Pandemic amnesty

Accountability for what?
There’s no question that there were many wrongs done during the pandemic, sometimes with good intentions, sometimes not.
Some of these wrongs are easily forgivable; others, less so.

Smerel – agree completely.
But there’s also posters like yserbius and AAQ who called some of us pro death among other things. They are not forgiven, haven’t asked for forgiveness and doubtfully even admit they need to. Stuff like that doesn’t just get machila passively

As of now, US excess mortality is 15% on par with Poland (UK, Israel is 9, France, Germany 5).

To what degree this is due to the country medical system or overall organization, I don’t know.
The timeline suggests that it is only in part to “pre existing condition”: US is higher but within a pack of half of developed countries up to February 2021. So, US was doing almost as well as other reasonable countries. Most of relative decline is from June 2021 to February 2022.
“Confirmed deaths” statistics give a similar picture.

So, collective desire to not be bothered cost on the order 100,000 lives.

I understand people who miss going to stadiums and bars, but I still do not understand Jewish thinking. When avos were confronted with hunger, they would go to Mitzrayim (sic!) to get food at the cost of personal safety. They would not rebel against H’ and say – we are gonna learn Torah in EY, do not bother us with gashmiyus. So, I can’t fathom Jews denying conditions that they observe.
And, obviously, many gedolim, like R Edelstein, R Henneman took the events seriously.

Then, the only explanation is that these Jews were convinced that nothing was really happening: people did not die, it is liberals’ fall, they are not fair to us, etc. Those who “identify with Trump” present the most confusing picture – refusing to take vaccines that Trump spent so much effort pushing through government regulations. Among all explanations, Occam razor seem to point to simply uneducated people listening to political radio and websites and following whatever their hearts desire.

Just because someone wouldn’t or didn’t take the high road doesn’t mean we shouldn’t.

I don’t think it’s taking the high road to absolve from guilt people who were clearly unqualified to run a country dictating how we ran our lives during the pandemic. the same big names who let HIV become nationally endemic mismanaged covid – the year HIV became widespread when it could have very easily been stopped should have been the end of fauci’s career.

Avira, Fauci did not “run the country”, politicians did. American restrictions were on par with other developed countries.

Curious, those of the opinion that Covid vaccines are poison etc., how do you believe we reached this point when the Pandemic is pretty much over? Did it just go away? Did vaccines have anything to do with with it?

>>>how do you believe we reached this point when the Pandemic is pretty much over?

I am vaccinated and 100% pro the corona vaccine (although I do believe that some of what it’s opponents are saying is true as well and would not vaccinate a child with it)

The answer to your question is that Corona was fading away in frequency and intensity by the time the vaccines became common. Not only that, almost all the vaccinated people I know -myself included- ended up getting Corona anyway. When was the last time you heard of someone who wasn’t vaccinated dying of Corona?

To be clear I’m still 100% pro vaccine and do believe it was a factor in diminishing corona both in frequency and intensity. I just don’t think the current situation verses April 2020 in itself proves the effectiveness of the vaccine.

smerel, vaccine absolutely made a difference. Death rate fell 10x between December 2020 and June 2021. Vaccine was less effective in time when Delta came along. Israelis provided that data to Pfizer and they recommended boosting and, after initial negative reaction from Fauci et al, data prevailed …
As of now, death rates are at the lowest level, same as two previous summers but holding for a number of months. It would be lower if people would be taking boosters (Europe is 70%, Israel 58% US is 40%) and getting Paxlovid when they get sick.

ok, bli neder, I’ll count next times.

Goldilocks you missed his point.

And I never chose to believe things based on what I want, you’re just throwing that out there with no basis. I don’t want to believe plenty of what I read here but I go look into it. He was making up facts about the frum community in order to slander them. It’s an old habit and he doesn’t seem interested or able to stop.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“In one shul I daven, there are people who were mostly careless. I feel sometimes that I am at a smoker’s club as every couple of minutes you hear a chronic cough, mostly young men. In another shul, where people preferred vaccines to natural immunity and this happens way less. “

Putting aside that I find it hard to believe you personally would go into such a shul, given your singular obsession with the R rate and that you once posted that you spent most of the pandemic so isolated that you didn’t even really have much experience with persistent mask wearing, I find it odd that you maintain a double standard on usage of anecdotes. When Syag Lchochma observed that the shul near her that had the least restrictive Covid policies had no Covid fatalities, you dismissed it out of hand as anecdotal. But here you happily throw out an anecdote. But it’s not even a good anecdote, as your observations could be biased in numerous ways. For example, your ears were likely more attuned to coughing in the shul you deemed to be less safe. Or perhaps both shuls had 3 coughers in attendance but at one shul they were right behind you and at the other they were across the room. Perhaps you attended one shul in the summer when coughing was less prevalent overall, and the other in the fall when coughing was more prevalent overall.

@syag-lchochma I don’t understand. Are you saying that you don’t believe that a shul exists where the klal was careless about Corona during the height of the pandemic?

>>>Sacred belief? Since when is science sacred?

I was being sarcastic. In the parts of the secular world where corona was overdone both belief in science and the LGBT community are sacred by them.

>>>And what does belief have to do with science?

For those mentioned above their trust in science is a belief system that persists even in the face of strong contrary evidence.

As above I was being sarcastic and I not going to debate this with the believers

Yserbius123,

“Are you saying that you don’t believe that a shul exists where the klal was careless about Corona during the height of the pandemic?”

How do you define careless? I know of a shul that closed a little while after Purim 2020, and then reopened in time for Shavuos. Seating was spread out so tables were 6ft apart, doors to the lobby and exits to outside from the beis medrash were left open for increased ventilation, attendance stayed within the government-imposed limits, hand sanitizer was placed on every table, boxes of masks were provided, and signs were posted directing people to wear masks indoors. But the shul did not actively throw anyone out who wasn’t wearing a mask, so some daveners wore, some did not. And no drastic changes to the normal manner of the davening were made (e.g., having the baal koreh take all of the aliyos) This shul was maligned intensely within the community for daring to reopen, and for being “careless” once other places started reopening. Some mosrim took it upon themselves to harass the shul with repeated calls to the health department, including one made on Shabbos intended to disrupt the davening.

common, was this Rav in your community, or was he a 5-town Rav who decided to pasken in your community? I would say if he is a Rav in your community, he has a right to do so and you should listen. If he is a visitor, not clear what his authority is.

It also depends on what the government rules were at the time and place. As I mentioned before, R Henneman advocated super-careful compliance with the early decrees of no-minyanim-in-the-yard. I do not know what was his position later on.

a good question about florida rules and their effect:
Florida comes up 13th worst among all states in mortality, but there are so many details, of course …
I looked up several comparisons with California, they are a little difficult due to differences in ages and behaviors. One reasonable one shows:
FL was less stringent from Fall 2020 to Spring 2022. FL was MORE stringent in summer 2020 and now it is the same.
Vaccination rate for older people about same, but in FL less for young people
FL has 2-5% lower mortality for 75+ olds, 1-4% higher for 55-75 yo, 30%-50% for other adult years and 2.4x higher for kids 5-14.

Of course, elderly mortality is much higher, but FL elderly are healthier and have lower mortality in all causes. Also, FL elderly less likely to live with younger people, so they did not have virus attacking them at home.

On the other hand, FL youngsters are poorer than CA. CA had higher suicide rates for ages 44 and lower.

So, my guess is that FL policies did not affect elderly much, but added mortality, and other effects, to younger people – I don’t think poverty difference account for 30-50% difference in adults and for sure 2x difference in school children. And, remind you, US on a whole is 1.5-2x worse than comparable European countries, so CA is not a gold standard here

Up to you to decide whether this was worth 1.7% better economic performance, just wanted to clarify what the facts are.

source: California Versus Florida, a Covid Reckoning: Justin Fox, Bloomberg Tax, May 7, 2022,

@Always_Ask_Questions I’m not sure if it was @common-saychel, but a while ago I was in an argument with a user about COVID restrictions. This user promoted all sorts of dangerous nonsense, including the idea that there should be zero COVID restrictions and that masks are physically harmful. He/she kept on referring to myself as part of the “pro-mask” or “pro-vaxx” group (one of those, I don’t recall). In return I said something along the lines of “If there are two groups, one is pro-mask the other is pro-death”. I think think that was the conversation and that is what @common-saychel is upset about and does not want to give me the mechila I don’t need.

It’s interesting that people are parsing dry coughs but noone has responded to Cuomo’s clear guilt regarding the nursing home deaths ( while being praised by the media for his handling of the pandemic).

common > who threatened members after they daven in a porch minyan,

Again, R Henneman said that people should not even daven in several nearby yards when it was verbotten by the government. Presuming someone was following R Henneman (I am not saying this was the case, who knows), can a Rav or a beis din enforce their opinions?

We in our days are used to beis din limiting itself to kashrus and gittin, but public policy is obviously within the beis din rights. Again, I am not litigating this particular case, speaking generalities.