March 19, 2009 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #1008953YW Moderator-39Member
Then die Caesar.
Not at all, I just like a good debate. Sometimes that dictates that statements be backed up.March 20, 2009 12:43 am at 12:43 am #1008954squeakParticipant
Why “Then die”? The quote is “Then fall”.
For that matter, it is et tu (you too). Not Es Tu. Once is a typo, twice is not.March 20, 2009 1:50 am at 1:50 am #1008955cherrybimParticipant
Es tu ,squeak?
Just kidding…thanks for the correction.March 20, 2009 3:49 am at 3:49 am #1008956JaxMember
it’s kinda funny, the homepage has got an article on the price raise of shmaurah matzah this year!!!
shindy: i just heard tonight, that the shmurah matzah that my family gets costs $18.50 a pound this year!!! you don’t even wanna know how many pounds we get-we only eat shmurah matzos(cause none of us like the square box ones)!!!March 21, 2009 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1008957NobodyMember
Not eveyone goes away to a hotel out of choice.
I know people who cannot make pesach in their home for one reason or another but out of choice would love to have pesach at home. These catagores include those who are physically and / or emotionally unable to cope with the whole pre-pesach upheaval in the house.
Then there are those who are elderly, or single with no family who do not want to intrude, as such, on families at this family-time orientated holiday.
Yes, many people enjoy the cleaning, the stress and everything else that comes with making pesach at home but remember whilst many people go away out of luxury not everyone fall into this catagory and many people have to save from one year to the next to pay to go away for pesach.
I am known to say I would love to go away to some fabulous pesach programme but the reality is if you put the tickets in front of me I would not take them up. I am full of contradictions, I know!
Wherever you are for pesach may you enjoy and please remember those less fortunate then you.
Please G-d next year may we all be in Yerusalayim, Omain.March 22, 2009 12:37 am at 12:37 am #1008958shindyMember
I am really excited about staying home for pesach this year. But I did have very nice Pesachs in the hotels. One year we went to Gateways, it was FANTASTIC. We never took naps on yom tov because we took advantage of the lovely shiurim, they have the best speakers, Rabbi Akiva Tatz and Rabbi Jonathan Reitti and we LOVED Rabbi YY Rubenstien. Wow, what a spiritual yom tov I had, I could learn and daven all day and not worry what I have to cook next. Don’t knock it till you try it!March 22, 2009 1:23 am at 1:23 am #1008959
Nobody, I really liked your post. it was sensitively written.
There is also no mitzvah to work harder than you really want or need to, when it IS available. And there absolutely IS a mitzvah to be b’simcha on our chagim, which is very hard for some women to honestly do when they are physically drained from exhaustion. I am so thankful that the one upside of living in galus is that the second seder night comes after an afternoon nap. (Thouhg I would trade the nap in a heartbeat if Moshoach would come sooner, and we could all be in E”Y).March 22, 2009 1:45 am at 1:45 am #1008960shindyMember
I do want moshiach to come, but I like having the second sedar, cause by the first one I am too pooped to appreciate it. In Israel it is weird making a second sedar when everyone is keeping only one and it’s chol hamoed for them. And last days it is so strange, I am still eating matzah and they are jumping off the buses with bread in their shopping bags!March 23, 2009 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #1008961
Cherrybin, the key phrase in your post is ” and in my opinion, “. I’ve been thoroughly amused by this whole thread because, for the life of me, I don’t understand why it’s so important for you to have people stay home. Is it conceivable that, in their opinion, they enjoy going away? What about young families that go to in-laws? Are they supposed to stay home too?Kol hacovod to you, and more importantly your wife, that you choose to stay home. Just keep in mind that others are entitled to view going away as what is best for them. Just for the record, my family stays home and it does not bother me at all that some of my friends go away.March 23, 2009 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1008962
lesschumras: but maybe your frinds reason for going away is valid. i think alot of people just go away because they dont want to work. for instance i know many people who went away in previous years becuse its just easiar and this yr they cant afford it. is a reason of easiar a valid reason? to some people (elderly, singles, etc) yes. to others noMarch 23, 2009 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #1008963
What is wrong with making things easier? Aren’t you and your family making it easier for yourselves by using electric appliances to both clean and cook? Do you still kasher your own meats? Do you use gas or oil to heat your home or do you schlepp in coal? Obviously, “easier” is a relative term. If both spouses are working in order to pay multiple tuitions, finding time at night and on weekends to cook and clean can be exhausting and make the approach of Peasach something to dread. If they can afford, why shouldn’t they make it easier on themselves so as to be able to enjoy the Yom Tov.March 23, 2009 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #1008964
lesschumras actualy i use a broom only and use my coal and wood stove im backyard to cook and obviously i kasher my own meats! i dont trust todays hashgochos! but seriously yes if both parents work and they dont want to hire help to clean then making Pesach is definitely exhausting but Pesach is exhausting for everyone. but you say:” If they can afford, why shouldn’t they make it easier on themselves so as to be able to enjoy the Yom Tov.” are they really not going to enjoy Pesach if they stay home?March 23, 2009 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #1008965squeakParticipant
going away for pesach is equal to 1/2 a tuition per person, on average. So if both spouses are working in order to pay tuition then one could quit and then would not be too exhausted to clean for Pesach. The money for tuition would come from what they are not spending at a hotel.March 23, 2009 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #1008966
I remember growing up that my mother never enjoyed the first seder because she was always too tired ( she had to kasher her own meats until the late 60’s ) and my wife is alo very tired for the first seder. She enjoys days 2 thru 8 at home as she takes a good nap the next afternoon. Over the years we’ve taken several shortcuts that makes it less tiring for her. We buy disposable tableware that is indestinguishable from the real thing, but dosn’t have to be shlepped and washed. Ardurous work doesn’t isn’t a prerequisite for enjoying the Yom Tov, but exhaustion can take away from that enjoymentMarch 24, 2009 12:08 am at 12:08 am #1008967
flatbush27: just wondering, why is it your problem if they do something you don’t agree with?March 24, 2009 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1008969
are they really not going to enjoy Pesach if they stay home?
Possibly NOT, if all their friends and family usually also go away. Really, why do you care so much??? It’s like you are actually ANGRY with those people who choose to go away, as if somehow it offends you that they are “abrograting their responsibility” to clean for Pesach. I am staying home, as always, and obviously you are, too. Someone else wants to go away – let him have a lovely zees Pesach with his wife and children.March 24, 2009 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #1008970Avram in MDParticipant
Flatbush27: When the Beis Hamikdash is standing, all of the males must travel to Yerushalayim to make the offerings… so I’m sure there would be a lot of families staying in Yerushalayim to eat their Pesach and Chagigah korbonos on the seder night. Wouldn’t that make travel intrinsic to proper Pesach observance? My family and I prefer to stay at our house for Pesach personally for reasons of peace and expense, but we cannot say that travelling to do the seder elsewhere is not in the “spirit” of things!March 24, 2009 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #1008972
Oomis, the problem is, socialism is in the air. Now there’s always been something appealing about socialism to Jews, and it may have come from the better part of those Jews’ weakened-by-golus neshamos. But OTOH, check out Rav Hirsch on Pirkei Avos, the mishnah about the four types of people (what’s mine is mine, etc.). There is a value in individual accomplishment and ownership. One can’t give unless one has his/her own property. We have to respect that people have their property, and what they do with it. Hopefully something will sink in to the people who are living unhealthily, within or beyond their means, from all the efforts of rabbanim, articles, etc. But the fact is, rich people WILL live way beyond my means, even when living modestly for them. We have to uproot these feelings of class envy.March 24, 2009 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #1008973
oomis1105, it’s envy.March 24, 2009 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #1008974
where have i said i am angry about people going away for Pesach. cantoresq, B”H if i wanted to go away i easily could but feel the hotel environment would be detrimental to my teenagers. I am sure I would enjoy all the shiurim without walking anywhere. but i think Pesach at home is still better for my family. if someone feels his Pesach will be more enjoyable and more spiritual then maybe he should go to a hotel. honestly, i dont know and i dont care. i really dont care what people do for Pesach if it doesnt affect me negatively. maybe its better if more people went away then the lines at the supermarket would be shorter and all the places to go on Chol Ha’moed would be less crowdedMarch 25, 2009 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1008975JotharMember
From another website, meant for bne eretz yisroel:
Jerusalem – Gedolim in Bnei Brak have come out against going to hotels for Pesach. A proclamation signed by Rav Y. B. Wozner, Rav Yehuda Silman, Rav Shimon Baadani, Rav Menachem M. Shafran and other rabbonim, states: Trying to enrich themselves at the expense of the chareidi public, businesses are churning out propaganda, a plethora of articles and brainwashing to turn the holy days of Pesach into a “routine vacation” at various hotels in the Dead Sea and Tiverya.
“We want to elucidate,” say the rabbonim, “that the holy days of Pesach were set aside for one generation to pass on faith in Hashem and His Torah to the next generation. The home atmosphere, in which parents sit together with their dear children, is unique for accomplishing this.”
The proclamation also mentions that newspapers and advertising agencies conceal the fact that every hotel room has television and films. They also cover up the fact that singers perform in the evening, whose negative ramifications are well known from the past. Hotels also have other harmful influences which are detrimental to adults and children alike, and which contravene accepted standards of tznius and kedusha.
The rabbis also state that claims of the level of kashrus in the hotels being akin to the level of kashrus in families’ homes, are not even true during the year round, and all the more so during Pesach. Concerning those who have no choice but to be in a hotel for Pesach and the rest of the year, the rabbis say they should seek the counsel of reliable and responsible rabbonim.
The rabbonim conclude their proclamation by calling on the public to maintain the tradition of previous generations and stringently upholding kashrus, tznius, and kedusha all year round and all the more so on Pesach. They should not be persuaded by people who for the sake of lucre are cavalierly bringing the generation to ruin.March 25, 2009 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1008976
I don’t question the subject of the Kol Horeh, but I do question it’s timing. Why did they wait until 2 weeks before Pesach? Did the hotels suddenly develop kashrus and tznius problems?
Had the Kol Koreh been issued two months ago, guests would have been able to get back their deposits and the caterers could have exercised clauses in their contracts to cancel. They still would have taken a loss, but much less than now.
Will the Rabbonim reimburse the guests, the caterers, the Mashichim and wait staff that will lose their jobs?March 25, 2009 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #1008977
Right, but as I commented there, for this to come out now?!?
For better or worse, there is an economy built around the Pesach hotel business. For the benefit of all involved, for the hoteliers to branch out, and the vacationers to come to terms with making Pesach themselves, this has to come out in IYAR.March 25, 2009 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #1008978
The kol korei ends with an appeal, for each and every person to continue the tradition of earlier generations, and to place an emphasis on kashrus year-round and all the more so on Pesach, as well as adhering to a modest lifestyle.”
i guess the Gedolim and all the rabbonim that go to these hotels disagree…i side with the GedolimMarch 25, 2009 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1008979
flatbush27, do you live in E”Y? Do you follow every kol koreh issued for Jews in E”Y? I never have & probably never will go to a hotel for pesach, but at the same time I don’t think I could conduct my everyday life to the standard expected in chareidi communities in E”Y. (for example, my 10-year-old son enjoys playing basketball or baseball with his friends, yet I understand that in many chareidi communities this is not considered acceptable).
For those who know more about hotels in North America, do most of them have television or movies available? And do female singers appear in these hotels? If female singers do appear, are men allowed to join the audience?March 25, 2009 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #1008980
anonforthis: you are right these kol koreis are talking about E”Y but i dont think it is comparable to americans playing sports while in E”Y the kids dont. it is accepted the kids here in america need a kosher outlet because here there is so much more negative outside ‘not kosher’ outlets that kidss can so easily be sucked into so therefore we need to give them kosher outlets such as sports. hotels just arent neccesary for here or E”Y although i said before you can go all you want because i dont careMarch 25, 2009 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #1008981
and i would say 99.9 percent of hotels here have TV’sMarch 25, 2009 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #1008982moish01Member
and any Motel that doesn’t is probably an outdated piece of junk. don’t go there!March 25, 2009 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #1008983SnowbackMember
You can’t pick and choose which particulars you will listen to the Gedolim. You apply the takonah to prohibit hotels for Pesach from the Gedolim from Eretz Yisroel to the American hotels. Yet, you make an excuse why American children are allowed to play sports.
I don’t know the cheshbon that the Gedolim take in order to make their decisions, but that was obviously catered to the Eretz Yisroel crowd. As far as I know (please inform me if I am incorrect), there aren’t American programs that cater to the non frum crowds, but in Eretz Yisroel there are those that exist.
It isn’t wise to say that hotels aren’t ever necessary. I know of a woman, who always makes Pesach at home, who unfortunately has to go to a hotel due to an serious illness this year.
For someone who doesn’t care, you seem to comment a lot about this topic!
Also, I am going to make the obligatory statement that I personally do not go to a hotel or “mish”.March 25, 2009 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #1008984JayMatt19Participant
Did I miss something? Did the Rabbanim in EY issue a kol koreh against kids playing sports? Or are you trying to compare an issued Kol Koreh vs. an eitza (or hadracha)?March 26, 2009 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #1008986
Thanks for closing the comment thread on the news item on the home page re the kol koreh. I for one am not exactly proud of what I wrote. I have to assume that I don’t know the reality of E”Y, that the gedolim involved were fully aware of the points I brought up, and that the timing was a last ditch effort to sway those people still up in the air.
And please, anyone reading this, don’t disabuse me of these notions. Seriously. Thanks.March 27, 2009 3:13 am at 3:13 am #1008987
snowback: the only reason i say i dont care is so oomis, and anon and lesschumras and all the other left wingers dont attack me for saying the view and opinion held by the Gedolim of E”Y. I am actually disturbed that people go against the Gedolims kol koreis by going to hotels. and if your going to say it only applies to E”Y, your right, but the only reason the Gedolim here wont make one is because no one will listen anyway so why botherMarch 27, 2009 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #1008988
Flatbush27 it has been shown many times that the kol korehs issued by the Gedolim are unreliable. Oftentimes they are issued based on misinformation, at the instigation of people who have agendas to advance and very often signatories to them deny ever authorizing use of their name or admit that they signed on under false pretenses. There is no basis to believe them or to base one’s conduct on them.March 27, 2009 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1008989
flatbush27: so you’re saying you don’t care, but you really do (“I am actually disturbed…”)?March 27, 2009 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1008990
flatbush27, you were criticizing people who go to hotels for pesach before you heard about the kol koreh. So you cannot claim the kol koreh, which was not intended for Americans anyways, is the basis for your complaint. Please explain why oomis, lesschumras, and myself are considered “left-wingers” because we aren’t as eager to judge and criticize others as you are yourself. (especially since neither oomis nor I, as noted above, actually frequent hotels for pesach).March 27, 2009 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #1008992
cantor: im not going to discuss the topic of listening to kol koreis or not. issues at the hotels have always been there and now the Gedolim are just stating them and tryimg to persuade people from going. do you deny the problems of hotels stated in the kol korei?March 27, 2009 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1008993
just to clarify, basically, everyone here agrees that going to a hotel for pesach is not better than staying home in general. some people think that it is not necessarily wrong & depends on the particular situation, and some people think that there is absolutely no good reason for anyone to go & it is their job to make sure people know that.
is that what’s going on here?March 27, 2009 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #1008994
AOB, for some people going to a hotel for pesach is better than staying home; for some the reverse is true. If someone chooses to go away I’ll be dan l’kaf z’chus that he’s determined it’s the best choice for him, considering all the family/ financial/ spiritual/ kashrus issues involved. For myself & my family it wouldn’t be a good choice, which is why I don’t do it. But generally I give people credit for knowing more about their personal situations than I do, and feel that it’s not my job to tell them where to go for pesach. I guess that puts me more in the first group than the second.March 29, 2009 1:13 am at 1:13 am #1008995
cantor: im not going to discuss the topic of listening to kol koreis or not. issues at the hotels have always been there and now the Gedolim are just stating them and tryimg to persuade people from going. do you deny the problems of hotels stated in the kol korei?
Posted 1 day ago #
As a general matter I deny that the problems are significant enough to be a factor in determining whether to go to a hotel for Pesach. I don’t believe that there are more or more significant kashrut issues popping up in a hotel over Pesach, than there are in a kosher hotel setting year round, and I wouldn’t be surprised if that issue was any mroe significant than issues that arise in individiual homes. As to the activities at the hotels, like attracts like. Those who wish to spend their yom tov in the pool or on the basketball court will do so in their homes or will find a hotel where they can. Those who enjoy a Carlebach kumsitz for a Seder will make one at home or find a hotel providing one. Those who wish to hear shiurim or mussar lectures will avail themselves of it in their home communities or find a hotel that provides it.March 29, 2009 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1008996
“snowback: the only reason i say i dont care is so oomis, and anon and lesschumras and all the other left wingers dont attack me for saying the view and opinion held by the Gedolim of E”Y. I am actually disturbed that people go against the Gedolims kol koreis by going to hotels. and if your going to say it only applies to E”Y, your right, but the only reason the Gedolim here wont make one is because no one will listen anyway so why bother”
That “left-winger” zinger is offensive, Flatbush, and I am surprised the mods allowed it to get posted. I don’t believe in attacking. I also do not believe that what Gedolim pasken in E”Y FOR E”Y is necessarily relevant to USA (it might be, but then again, might not, it depends on the situation and the kol koreh). I have great respect for our Gedolim, but I am also not a robot, and I try to understand exactly what they are saying and why, before I make a glatt statement such as you did.
I hold the view that it is none of your, my, or anyone else’s business what another Yid decides he or she needs or wants to do for Pesach. We also do not get to decide for them what makes them feel simchas Yom Tov. Assuming the hotels they go to are under proper hashgocha with a mashgiach temidi, what gives you the right to put them down for going there? I choose not to go, because I enjoy being in my own home and in control of my Pesach. I have had a hard winter, health-wise, and had the opportunity presented itself for me to have a free Pesach away in a hotel, I possibly might have been sorely tempted this year, though ultimately I would have decided to stay home as I always do.
Other women feel greatly overwhelmed by the thought of Pesach preparations, and for them the hotel is mamesh a bracha. You have a single-minded viewpoint that leaves no wiggle room for discussion AND you deride those of us who are able to view the bigger picture. It is because of this type of narrow thinking that many Jews do not appreciate a lifestyle more in concert with your own. That does not make them left-wingers (a connotation which is really VERY insulting, btw, as we are all frum people), it makes them people who are less judgmental. I have to say I am surprised at the increasingly abrasive tenor of your posts.March 31, 2009 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #1008997
oomis: sorry about that comment of left wing. i stated before i think its ok for some people to go away. im not banning hotels to everyone. i think thats open minded.April 1, 2009 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #1008998
flatbush27, they should put a picure of you in the dictionary next to the entries fo “open minded” and “tolerant.”April 1, 2009 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1008999
flatbush27, I am curious, do you eat gebrokts on Pesach?April 1, 2009 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #1009000
cantor: i know right! webster just called me! i declined graciously though because of tznius issues!April 1, 2009 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #1009001
yes but gebrokts is only a minhag so im not sure where your going with this although if you know anything about matza you could only eat gebroks with 18 minute shmura matza and not the stuff they sell in wauldbaums or Pathmark.April 1, 2009 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #1009002
that sounded like i implied you dont know anything about matza. i did not mean it to come out like thatApril 1, 2009 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1009003
Actually, I was going to go somewhere if you didn’t eat gebrokts. 🙂
as for your statement about Pathmark or regular shmura, I believe you are incorrect. All matzahs that we eat (ashkenazim, thin) can’t become chametz. The gemarah says that matzah can’t become chametz.
I’m not sure what you think the difference is between shmura and non-shmura matzah with the metzius of gebrokts. The only difference is the level of shmira.April 1, 2009 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #1009004
could be its only my minhag but I heard that they rely on bishul for these matzas and then you cant have bishul twice by gebrokkzing. i dont think what i just said makes sense. honestly i really dont remeber the reason. il try to look it up and if anyone heard anything about this it would be helpfulApril 1, 2009 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #1009005
The matzahs are made the same way, they just have different levels of shmirah.
BTW, all OU matzahs are made l’shem mitzvahs matzah, while not being full shmurah.
(In a showdown, one might be more important than the other, especially since it might technically be shmurah)April 19, 2009 7:59 am at 7:59 am #1009007JaxMember
my pesach at home was fantastic!
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