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So finally what are the downsides of living OOT?
Anyone who says most Chassidises are the same is not Chassidish.
Melbourne australia
> So finally what are the downsides of living OOT?
A need to read YWM to find out what is happening “in town”. Frankly, finding this OOT references a little snobby form people who strictly speaking live on islands off the American continent. Well before Lakewood, Torah often lived “OOT”, far away from Berlin, Paris, Mehoza, Alexandria, Rome, Bavel …
In frum lingo, the “town” is New York City, Greater Lakewood and Greater Monsey.
ujm, I know, but it used to be smaller
Is this the latest trend by chassidim to go to OOT Kollelim?
(Chicago ×2!! Baltimore LA Toronto Detroit Arizona.)
What the incentive?Montreal has a large Chasidish community. Almost every chasidus has a shul in Montreal.
Obviously these kollelim are paying very well that someone looking to continue learning can do so comfortably.
(I heard that the closer ones/ e.g. Baltimore pays in the 1500 range plus covered rent, and the farther ones/chicago in the 2000 range plus rent.
Also from what I heard, in Chicago they help significantly those who choose to buy a house.)The question is that is this really their only option to stay in learning (without their wives working like a chicken without a head.) , or is there some other reason so many chassidishe yungerleit are doing this?
benignuman: How do you like Montreal?
Between all these kollelim there must be around 100+ chassidishe yungerleit doing this.
Sounds a little crazy!
Is in town so broke in providing for chassidishe bnei Torah that so many people are doing this?out of town generally has bigger housing at a more affordable price. I just moved to baltimore and am paying the same for a 3 bedroom apartment than I did in boro park for a 1 room apartment
What are the downsides of living Out-Of-Town?
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If you live in New York City, you can find any kind
of Doctor or medical specialist to help you,
even if you have the worst health insurance.If you live in small town, you might not find the Doctor
you need, even if you have the best health insurance.Rabbi Avigdor Miller ZTL ZYA once gave a public lecture,
which I listened to by tape recorder.Concerning those who leave New York City for far-away small towns,
Rabbi Avigdor Miller quoted the verse from Tanach
“those who are far away from You will go lost”,
meaning that they are in danger of falling away from the Derech HaTorah.
(“Rechaikecha Yovaidu” or something similar.)If you want better answers, then you must specify
the name of the city you are thinking of moving to.Maybe send an email to an Orthodox synagogue in that city.
I am just trying to help. I hope this helps you.
Square Root: You can not apply the words of R Avigdor Miller, which were said probably 40-50 years ago, to today. The ruchniyus in OOT communities is much stronger than it ever was. He was talking during a period when OOT chinuch for children was a bedieved. Today, many communities have stronger than in town. Certainly R Miller would be horifed by the extreme levels of materialism of in town communities and the pressures they create. Certainly, Rav Miller was against the fake frumkeit pressures that have evolved in the last 50 years, which have very little to do with Yidishkeit and making a connection with Hashem. There is no question that living in a community with a lower cost of living enables one to focus more on Avodoas Hashem and what is real.
Your evaluation of the lack of medical access OOT is also not accurate. Some cities actually have better doctors than your beloved NYC. BTW, since Lakewood has now become the “in-town”, how many good hospitals are there in Lakewood?
There are many, many Jews who become lost in the crowd in town, and unless they are a gavrah, they live their lives in mediocrity just following the crowd. OOT enables a person to become somebody and realize his/her full potential.
Both in town and OOT have changed drastically in the last 40-50 years. In order to really understand the advantages and disadvantages of each, it is worthwhile speaking to people to have really seen both, not just people with limited exposure to their limited corner of Lakewood or Brooklyn.
Rocky > You can not apply the words of R Avigdor Miller, which were said probably 40-50 years ago, to today
I agree with you. At some point, it was a problem that Jews settled in multitudes of small towns with almost no Jewish infrastructure. This was part of normal American path: there are probably 100 mln of people who arrived into NYC and 80% left for the rest of USA when they could afford to pay toll over the bridge!
There were several ways to address it: R Miller, L Rebbe wanted their followers to stay “in town”. R Soloveitchik had a plan to raise many rabbis at YU who would be good enough to run these small communities. R Kotler specifically created a yeshiva-centric community far away from NYC.
Nowadays, there are multitudes of either medium sized cities and NYC suburbs that offer Jewish environment and medical system better than NYC.
The reality of the last twenty plus years is that Lakewood has been draining the frum populations of most out of town communities, which are either smaller or simply flat population-wise.
… most Chasiduses (other than Chabad) are pretty similar to each other.
How is Chabad different from other Chasiduses? Is it their acceptance of different levels of observance?
> that Lakewood has been draining the frum populations of most out of town communities
I think proud Tom’s River residents are mostly refugees from in-town or around-town communities. I did not see a big aliya from Topeka to Jackson.
I wonder what would R Kotler do now? Probably move the yeshiva to Topeka.
Dovid > How is Chabad different from other Chasiduses? Is it their acceptance of different levels of observance?
But being actively involved in teaching those people. This was already a thing under the previous, Fridriker, Rebbe who was sending his students to small communities for several years only before the current system when shluchim settle in one place.
AAQ: I include all the surrounding neighborhoods (including Toms River and Jackson among others) in my description of “Lakewood”. And the Greater Lakewood area (if you prefer that description) has been draining the populations of most out of town American communities, for the last 20+ some odd years. OOT frum communities over the last approximately 20 years have been hemorrhaging in either a decline or flat population (when frum population growth would typically increase the population.)
@ujm
I post in support of your observations about Lakewood (Monsey, Teaneck & the Five Towns as well) draining the Frum OOT communities.
A week ago I was in my firmer Connecticut Community to see a doctor and davened at my old weekday minyan. All of the regulars (70+ years of age) were in attendance.
The discussion after davening was who was going to the Kids in Lakewood, Teaneck, Monsey. Hewlett or EY for the Yomin Noraim. Mamma and Papa are stuck living in the same OOT dying community. They successfully raised and educated their children, sent them to the finest Yeshivos and Seminaries, married them off and funded their down payments in their new homes. Most would like to move and live near children and grandchildren, BUT>>>>>>
the men must continue to run the family businesses and professional practices that are supporting all these “adult” children and their families in their new locations. A generation ago, we went away to be educated, but came back to our communities and family/businesses. This is no longer the OOT norm.My observations are
– OOT move to in town or suburbs, wanting to be near shuls and schools
– in town moves to greater lakewood/monsey to get a bigger & cheaper apartment and get away from gangsters
– lakewood moves oot to get jobs in jewish schools
– some lakewoodians get richer and moves to Toms River and then correct you when you mention that they are from lakewoodBut being actively involved in teaching those people.
And Chasiduses other than Chabad expect members to already have the required level of observance?
In my experience with Chabad, limited to two communities and chabad.org, although they provide help with increasing and maintaining knowledge and mitzvah observance, there’s little to no pressure or criticism.
Dovid, I am not sure what you mean – do you mean that it is wrong that they are not criticizing the students? Why should they as long as they are able to teach?
… do you mean that it is wrong that they [Chabad] are not criticizing the students?
I’m not criticizing Chabad. I was just trying to understand the previous post which stated that Chabad is unlike other Chasiduses.
> Chabad is unlike other Chasiduses.
If a not-very-observant person in US comes to almost any non-Chabad shul, be it chassidish, yeshivish, MO, he’ll very likely be ignored or looked at suspiciously. Not so @ Chabad.
Very visual picture for me: I was staying for several months at a small midwestern town in the 90s. The shul consisted of old locals and similarly old Russians who lived in a nearby subsidized housing. The latter were sitting by themselves in a corner not really understanding the davening. Once a gabbai was out of town, and a loal chabadnik was substituting. He called all Russians for leining, spending several minutes reading brochos with each of them. All locals were totally confused why their usual order was not honored.
I disagree with the premise that the OOT communities are generally being emptied out in Lakewood. Those that are thriving and used to be considered OOT have now reached “mid-town” level. Cleveland, Chicago, Baltimore, South Florida, Waterbury, Dallas, Atlanta etc. are not loosing most of their families to Lakewood, but are instead growing and thriving. Places like Omaha, Harrisburg, West Hartford, Kansas City etc. may not be thriving, but their families are not picking up and moving to Lakewood.
Perhaps the main community that is draining into Lakewood is Brooklyn, which perhaps could now be classified as OOT….
Rocky: Even the OOT communities that are treading water and holding a steady frum population, often are simply experiencing no rate of growth, despite the obvious fact that the frum community B”H has a strong population growth rate. This is because even in those OOT communities many (even if not all) of the younger and newlyweds move to the Lakewood area.
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