PHOTO: Orthodox Jewish Man Covers Himself In Plastic Bag On Plane

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  • #608949

    Yenta
    Participant
    #945769

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Supposedly he is following a Tshuva of Rav Elyshiv that a Cohen cannot fly over a cemetary and the only way around it is to make a personal Ohel

    #945770

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I believe that ZD is correct.

    #945771

    Ferd
    Participant

    zahavasdad makes things up once again.

    #945772

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Ferd are you questioning a Psak of Rav Elyshiv?

    #945773

    Halachically speaking, does airspace have a limit upward?

    #945774

    Ferd
    Participant

    First of all, please tell me where I can find this Psak from Rav Elyashiv. I have all 4 chalokim of Kovetz Teshuvos, and never saw this in my life. So let’s start with this: SHOW US THE PSAK.

    Second of all, I am questioning how you can say he was “supposedly” doing something. Did you speak to this person? Were you there?

    No, and No.

    Once again, zahavasdad makes things up.

    #945775

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    SF, no.

    I know of some kohanim who do this (although I never specifically heard of this as a psak from R’ Elyashiv, that doesn’t mean it wasn’t).

    #945776

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Concerning the issur for a kohen to fly over a cemetary:

    http://www.dailyhalacha.com/Display.asp?ClipDate=11/7/2005

    And Ferd, ZD wrote “supposedly”, not that he saw a teshuvah inside. I saw some website quoting Haaretz saying that R’ Elyashiv gave this eitzah. So if it was made up, it wasn’t made up by ZD.

    I think it’s likely true.

    #945777

    pou_bear
    Member

    No matter what reason he had, in my humble opinion this is a CHILUL HASHEM and no I am not worried what the goyim think. If I was on an airplane only with religious Jews I would still very much be turned off by this mans actions.

    #945778

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Pou_bear, how do you define chillul Hashem? Anything which makes you feel uncomfortable?

    #945779

    just my hapence
    Participant

    Ferd – zdad isn’t making it up, my sister-in-law’s brother is the one who asked R’ Elyashiv the sheilo.

    #945780

    DaasYochid- Just a question then: When space travel becomes commonplace, will it be assur for Kohanim to partake because inevitably they will be over a cemetery at some point?

    #945781

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    SF, maybe their space suits will be plastic baggies 😉 .

    I don’t know the geometry of it; is it indeed likely that someone a light year away is directly above a cemetary? I would think not.

    #945782

    completely wrong of this guy! Is he trying to put more antisemitism in this world?!?!

    #945783

    WIY
    Member

    iluvbeingjewish

    “completely wrong of this guy! Is he trying to put more antisemitism in this world?!?!”

    No, the person who took the picture and spread it is.

    #945784

    DaasYochid- Not for a long time, but passing over a cemetery for a split second is very likely.

    #945785

    Sam2
    Participant

    SF: The Lashon of the Mishnah is “Ad Larakia”.

    Ferd: Kovetz T’shuvos was not published by R’ Elyashiv and is far from all of his P’sakim.

    #945786

    squeak
    Participant

    How is a plastic bag a tefach challal in any case? Could a cohen even get away with doing this? A proper box could do the trick but not a bag. I dont believe this picture is real anyway.

    #945787

    Imanonov
    Participant

    The Israeli Yated (quoted on Kikar Hashabbat)tells the background to the story. It involved two people from Bne Brak who traveled to London shortly before Pesach to find support for their Kolel. The Thursday before Pesach they traveled back but their flight was diverted to Cyprus as the airspace over Israel was closed due to the departure of President Obama. They had to spend Shabbos in Cyprus and wanted to take the Motzoi shabbos flight back home. However that flight flies over a Jewish cemetery in Gush Dan and, as one of them is a Kohen, they contacted Rav Zilverstein shlitoh, son-in-law of Rav Eliashiv ztsl for advice.It was he who advised him to envelop himself in a plastic bag whilst the plane is over the cemetery, creating a “tzomid posil”.

    As such this person is a Tzaddik for putting himself in such an embarrassing situation for the sake of Halocho. At the same time it is definitely not a Chilul HaShem, because following Halocho is never a Chilul, but rather a Kiddush, HaShem. If you feel uncomfortable with that, you are suffering from a Golus mentality and need to improve your hashkofos (and knowledge of Halocho).

    #945788

    daniela
    Member

    I think zahavasdad et al. are correct and the same thing is written on a kikar shabat article, that the passenger being a Cohen is the reason, the plane route was above Gush Dan cemetery, and that Rabbi Elyashiv paskened the plastic bag is OK. You can look up the article on kikarhashabat.

    I heard that problems with cemeteries depend on the height and I recall being told it is a possible problem only with hot-air balloons and other low altitude sports, or, for commercial flights, only close to takeoff and landing, which looks like was the case here.

    #945789

    loca
    Member

    I wonder if he got hot under there…

    #945790

    yytz
    Participant

    Imanonov: How do you know it’s really halacha and not a chumra or an unnecessarily strict interpretation of halacha rejected by most poskim? Just because something is super machmir doesn’t mean it’s actually correct.

    #945791

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    Isn’t it dangerous to be in a plastic bag on an airplane? What if chas v’shalom there is some mishap, an accident or plane malfunction and you need to follow the instructions quickly?

    I don’t know who took the picture of him but it wasn’t nice because now people are making fun.

    #945792

    shmulik1
    Member

    yytz

    you sound quite interesting, Imanonov is not selling some halacha taken out of his stomach, he quoted a well known psak of rav eliashiv zt”l that is going on for years already so what’s your problem?

    Yeridas hadores:

    since when do you have to prove on a psak that it’s not a chumrah i should hope that when you hear a chumrah you should then check if it’s not much more then a chumrah but a clear psak haloche.

    #945793

    SpiderJerusalem
    Participant

    The plastic offers a degree of halachic protection that the airtight metal tube doesn’t. How does that work? Who decided that metal is an improper barrier? A wooden wall is ok, a cement wall is ok, but a steel wall isn’t? Do the Gedolim have a degree in chemistry?

    #945794

    rebdoniel
    Member

    The airplane is an ohel zaruk, which makes it highly problematic to travel for kohanim. I see no grounds for leniency here.

    #945795

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Ferd: Did you read all four volumes? If so, I’m very impressed.

    #945796

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Spider Jerusalem, you don’t understand the dinim of tum’ah, so you are making up your own distinctions and then pointing out how silly they sound, and then blaming it on the gedolim’s lack of a degree in chemistry.

    #945797

    Sam2
    Participant

    SJ: Learn Mishnayos Taharos (to start) and then ask questions.

    Imanonov: Before telling others to expand their knowledge of Halachah, you might want to expand your own. Tzamid Pasil is only Shayach by a Kli Cheres.

    I agree with Rebdoniel, though. I don’t see how this plastic bag helps. It’s also an Ohel Zaruk. And if you claim that it’s not Zaruk/Zaruk is Muttar in such a case, the plane itself should count. (Okay, so there’s one Tzad gained by using the plastic, but I highly doubt that gaining this Tzad according to some Shittos is worth the fact that it makes Halachah look like Kucha V’hitula.)

    Edit: I just looked at the picture. There’s no Poseach Tefach in that bag. It cannot be to avoid any Tumah because being in that bag does absolutely nothing. There’s nothing Halachic about what he did. Either it was a mistake on this guy’s part in thinking that it helped or he’s just a nut.

    #945798

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, don’t blame Imanonov, he merely translated from kikarshabbat.

    #945799

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Rd, are you saying there are no grounds for leniency even with the bag?

    #945800

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There has to be a hole in that bag otherwise someone could die

    I am sure it has to be a decent hole otherwise there isnt enough air

    Perhaps that hole would make the Plastic bag not work anyway

    #945801

    yytz
    Participant

    Shmulik: Not everyone holds by rumors of what Rav Elyashiv paskened. Did he actually write down this psak? Or do we hear it second or third hand? Maybe one of his relatives expressed this opinion, but he has at least 1000 living descendents at this point, and they can’t all be gedolim.

    #945802

    yytz
    Participant

    Does everyone hold that tumah ascends for thousands of feet? Even if they do, I find it hard to believe no major poskim would find grounds for leniency when we’re talking about a kohen flying through a spiral of tumah for a split second thousands of feet above the surface of the earth. Think of the 1/60th bitul rule in kashrus.

    #945803

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yytz, you are making up your own halachos.

    #945804

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: I’m saying that. The bag is irrelevant and nonsensical. Reread my last post.

    Yytz: Bitul has nothing to do with this, and Tumah is Tumah. I know Rav Schachter quotes a random T’shuvah that above the clouds is Muttar because Tumah only goes until the Rakia, and not above. But no one (not even Rav Schachter) actually holds like that.

    Just to be clear, there are ways and reasons to be Meikil by an airplane (especially over a non-Jewish cemetery). This plastic bag cannot be one of them.

    #945805

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY: I’m saying that. The bag is irrelevant and nonsensical. Reread my last post.

    Yes, I know you’re saying that, and you implied the RD was saying that as well, but I don’t think he was.

    (especially over a non-Jewish cemetery)

    The cemetery in this story was Jewish.

    #945806

    rebdoniel
    Member

    I don’t see what this bag would accomplish al pi halakha.

    Ironically, the issue came up recently in the daf on Berachos 19 and Eruvin 31.

    A proposal to have kohanim hermetically seal themselves was proposed in the past, but rejected, IIRC.

    I don’t see how a bag can eliminate the issues with tuma involved.

    #945807

    147
    Participant

    Boruch Shelo Ossani Kohen.

    Meanwhile I am Don this man leChaf Zechus that he is doing it for medical reasons because he has an immune defficiency. ….. But how does he lay Tefillin on the aeroplane with this plastic covering?

    #945808

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    147, he’s in the bag for a very short amount of time.

    #945809

    daniela
    Member

    I think the bag had no hole. Also, flight attendants can help witn hermetically sealing (they have those devices that melt plastic and that some of us have in the kitchen). One can stay in such a sealed bag without much discomfort, let alone danger, for a good amount of minutes, well over the 2-3 minutes I am told they do. Someone I know saw that about ten years ago. I wonder if it’s unusual that Israeli air traffic routes a plane over the cemetery.

    yytz is that what they teach in the organic macrobiotic community? That tumah is nullified in 60? Please, share with us the name of the person who suggested such a “brilliant” solution, is he the one you have already repeatedly mentioned here?

    #945811

    yytz
    Participant

    Daniela: Eh, I don’t eat macrobiotic, but nice attempt at a personal attack. If you read what I wrote carefully, you’ll see that I didn’t say that bitul applies to tumah.

    I just meant to observe that there are ways to be lenient in various areas of halacha — and I’d be very surprised if most poskim side with the notion that accidentally being for a split second thousands of feet above a cemetery is absolutely forbidden for kohanim.

    In fact, if this were really an accepted ruling, we’d see kohanim in plastic bags (or refusing to fly at all) all the time! Yet there are only a handful of kohanim who have ever done this.

    #945812

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yytz, it was a big problem, but the routes were changed to accommodate kohanim. This was an unusual situation.

    #945813

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    At one point does someone become a Chassid Shoteh?

    #945814

    yytz
    Participant

    DaasYochid, I’m sure that’s not the only cemetery near an airport frequently used by frum Jews. Also, are you saying the photograph is from before the situation was resolved? How do you know? Why would the photograph be coming out now, then?

    #945815

    SpiderJerusalem
    Participant

    There is little that justifies this kind of insanity. If tumah is only up, how far up? The stratosphere? The ionosphere? The magnetosphere? Do Kohanim astronauts have to be sure they don’t orbit over a cemetary? What if a Kohein lands on the moon, does it travel there, or does he just have to worry about lunar cemetaries?

    I get that driving a car through a cemetary isn’t okay because it’s not a fixed vessel but the airplane is tens of thousands of feet up. That’s miles away. On the ground, that kind of distance might put you outside of city limits, never mind outside cemetary grounds. I don’t buy Kanievsky’s psak at all, it’s stringent for the sake of being stringent. Not being a Kohein, I’ll never have to worry about it personally but it’s just insane.

    #945816

    pou_bear
    Member

    DaasYochid – I said turned off. The issur of creating a chillul Hashem is not only amongst non-Jews , its amongst your fellow brethren as well. The reason why I am saying this is because many times we have to do things that non-jews think are completely absurd and look down at us for(i.e.bris mila, davening in public) but in this case , it goes both ways and is obviously not halacha.If one wants to be machmir – let them do it in their own dalid amos.

    #945817

    daniela
    Member

    YYtz you seem oblivious to the fact that this IS the leniency a genial posek came up with. A huge leniency that not everyone accepts, and which incidentally I believe to be valid only for pressurized aircrafts. On top of that you and other posters are trying to paint us as fools via reductio ad absurdum. Tumah is definitely a problem for cohanim at “thousands of feets” or a few hundred meters. It is not a problem at jets’ cruise altitude, on spacecrafts, or with the moon.

    True, I take everything you write with many grains of salt. I don’t mind if you eat macrobiotic, this is a personal preference. I have issues about people advising (a very young person) before thinking twice. Some speak very well about that place and some others did not enjoy it (to use an euphemism); it is a controversial place for a girl or woman to be, and one should at least recommend to hear many opinions.

    #945818

    daniela
    Member

    It is not about being machmir. It is a leniency and a big one.

    To those who make jokes about the moon: perhaps you are unaware there are already lunar cemeteries, and a Jew is there. His name is Gene Shoemaker. You can look it up.

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