March 17, 2009 3:22 am at 3:22 am #1008899
anon for this: read the original post about it. in the same sentence i said i dont believe all the stories. check your facts before you bash. it definitely is the best decision for them. no work.March 17, 2009 3:26 am at 3:26 am #1008900
anon: i said these two statements at different times but right after said i dont believe them
i heard a story once that one time the hotel kitchen staff put out pure chametz. the chametz they were going to serve motzai yom tov, they accidentaly served it on pesach by the buffet. when they realized they grabbed it back and asked the mashgiach if they should announce anything and he said no, because then no one will ever come back. but stories are stories and though i dont believe them all, kashrus at these hotels has always been questioned “
“baal kishron- i made that up. i really have no idea. i shouldnt have done that but i am sure some of these hotels have good kashrus. but there are always stories circulating in the velt about these hotels kashrus. i dont believe all of them but it gives the impression kashrus at these places is not what it should be, although as i said before i am sure there are some that are fine.”March 17, 2009 3:36 am at 3:36 am #1008901
flatbush27, if you really didn’t believe those stories, why did you mention them at all? As you yourself write, you meant to imply that even if the stories aren’t true, it’s likely that the kashrus at pesach hotels is compromised (although, you allow, “some” hotels may be okay). Sorry, but I’d rather credit the actions of people such as Rabbi Frand, Rabbi Horowitz, and Rabbi Krohn than some stories you may have heard.March 17, 2009 3:45 am at 3:45 am #1008903
anon: rumors and stories of kashrus are always cropping up when talking about these hotels. they dont come from thin air. jothar said he had friends who had horror stories about these places. as i said before i am sure a number of these hotels are fine and hopefully and probably these are the places that these Rabbonim go too. i am not going to say most hotels are ok, or most arent because i have no idea. i said some. i thought that was a neutral word which doesnt imply a number or a majority or a minorityMarch 17, 2009 4:04 am at 4:04 am #1008905
Kashrus in hotels has gotten better recently due to the velt becoming frummer, more knowledgeable, and more demanding in their kashrus. That doesn’t change the metzius of whether or not hotels are a good idea. The rabbis who go to hotels usually are there for free as part of the attraction (we have these singers, we have these rabbis, glatt kosher food, swimming and a daf yomi shiur). I spoke to someone whose zeidy used to run one of these hotels, and I was told that they used to be for singles, or older couples with no strength to make their own. Now it has become the “in” thing.
For those who don’t go- if you won a free trip to a Pesach hotel as a Chinese auction prize, would you go, or would you reject it as not being bederech yisroel sabah? Honestly speaking, I realized that I would be sorely tempted to throw my principles out the window if I won. Of course, I still go to the in-laws, so I still get to lock up and leave, just without 24 hour tea room.March 17, 2009 10:57 am at 10:57 am #1008906SJSinNYCMember
Flatbush, I think you need to learn an important lesson. Its not always WHAT you say, but also HOW you say it. Also, when you make up stories, itmakes it harder to take what you say seriously in the future. How will we know when you are telling the truth?
As to the hotels – lets assume for a moment kashrus is NOT a problem. If I am a big baal tzedaka, why shouldnt I take my family someplace nice for Pesach? Why shouldn’t we go somewhere different and exciting. The kids have off from school – they can take good trips as a family on chol hamoed…
When I was 14, my family went to Florida for Shavuos. Our non-religious cousins joined us and let me tell you! It was one of the most spiritual Shavuos experiences I’ve ever had. Your holiday is really about what YOU make of it, not the exact location you are sitting at.
I know a family that speeds through their sedar just to get it over with. I highly doubt that it would matter if they were in a hotel or not. My family likes to sing and talk and spend a good amount of time…we would do that anywhere.
Jothar, I absolutely would consider going! I don’t know if I could leave my family though…But then again, I personally am not against hotels.March 17, 2009 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #1008907tzippiMember
For people who can, why not? And if some people would decide to stay home, for sure they’d be spending more than you and I, on the cleaning help, food, possible wait staff etc. That is how they live. And if they have the money, they should live on a higher standard than you and I. For their own sakes and that of their family, it is healthy to live a little lower than they can but again, that is way beyond how most of us live. Fargin a little.March 17, 2009 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #1008908PhyllisMember
SJSinNYC, I think going away for Shavuos is diff than going away for Pesach. Pesach is one Yom Tov where people are a little more stringent with hechsherim than they are all year round. Not to say that I am against hotels, its just that I dont think it would give over the most positive message for the children.March 17, 2009 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #1008909mamashtakahMember
Let’s make sure that the families going away are paying full tuition to their kids’ schools. If not, then stay home.March 17, 2009 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #1008910
sjs- you need to learn a lesson. right after i said the story i said stories are stories and you cant believe them all. personally, i believe it because i know a waiter who worked their but since its very far fetched i attached a disclaimer. i am sick and tired of people repeatedly mentioning the story i said when in the same breath i said you cant believe them all. sjs, either put your glasses on when you read or maybe you need to read it more than once to get it throughMarch 17, 2009 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #1008911
one goy almost caused Yidden to eat treif last night and these hotels employ hundreds of goyim who couldnt give a hoot about kashrus.March 17, 2009 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #1008912squeakParticipant
If full tuition meant paying your fair share, then I’d agree with you wholeheartedly. But since full tuition means paying around 200% of your fair share (depending on the whims and calculations of your local orthodox administrator), I disagree that paying other peoples’ tuition burden comes before your own needs in all cases.March 17, 2009 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #1008914
Jothar: I agree with those who are saying that the Chag is best spent ideally with your own Rav, in your own home with family; or at the very least with family in their homes.
We work with enthusiasm so that Pesach in our home is k’halacha, l’chatchila, and more, and knowing that and being with family and invited guests makes for an incredible simcha. So, yes Jothar, offer me an all expense paid Pesach at a hotel and it would be my pleasure to refuse.
For the life of me, I couldn’t imagine myself as going out of Mitzrayim when at a sedar in a hotel.
And I also have chaveirim who work as mashgeechim at hotel kitchens both during the year and especially for Pesach. First, they have no Sedar, no Pesach, and no Shabbos for themselves. But the money is very good, so that’s the trade off.
But they ALWAYS come back with horror stories; even of things that happen right in front of the masgeeach’s own eyes (one recent story is that one kitchen staff was slicing meats on the electric slicer and had a stick of butter hidden and would apply it to the blade to make it work smoother).March 17, 2009 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #1008915lesschumrasParticipant
This thread is a good example of something that I don’t onderstand about the Coffee Room. People, on most subjects, make clear choices as to what is best for them. I understand why people stay home, and until fairly recently, with the exception of going to in-laws, it was the only choice. What I don’t understand are the objections to other people going away.
Can someone explain why does that bother them? Does anyone think that a comment here will change anyones mind on any subject? Will anyone start or stop using Chalav Yisroael or Cholov Staam? Daven with or without a hat? Wear or won’t wear a costume on Purim?March 17, 2009 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #1008916
lesschumras: Can you explain why someone is bothered because people are bothered that Jews: drink Cholov Staam; daven without a hat; wear a costume on Purim; or who go away for Pesach? You’re not going to change their opinion.March 17, 2009 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1008917
cherrybim, what bother people like lesschumras, me etc is the condescending judgmentalism with which non-yeshivish/chareidi people are greeted in this room. Personally, I think we deserve far more kavod that we are given. After all, please consider how boring this CR might be without us. We make espresso out of what would otherwise be lukewarm Maxwell House.March 17, 2009 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #1008918
cantoresq: For the most part non-yeshivish/chareidi people here handle themselves quite well, mainly because they can google as well as anyone so it’s hard to fool the olam and eventually the truth prevails.March 17, 2009 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1008919
cherrybim, you wrote, “Certainly in the CR, we are not rashoim, the ikur should be that respect prevails for all, as practiced by gedolim, past and present.”
I very much agree with this point. Do you feel that this ikur is indeed followed in the CR?March 17, 2009 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #1008920
I think there are times when many of us get carried away.March 17, 2009 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1008921
Cherrybim, do ALL who are venerated as gedolim demonstrate that respect to those with whom they disagree? I could give examples, but I think you get my point.March 17, 2009 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1008922
Cherrybim, I agree that being at home is much better. I’m fully aware of the kashrus issues in hotels. Tjhere are also other issues,
Let’s add in another wrinkle here- is going away to Eretz Yisroel and staying in a hotel there the same thing, or is it better? There still is a mitzvah to be oleh regel nowadays, but it means a hotel.March 18, 2009 3:36 am at 3:36 am #1008923
cantoresq: “Gedolim” is used pretty loosely in the CR and in that regard you are correct, some have no respect even for each other.
But the real “Gedolim” or as you said, those who are “venerated as Gedolim”, have attained that status not only because of their gadlus in Torah and Mitzvos and Tzidkus, but also for their tremendous midos “bein adom l’chaveiro”.
Jothar: “is going away to Eretz Yisroel and staying in a hotel there the same thing, or is it better?”
I would have to say that unless you’re going with your whole family, it is not better.
And even then, you can’t compare Jewish life in Bais Hamikdash times or even in Europe to what is gained today from a Pesach together with family in your home and with your Rav. Your batteries are recharged and keeps you going until the next chag.
Of course every situation is different and needs to be evaluated. I’m only citing feelings from my perspective.
At times some of our family members will make other plans for Yom Tov (usually to be with the in-laws); their absence is sorely felt and they are very much missed by the others.March 18, 2009 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #1008924
Well then cherrybim, I must now resort to examples.
***Edited*** there have been many of these discussions in the coffee room before. the topic here is Pesach – Staying Home vs. Going Away. Please remain on topic (this applies to ALL those that are posting). YW Moderator-72March 18, 2009 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #1008926oomisParticipant
For the life of me, I couldn’t imagine myself as going out of Mitzrayim when at a sedar in a hotel.
That’s so funny – because that is PRECISELY what it probably feels like for a woman to be freed from all the work and preparations for yom tov, by going to a hotel! I would think that it would bring that lesson home even more strongly! Amazing how one’s perspective changes from another’s (and I do not go away – I love being in my own home for Pesach).March 18, 2009 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1008927kiruvwifeMember
I humbly suggest that no matter where anyone is going to be for Pesach, to quote a well know speaker “just be kadosh”! However one gets ready for pesach, whatever the amount of money spent, just make sure the goal is being kadosh.March 18, 2009 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #1008928
Nothing can compare to the home experience. There are also other problems with hotels besides kashrus (the recent innocent mistake at the schwarma place just re-inforces the kashrus issues). There are also breaches in tznius when strange families end up sitting together. One factor is that some Pesach books have pushed unnecessary chumros in Pesach cleaning, making Pesach cleaning seem impossible. Plus, many people confuse Pesach cleaning for sporing cleaning, making it a daunting task. Perhaps if the Rabbonim could let everyone know that there is no need for excessive cleaning, people won’t feel as overwhelmed.
Rosh Hashana hotels are even wackier than Pesach hotels. Tekiah! Teruah! Tea room! Who’s going to live? Who’s going to die? Who’s going to tea room?March 18, 2009 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1008929
oomis1105, read Rav Pinchos Scheinberg’s practical piece for women (and men) on how to clean for Pesach( http://www.orchos.org/torah/chagim/pesach/pesachcleaningprint.html).
L’halacha your home is complete in a few hours.
Also, how can you compare the enjoyment you derive when you’ve worked for something as compared to when it’s just handed to you? Freedom here does not mean freedom from work or mitzvos, it means freedom to serve Hashem.March 18, 2009 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1008930bookwormParticipant
One thing I don’t understand about all these debates (or maybe we could call them fights) is different things are good for different people and each person needs to do what’s best for them. As the Noam Elimelch’s brother REb Zushia used to say, “in shamyim they won’t ask me why I wasn’t moshe rabenu they will ask me why I wasn’t reb zushia”
I have a very wise teacher who said, taking advice is like shopping for clothing, you go into the store, you pick something out and you try it on, if it fits you, and the price is right for you, you buy it if not you put it back on the rack and leave.
What do I care if some one else is going away for pesach and I am staying home? Maybe that’s what’s good for them
and why should I care if I am going away for pesach and people who are jelous and can’t afford it slander the idea and kashrus of the placeMarch 18, 2009 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1008931oomisParticipant
Cherrybim, you don’t have to sell this to me. I STAY HOME and do all of it (without cleaning help). And I clean for Pesach, NOT Spring Cleaning. I don’t usually throw chometz on my ceilings and walls, only my kitchen needs that type of extra attention, because I cook there, and things conceivably could go flying, especially when frying food or mixing flour into a cake batter.
But unless you are the woman of the household who is doing all this work, you have no shaychus whatsoever to comment about “enjoyment” that is derived from one’s own efforts. I throw down the gauntlet and issue a challenge to ALL the guys in the CR to tell their wives to take it easy for the next few weeks, and THEY will do all the cleaning, shopping, cooking, and preparations for yom tov (while holding down a job). If they are accustomed to having cleaning help, then the men may likewise have the same amount of help. It will never happen, though, because after one day (ONE day), the men will be tearing what little hair they have left out of their heads, and gratefully give back the assignments to their wives and daughters. Washing a floor, or polishing the leichter is well and good, but you have not been yotzei the chovah of getting ready for Pesach just because you do a couple of chores. In fact, I will make it even easier for you guys. I challenge you to simply take all the kids out of the house every day for several LONG hours, so your wives can work unencumbered by the little ones being underfoot. Let’s see how long that lasts!
Before you decide how fulfilling and wonderful your wives should feel about doing all this avodas perech, try actually DOING it. After one day of doing the real stuff of Pesach preparations, I guarantee that most of you will beg your wives to go away with you for yom tov. I must be nuts, but I still prefer to be home, but I totally get why other normal women prefer to be away and let someone else have their headache. Most people whom I know do not understand why I feel so happy to be home. It is because of the memories of my mother that are generated by every action I take, and especially on erev Pesach. But just because I feel that way does not mean every other woman has to feel that same way.March 18, 2009 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #1008932
cherrybim, you wrote, “Also, how can you compare the enjoyment you derive when you’ve worked for something as compared to when it’s just handed to you? Freedom here does not mean freedom from work or mitzvos, it means freedom to serve Hashem.”
Are you saying that unless one works to prepare for pesach, he can’t appreciate it? My husband doesn’t spend much time on pesach preparations, and even less time preparing for other yomim tovim. Does this mean he can’t appreciate yom tov as much as I do? This year my mother is coming to stay with us for all of pesach; does this mean she’ll appreciate pesach less than she did during the many years she prepared for pesach by herself, with minimal or no cleaning help?March 18, 2009 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #1008933
Anon for This: There is a lot more to Pesach preparations than “just” cleaning, which if done with halacha in mind as per Rav Scheinberg (above) is as difficult as you want make it.
I’m sure every family has its fair distribution of responsibilities which include: cleaning; shopping; baking/buying matzos; changing over the kitchen; kashering; food preparation; selling the chometz; searching for the chometz; burning the chometz; preparing the items for the k’ara; cleaning the Romain; cleaning out the car; etc; etc. You know it’s done when Pesach has arrived; until then there is always something else to do.
And as David S. has learned in a parallel thread, 30 days before the Chag we begin studying the halachos of Pesach so that we are very knowledgeable concerning its laws and customs.
But, you can have an attitude that these are all dreaded chores and who needs it? Or, you can create an excitement in all the involvement of preparing for Pesach: call your Rav with questions (that what he’s there for); give yourself a good head start so that your not overwhelmed; and you should not be doing everything yourself.
I don’t want to pry but with us, our daughters who all come with their families, all take part in the cooking and preparations and that adds to the special delight.
Your mother, on the other hand, will contribute in her own way and will enjoy her Pesach just being with her family for Pesach and the sedar.March 18, 2009 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #1008934
there is really nothing like sitting down at the seder, when you know your entire house is cleaned for Pesach and you did all your cooking. for me its an awesome feeling. if i would go to family for Pesach and do no work, i would definitely feel Pesach but it just wouldnt be the same as me doing all the work but other people are different.March 19, 2009 1:59 am at 1:59 am #1008935
cherrybim, the point I’m trying to make is that one’s enjoyment of pesach is not necessarily proportional to the time and/ or effort one expends on preparations such as cleaning, shopping, cooking, etc. I do have a positive attitude about pesach preparations, and try to convey enthusiasm and excitement to my kids even when there is so much to be done. I also know that pesach cleaning is not the same as spring cleaning, but my young children are k”ah talented at spreading chometz throughout the house so I must keep that in mind.
My mother is visiting us as our guest; her preparations for pesach will not include much cleaning, shopping, or cooking. My husband supports our family financially and doesn’t have much time for pesach cleaning/ food preparation chores (he does help with a few tasks such as vacuuming the vehicles though). And my children are too young to provide much practical help in preparing for yom tov, although the older ones learn about pesach in school. Yet I hope their enjoyment of the yom tov will be as great as mine. I also don’t believe my own enjoyment of the yom tov will be diminished by the fact that I hire someone to help with the pesach cleaning.
And I believe those staying away from home for all of pesach (whether they are visiting relatives or staying in a hotel) are also able to experience a meaningful yom tov, even if they haven’t spent much time on pesach preparations.March 19, 2009 7:24 am at 7:24 am #1008936blubluhParticipant
One thing that has amazed me about Passover get-away packages is that people are able to afford them!
Someone once summarized it for me this way: assuming the cost is roughly $2000/day per person, that works out to about $16K/person for an 8-day stay. By extension, a family of, say, 5 people would have to come up with $80K for that vacation!
Wow!March 19, 2009 8:00 am at 8:00 am #1008937JaxMember
blubluh: One thing that has amazed me about Passover get-away packages is that people are able to afford them!
ever noticed handmade shemurah matzah these days costs over $15- a pound??
isn’t matzah called poor man’s food???March 19, 2009 9:32 am at 9:32 am #1008938proud tattyMember
It is poor man’s food. The guy is poor from all the expenses by the time he sits down to eat his matzoMarch 19, 2009 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #1008939tzippiMember
Assuming it’s two thou a day. I thought that was for the whole package. OK, clothes, tips, incidentals, but still a bit less.March 19, 2009 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #1008940
It’s not $2,000.00 per person per day. The typical price range is from $1,500.00 per person for a very ch eap bare bones program to $3,500.00 per person for something more extravegant than I can describe. Those prices however do not include things lie clothes, getting there and off hotel entertainment.March 19, 2009 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #1008941shindyMember
Jax, I just bought my hand shmurah matzah, $21.50 a pound. I am sure there is cheaper but it’s the only kind my family eats, the pupa tzailim. $15 sounds great to me!March 19, 2009 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #1008942
A pound of hand shmurah matzah is quickly approaching the price of a barrel of oil. Maybe Obama should switch our economy to the shmurah standard and then we’ll krich arois.March 19, 2009 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1008943
I don’t have emperical data, but my sense tells me that as time goes by, going to a hotel for Pesach, as opposed to staying home, will become the more economical of the two options. Using the price increases in hand made shmura matzah and other Pesach specific products as a guide, the cost per person of staying home for Pesach is increasing at a faster rate than the hotels’ per person charge. If that continues, eventually it will be cheaper to stay home. If you consider the rate of proliferation of Pesach programs as compared to the increase in companies manufacturing kosher for Pesach foods for the retail market, that point may come sooner than we might imagine. The increase of programs will serve to drive the cost of going away down. The paucity of manufacturers of food will drive the cost of staying home up, especially when we factor in the food discounts the programs, who buy is huge volume, can get from the manufacturers. Only in America.March 19, 2009 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1008944baal kishronParticipant
ha imagine that i can just imaging the wall street journals headlines in ten years the pesach conglomerate reports quarterly fiscal gains of an estimated 3.2 billion 3 and a half points lower than last quarters due to a sharp increase in the price of shemura matzahMarch 19, 2009 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #1008945moish01Member
can i buy stocks? 😉
cantoresq, i know close to nothing about money and expenses, but i can’t imagine it being more economical to go away to a hotel for anything. never mind pesach. stop trying to convince yourself – you sound a little ridiculous.March 19, 2009 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1008946
Man people can’t recognize a little tongue in cheek when it bites them!!! My point is that staying at home is no groise metzieh either.March 19, 2009 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #1008947shindyMember
I have been at hotels the past four years, trust me when I say it is cheaper to stay at home. I enjoyed the hotel, it was a beautiful experience, but I am looking forward to staying home because when you go to a hotel the sedar room has so many people in it that you can barely hear. One hotel I went to had one thousand people in the dining room each table conducting their own sedar. So, I look forward to hearing my husband say the hagadah and my girls can sing without fear of kol isha. It will be nice and quiet! On the other hand, it is plenty of work, cooking and cleaning, but it will be worth it.March 19, 2009 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #1008948moish01Member
cantoresq, i honestly considered that, but i realized that i don’t think i’ve ever heard you joke about anything around here. so i assumed you were once again serious…March 19, 2009 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1008949YW Moderator-39Member
I find this discussion to be quite interesting. I would not like to add my opinions on the matter (if mods are allowed to do that):
1. I have yet to spend Pesach at a hotel, not to I want to. Imagine the yetzer hara for a person making a meal for 10 people to “justify” the use of a questionable ingredient due to the setback of disposing of the food. Then change the equation for a meal of 500.
2. I am enjoying this back and forth quite a lot, however, there is one point I do want to shoot down. Some of you are claiming that it is not in the spirit of Pesach to spend it in a hotel (referring here as a guest. (A previous poster made a nice point about being hotel staff). Pesach is a holiday where we are supposed to act like kings. We recline, we even have others pour our bechers, as we should not do it ourself (derech cheyrus).
I definitely hear the argument that going to a hotel with choshuva speakers giving insightful shiurim while being catered to the entire time is derech cheyrus and being treated like a king. In fact, I find it weird that people try to argue this point. How is being at home more derech cheyrus and being treated more kingly?March 19, 2009 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #1008950
Sorry mod, but I have yet to hear of a king going to a hotel for Pesach.
Au Contraire, on Pesach we are Kings and Queens, Princes and Princesses in our own palaces, our homes, that is filled with kedusha.March 19, 2009 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #1008951YW Moderator-39Member
Au Contraire, on Pesach we are Kings and Queens, Princes and Princesses in our own palaces, our homes, that is filled with kedusha.
Au Contraire?? Please bring a proof for this . Show me where it says we are not kings and queens in hotels. Is it a Tur? Mishna Berura? The Magid Mishna?
I am on your side. I have not gone, nor do I plan on going (see note #1). I just feel that there is a justifiable claim to going specifically on pesach.March 19, 2009 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #1008952
Es Tu, Mod 39?
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