Rabbonim there who are listened to by their congregants and members. Never will you see anyone get drunk at any of their simchos. And IF someone comes there non-tzniyus dressed,it is an outsider or a goy who wanted to wish the baal simcha congratulations.People come to daven in shul very decently dressed.Jackets and hats,and,even TIES ,long dresses and no flirting.It’s time for people to hire a real Rov,join a REAL kehillo-shul,and stop looking down on everyone that has different hashkofos. Less entertainment and more Torah and MUCH more derech eretz is very much needed.Wearing long black jackets,peyos and rebbishe hats,don’t make people more frum.The Rov should have special suit and hat, and the followers should have average but decent looking dress.
JudySL,
Your problem for being driven off could also have been a form of gaiva. So don’t balme those who have turned you off.
And yes:
yiddishemishpacha has a valid point on accepting critisicm. If people would understand that Hashem speaks through everyone’s mouth, then mussar would be accepted. Don’t expect others to stop judging when they are looking to be judged!!!
Sorry for being a little graphic, but I’ve unfortunately noticed how women are into the style of painting their toenais with nothing covering their feet or above. One can argue that covering the legs depends on the minhag of the town, but I can assure you that my mother, A”H, wore them living in Flatbush when the some of the younger generation stopped wearing them.
JudySL,
we have every right to be upset. If you don’t like it, don’t read YWN!
As several posters have pointed out, the problem is shared both by the women who want to dress this way as well as (and perhaps even more by)the husbands who approve of it.
Rabboisai: It’s wonderful that you find your wives attractive. Do you really need the affirmation of your friends as well. I doubt that a single instance of enhanced shalom bayis has ever come from that. Tell your wife what you think, tell her how special she is to you, thank Hashem for what you have, and rejoice in the hapiness that comes from maintaining privacy.
There is a post on this thread that I think says it EXACTLY like it is. It is by “thinking out loud” and it is towards the beginning of the thread. I dont know who wrote it, but everyone should read it and reread it and rereead it again. It is the fundamental problem facing Klal Yisrael’s younger generation today. They are so fed up of black and whites and everything shoved down their throats, that they are not getting the very basics of many fundamental concepts in Yahadus. When are we going to wake up and see that all these blanket Takanos at best have some following like blind, confused sheep? When will start empowering our kids to understand what they are doing and why? There is so much more to be said here…
What’s with the thin craze? We know of frum women who are starving themselves eating nothing but salads all day. Everyone wants to show off how thin they are as a way of showing some sort of accomplishment. Tell the women to eat normally and not to starve themselves, so they won’t parade around. Let them feel accomplished in more important endeavors.
I realize that there is a lot of pritzus going on in SOME shuls etc….
But I would like to bring out some very nice parts of the woman of Klal Yisroel.
I was at a kiddush on shabbos in Flatbush. There were a lot of people there and
there was not one women dressed inappropriatley. I dont know WHAT crowd you are
mixing with BUT it is obviously not the crowd for you and you should change your davening place and perhaps where you live. Also, how do the ladies in your life dress? are you on top of the situation? R’ Mattisyahu Slomon said that it is THE HUSBANDS resposibility as to how his wife dresses. The crowds that I mingle with will be around in 20 years.
Tznius is deffinitly a problem in Klal Yisroel. Why do women need to dress like this when they go to a simch where tey know men will see them as they come and go?
it seems both of these individuals went to the same kiddush (b’h)so its an isolated incident though the 2nd individual wrote what the first one chose to leave out for good reason
having said that i fully agree 100% with both letters (though living in lakewood b’h we(so far)dont have these problems.
i think credit goes to these 2 individuals who took the time out to bring this to the publics attention and rabbonim will definatly come out and give speeches about tznius most do anyway especially now b4 the summer etc but it definatly gives backbone to the rabonim when they see that torahdik baalebatim are behind them and support there efforts
may hashem keep our machne kodesh from outside influenses and behaivor
these issues have to be practiced by the parents at home and reinforced in the bais yaakov schools AT AN ELEMENTRY LEVEL NOT 11/12th grade HS. if we have the zechus to be born frum we should take advantage of it and be mechanach our childrent to be proud of tznius and not feel suffocated by it! its all a matter of how we are mechanech our children
While tznius is definitely an issue to be dealt with in our community, I am annoyed when people attribute all of klal yisroel’s problems to the failure of women to behave in a tzniosdike manner. There are,unfortunately, many challenges that face our community and attributing it all to tznius (and usually women’s tznius) is simplistic and just passing the buck. I agree with all who say that we should evaluate ourselves first before we attack others. We all have things we need to improve on, especially our relationships with one another.(bain adom l’chaveiro)
Why is anyone under the age of 21 having access to liquor anyways? It is against the law, the adults can get arrested, and this should not be news to any of us. The Adults should know better then to leave a table of whiskey, vodka and wine out for all to take. Why do the adults need such hard liquor, and such an abundance of wine for a kiddush? The children practice what is being preached to them, when they see their parents, older siblings, and rabbis, getting drunk. Where are the responsible adults in situations like this? Take away the alcohol, and tell the drunks to skedaddle! Don’t be another herd statistic, by just standing around witnessing this but not doing a thing, and thinking someone else will handle it.
I think the writer who wrote “these women were dressed as prusta chayos” needs to relax. Do not go somewhere and start sterotyping people based on what you see. If you would write logically instead of writing out of rage your comments would be given some credence. And chastising a rov publicly is also uncalled for. He is a rov for a reason.
yoshi
liquor should be a ‘halbe tzura’. About a month ago I was at a Bar Mitzvah and there were a few bottles of WHISKEY on a table with no supervision. You know who was standing around the table drinking? the little 12/13 year olds! I lookes around for maybe one smart older guy to say something and take the bottles away, but no one did. Until I decided to go up to a relative of mine and tell him to take away those bottles!
FYI: I think it was a year ago a 4/5 year old child was taken to the emergency room do to alchohol poisening! you know where he got the alchohol from? he was at a kiddush and no one was watching him!
what about in the stores
how many times does the “dress to impress” person:
– step directly in front of men and:
— reach for the top of the shelf only to reveal what should be covered
— same with bending down
– not take proper care while:
— sitting
— getting in and out of cars/vans/suvs
mdlevine- what you wrote made me nauseous. stop ogling these women. The excuse that they are the ones making you do an aveira is getting old. how about this:
-when you’re in the supermarket keep your eyes on the shopping list your wife gave you
-when driving or walking keep your eyes on the road, you may crash or get hit by a car.
People will always try to push the limits of what is acceptable. It is the job of our Rabbonim not to be our friends and cavort with the “guys” but to admonish us and push us in the right direction.
For many Rabbonim fear of losing their job dictates their response and for others it is fear of losing the kovod they enjoy as a Rav.
On the flip side, there are Rabbonim who have sacrificed their own jobs and associations by crying out about this shameful situation. Unfortunately, they are in the minority.
It is our job not to protest anonymously on sites such as this one but to voice our opinion in a more public forum.
The kiddush in question haad goyisha male waiters who spent half of davening in the womens section.I wonder why that is ok?
I was listening today to a hotline of someone who was speaking out against women staying in the country by themselves etc.. It seems we have much bigger issues than just the tznius………..
This is a question to YW: Did the author of the first letter say that he lives in flatbush? because the title for both letters say flatbush kiddush which leads me to believe that both kiddashim took place in flatbush. However, i don’t see the flatbush written in the first letter
Come on people are making it as if the guy who looks is always responsible. According to this logic what’s the Halachas regarding znius everyone should dress how they prefer and the men just shouldn’t look. There is a big Yetzer Haro so the Torah says don’t dress as not to attract any unnecessary attention. The him and her will both be held accountable which one more is no difference. The argument “don’t look” isn’t at all relevant here..
Also everyone looks the first glance as people’s eyes see everything. So even if he looks away after that first second (against his Y”H) she will be held accountable for that first glance.
JBL
I live Barich Hashem in Yerushalayims Rova Hayehudiss and we can really learn middois from our Musim Brothers. Barich Hashem the muslim womin dont dress like goyim and muslim men dont drink like chayis.
Chosid
That is a problem that has been going on (and ignored) for years… and it works both ways.
To all the people who say that men shouldn’t look and should worry about their own bein odom lachaveiro,
this IS a bein odom lachaveiro issue as well as a mitzvah.
Of course men shouldn’t look, but some men find it extremely hard not to.
if your brother was a recovering alcoholic would you place a bottle of whiskey in from of him and tell him not to look?
If your brother is trying to lose weight would you put his favorite cake in front of him and tell him not to look?
So if some of your yiddishe brothers will be in shul/at the wedding/in the supermarket and they have a VERY hard time not looking, why tempt them this way? Should they avoid looking? Of course they should! But many men have very strong yetzer horas which require superhuman strength to overcome! Why do you want to make it so difficult for them not to succumb?
The examples mdlevine gave are soooo on the mark.
As a young married frum woman in a “frum” community in NY, I am thinking that no one really understands what is going on here. Let me first start with the pressure for a frum woman when it comes to what we wear. All the women are looking at each other and what they are wearing – is it Prada? Gucci? Burberry? Chanel? Sonia Rykiel? Tory Burch? Did you buy that at Saks or Bergdorf? What you are all writing about is the little picture to a MUCH bigger problem.
Lets start with the women. They all have to be decked out in designer duds or else they can’t be friends with certain people, or someone will talk about them, or it will look like they don’t have a lot of money G-D forbid!!! It is all about the name brand. Now these name brands are not usually cut out for tznius dressers – either it is low cut, too short, very form fitting, etc. But the frum women think if all they do is throw on a 3/4 sleeve Linda Leal under a Chanel dress, it becomes tznius!! You can’t stop people from patronizing non-Jewish stores, but the Jewish stores are no better because some carry these items as well.
Moving on to the men, Some husbands encourage their wives to wear designer clothes, and why shouldn’t they when the husband is wearing a $2000 suit. They want their wives to dress to show off their body or their designer outfit because, like I said before, it shows money and makes them look good.
Do people really think that what went on in that shul over Shabbos is the only place where things like this happen? I was invited to someone’s house for a meal on a Yom Tov with a few other couples and will not even bother repeating the topics that were spoken about or the way the men and women who were not married to each other were acting.
Unfortunately, we have serious issues these days and most of them don’t have to do with drinking on Shabbos. People who are married should be concerned only with their spouse and try to keep their eyes and hands to themselves.
You really think the Rav in most Shuls can even tell these people a word? Derech Eretz today is down the toilet and Chutzpuh (especially in Blogs) is on the rise.
And although the letters have a very valid point it’s quite obvious that they were written by the same person. Even if the IP addresses were different it means nothing.
The similarities are glaring. Only the same person would use and spell Chayos in two letters on the same topic. Sick and sickening on the same issue, and on and on. Read it over two times and you’ll see for yourself.
Frumee basically hit the nail on the head. Now what to do about it?
Ah! An idea get Rabbonim or those who can influence the men to be involved and start to affect change.
Isn’t that the reason why these letter writers sent in these letters?!
To make a tumult that will get the ball rolling!
Yasher koach
Sorry but I must say again ah rachmanos on most of the the comments posted on YWN. And how they often think they know what is the Torah way for what bothers them about someone else’s comments, Oy.
Kol Hakavod to the 2 letter writers!!
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