Pandemic amnesty

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  • #2137627
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Last week a professor published a article saying that we declare a pandemic amnesty because it was all done with good intentions even if its now know that almost all restictions were either not effective or overkill, this idea was also push by Randi Weingarten of the UFT.
    There is no question that there was major repercussions to the lockdown, children test scores plummeted, businesses were shut down, office buildings remain vacant, in our community a lot of hard feeling remain, neighbors informed on neighbors, people were ostracized, shuls lost members. etc.
    The question is should we let bygones be bygones or should we demand accountability?

    #2137691
    Goldilocks
    Participant

    Accountability for what?
    There’s no question that there were many wrongs done during the pandemic, sometimes with good intentions, sometimes not.
    Some of these wrongs are easily forgivable; others, less so.

    #2137697
    philosopher
    Participant

    What about the poison shots? Fraudci and co., including Bill Gates and the CDC, have caused the death and harm to millions of individuals, not only through the “lab leak” of COVID-19 but also the forced “vaccinations”; the vicious forced “vaccine” mandates. Currently doctors who were not only not against the covid poison shots but who liberally gave them to their patients, are reporting many adverse events including an abnormal amount of deaths which they attribute to the covid poison shots. The murderers are getting away with murder.

    #2137699
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @Goldilocks
    Here are five for starters.
    1. Test scores in the celler because schools were closed for an extended period of time, in spite of the fact there was not a idota of evidence that children have a high rate of transmission.
    2. Commerce came to a halt because of lock down causing a slew of businesses to close.
    3. Shuls lost members and others closed because of lockdown.
    4. People lost jobs for refusal to vacinate.
    5. Office building were empty and still are because of remote work

    #2137703
    smerel
    Participant

    >>>The question is should we let bygones be bygones or should we demand accountability?

    We absolutely should demand accountability. Even if there were intentions that the road to gehonim is paved with (good ones)

    An amnesty would prevent anyone from learning lessons.

    Think of Bill de Blasio and Coumo who told us we can’t daven in a minyan or send our children to school or keep businesses open, while he encouraged violating these rules for the sake of the George Floyd protests. You want an amnesty for that? And didn’t De Blasio refuse to give an amnesty to shuls, schools and struggling businesses after the Supreme Court declared the red zones unconstitutional? He and his ilk deserve an amnesty? Not in this world and not in the next.

    And what about emergency powers which gave our would-be totalitarians like Cuomo license to exercise total control over citizens who used to be protected by the Constitution. If nothing else, legislate to eliminate that from ever happening again.

    And putting politics aside what about the destruction to the sacred belief in science those who tried to control us using the lines of “follow the science” or “pro health” policies about what turned out to be junk science with the censored and marginalized voices being correct after all? American trust in scientists plummeted like a rock after covid. Say Ch’v such a thing would happen again. How many people will ignore true scientific and medical due to the recklessness they exhibited last time? How will they regain trust without accountability?

    #2137712
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Smerel – agree completely.
    But there’s also posters like yserbius and AAQ who called some of us pro death among other things. They are not forgiven, haven’t asked for forgiveness and doubtfully even admit they need to. Stuff like that doesn’t just get machila passively

    #2137710
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    You can be sure that if conservatives were in power and controlled the flow of information, the left wouldn’t dream of granting them amnesty. They’d say that they were evil future killing morons.

    #2137718

    As of now, US excess mortality is 15% on par with Poland (UK, Israel is 9, France, Germany 5).

    To what degree this is due to the country medical system or overall organization, I don’t know.
    The timeline suggests that it is only in part to “pre existing condition”: US is higher but within a pack of half of developed countries up to February 2021. So, US was doing almost as well as other reasonable countries. Most of relative decline is from June 2021 to February 2022.
    “Confirmed deaths” statistics give a similar picture.

    So, collective desire to not be bothered cost on the order 100,000 lives.

    I understand people who miss going to stadiums and bars, but I still do not understand Jewish thinking. When avos were confronted with hunger, they would go to Mitzrayim (sic!) to get food at the cost of personal safety. They would not rebel against H’ and say – we are gonna learn Torah in EY, do not bother us with gashmiyus. So, I can’t fathom Jews denying conditions that they observe.
    And, obviously, many gedolim, like R Edelstein, R Henneman took the events seriously.

    Then, the only explanation is that these Jews were convinced that nothing was really happening: people did not die, it is liberals’ fall, they are not fair to us, etc. Those who “identify with Trump” present the most confusing picture – refusing to take vaccines that Trump spent so much effort pushing through government regulations. Among all explanations, Occam razor seem to point to simply uneducated people listening to political radio and websites and following whatever their hearts desire.

    #2137724

    Avira > the left wouldn’t dream of granting them amnesty.

    Not what you referred to, but note that in all countries, sadly, opposition was using pandemic to attack the government for alleged failures. When elected, opposition then switched to accommodating popular opinion. We should demand politicians to do the right things, but we can not rely on their righteousness.

    #2137736
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Just because someone wouldn’t or didn’t take the high road doesn’t mean we shouldn’t.

    #2137743
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    AAQ – is deflecting your feeble attempt at absolution of blame? You do realize that halacha doesn’t your behavior towards someone based on how right you think you are, right?

    #2137745
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I don’t think it’s taking the high road to absolve from guilt people who were clearly unqualified to run a country dictating how we ran our lives during the pandemic. the same big names who let HIV become nationally endemic mismanaged covid – the year HIV became widespread when it could have very easily been stopped should have been the end of fauci’s career.

    #2137754
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    What is interesting to me is that Randi Weingarten of the UFI is now screaming the loudest about amnesty after fighting every attempt to open schools and the test scores show a huge drop, BH the yeshiva had enough sense to continue so the damage was minimal, this in spite of CR members calling them rotzchim.

    #2137756

    Avira, Fauci did not “run the country”, politicians did. American restrictions were on par with other developed countries.

    #2137757

    Syag, I am not sure what are you accusing me of? Expressing my opinion that uncareful behaviors caused deaths and supplying facts to support my opinion? please clarify. As to actions, I did not detain anyone or forced masks on some pure souls. I did help a couple of places to improve their ventilation, I hope it was not a crime. Those who wanted to breath more virus still had enough places to visit.

    #2137811
    user176
    Participant

    Curious, those of the opinion that Covid vaccines are poison etc., how do you believe we reached this point when the Pandemic is pretty much over? Did it just go away? Did vaccines have anything to do with with it?

    #2137819
    philosopher
    Participant

    user176, I knew this will happen…I knew herd immunity will be attributed to the “vaccine” that was proven to not prevent transmition nor even prevent people from getting covid…lol.

    #2137831
    smerel
    Participant

    >>>how do you believe we reached this point when the Pandemic is pretty much over?

    I am vaccinated and 100% pro the corona vaccine (although I do believe that some of what it’s opponents are saying is true as well and would not vaccinate a child with it)

    The answer to your question is that Corona was fading away in frequency and intensity by the time the vaccines became common. Not only that, almost all the vaccinated people I know -myself included- ended up getting Corona anyway. When was the last time you heard of someone who wasn’t vaccinated dying of Corona?

    To be clear I’m still 100% pro vaccine and do believe it was a factor in diminishing corona both in frequency and intensity. I just don’t think the current situation verses April 2020 in itself proves the effectiveness of the vaccine.

    #2137851

    phil > herd immunity will be attributed to the “vaccine” that was proven to not prevent transmition nor even prevent people from getting covid

    Neither current vaccines, nor having covid, prevents getting or transmitting it several months later, especially with the virus mutating. The difference is noticeable. In one shul I daven, there are people who were mostly careless. I feel sometimes that I am at a smoker’s club as every couple of minutes you hear a chronic cough, mostly young men. In another shul, where people preferred vaccines to natural immunity and this happens way less.

    #2137849

    smerel, vaccine absolutely made a difference. Death rate fell 10x between December 2020 and June 2021. Vaccine was less effective in time when Delta came along. Israelis provided that data to Pfizer and they recommended boosting and, after initial negative reaction from Fauci et al, data prevailed …
    As of now, death rates are at the lowest level, same as two previous summers but holding for a number of months. It would be lower if people would be taking boosters (Europe is 70%, Israel 58% US is 40%) and getting Paxlovid when they get sick.

    #2137862
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “In one shul I daven, there are people who were mostly careless. I feel sometimes that I am at a smoker’s club as every couple of minutes you hear a chronic cough, mostly young men.”

    I’ll call your bluff. Total BS. My limud zchus is that you’ve convinced yourself it’s true so you don’t even know you’re lying.

    #2137867

    ok, bli neder, I’ll count next times.

    #2137893
    Goldilocks
    Participant

    Syag Lchochma, why don’t you believe it?
    Most of us know people who are, unfortunately, careless with their health and the health of those around them.
    Just because you don’t want to believe something doesn’t mean it isn’t true.
    Of course, this doesn’t excuse calling people names, and it certainly doesn’t excuse hurting people.

    #2137900
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Goldilocks you missed his point.

    And I never chose to believe things based on what I want, you’re just throwing that out there with no basis. I don’t want to believe plenty of what I read here but I go look into it. He was making up facts about the frum community in order to slander them. It’s an old habit and he doesn’t seem interested or able to stop.

    #2137996
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Gov DeSantis was excoriated for keeping schools and businesses open. Turns out he was right.
    Does Gov Cuomo deserve a pardon after needlessly causing thousands of deaths in nursing homes by forcing homes not prepared for it to accept transfers from hospitals. He forbade nursing homes from testing the transfers. Almost as bad, children and spouses of the survivors were forbidden to visit.
    To my mind, I’ve the best proof that, unlike other vaccines, the Covid vaccines don’t prevent transmission or reinvention. I’ve been double vaccinated and double boosted, yet the hospital waiting room ( I’m not the patient ) I’m sitting in still requires me to wear a mask.

    #2138013
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Always_Ask_Questions,

    “In one shul I daven, there are people who were mostly careless. I feel sometimes that I am at a smoker’s club as every couple of minutes you hear a chronic cough, mostly young men. In another shul, where people preferred vaccines to natural immunity and this happens way less. “

    Putting aside that I find it hard to believe you personally would go into such a shul, given your singular obsession with the R rate and that you once posted that you spent most of the pandemic so isolated that you didn’t even really have much experience with persistent mask wearing, I find it odd that you maintain a double standard on usage of anecdotes. When Syag Lchochma observed that the shul near her that had the least restrictive Covid policies had no Covid fatalities, you dismissed it out of hand as anecdotal. But here you happily throw out an anecdote. But it’s not even a good anecdote, as your observations could be biased in numerous ways. For example, your ears were likely more attuned to coughing in the shul you deemed to be less safe. Or perhaps both shuls had 3 coughers in attendance but at one shul they were right behind you and at the other they were across the room. Perhaps you attended one shul in the summer when coughing was less prevalent overall, and the other in the fall when coughing was more prevalent overall.

    #2138008
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    smerel,

    “what about the destruction to the sacred belief in science”

    I have to object strongly to this notion. Sacred belief? Since when is science sacred? It is a systematic method of study of the physical world around us, pursued by human beings and subject to the limitations of human beings. And what does belief have to do with science? What you are referring to as Science is a modern day avoda zara.

    “those who tried to control us using the lines of “follow the science” or “pro health” policies about what turned out to be junk science with the censored and marginalized voices being correct after all? American trust in scientists plummeted like a rock after covid.”

    With the astonishing amount of conflict of interest present in the profit driven corporate-governmental health apparatus, American trust should rightly plummet.

    #2138042
    Yserbius123
    Participant


    @syag-lchochma
    I don’t understand. Are you saying that you don’t believe that a shul exists where the klal was careless about Corona during the height of the pandemic?

    #2137878
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    let focus on our community, there was a rabbi from the 5 towns who said that if anyone said kaddish during covid it was worthless and viilified any who dared to daven with a minyan and threatened a Rav who kept his shul open, there were people in the community who were active in misira, some school were closed for the duration. Do we forgive and forget?

    PS the one person who learned the hard way that actions means something is Billl Deblasio who could not get support from the frum rank and file for any elected office after the way he acted to the frum people duriing covid.

    #2138050
    smerel
    Participant

    >>>Sacred belief? Since when is science sacred?

    I was being sarcastic. In the parts of the secular world where corona was overdone both belief in science and the LGBT community are sacred by them.

    >>>And what does belief have to do with science?

    For those mentioned above their trust in science is a belief system that persists even in the face of strong contrary evidence.

    As above I was being sarcastic and I not going to debate this with the believers

    #2138054
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    smerel,

    “I was being sarcastic.”

    Sorry, that went completely over my head.

    #2138057
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Yserbius123,

    “Are you saying that you don’t believe that a shul exists where the klal was careless about Corona during the height of the pandemic?”

    How do you define careless? I know of a shul that closed a little while after Purim 2020, and then reopened in time for Shavuos. Seating was spread out so tables were 6ft apart, doors to the lobby and exits to outside from the beis medrash were left open for increased ventilation, attendance stayed within the government-imposed limits, hand sanitizer was placed on every table, boxes of masks were provided, and signs were posted directing people to wear masks indoors. But the shul did not actively throw anyone out who wasn’t wearing a mask, so some daveners wore, some did not. And no drastic changes to the normal manner of the davening were made (e.g., having the baal koreh take all of the aliyos) This shul was maligned intensely within the community for daring to reopen, and for being “careless” once other places started reopening. Some mosrim took it upon themselves to harass the shul with repeated calls to the health department, including one made on Shabbos intended to disrupt the davening.

    #2138126
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @Avram-in-MD I define careless in way that @Goldilocks described his/her shul.

    #2138151
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @yserbius,
    “This shul was maligned intensely within the community for daring to reopen, and for being “careless” once other places started reopening. Some mosrim took it upon themselves to harass the shul with repeated calls to the health department, including one made on Shabbos intended to disrupt the davening.” so what you’re saying is that these lowlifes who harassed the shul should not be held accountable?

    #2138184

    given unexpected hunger for data in this group, I verified my early unscientific survey on Shabbos with a more systematic data collection … I started making mental notes by brochos, continued while waiting for the 10th, and finished by shmone esre. Hope my small (*) decrease in kavanah is justified by this small contribution to science.
    (*) small decrease as my initial kavana was not high enough

    So, out of 10 people, I a priori evaluated 6 is uncareful and 4 as careful based on previous behaviors. Out of 6 uncarefuls, 3 were no sound, 2 (adult + teenager) were dry-coughing every 10 minutes, 1 (adult) – every 20 minutes. Multiple coughs b-toch-dibur were counted as one. Out of 4 carefuls, all no sound.

    As they say in exploratory analysis, this data is of course not enough to make any conclusions, but it is sufficient to define what to collect for. So, others are welcome to follow the same protocol: evaluate people in advance, then count cough rates per group.

    #2138187

    common, was this Rav in your community, or was he a 5-town Rav who decided to pasken in your community? I would say if he is a Rav in your community, he has a right to do so and you should listen. If he is a visitor, not clear what his authority is.

    It also depends on what the government rules were at the time and place. As I mentioned before, R Henneman advocated super-careful compliance with the early decrees of no-minyanim-in-the-yard. I do not know what was his position later on.

    #2138188

    Avram > the shul did not actively throw anyone out who wasn’t wearing a mask,

    If this was pre-vaccine and there were older people in the shul, the question would be how big the shul was. If it is a huge hall with enough place for people to separate, this would be fine. If it is “6 ft” theoretically, but 3 in practice – in 1 dimension, with people being close together, then it was not responsible at that time.

    #2138191

    a good question about florida rules and their effect:
    Florida comes up 13th worst among all states in mortality, but there are so many details, of course …
    I looked up several comparisons with California, they are a little difficult due to differences in ages and behaviors. One reasonable one shows:
    FL was less stringent from Fall 2020 to Spring 2022. FL was MORE stringent in summer 2020 and now it is the same.
    Vaccination rate for older people about same, but in FL less for young people
    FL has 2-5% lower mortality for 75+ olds, 1-4% higher for 55-75 yo, 30%-50% for other adult years and 2.4x higher for kids 5-14.

    Of course, elderly mortality is much higher, but FL elderly are healthier and have lower mortality in all causes. Also, FL elderly less likely to live with younger people, so they did not have virus attacking them at home.

    On the other hand, FL youngsters are poorer than CA. CA had higher suicide rates for ages 44 and lower.

    So, my guess is that FL policies did not affect elderly much, but added mortality, and other effects, to younger people – I don’t think poverty difference account for 30-50% difference in adults and for sure 2x difference in school children. And, remind you, US on a whole is 1.5-2x worse than comparable European countries, so CA is not a gold standard here

    Up to you to decide whether this was worth 1.7% better economic performance, just wanted to clarify what the facts are.

    source: California Versus Florida, a Covid Reckoning: Justin Fox, Bloomberg Tax, May 7, 2022,

    #2138245
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @common-saychel @Avram-in-MD

    I see now that I referenced the wrong user. It wasn’t @goldilocks, it was @always-ask-questions

    The difference is noticeable. In one shul I daven, there are people who were mostly careless. I feel sometimes that I am at a smoker’s club as every couple of minutes you hear a chronic cough, mostly young men. In another shul, where people preferred vaccines to natural immunity and this happens way less.


    @syag-lchochma
    claimed that was a lie. Lying about what? That there were shuls who were careless and rife with Corona? We all knew these cases, even if some of us chose to block it from our memories. There were definitely shuls I saw where no one wore masks, and people were walking around coughing, while the mispallelim of the more careful shuls stayed home if they had any sort of illness. I’m not sure what part of the line I quoted can possibly be untruthful.

    And for those who chose not to be moichel me, I do not believe I require mechila. There are people who demanded that everyone return to normal mere weeks after the virus started raging and long before anyone knew anything about the virus. These individuals insisted that wearing masks is more dangerous than walking around with asymptomatic COVID and that the vaccine is a lie and should not be given to anyone. I can only assume that these people saw Pesach of 2020, where multiple frum papers had to add extra pages for shivas and levayas, was some sort of peak that klal Yisroel needs to aspire to. So yeah, pro-death. I guess in hindsight it’s a little harsh, but I fail to see how it’s inaccurate.

    #2138258
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @yseribius “I do not believe I require mechila.” wow hubris personified

    #2138271

    common, mechila usually assumes damage done in some form. I may not have followed all threads – did yeserbius damage your wealth or blood pressure in some way?

    #2138293
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @Always_Ask_Questions I’m not sure if it was @common-saychel, but a while ago I was in an argument with a user about COVID restrictions. This user promoted all sorts of dangerous nonsense, including the idea that there should be zero COVID restrictions and that masks are physically harmful. He/she kept on referring to myself as part of the “pro-mask” or “pro-vaxx” group (one of those, I don’t recall). In return I said something along the lines of “If there are two groups, one is pro-mask the other is pro-death”. I think think that was the conversation and that is what @common-saychel is upset about and does not want to give me the mechila I don’t need.

    #2138322
    RebYid613
    Participant

    Who is this guy

    #2138409
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @yserbius, I don’t recall that thread, but stupid comments are the norm here, compared to the people who were snitching of the neighbors, a Rabbi who threatened another Rav who reopened his shul, or a shul in Florida who threatened members after they daven in a porch minyan, your pretty mild.
    Question is should we forgive and forget?

    #2138410
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Yserbius123,

    “I define careless in way that [Always_Ask_Questions] described his/her shul.”

    But he didn’t define it. He just stated they were careless. Would you say the shul I described in my post was careless?

    #2138490
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Interesting, that Godal Huju, Reb E and the left of centers are MIA on this, guilt feelings maybe???

    #2138511
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @common-saychel What guilty feelings do you think they have? I’m not familiar with the individual views of individual CR users.

    #2138509
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    It’s interesting that people are parsing dry coughs but noone has responded to Cuomo’s clear guilt regarding the nursing home deaths ( while being praised by the media for his handling of the pandemic).

    #2138502
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @Avram-in-MD If the shul took precautions but did not enforce them, I would not say they were careless. And I would not defend the people that snitched on them to the health department. However, you and I both know (and there’s no use in denying it) that plenty of shuls just went “Oh well nothing we could have done” to all the dead, hospitalized, lung, and brain damaged people and opened up in the early summer of 2020 with zero precautions and completely defying any health department regulations.

    #2138601

    common > who threatened members after they daven in a porch minyan,

    Again, R Henneman said that people should not even daven in several nearby yards when it was verbotten by the government. Presuming someone was following R Henneman (I am not saying this was the case, who knows), can a Rav or a beis din enforce their opinions?

    We in our days are used to beis din limiting itself to kashrus and gittin, but public policy is obviously within the beis din rights. Again, I am not litigating this particular case, speaking generalities.

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